I’m looking at Fog Cloud and Darkness. Which one do you think is better and why please? I’m reading them and I’m torn, they both have advantages and disadvantages. Thanks!
I don't think either of them are a better or worse, it depends on the situation.
Both are defeated by Blindsense/Tremorsense/etc...
Fog Cloud is only a lvl 1 spells Fog Cloud is hard countered by 10 mph wind. Fog Cloud has a 20' radius, and goes up 20' per spell level used. A 9th lvl Fog Cloud is a 180' radius.
Darkness is a lvl 2 spells Darkness is hard countered by Daylight (a lvl 3) Darkness has a 15' radius, and only that. Darkness allows those with Dark Sight to see, this can be a pro and a con.
It depends on what you want to do with them, if you and/or your party does not have Devil's Sight I think Fog Cloud is better. It's a cheaper spell, has a larger radius, and works on Devils.
I personally like to use Minor Illusion to make fog. It can't be interacted with, so you can't just walk into it to get rid of it. The target has to spend an Action Investigate vs my spell DC. It's not perfect, but I can see through it automagically.
Honestly my favorite use for this is to break LOS against ranged opponents.
I'm inclined to agree with FullMetalBunny. I do have an additional caveats to point out: darkness can be upcast as a third level spell to prevent it from being dispelled by daylight while fog cloud can be dispersed with a gust of wind no matter at what level the fog cloud is cast.
Side note: JC disagrees that minor illusion can be used to make fog for what it's worth (which may not be much depending on your game).
Darkness can't be upcasted to not be dispelled by Daylight.
Upcasting Darkness will only protect your from Counterspell and Dispel Magic. I'll post citation later... it's late.
That's a weird ruling my JC on minor illusion. There is *nothing* in the spell that says you can't mage a cubes of black darkness, fog, or whatever illusion you desire.
Darkness has a shorter duration but is tactically more flexible. Fogcloud is only cast on a location, Darkness can be cast on an object. said object can be moved or thrown. Is it a typo that Darkvision can see through darkness? It reads that Darkvision CANNOT.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"real life is a super high CR."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Darkness can be upcast to prevent dispelling by daylight, but not illumination by daylight. It must be upcast to at least 4th level not 3rd like I wrote previously.
From PHB pg. 201, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting."
From daylight, "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled."
Since a darkness cast with a 4th level slot is a 4th level spell, it will not be dispelled by daylight.
This is not as useful as I implied above due to the illumination bit. Fun fact though: due to similar wording in darkness, a 3rd level continual flame cannot be dispelled by darkness, but will instead illuminate it.
This is not as useful as I implied above due to the illumination bit. Fun fact though: due to similar wording in darkness, a 3rd level continual flame cannot be dispelled by darkness, but will instead illuminate it.
I wouldn't rule that way. It says it wouldn't dispel it, not that it would illuminate the area. A real torch would still create light, it just wouldn't be seen. The continual flame would still exist, just not be seen.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Only non-magical light cannot illuminate darkness. Continual flame is magical light. If continual flame is not dispelled by darkness then continual flame will illuminate the darkness.
pwhimp is correct. Dim light or bright light illuminates darkness. The Darkness spell makes an exception for nonmagical light. Therefore magical light still works, as long as it doesn't get dispelled by the Darkness spell.
That's a weird ruling my JC on minor illusion. There is *nothing* in the spell that says you can't mage a cubes of black darkness, fog, or whatever illusion you desire.
Minor Illusion creates a sound or an image of an object. The DMG defines an object as "a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone" (chapter 8, Running the Game). Liquids and gases aren't discrete.
Contrast with Silent Image which lets you create "the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon".
Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. You've pointed out things that I missed about both spells and made picking only one harder in the process.
pwhimp is correct. Dim light or bright light illuminates darkness. The Darkness spell makes an exception for nonmagical light. Therefore magical light still works, as long as it doesn't get dispelled by the Darkness spell.
That's a weird ruling my JC on minor illusion. There is *nothing* in the spell that says you can't mage a cubes of black darkness, fog, or whatever illusion you desire.
Minor Illusion creates a sound or an image of an object. The DMG defines an object as "a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone" (chapter 8, Running the Game). Liquids and gases aren't discrete.
Contrast with Silent Image which lets you create "the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon".
You can still make an object (say, a wall) that blocks LoS, though, to a similar effect. You can even make it so it surrounds you (if you're over 5' tall, you might need to hunch over a bit), to achieve the same effect as a "block of fog", or close enough.
Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. You've pointed out things that I missed about both spells and made picking only one harder in the process.
Do any of the other players use the Light cantrip? If so, that could make your decision easier. Having to keep Darkness at least 40 feet away from your friends' light sources makes it very difficult to use.
Isn't that at least 15' away because Darkness has a 15' radius?
Except in combat where you can't casually spend an action to cast Light, cantrips are free so re-casting it is just assumed. In combat not having a light source is a disaster though!
Isn't that at least 15' away because Darkness has a 15' radius?
The total radius for Light is 40 feet. Darkness will dispel light-producing spells if there's any overlap between them. That means anyone holding an object affected by Light needs to be at least 40 feet away from the sphere of Darkness, or 55 feet away from the point of origin.
You can still make an object (say, a wall) that blocks LoS, though, to a similar effect. You can even make it so it surrounds you (if you're over 5' tall, you might need to hunch over a bit), to achieve the same effect as a "block of fog", or close enough.
The problem with an object like a wall is that it's easily examined by interaction and that is why one would want a fog cloud. An arrow passing through a wall immediately identifies it as an illusion, but not so much with a fog cloud. I'm having trouble thinking of an "object" (perhaps solid object considering JC's ruling) that could accomplish the same effect.
Edit: Given the dictionary definition of object, a material thing that can be seen and touched, I now think it's impossible to make an illusion of an object that avoids easy examination and obscures vision.
Isn't that at least 15' away because Darkness has a 15' radius?
The total radius for Light is 40 feet. Darkness will dispel light-producing spells if there's any overlap between them. That means anyone holding an object affected by Light needs to be at least 40 feet away from the sphere of Darkness, or 55 feet away from the point of origin.
Surely it just darkens the part of the light it overlaps with, not the entirety of the light.
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Only non-magical light cannot illuminate darkness. Continual flame is magical light. If continual flame is not dispelled by darkness then continual flame will illuminate the darkness.
"If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled." PHB p. 230
Just to recap, you need a 3rd lvl light spell or other feature (e.g. warlock eldritch invocation Devil's Sight, Item: Gem of Seeing, etc)
I hope this helped.
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I’m looking at Fog Cloud and Darkness. Which one do you think is better and why please? I’m reading them and I’m torn, they both have advantages and disadvantages. Thanks!
Professional computer geek
I don't think either of them are a better or worse, it depends on the situation.
Both are defeated by Blindsense/Tremorsense/etc...
Fog Cloud is only a lvl 1 spells
Fog Cloud is hard countered by 10 mph wind.
Fog Cloud has a 20' radius, and goes up 20' per spell level used. A 9th lvl Fog Cloud is a 180' radius.
Darkness is a lvl 2 spells
Darkness is hard countered by Daylight (a lvl 3)
Darkness has a 15' radius, and only that.
Darkness allows those with Dark Sight to see, this can be a pro and a con.
It depends on what you want to do with them, if you and/or your party does not have Devil's Sight I think Fog Cloud is better. It's a cheaper spell, has a larger radius, and works on Devils.
I personally like to use Minor Illusion to make fog. It can't be interacted with, so you can't just walk into it to get rid of it. The target has to spend an Action Investigate vs my spell DC. It's not perfect, but I can see through it automagically.
Honestly my favorite use for this is to break LOS against ranged opponents.
I'm inclined to agree with FullMetalBunny. I do have an additional caveats to point out: darkness can be upcast as a third level spell to prevent it from being dispelled by daylight while fog cloud can be dispersed with a gust of wind no matter at what level the fog cloud is cast.
Side note: JC disagrees that minor illusion can be used to make fog for what it's worth (which may not be much depending on your game).
Darkness can't be upcasted to not be dispelled by Daylight.
Upcasting Darkness will only protect your from Counterspell and Dispel Magic.
I'll post citation later... it's late.
That's a weird ruling my JC on minor illusion. There is *nothing* in the spell that says you can't mage a cubes of black darkness, fog, or whatever illusion you desire.
Darkness has a shorter duration but is tactically more flexible. Fogcloud is only cast on a location, Darkness can be cast on an object. said object can be moved or thrown. Is it a typo that Darkvision can see through darkness? It reads that Darkvision CANNOT.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Darkness can be upcast to prevent dispelling by daylight, but not illumination by daylight. It must be upcast to at least 4th level not 3rd like I wrote previously.
From PHB pg. 201, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting."
From daylight, "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled."
Since a darkness cast with a 4th level slot is a 4th level spell, it will not be dispelled by daylight.
This is not as useful as I implied above due to the illumination bit. Fun fact though: due to similar wording in darkness, a 3rd level continual flame cannot be dispelled by darkness, but will instead illuminate it.
I wouldn't rule that way. It says it wouldn't dispel it, not that it would illuminate the area. A real torch would still create light, it just wouldn't be seen. The continual flame would still exist, just not be seen.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Only non-magical light cannot illuminate darkness. Continual flame is magical light. If continual flame is not dispelled by darkness then continual flame will illuminate the darkness.
pwhimp is correct. Dim light or bright light illuminates darkness. The Darkness spell makes an exception for nonmagical light. Therefore magical light still works, as long as it doesn't get dispelled by the Darkness spell.
Minor Illusion creates a sound or an image of an object. The DMG defines an object as "a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone" (chapter 8, Running the Game). Liquids and gases aren't discrete.
Contrast with Silent Image which lets you create "the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon".
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Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. You've pointed out things that I missed about both spells and made picking only one harder in the process.
Professional computer geek
You can still make an object (say, a wall) that blocks LoS, though, to a similar effect. You can even make it so it surrounds you (if you're over 5' tall, you might need to hunch over a bit), to achieve the same effect as a "block of fog", or close enough.
Do any of the other players use the Light cantrip? If so, that could make your decision easier. Having to keep Darkness at least 40 feet away from your friends' light sources makes it very difficult to use.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Isn't that at least 15' away because Darkness has a 15' radius?
Except in combat where you can't casually spend an action to cast Light, cantrips are free so re-casting it is just assumed. In combat not having a light source is a disaster though!
Professional computer geek
The total radius for Light is 40 feet. Darkness will dispel light-producing spells if there's any overlap between them. That means anyone holding an object affected by Light needs to be at least 40 feet away from the sphere of Darkness, or 55 feet away from the point of origin.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The problem with an object like a wall is that it's easily examined by interaction and that is why one would want a fog cloud. An arrow passing through a wall immediately identifies it as an illusion, but not so much with a fog cloud. I'm having trouble thinking of an "object" (perhaps solid object considering JC's ruling) that could accomplish the same effect.
Edit: Given the dictionary definition of object, a material thing that can be seen and touched, I now think it's impossible to make an illusion of an object that avoids easy examination and obscures vision.
Thanks, now I understand.
Professional computer geek
Surely it just darkens the part of the light it overlaps with, not the entirety of the light.
EDIT: Nope!
"Not all those who wander are lost"
"A creature with darkvision can't see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can't illuminate it." PHB p. 230
"If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled." PHB p. 230
Just to recap, you need a 3rd lvl light spell or other feature (e.g. warlock eldritch invocation Devil's Sight, Item: Gem of Seeing, etc)
I hope this helped.