I'm struggling a bit with the concept of patrons. They are not gods, per se, but are very powerful, extra-planar beings. Okay. But they don't appear to be omniscient or omnipotent. So that poses a huge challenge for any sort of back and forth communication between patron and slave, erm, warlock.
If we accept the concept that warlocks can send signs and portents through dreams, cloud formations, flights of birds, and other such phenomena (and assuming those are just some sort of undocumented spell effect or special ability on the patron's part) how do we account for the patron knowing what the slave, erm, warlock is doing at any given time in order to send helpful, instructive, or cautioning signs and portents? I really wish there was some sort of game mechanic to provide guidelines, like — "the patron can see, hear, and smell whatever the warlock hears sees and smells for up to 1 minute, once per week." But then how would the patron know when to check in? Perhaps they have to be called by their slave, erm, warlock "Blood and souls for my lord Arioch!" with a chance that the patron checks in based on some combination of the Warlocks's Charisma and level? Or some ritual has to be performed to open a channel. At the same time, I'd think direct communication with the patron would be tricky to arbitrate on the spot, so I like the idea of vague signs and portents. But see above. A patron has to know what's going on in order to support the warlock, or even to send them on missions. The whole thing suggests omnicience. But patrons are not gods (many of whom are not omniscient either, I guess, but let's stay focused on patrons, shall we?).
Do the patrons have plane-traveling messengers constantly bringing them news of their warlocks’ activities? Is there a time delay for such communications? How the heck does this work? I have a feylock character in my campaign. Do little bluejays fly back and forth with messages between the PC and the Summer Queen, like little singing telegrams? I think these powers might be limited when the PC is underground or even in the winter. She just acquired a pseudodragon familiar through pact of the chain, so I could set up a channel between the dragon and the Summer Queen easily enough, and have already hinted at such capability. But I've not defined it, nor have I had to because the party has been underground — until now. So I need to nail this stuff down, and quickly. I'd like to think the PC could contact her archfey patron during her reverie time — but that could mean direct communication once every long rest. Seems OP.
In summary, I wish there were mechanical aspects for patron intel and communications. Something like this:
1.) Patrons are not omniscient. They can only discern the goings-on in the world and with their warlocks through direct communication with the warlock or through a messenger. Since they are not omniscient, however, they can not usually initiate such communication (perhaps not without the aid of some magical item that provides a direct link between warlock and patron) because they don't know where their warlock is at any given time. The patron may send agents (birds, bats, squirrels, imps, etc., appropriate to the patron's theme) to find the warlock and deliver a message, but they may not always succeed (or succeed in time). The warlock cannot actually speak or understand the "speech" of the messengers unless they can otherwise do so, through a spell, special ability, or magic item. But the messengers can make their basic intentions known — wanting to be followed, warning a warlock of danger, etc. Alternatively, a physical message can be attached to the messenger in the form of a tiny scroll or note. If the warlock can speak with the messenger through one of the prescribed methods, he can attempt to send a message back. At any rate, it takes 1d6 minutes to carry the message, one-way.
2.) Barring a magical item-link, a patron can only initiate contact when the warlock is dreaming or, for elves, in reverie. At this time, the walls between worlds are at their thinnest, making it easier for patrons to break through. The clarity of the message will vary widely, however. Sometimes communications are like a direct dialog with the warlock. More often, the patron may only manage vague symbols and images that point to a message. To determine the quality of communication, roll D20:
1-13: Mysterious images and dream-happenings that don't make any sense (to the character at the time).
14-17: Strange images and dream-happenings that are symbolic, but simple and fairly easy to interpret.
18-19. Direct communication with the patron who speaks to you. The content maybe a little mysterious or it might be very straightforward. In any event, there is no back and forth dialog. The patron speaks to the warlock. the warlock cannot speak to the patron.
20. You can have a brief (1 minute of game time) dialog with the patron. But the dialog may be mysterious and weird, or straightforward. However, see #1.
3.) Warlocks can initiate communications with their patron by purposefully entering into a dream/trance/reverie state through a ritual. This ritual may only be held under certain conditions (at dawn, under a full moon, during a thunderstorm — whatever is appropriate to the patron's ethos — giving the DM control over the frequency and convenience of the act). To successfully connect, the warlock must achieve a DC 20 Charisma roll, using their level as an additional bonus. Failing to achieve this, compare the result of the roll to the above table to determine the quality of communication.
4.) Patrons can send vague omens and portents to their patrons (provided they know roughly where they are). The delivery method must be consistent with the patron's theme. The Summer Queen might cause a patch of wildflowers to appear (a sign of hope and encouragement) for example, or send a cool refreshing breeze. Or a single ray of sunshine to eliminate something otherwise hidden (a safe campsite perhaps). Here we are dangerously close to omniscience and omnipotence, so should be used very rarely, if ever, lest we pass into godhood. Note, however, that omens can be something the warlocks have been taught to ascribe meaning to, much like superstitious omens in our own world. That does not mean that they have to be a direct sending from the patron. To a layperson, seven yellow birds sitting together on a fence might not mean anything. Whereas a feylock may have been taught to interpret this as a good omen. This does not mean that the archfey patron sent the yellow birds to sit on the fence. Omens are often best left very vague — good/bad, life/death, hope/despair, prosperity/ruin. You need not get more specific with them. On the other hand, the world is full of all kinds of strange omens with very specific meanings. In some precincts in England, it was believed that should a fir tree be touched, withered, or burned with lightning, the master or mistress of the house will die! That's pretty specific. But use such things sparingly.
5.) In all cases, communications, whether in the form of dreams, omens, or conversations, are not always possible, and should be limited in some way. The Summer Queen may be incapable of sending portents in any other season, or underground, for example. Conversely, a devilish patron may not be able to send portents inside consecrated or holy ground or spaces, like cathedrals, etc. They should also not be in real-time (so that the warlock can't contact their patron for advice on defeating an opponent in the middle of combat). Except for the rare, one-way portent, the communications should always require time and effort.
Sorry this is so long, but I developed this in real-time as I thought through all the issues. What started as a question for the community turned into some answers that will work for me, and, hopefully, someone else struggling with the same questions.
You are over thinking this. If there were rules for everything, no one would want to play. Roleplay stuff. Who cares. DnD is about creative ideas and uses for stuff. So, the feylock can communicate however they want. You sound kinda paranoid the way you say about control and rules for speaking to a patron. It is a GAME, a roleplaying GAME.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I love warlock’s and one of the players in the game that I’m running is playing a warlock right now and my answer for all of your questions and issues is, “I do whatever I need to do with the warlock’s patron to make the story flow smoothly and to make the story fun.” The patron isn’t a mechanical part of the warlock class, it’s a story part of the warlock class so the patron can do whatever I need it to do for the story. And the patron can’t do anything that will hurt the story or make the game less fun either.
Okay, that was a lot to read... but i think i get your question.
I'd personally like to think patrons as, a boss at work in a private company. You have a contract that binds you to the boss and you get paid for your work though, the catch is, you might not like your work but you are bound by a contract so you can't just walk away. While working, you encountered a problem, unsure of what to do, you decided to talk to your boss, it's to them to answer you or not and if they did answer to give you a clear or not.
Patrons are similar, they may not be a strong as a god, but their power level is little bit lower than them. Methods of contact vary from dreams, omens etc.... It also depends on the type of patron and who they are! A demon might have a quasit sent to you with order/requests, An Great old one might haunt your dream with visions. It all depends on the Dm's way of dealing with it. it has been left vague to leave a chance of creativity for DMs and player while making the relationship between a warlock and the patron.
So as KaoshiElder29said, don't over think it. if you are the Dm decide what works and what doesn't and if you are a player talk to your DM. Heck, if you are still concerned, look at the warlock spell list, they don't have spells like Augry, commune or many other spells that allows to to talk to their patron. Instead they are given the spell "Contact other plane" which is very risky so, i don't think warlocks were intended to have a normal way of contacting their patron. Hope this eases your concerns and always remember, things were left vague not for confusion but for your own creativity.
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Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
@KaoshiElder29:Wait — a GAME? Crikey, how could I have missed that? I thought this was for reals. You're right. We don't need no steenking rules! Man, thanks for setting me straight!
@Arlong: Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I made a few tweaks and I'm happy with where I landed. Patron communications don't come up all that often, but I felt I needed a framework for handling them instead of making stuff up on the fly. My player wanted to know how communication works as well, and "however I want it to" is not a very satisfactory answer. I was hung up on the omniscience part, which seems like a snag. Anyhoo, maybe the framework I've offered above will help someone else with the same questions. Patrons are not omnipotent or omniscient and should not be played as such, IMO. Now I have guidelines to steer away from making them too powerful.
I like the thought you’ve put into this...although I admit...I love rolling randomly! I think this is very helpful. Your explanation of omens in #4 is what I had in my for my warlock (Night Hag Patron). Although I could have never described it so succinctly. Honestly, the Patron/Warlock relationship has always made me scratch my head a bit. What exactly does my Fiend Patron want from me...to spread blight and corruption? That seams lame and unrealistic.
The way that I think about this is that the Patron's relationship to the Warlock is something to be negotiated between the DM and the player. Some players have very definite ideas about who their Patron is and how/when to check in with the Patron. Some players don't care and just hand off those decisions to the DM. If it's the latter case, then communication would likely dpend on what fits into the story and fictional universe that the DM put together. If the OP likes clear rules about communication between Patron and Warlock, that's fine, too. I just think it takes away some story-telling flexibility,
Philosophically, this discussion brings up a great point. I think there's a medium between omniscience and singular intelligence. A patron, who may or may not be demigod-ish, may have what is somewhat akin to a web/mesh network intelligence. It's not omniscience, but rather the ability to connect to any being it's made a pact with. The bond and connect itself becomes the chassis of communication, and the method employed could be anything within reason.
Think of it a little like eusocial animals with Queen-and-worker social structures, only with sentience. There's a method, albeit indirectly, of communication between an individual worker and the queen. Bees do it by the dance, patrons and warlocks do it by whatever communication methods work best. In my Warlock's case, via his Grimoire with clues written in ancient Eladrin - which he reads.
A queen bee may not be able to communicate with an ant or grasshopper, but it can communicate with bees in the colony, and those bees can serve as pollen gatherers, builders, baby feeders, or even defense. In the case of a murder hornet invasion, bees can swarm and suffocate an attacking hornet because they work together. So, your warlock may be thought of as a worker bee for a Queen, but in this case with greater sentience and the ability to seek new knowledge for both themselves and their patron.
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I made mine a demon that aids my character through her endless life that he granted her, she can summon him by simply calling him to appear. I made him a stat block and my DM approved it, so he can enter combat and truly turn the tides against some formidable foes.
You could also use the patron as a flavor aspect first to help determine your mechanics. For instance, I have a warlock at my table with The Great Old One pact and she chose Leviathan. She made a new character in a continual word I have and so several sessions later I tied her old character into the grand scheme where she busts through the side of an underwater castle while riding Leviathan (she is also a water Genasi) to join the battle against a formidable foe that has brought Leviathan opposition in the past. He didn't fight but gave a free ride to bring another character to the board to help against the fight.
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I'm struggling a bit with the concept of patrons. They are not gods, per se, but are very powerful, extra-planar beings. Okay. But they don't appear to be omniscient or omnipotent. So that poses a huge challenge for any sort of back and forth communication between patron and
slave,erm, warlock.If we accept the concept that warlocks can send signs and portents through dreams, cloud formations, flights of birds, and other such phenomena (and assuming those are just some sort of undocumented spell effect or special ability on the patron's part) how do we account for the patron knowing what the
slave,erm, warlock is doing at any given time in order to send helpful, instructive, or cautioning signs and portents? I really wish there was some sort of game mechanic to provide guidelines, like — "the patron can see, hear, and smell whatever the warlock hears sees and smells for up to 1 minute, once per week." But then how would the patron know when to check in? Perhaps they have to be called by theirslave,erm, warlock "Blood and souls for my lord Arioch!" with a chance that the patron checks in based on some combination of the Warlocks's Charisma and level? Or some ritual has to be performed to open a channel. At the same time, I'd think direct communication with the patron would be tricky to arbitrate on the spot, so I like the idea of vague signs and portents. But see above. A patron has to know what's going on in order to support the warlock, or even to send them on missions. The whole thing suggests omnicience. But patrons are not gods (many of whom are not omniscient either, I guess, but let's stay focused on patrons, shall we?).Do the patrons have plane-traveling messengers constantly bringing them news of their warlocks’ activities? Is there a time delay for such communications? How the heck does this work? I have a feylock character in my campaign. Do little bluejays fly back and forth with messages between the PC and the Summer Queen, like little singing telegrams? I think these powers might be limited when the PC is underground or even in the winter. She just acquired a pseudodragon familiar through pact of the chain, so I could set up a channel between the dragon and the Summer Queen easily enough, and have already hinted at such capability. But I've not defined it, nor have I had to because the party has been underground — until now. So I need to nail this stuff down, and quickly. I'd like to think the PC could contact her archfey patron during her reverie time — but that could mean direct communication once every long rest. Seems OP.
In summary, I wish there were mechanical aspects for patron intel and communications. Something like this:
1.) Patrons are not omniscient. They can only discern the goings-on in the world and with their warlocks through direct communication with the warlock or through a messenger. Since they are not omniscient, however, they can not usually initiate such communication (perhaps not without the aid of some magical item that provides a direct link between warlock and patron) because they don't know where their warlock is at any given time. The patron may send agents (birds, bats, squirrels, imps, etc., appropriate to the patron's theme) to find the warlock and deliver a message, but they may not always succeed (or succeed in time). The warlock cannot actually speak or understand the "speech" of the messengers unless they can otherwise do so, through a spell, special ability, or magic item. But the messengers can make their basic intentions known — wanting to be followed, warning a warlock of danger, etc. Alternatively, a physical message can be attached to the messenger in the form of a tiny scroll or note. If the warlock can speak with the messenger through one of the prescribed methods, he can attempt to send a message back. At any rate, it takes 1d6 minutes to carry the message, one-way.
2.) Barring a magical item-link, a patron can only initiate contact when the warlock is dreaming or, for elves, in reverie. At this time, the walls between worlds are at their thinnest, making it easier for patrons to break through. The clarity of the message will vary widely, however. Sometimes communications are like a direct dialog with the warlock. More often, the patron may only manage vague symbols and images that point to a message. To determine the quality of communication, roll D20:
1-13: Mysterious images and dream-happenings that don't make any sense (to the character at the time).
14-17: Strange images and dream-happenings that are symbolic, but simple and fairly easy to interpret.
18-19. Direct communication with the patron who speaks to you. The content maybe a little mysterious or it might be very straightforward. In any event, there is no back and forth dialog. The patron speaks to the warlock. the warlock cannot speak to the patron.
20. You can have a brief (1 minute of game time) dialog with the patron. But the dialog may be mysterious and weird, or straightforward. However, see #1.
3.) Warlocks can initiate communications with their patron by purposefully entering into a dream/trance/reverie state through a ritual. This ritual may only be held under certain conditions (at dawn, under a full moon, during a thunderstorm — whatever is appropriate to the patron's ethos — giving the DM control over the frequency and convenience of the act). To successfully connect, the warlock must achieve a DC 20 Charisma roll, using their level as an additional bonus. Failing to achieve this, compare the result of the roll to the above table to determine the quality of communication.
4.) Patrons can send vague omens and portents to their patrons (provided they know roughly where they are). The delivery method must be consistent with the patron's theme. The Summer Queen might cause a patch of wildflowers to appear (a sign of hope and encouragement) for example, or send a cool refreshing breeze. Or a single ray of sunshine to eliminate something otherwise hidden (a safe campsite perhaps). Here we are dangerously close to omniscience and omnipotence, so should be used very rarely, if ever, lest we pass into godhood. Note, however, that omens can be something the warlocks have been taught to ascribe meaning to, much like superstitious omens in our own world. That does not mean that they have to be a direct sending from the patron. To a layperson, seven yellow birds sitting together on a fence might not mean anything. Whereas a feylock may have been taught to interpret this as a good omen. This does not mean that the archfey patron sent the yellow birds to sit on the fence. Omens are often best left very vague — good/bad, life/death, hope/despair, prosperity/ruin. You need not get more specific with them. On the other hand, the world is full of all kinds of strange omens with very specific meanings. In some precincts in England, it was believed that should a fir tree be touched, withered, or burned with lightning, the master or mistress of the house will die! That's pretty specific. But use such things sparingly.
5.) In all cases, communications, whether in the form of dreams, omens, or conversations, are not always possible, and should be limited in some way. The Summer Queen may be incapable of sending portents in any other season, or underground, for example. Conversely, a devilish patron may not be able to send portents inside consecrated or holy ground or spaces, like cathedrals, etc. They should also not be in real-time (so that the warlock can't contact their patron for advice on defeating an opponent in the middle of combat). Except for the rare, one-way portent, the communications should always require time and effort.
Sorry this is so long, but I developed this in real-time as I thought through all the issues. What started as a question for the community turned into some answers that will work for me, and, hopefully, someone else struggling with the same questions.
M.
You are over thinking this. If there were rules for everything, no one would want to play. Roleplay stuff. Who cares. DnD is about creative ideas and uses for stuff. So, the feylock can communicate however they want. You sound kinda paranoid the way you say about control and rules for speaking to a patron. It is a GAME, a roleplaying GAME.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
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I love warlock’s and one of the players in the game that I’m running is playing a warlock right now and my answer for all of your questions and issues is, “I do whatever I need to do with the warlock’s patron to make the story flow smoothly and to make the story fun.” The patron isn’t a mechanical part of the warlock class, it’s a story part of the warlock class so the patron can do whatever I need it to do for the story. And the patron can’t do anything that will hurt the story or make the game less fun either.
Professional computer geek
Okay, that was a lot to read... but i think i get your question.
I'd personally like to think patrons as, a boss at work in a private company. You have a contract that binds you to the boss and you get paid for your work though, the catch is, you might not like your work but you are bound by a contract so you can't just walk away. While working, you encountered a problem, unsure of what to do, you decided to talk to your boss, it's to them to answer you or not and if they did answer to give you a clear or not.
Patrons are similar, they may not be a strong as a god, but their power level is little bit lower than them. Methods of contact vary from dreams, omens etc.... It also depends on the type of patron and who they are! A demon might have a quasit sent to you with order/requests, An Great old one might haunt your dream with visions. It all depends on the Dm's way of dealing with it. it has been left vague to leave a chance of creativity for DMs and player while making the relationship between a warlock and the patron.
So as KaoshiElder29said, don't over think it. if you are the Dm decide what works and what doesn't and if you are a player talk to your DM. Heck, if you are still concerned, look at the warlock spell list, they don't have spells like Augry, commune or many other spells that allows to to talk to their patron. Instead they are given the spell "Contact other plane" which is very risky so, i don't think warlocks were intended to have a normal way of contacting their patron. Hope this eases your concerns and always remember, things were left vague not for confusion but for your own creativity.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
@KaoshiElder29: Wait — a GAME? Crikey, how could I have missed that? I thought this was for reals. You're right. We don't need no steenking rules! Man, thanks for setting me straight!
@Arlong: Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I made a few tweaks and I'm happy with where I landed. Patron communications don't come up all that often, but I felt I needed a framework for handling them instead of making stuff up on the fly. My player wanted to know how communication works as well, and "however I want it to" is not a very satisfactory answer. I was hung up on the omniscience part, which seems like a snag. Anyhoo, maybe the framework I've offered above will help someone else with the same questions. Patrons are not omnipotent or omniscient and should not be played as such, IMO. Now I have guidelines to steer away from making them too powerful.
I like the thought you’ve put into this...although I admit...I love rolling randomly! I think this is very helpful. Your explanation of omens in #4 is what I had in my for my warlock (Night Hag Patron). Although I could have never described it so succinctly. Honestly, the Patron/Warlock relationship has always made me scratch my head a bit. What exactly does my Fiend Patron want from me...to spread blight and corruption? That seams lame and unrealistic.
The way that I think about this is that the Patron's relationship to the Warlock is something to be negotiated between the DM and the player. Some players have very definite ideas about who their Patron is and how/when to check in with the Patron. Some players don't care and just hand off those decisions to the DM. If it's the latter case, then communication would likely dpend on what fits into the story and fictional universe that the DM put together. If the OP likes clear rules about communication between Patron and Warlock, that's fine, too. I just think it takes away some story-telling flexibility,
Philosophically, this discussion brings up a great point. I think there's a medium between omniscience and singular intelligence. A patron, who may or may not be demigod-ish, may have what is somewhat akin to a web/mesh network intelligence. It's not omniscience, but rather the ability to connect to any being it's made a pact with. The bond and connect itself becomes the chassis of communication, and the method employed could be anything within reason.
Think of it a little like eusocial animals with Queen-and-worker social structures, only with sentience. There's a method, albeit indirectly, of communication between an individual worker and the queen. Bees do it by the dance, patrons and warlocks do it by whatever communication methods work best. In my Warlock's case, via his Grimoire with clues written in ancient Eladrin - which he reads.
A queen bee may not be able to communicate with an ant or grasshopper, but it can communicate with bees in the colony, and those bees can serve as pollen gatherers, builders, baby feeders, or even defense. In the case of a murder hornet invasion, bees can swarm and suffocate an attacking hornet because they work together. So, your warlock may be thought of as a worker bee for a Queen, but in this case with greater sentience and the ability to seek new knowledge for both themselves and their patron.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I made mine a demon that aids my character through her endless life that he granted her, she can summon him by simply calling him to appear. I made him a stat block and my DM approved it, so he can enter combat and truly turn the tides against some formidable foes.
You could also use the patron as a flavor aspect first to help determine your mechanics. For instance, I have a warlock at my table with The Great Old One pact and she chose Leviathan. She made a new character in a continual word I have and so several sessions later I tied her old character into the grand scheme where she busts through the side of an underwater castle while riding Leviathan (she is also a water Genasi) to join the battle against a formidable foe that has brought Leviathan opposition in the past. He didn't fight but gave a free ride to bring another character to the board to help against the fight.