I wonder, why imho the sorcerer has not seen a dedicated gish subclass in neither 2014, nor in 2024 yet. Does WotC fear, that the Metamagic class feat would make it too difficult to balance?
A gish is typically expected to be able to attack more than once on his turn. See Valour Bard, Bladesinger, Pact of the Blade, Eldritch Knight,...You could bring up the Arcane Trickster, but imho that's a different story.
With the Sorcerer as such, you can quicken a spell, and then use the attack action, but only as long as you have sorcery points, and that somehow is not what people expect. Plus Sorcerers do not have access to Tenser's Transformation, and even if, it's very high level, and thus of very limited use.
Burning spell slots to keep casting 2 blade cantrips per turn is an option. Casting "Haste" on yourself is also another option.
I think extra attack is not truly necessary on sorcerer because its quicken metamagic. Attack twice and then cast a leveled spell would be too strong (Imo). But, it can cast a spell and then a blade cantrip. Certainly I can imagine some cool combos with that, from the first round.
It wouldn't be the "cast a spell on the first round and then attack twice on the second round", but more like "cast a spell and attack on the same round", and that's a gish if you ask me.
Burning spell slots to keep casting 2 blade cantrips per turn is an option. Casting "Haste" on yourself is also another option.
I think extra attack is not truly necessary on sorcerer because its quicken metamagic. Attack twice and then cast a leveled spell would be too strong (Imo). But, it can cast a spell and then a blade cantrip. Certainly I can imagine some cool combos with that, from the first round.
It wouldn't be the "cast a spell on the first round and then attack twice on the second round", but more like "cast a spell and attack on the same round", and that's a gish if you ask me.
Look at the weapons a sorcerer can use. A Gish should have access to Martial Weapons. Remember your weapon attack and spell will use different AS, so you will be MAD. While Draconic gives you improved defense it doesn’t give you anything that helps you be a melee fighter.
Haste costs you your concentration, so no shenanigans like concentrating on spells, which enhance your melee (or ranged) weapon damage output. Pretty weak!
Attacking twice and using a leveled spell is too strong? Coffee-Locks are overpowered then, since with 12 levels of Warlock, and X lvls of Sorcerer you can attack thrice...and cast a 1+ spell. Same technically with a 11 Fighter / X Sorc build.
Flame Blade needs a Magic Action, and is a single attack. And you can not combine it with a blade cantrips either.
Otherwise, as already been mentioned, simple weapons only.
Haste costs you your concentration, so no shenanigans like concentrating on spells, which enhance your melee (or ranged) weapon damage output. Pretty weak!
Attacking twice and using a leveled spell is too strong? Coffee-Locks are overpowered then, since with 12 levels of Warlock, and X lvls of Sorcerer you can attack thrice...and cast a 1+ spell. Same technically with a 11 Fighter / X Sorc build.
Flame Blade needs a Magic Action, and is a single attack. And you can not combine it with a blade cantrips either.
Otherwise, as already been mentioned, simple weapons only.
At character level 12 or 13, is not that op. But at level 6, when a sorcerer would get its extra attack, it is strong.
Anyway, certainly it won't be a strong gish. Or even a gish.
I am not interested in another "Bladesinger, but for Sorcerer" gish. It just feels like you're duct-taping a weapon attack option onto a caster. I think it would be way more interesting to do something that combines spellcasting and melee attacks, like channeling magic through your weapon.
Just giving a spellcaster the ability to swing a sword becomes a trap at higher levels, because spells are always a better use of your action. Even with Quickened Spell, you will do more damage with a Cantrip + Spell 100% of the time. What we need is an action that packs the power of a spell into a melee attack. Maybe even just a way to upgrade the existing melee cantrips with spell slots.
I am not interested in another "Bladesinger, but for Sorcerer" gish. It just feels like you're duct-taping a weapon attack option onto a caster. I think it would be way more interesting to do something that combines spellcasting and melee attacks, like channeling magic through your weapon.
I do very much agree. But spells like Flame Blade and True Strike alone are pretty boring. It needs to be some sort of „you pick an effect for your weapon, pick the spell slot required (or pick a higher slot for greater effect).
Plus stuff like smites, Steel Wind Strike, etc. as part of expanded spell list, options to pep up those as well via sorcery points.
Remember when designing a subclass if it does everything better than others it’s a bad class. Giving sorcerers smites is bad design because it makes them instantly better at smiting than half caster Paladins. If you design most spell channeling through weapon attacks it needs to be on a half caster at most because it becomes too powerful on a full caster. Often if you add an additional cost it becomes so expensive it’s not worth doing.
Wrathful Smite is obtainable by anyone, who picks up the Shadow-Touched feat. Great Old One warlocks with their lvl 10 sublass feat Eldritch Hex are very effective with that Smite, as their Hex will give disadvantage on every saving throw to overcome the frightened condition. The 5d6 necrotic are only icing on the cake.
The same combo was doable by Hexblades in 2014. Yes, Wrathful Smite got nerfed in 2024, going from psychic to necrotic damage, and now requiring a save instead of an ability check to remove the condition, but I‘ll argue it‘s still good.
So, if this is a bad idea, why is that combo still in the game?
Because that combo requires a feat. You are giving something up to gain it. You are also now talking about a specific build, not something given in a subclass. Additionally Warlocks don’t have the same spell slot progression as sorcerers. So your build isn’t even the same thing. At level 10 under the new rules you can do you smite 3 times with this Warlock. 2 with 5th level pact slots and one at 1st level with the feat. Then you are out of spell slots and need to rest. A Sorcerer is still casting spells or using smites after. Also if this is a subclass it would have more than just Wrathful smite. Google Stone Sorcerer UA. They tried this already and it never made it to print. A fish sorcerer would be closer to just another bladesinger than anything with smites and spell channeling through weapon attacks.
I would not consider it a sacrifice picking a specific feat, especially since you still get your +1 stat, and another free spell. Your implication applies to single class warlocks. As a warlock/sorcerer you get far more spell slots for smites of respectable levels, especially when you consider the coffee-lock method.
Btw. Paladins can also multiclass Sorcerer. That is not uncommon either. Going 6 lvls Paladins, and rest Sorcerer will give you a bunch of spell slots to cast your smites with, and of higher spell level that you could reach as a single class Paladin. You could consider that as a GISH sorcerer already to some extend, but it‘s about single class sorcerer GISH now, and how to make it viable.
Doesn’t matter that you don’t consider picking something and thus giving up other possibilties a sacrifice. It is. You have sacrificed the other possibilites. So multiclassing gives you more spell slots but you lose out on higher level spells and features. That’s a sacrifice as well, no matter how you consider it. I’m not against a Gish Sorcerer. I’m just telling you that you are never going to get one that has smites or a smite like feature because it will simply be far better at it than half casters. They just did a ton of work trying to rebalance the game, why would they throw it away to make a Sorcerer that can just smite better than a Paladin, still has all of its feat choices, and has its full spell progression because it didn’t have to multi class. Oh and let’s not forget that any smite spell that has a saving throw you would likely have a higher DC as a sorcerer. This becomes especially egregious if this gish subclass uses Cha for weapon attacks and damage which is a staple of gish subclasses now a days.
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I wonder, why imho the sorcerer has not seen a dedicated gish subclass in neither 2014, nor in 2024 yet. Does WotC fear, that the Metamagic class feat would make it too difficult to balance?
They had a UA for a Stone Sorcerer once. I’m guessing it didn’t test well.
Isn't Draconic Sorcery the "melee sorcerer" subclass?
I think it could be play focused on weapon attacks.
How? I see natural armor, and half of a tough feat, but what makes it a GISH (without multiclassing)?
I guess the gish feature expected is generally extra attack
A gish is typically expected to be able to attack more than once on his turn. See Valour Bard, Bladesinger, Pact of the Blade, Eldritch Knight,...You could bring up the Arcane Trickster, but imho that's a different story.
With the Sorcerer as such, you can quicken a spell, and then use the attack action, but only as long as you have sorcery points, and that somehow is not what people expect. Plus Sorcerers do not have access to Tenser's Transformation, and even if, it's very high level, and thus of very limited use.
Burning spell slots to keep casting 2 blade cantrips per turn is an option. Casting "Haste" on yourself is also another option.
I think extra attack is not truly necessary on sorcerer because its quicken metamagic. Attack twice and then cast a leveled spell would be too strong (Imo). But, it can cast a spell and then a blade cantrip. Certainly I can imagine some cool combos with that, from the first round.
It wouldn't be the "cast a spell on the first round and then attack twice on the second round", but more like "cast a spell and attack on the same round", and that's a gish if you ask me.
Look at the weapons a sorcerer can use. A Gish should have access to Martial Weapons. Remember your weapon attack and spell will use different AS, so you will be MAD. While Draconic gives you improved defense it doesn’t give you anything that helps you be a melee fighter.
Haste costs you your concentration, so no shenanigans like concentrating on spells, which enhance your melee (or ranged) weapon damage output. Pretty weak!
Attacking twice and using a leveled spell is too strong? Coffee-Locks are overpowered then, since with 12 levels of Warlock, and X lvls of Sorcerer you can attack thrice...and cast a 1+ spell. Same technically with a 11 Fighter / X Sorc build.
Flame Blade needs a Magic Action, and is a single attack. And you can not combine it with a blade cantrips either.
Otherwise, as already been mentioned, simple weapons only.
A draconic sorcerer won't be an optimized gish. But you can play it with true strike to avoid the MAD.
Again, its not a truly gish, but you CAN play it as a gish. Im not debating about how cool could be a truly sorcerer gish subclass.
At character level 12 or 13, is not that op. But at level 6, when a sorcerer would get its extra attack, it is strong.
Anyway, certainly it won't be a strong gish. Or even a gish.
I am not interested in another "Bladesinger, but for Sorcerer" gish. It just feels like you're duct-taping a weapon attack option onto a caster. I think it would be way more interesting to do something that combines spellcasting and melee attacks, like channeling magic through your weapon.
Just giving a spellcaster the ability to swing a sword becomes a trap at higher levels, because spells are always a better use of your action. Even with Quickened Spell, you will do more damage with a Cantrip + Spell 100% of the time. What we need is an action that packs the power of a spell into a melee attack. Maybe even just a way to upgrade the existing melee cantrips with spell slots.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You would still be better off casting a spell and a cantrip. You are getting close and fighting with a weapon mostly for flavor.
I do very much agree. But spells like Flame Blade and True Strike alone are pretty boring. It needs to be some sort of „you pick an effect for your weapon, pick the spell slot required (or pick a higher slot for greater effect).
Plus stuff like smites, Steel Wind Strike, etc. as part of expanded spell list, options to pep up those as well via sorcery points.
Spellstrike sounds really cool for a Sorcerer.
I would add some use of sorcery points to improve defenses also.
Remember when designing a subclass if it does everything better than others it’s a bad class. Giving sorcerers smites is bad design because it makes them instantly better at smiting than half caster Paladins. If you design most spell channeling through weapon attacks it needs to be on a half caster at most because it becomes too powerful on a full caster. Often if you add an additional cost it becomes so expensive it’s not worth doing.
Wrathful Smite is obtainable by anyone, who picks up the Shadow-Touched feat. Great Old One warlocks with their lvl 10 sublass feat Eldritch Hex are very effective with that Smite, as their Hex will give disadvantage on every saving throw to overcome the frightened condition. The 5d6 necrotic are only icing on the cake.
The same combo was doable by Hexblades in 2014. Yes, Wrathful Smite got nerfed in 2024, going from psychic to necrotic damage, and now requiring a save instead of an ability check to remove the condition, but I‘ll argue it‘s still good.
So, if this is a bad idea, why is that combo still in the game?
Because that combo requires a feat. You are giving something up to gain it. You are also now talking about a specific build, not something given in a subclass. Additionally Warlocks don’t have the same spell slot progression as sorcerers. So your build isn’t even the same thing. At level 10 under the new rules you can do you smite 3 times with this Warlock. 2 with 5th level pact slots and one at 1st level with the feat. Then you are out of spell slots and need to rest. A Sorcerer is still casting spells or using smites after. Also if this is a subclass it would have more than just Wrathful smite. Google Stone Sorcerer UA. They tried this already and it never made it to print. A fish sorcerer would be closer to just another bladesinger than anything with smites and spell channeling through weapon attacks.
I would not consider it a sacrifice picking a specific feat, especially since you still get your +1 stat, and another free spell. Your implication applies to single class warlocks. As a warlock/sorcerer you get far more spell slots for smites of respectable levels, especially when you consider the coffee-lock method.
Btw. Paladins can also multiclass Sorcerer. That is not uncommon either. Going 6 lvls Paladins, and rest Sorcerer will give you a bunch of spell slots to cast your smites with, and of higher spell level that you could reach as a single class Paladin. You could consider that as a GISH sorcerer already to some extend, but it‘s about single class sorcerer GISH now, and how to make it viable.
Doesn’t matter that you don’t consider picking something and thus giving up other possibilties a sacrifice. It is. You have sacrificed the other possibilites.
So multiclassing gives you more spell slots but you lose out on higher level spells and features. That’s a sacrifice as well, no matter how you consider it.
I’m not against a Gish Sorcerer. I’m just telling you that you are never going to get one that has smites or a smite like feature because it will simply be far better at it than half casters. They just did a ton of work trying to rebalance the game, why would they throw it away to make a Sorcerer that can just smite better than a Paladin, still has all of its feat choices, and has its full spell progression because it didn’t have to multi class. Oh and let’s not forget that any smite spell that has a saving throw you would likely have a higher DC as a sorcerer. This becomes especially egregious if this gish subclass uses Cha for weapon attacks and damage which is a staple of gish subclasses now a days.