Are Hags nothing more then a combination of all the wicked and evil traits that women posses or the like?
first off
classic witch stereotype
second
while depicted as female and often preffering to be treated as such hags, are deceptive beings capable of shape shifting so gender is a somewhat odd concept
and 3rd you do know what the word hag means right?
Are Hags nothing more then a combination of all the wicked and evil traits that women posses or the like?
3rd you do know what the word hag means right?
even wikipedia acknowledges this is the case. while i disagree strongly with heavily gendered shit in general (okay fr why is every demon male barring the sexually attractive ones cmon femcels exist too) this isnt it
this is like asking "why are draugar always undead?" well because if they werent dead they wouldnt be draugar.
Coincidentally I was thinking a lot about hags in prepping a game arc yesterday. I haven't thought a lot about them or really ever used them but these are some of that brainstorm put into shape to answer the OP's question.
The simple answer as already mentioned is because Hags, and the obviously misogynistic tropes contained within the traditional depiction of the hag, are not just something D&D made up and the monster reflects the actual myths. I'm sure some sort of cultural anthropologist could and likely has rendered a monograph on what hag and hag-like folklore and myth say about the misogyny (read: general existential fears about life and death and things which can not be tamed by masculinist "ordering" so let's just blame all that on "woman", no one said myth making was sensitive or even smart) within the culture hosting the myth. I'm not really well read on D&D Feywild and Fey lore, but I'm guessing the bulk of it likely glosses over the implicit misogyny or does something to give "hag culture" some more depth than "evil woman tropes". Like a lot of monsters, the DM has a lot of space to negotiate in how they render hags though. I don't think it explicitly addresses the hags' problematic myth origins confronting more modern sensibilities but this site had a pretty good article on fleshing out Hags not to long ago.
Hags aren't unique in the D&D Monsterscape, look at the Medusa. I think the lamia in prior editions was exclusively female assumed, but it looks like the present edition goes for a neutral or a-gender interpretation.
Where I'm seating Hags was inspired by the opening set piece to "Memory: the Origins of Alien" which in turn drew from some Greek myths where the (female located) Furies' had line "the rank air tastes of human blood". There's a lot of "messiness" to the creation of life (centered around and some critics would say isolated to the mother) and the loss of that life in death (where reaching or crying for a mother is common). And by that messiness I'm talking the actual fluids, verities of excrements, tissue tearing and break downs and such that human medicine in its wisdom tries to "clean away" from the experience of life and death (some say privacy and dignity are concepts made up to free up systems from what would otherwise by human obligations). Hags come from all that "humans" would prefer was cleaned off of life and death, and since that's their nature, their relationship with "civilization" is confrontational (this plays well into the Classic OD&D mapping of law and chaos oppositions). These cast off, rejected aspects are embraced in some iterations of feminist philosophy (look into the ideas of the abject and why some feminist scholars love monster stories), and has been used to push art from Francis Bacon, H.R. Gieger (yes, I'm a big Alien guy) and Georia O'Keefe to name drop some recognizable artists. What I'm saying is, like almost everything in D&D some of the lore aspects that seem problematic, like all things problematic, can be confronted and literally played with in game, if you want. It's what you bring to the table.
To the comment on female/woman demons, and I'm guessing all fiends. I'm not sure if that's entirely true about female oriented fiends being universally front loaded with sexuality, but that's sort of the other side of the coin of "female monsters" (and also frankly a trope from D&D inspiration in Rock n' Roll graphics and Tattoo art for decades). I like that in actual rules the incubus/succubus is actually fluidly sexed and performs in incarnations catering to the victim's fantasy. And while the Monster Manual Art is sorta "Crossfit Bombshell" with this one, in my game the the furies Erinyes, while they can present femme they lean mostly butch. I mean they're Hell's secret police/internal affairs so they're body type conveys power, and workhorse power, the sorts that may have to tackle and shackle a Pit Fiend after all. They're definitely not in the Hells for eye candy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Are Hags nothing more then a combination of all the wicked and evil traits that women posses or the like?
3rd you do know what the word hag means right?
even wikipedia acknowledges this is the case. while i disagree strongly with heavily gendered shit in general (okay fr why is every demon male barring the sexually attractive ones cmon femcels exist too) this isnt it
this is like asking "why are draugar always undead?" well because if they werent dead they wouldnt be draugar.
That's definitely not true, unless you think Zuggtmoy is sexually attractive. As written, no type of demon (besides maybe mariliths) have a set gender, and a lot of them are genderless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Are Hags nothing more then a combination of all the wicked and evil traits that women posses or the like?
3rd you do know what the word hag means right?
even wikipedia acknowledges this is the case. while i disagree strongly with heavily gendered shit in general (okay fr why is every demon male barring the sexually attractive ones cmon femcels exist too) this isnt it
this is like asking "why are draugar always undead?" well because if they werent dead they wouldnt be draugar.
That's definitely not true, unless you think Zuggtmoy is sexually attractive. As written, no type of demon (besides maybe mariliths) have a set gender, and a lot of them are genderless.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
Are Hags nothing more then a combination of all the wicked and evil traits that women posses or the like?
3rd you do know what the word hag means right?
even wikipedia acknowledges this is the case. while i disagree strongly with heavily gendered shit in general (okay fr why is every demon male barring the sexually attractive ones cmon femcels exist too) this isnt it
this is like asking "why are draugar always undead?" well because if they werent dead they wouldnt be draugar.
That's definitely not true, unless you think Zuggtmoy is sexually attractive. As written, no type of demon (besides maybe mariliths) have a set gender, and a lot of them are genderless.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bardof the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules.Sig.Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
People being able to read your argument does help, though. And demon lords are nothing like gods.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bardof the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules.Sig.Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
FWIW calling Graz'zt "basically the god of being sexually attractive" I think was fine as intended and any brow beating over being technically incorrect isn't really necessary. There's correcting constructively and then there's arguing on the internet tropes.
I think stuffattack... was likely talking about fiends more generally rather than "true" demons (so things that play in various lower planes like Succubi, the rendering of the Erinyes devil, probably somewhere in official and fan art some very comely female Cambion renderings, though again those aren't exclusively male or female). Many players not invested in playing the lower planes in line with lore blur it all (and really if your PCs aren't really plane hoppers or invested in the cosmology, most prime material based entities would also likely not fully see the distinction. So maybe let's give it a slide.
Maybe to redirect. Again, I've been thinking on hags a bit. One thing I'm curious about is the present UA forthcoming official Hexblood potential to become a Hag (which I presume would follow the "probably becomes a DM NPC route like full blown vampires). It seems there's a lot of general "dark fey" potential in the Hexblood broadly and there's nothing about the Hexblood saying it needs to present any sort of sex/gender (in line with PHB ruling on that in character generation). It does mention the potential for Hexblood to transform into Hags, so I guess at that point they'd take on the female appearance? I mean I can see that as a possibility, but I'm wondering if there's any myth for an andro-presenting Hag equivalent.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
Less so for demon lords.
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
Nope. I've seen an eleventh level party kill Yeenoghu in one round. Only through demonic amulets are demon lords immortal.
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
Less so for demon lords.
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
Nope. I've seen an eleventh level party kill Yeenoghu in one round. Only through demonic amulets are demon lords immortal.
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
Only Lolth, actually.
actually tiamat,oblex,orcus have been done as gods before (im not talking lore their mostly im talking past editions) and tharizidun has been a demon lord before
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
Less so for demon lords.
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
Nope. I've seen an eleventh level party kill Yeenoghu in one round. Only through demonic amulets are demon lords immortal.
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
Less so for demon lords.
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
Nope. I've seen an eleventh level party kill Yeenoghu in one round. Only through demonic amulets are demon lords immortal.
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
Less so for demon lords.
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
Nope. I've seen an eleventh level party kill Yeenoghu in one round. Only through demonic amulets are demon lords immortal.
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
Only Lolth, actually.
actually tiamat,oblex,orcus have been done as gods before (im not talking lore their mostly im talking past editions) and tharizidun has been a demon lord before
Tiamat's weird in FR. I believe Orcus was a god in 4e, which I dislike immensely, and Oblex's deityhood is also weird. Tharizdun was an Elder Evil or god in any editions I acknowledge the existence of.
Are Hags nothing more then a combination of all the wicked and evil traits that women posses or the like?
first off
classic witch stereotype
second
while depicted as female and often preffering to be treated as such hags, are deceptive beings capable of shape shifting so gender is a somewhat odd concept
and 3rd you do know what the word hag means right?
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
even wikipedia acknowledges this is the case. while i disagree strongly with heavily gendered shit in general (okay fr why is every demon male barring the sexually attractive ones cmon femcels exist too) this isnt it
this is like asking "why are draugar always undead?" well because if they werent dead they wouldnt be draugar.
"h"
Coincidentally I was thinking a lot about hags in prepping a game arc yesterday. I haven't thought a lot about them or really ever used them but these are some of that brainstorm put into shape to answer the OP's question.
The simple answer as already mentioned is because Hags, and the obviously misogynistic tropes contained within the traditional depiction of the hag, are not just something D&D made up and the monster reflects the actual myths. I'm sure some sort of cultural anthropologist could and likely has rendered a monograph on what hag and hag-like folklore and myth say about the misogyny (read: general existential fears about life and death and things which can not be tamed by masculinist "ordering" so let's just blame all that on "woman", no one said myth making was sensitive or even smart) within the culture hosting the myth. I'm not really well read on D&D Feywild and Fey lore, but I'm guessing the bulk of it likely glosses over the implicit misogyny or does something to give "hag culture" some more depth than "evil woman tropes". Like a lot of monsters, the DM has a lot of space to negotiate in how they render hags though. I don't think it explicitly addresses the hags' problematic myth origins confronting more modern sensibilities but this site had a pretty good article on fleshing out Hags not to long ago.
Hags aren't unique in the D&D Monsterscape, look at the Medusa. I think the lamia in prior editions was exclusively female assumed, but it looks like the present edition goes for a neutral or a-gender interpretation.
Where I'm seating Hags was inspired by the opening set piece to "Memory: the Origins of Alien" which in turn drew from some Greek myths where the (female located) Furies' had line "the rank air tastes of human blood". There's a lot of "messiness" to the creation of life (centered around and some critics would say isolated to the mother) and the loss of that life in death (where reaching or crying for a mother is common). And by that messiness I'm talking the actual fluids, verities of excrements, tissue tearing and break downs and such that human medicine in its wisdom tries to "clean away" from the experience of life and death (some say privacy and dignity are concepts made up to free up systems from what would otherwise by human obligations). Hags come from all that "humans" would prefer was cleaned off of life and death, and since that's their nature, their relationship with "civilization" is confrontational (this plays well into the Classic OD&D mapping of law and chaos oppositions). These cast off, rejected aspects are embraced in some iterations of feminist philosophy (look into the ideas of the abject and why some feminist scholars love monster stories), and has been used to push art from Francis Bacon, H.R. Gieger (yes, I'm a big Alien guy) and Georia O'Keefe to name drop some recognizable artists. What I'm saying is, like almost everything in D&D some of the lore aspects that seem problematic, like all things problematic, can be confronted and literally played with in game, if you want. It's what you bring to the table.
To the comment on female/woman demons, and I'm guessing all fiends. I'm not sure if that's entirely true about female oriented fiends being universally front loaded with sexuality, but that's sort of the other side of the coin of "female monsters" (and also frankly a trope from D&D inspiration in Rock n' Roll graphics and Tattoo art for decades). I like that in actual rules the incubus/succubus is actually fluidly sexed and performs in incarnations catering to the victim's fantasy. And while the Monster Manual Art is sorta "Crossfit Bombshell" with this one, in my game the the
furiesErinyes, while they can present femme they lean mostly butch. I mean they're Hell's secret police/internal affairs so they're body type conveys power, and workhorse power, the sorts that may have to tackle and shackle a Pit Fiend after all. They're definitely not in the Hells for eye candy.Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
That's definitely not true, unless you think Zuggtmoy is sexually attractive. As written, no type of demon (besides maybe mariliths) have a set gender, and a lot of them are genderless.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
oh and also grattz demon lord of lust (so basically the god of being sexually attractive) is male
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
First of all, Graz'zt is a demon lord, not a god. Second of all, that doesn't mean anything at all.
The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bard of the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules. Sig. Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
the only functional difference between the two is domain size.for the larger world true but for the corporate show of wotc and to the more lore centric bits of the community (such as op or others) this makes a massive and obvious difference.
just because you have better grammar does not mean you win internet fights,after all wit lies in meaning not in the arrangment of characters that loosely represent said meaning.
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
People being able to read your argument does help, though. And demon lords are nothing like gods.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
That's exactly like saying liches are the same thing as solars because of their CR.
The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bard of the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules. Sig. Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
So, thread's still about Hags, right?
FWIW calling Graz'zt "basically the god of being sexually attractive" I think was fine as intended and any brow beating over being technically incorrect isn't really necessary. There's correcting constructively and then there's arguing on the internet tropes.
I think stuffattack... was likely talking about fiends more generally rather than "true" demons (so things that play in various lower planes like Succubi, the rendering of the Erinyes devil, probably somewhere in official and fan art some very comely female Cambion renderings, though again those aren't exclusively male or female). Many players not invested in playing the lower planes in line with lore blur it all (and really if your PCs aren't really plane hoppers or invested in the cosmology, most prime material based entities would also likely not fully see the distinction. So maybe let's give it a slide.
Maybe to redirect. Again, I've been thinking on hags a bit. One thing I'm curious about is the present UA forthcoming official Hexblood potential to become a Hag (which I presume would follow the "probably becomes a DM NPC route like full blown vampires). It seems there's a lot of general "dark fey" potential in the Hexblood broadly and there's nothing about the Hexblood saying it needs to present any sort of sex/gender (in line with PHB ruling on that in character generation). It does mention the potential for Hexblood to transform into Hags, so I guess at that point they'd take on the female appearance? I mean I can see that as a possibility, but I'm wondering if there's any myth for an andro-presenting Hag equivalent.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Misogyny.
Patriarchal culture values women only for their ability to procreate. The very idea of a woman existing past that capability is horrifying to it.
the following text is a unrelated rant disregard if you dont care
the similarites are many between gods and demon lords
.posses the ability to give a follower great power up to a level 20 character
.capable of creating incredibly powerful artifacts
.can warp reality as they wish within their domain especially that which relates to their portfollio
.can control and block spell effects in their domain
.can create planar portals
.are night unkillable
.gain this power from on unkown or variable source (often other gods or worship)
and this list goes on for a while
and almost every well known demon lord has been a god at some point in dnd history
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
Less so for demon lords.
Nope. I've seen an eleventh level party kill Yeenoghu in one round. Only through demonic amulets are demon lords immortal.
Only Lolth, actually.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
actually tiamat,oblex,orcus have been done as gods before (im not talking lore their mostly im talking past editions) and tharizidun has been a demon lord before
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
Asmodeus
"h"
thats a devil
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
Tiamat's weird in FR. I believe Orcus was a god in 4e, which I dislike immensely, and Oblex's deityhood is also weird. Tharizdun was an Elder Evil or god in any editions I acknowledge the existence of.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Asmodeus is an archdevil.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
details, details.
"h"