Overall The alchemist is the most reliant on the features of the class that are dm dependent. They can multi class to get effect but a single class they are behind the others.
Saying that they do have a few corner cases where they shine. The only EE that doesn't stack is the alter self option (if you got a monk in the party it's a solid buff outside the obvious utility) so they can stack with similar effects.
They're lag a little in the middle game but even after worst point canceling out the attack penalty for your big damage dealers in the party. In context to the late game they have some really solid options. Not as good as the others but solid none the less.
Flight elixir also doesn't stack. It grants you a 10 foot flying speed for 10 minutes. RAW it doesn't increase your already existing flying speed by 10 feet. If you have another effect that grants you a flying speed you can choose to use either, they don't combine.
No, I would never. Experimental Elixir is self-evidently awful, and that awfulness propagates into making Restorative Reagents awful. If it was radically rewritten, I would at least consider trying it; at a minimum, I would need rolling on the table to just be removed, allowing me to pick my 1-3 free elixirs. But even then, the subclass would need so much help to be good, since elixirs have to compete directly with eldritch cannons and steel defenders for things that cost a spell slot to bring into existence or back from the dead, respectively. I don't even necessarily mind them having to give up the Artificer ability to use infusions as foci in order to make their subclass spellcasting do its thing, but as written, it's like adding insult to injury.
You get up to three free potions per long rest, that's hardly awful, let alone "self-evidently" so; it being random isn't actually a huge problem since half of them are always useful (Healing, Resilience and Boldness), and Flight is fairly easy to take advantage of in most cases. Swiftness and Transformation are more situational, and may depend on your campaign more, but they're hardly bad effects (Transform is a free 10 minute, concentration free use of Alter Self, a 2nd level spell).
And on top of the 1-3 free potions, you can create more at a cost in spell slots; sure, you might want those slots for other things, but the elixir effects are not to be sniffed at. For example, a Healing elixir is more potent than a 1st level Healing Word (earlier on), and crucially you can hand them out to allies (whereas Healing Word you can only cast once per turn at most without the metamagic feat). Resilience gives +1 AC, and compared to Shield of Faith can be given to multiple allies at once without concentration, and is added on top of any other bonuses you've given through infusions etc. (or the aforementioned Shield of Faith 😉).
the subclass would need so much help to be good, since elixirs have to compete directly with eldritch cannons and steel defenders for things that cost a spell slot to bring into existence or back from the dead, respectively.
You're comparing two damage focused sub-classes with a sub-class that is focused very much on support, no wonder you find it underwhelming.
While I'm not going to pretend that the Alchemist couldn't be improved, you need to actually look at it in terms of what it's intended for. To start with it actually has a really good spell list, and it should be built first and foremost as a support character, maybe picking up the Poisoner feat for good measure (so you can be handing out both elixirs and poisons while ignoring poison resistance on your own attacks). An Alchemist shouldn't be compared to half-casting martials, but is more like a half-caster mixing Cleric and maybe a bit of Bard.
If you want more of a poisoner assassin or such then what you want is something more like Yurei1453's Toxicologist homebrew sub-class; but that's for building a very different type of character.
I don't even necessarily mind them having to give up the Artificer ability to use infusions as foci in order to make their subclass spellcasting do its thing, but as written, it's like adding insult to injury.
If you're referring to the 5th level Alchemical Savant feature and how it works with Enhanced Arcane Focus then you're ignoring how the feature actually works; Enhanced Arcane Focus only applies to attack rolls, but you don't make attack rolls with healing spells, and adding +INT damage to an attack roll spell isn't what you should be trying to do (same applies for a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer's Elemental Adept ability); for damage, the spells you want to be using that feature with are spells that force a saving throw on multiple enemies at once, as you'll add a much more meaningful amount of damage that way, as it applies to every single enemy affected (including those that pass their saves, on many spells).
While Alchemist probably is the weakest of the Artificer sub-classes overall (depending how you look at it), Artificer is already a very good class so that's not actually saying much; it's a perfectly servicable sub-class for the types of characters it supports, which is support oriented characters, and when you stack it with infusions and the right magic items it's plenty good in this role, and it's the best sub-class in the game if that's what you want to build. If that's not the kind of character you want to play, fine, but there's no need to dump on the sub-class because of that.
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I'm really tempted to try at least a one-shot or something as an alchemist just to get some idea if it's as bad as some people seem to think it is.
Im having so much fun with my Battle Smith, Im tempted to just roll every artificer subclass.... I think the core class is great, so even if the Alchemist isnt as good it should be fine....
I'm really tempted to try at least a one-shot or something as an alchemist just to get some idea if it's as bad as some people seem to think it is.
It’s nowhere near as bad as some folks claim. It isn’t the best, but it isn’t terrible by a long shot. (Some folks just hate the random elixirs that much.) I do implement a couple alterations however, just to make it a little more on par with the other subs. I made the following minor modifications to the EE feature:
Experimental Elixirs
3rd-level Alchemist feature
Whenever you finish a long rest, you can magically produce a number of experimental elixirs equal to your Proficiency bonus, each in an empty flask you touch. Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir. As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature.
You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir's effect from the Experimental Elixirs table.
Creating an experimental elixir requires you to have alchemist's supplies on your person, and any elixir you create with this feature lasts until it is drunk or until the end of your next long rest. When you use this feature to create experimental elixirs at the end of a long rest, for each one you can make, you can instead choose to maintain an experimental elixir you have made previously using this feature.
In addition, if an Alchemist takes the Homunculus infusion it gets a little extra for them:
Homunculus’ Pouch. The alchemical homunculus has a small pouch in which it can carry potions, alchemical substances, or other tiny objects. Carried items must be sized Tiny or smaller and weigh no more than 1 lb. each. The pouch can contain a number of these items equal to your proficiency bonus.
Actions
Administer Potion or Elixir. The Alchemical Homunculus can administer any 1 potion or experimental elixir it is carrying to a willing or incapacitated creature within 5 ft. of it that you can see.
Throw Alchemical Substance. The homunculus can throw any 1 alchemical substance it is carrying, such as a Flask of Alchemist's Fire, a Vial of Acid, or a Tangler Grenade; or any other Tiny or smaller item weighing no more than 1 lb. that can be thrown as an improvised weapon, such as a flask of holy water or flask of oil.. Ranged Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, range 20 ft., one target you can see. Hit: 1d4 + PB bludgeoning damage.
PS- Although frankly, IMO, the Homunculus Servant is all around improved by that and reasonable for all artificers. However, I’m one of those thinks it should have stayed exclusively Alchemist and also had a separate tiny gizmoservant as an infusion for all. So I settle for giving the Alchemist version the additional utility since it specifically suits their schtick.
Honestly the action economy flub of EE is the big hurdle. If they could be applied to an ally without them being unconscious that would be the single biggest quality of life upgrade for the alchemist.
I didn't even realize that the Elixirs can only be applied to an ally if they're unconscious. Does that same rule also apply to Potions? I can partly get the logic behind that... I mean, it's super awkward to run up to someone and feed them a potion, but it's still a fairly common thing to do at the table. I feel like that's one of those things where most DM's would just let you ignore that limitation.
Artificer in general runs into a lot of weird little problems with the specifics of how things work. It's generally accepted that Artificers don't really "cast" spells, but use technology to replicate or trigger magic in some form or another. So lots of people think something like "I inject my ally with a needle to speed up their metabolism and caste Haste", which is cool and all... but that raises questions like... how does "concentration" still make sense if that's how you cast the spell? And if it's in the form of a needle, why can't your Artificer just give the needle to someone else so they an just use it on their own?
Still, beyond that it's just flavor. I'd say most DM's would be fine with an Alchemist simply flavoring their Elixirs as being a syringe... mechanically, it doesn't give any serious advantage over a flask. I'd say you could even say it takes the form of a cookie or like... turkish delights or some other nonsense. Just as long as it still takes an action to use it's all the same.
Don't think the artificer really falls off late game, you can do a lot of fun stuff as lots of people here have suggested.
It does somewhat have the potential to fall off depending on how much gear your GM gives out late game though. The class will never be bad, but it's something to think about.
Honestly the action economy flub of EE is the big hurdle. If they could be applied to an ally without them being unconscious that would be the single biggest quality of life upgrade for the alchemist.
I didn't even realize that the Elixirs can only be applied to an ally if they're unconscious. Does that same rule also apply to Potions? I can partly get the logic behind that... I mean, it's super awkward to run up to someone and feed them a potion, but it's still a fairly common thing to do at the table. I feel like that's one of those things where most DM's would just let you ignore that limitation.
Technically it says:
“As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature.”
Not unconscious, just incapable of drinking it for themselves. But honestly, with the changes to helpercritters, it only takes an Alchemist a bonus action to command their Homunculus Servant to do it instead. (When I added that part to my “houseruled homunculus servant” it was more for explicit clarity than genuine necessity.
Artificer in general runs into a lot of weird little problems with the specifics of how things work. It's generally accepted that Artificers don't really "cast" spells, but use technology to replicate or trigger magic in some form or another. So lots of people think something like "I inject my ally with a needle to speed up their metabolism and caste Haste", which is cool and all... but that raises questions like... how does "concentration" still make sense if that's how you cast the spell? And if it's in the form of a needle, why can't your Artificer just give the needle to someone else so they an just use it on their own?
Still, beyond that it's just flavor. I'd say most DM's would be fine with an Alchemist simply flavoring their Elixirs as being a syringe... mechanically, it doesn't give any serious advantage over a flask. I'd say you could even say it takes the form of a cookie or like... turkish delights or some other nonsense. Just as long as it still takes an action to use it's all the same.
The way my artificer is flavored, she was able to grind down Pearls of Power into fine shards and use it as a catalyst in her backstory.
She has a gauntlet that allows a couple of brass baubles to fit into slots on it - basically an Infinity Gauntlet. To prepare a spell, she places the material components from that spell into the bauble (for example, a feather for Enhance Ability, or a spider's web for Web) along with these pearl shards, and screws them into her gauntlet. When the gauntlet sends power through these modules, it activates the spell the way it would for a wizard. It's a bit of a brute force solution, but it works. I still like to flavor spells as techy related as I can and still have it fit the world we're in, but there are some spells where it's just too hard to do. For those spells, I just use this method!
As far as concentration goes, the process is still unstable and some effects require a constant monitoring; she has to split her attention between correcting the energy flow to keep the spell up and interacting around her. Her Mind Sharpener infusion is a "battery" with a few charges in it that can keep the energy flowing until she can focus again.
Flavorwise she's my most fun character to play, and since I've never played a wizard that used a component pouch, it made a fun idea to give one to the artificer.
I feel the whole limit of only being able to make EE into drafts is an unnecessary limitation. Why not injections, salves, or even incense?
You can, it’s just all head canon. The mechanics wouldn’t change.
The big thing it would change would be preventing any kind of weird disconnect trying to administer it to somebody else while they're moving around.
My personal homebrewed alchemist has access to about 15 different infusions they can mix and match on to "prepared" EE list. Including a few damage and debuff options. Nothing crazy. There is one that gives them a small aoe effect that reduces targets AC by 1 on a failed save and another that basically an acid alchemist fire combo.
Well if you’ve homebrewed all of that, why not go the extra few inches and simply delete the word “incapacitated” from the class feature description and replace so it reads:
”As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to another creature.”
Flight elixir also doesn't stack. It grants you a 10 foot flying speed for 10 minutes. RAW it doesn't increase your already existing flying speed by 10 feet. If you have another effect that grants you a flying speed you can choose to use either, they don't combine.
No, I would never. Experimental Elixir is self-evidently awful, and that awfulness propagates into making Restorative Reagents awful. If it was radically rewritten, I would at least consider trying it; at a minimum, I would need rolling on the table to just be removed, allowing me to pick my 1-3 free elixirs. But even then, the subclass would need so much help to be good, since elixirs have to compete directly with eldritch cannons and steel defenders for things that cost a spell slot to bring into existence or back from the dead, respectively. I don't even necessarily mind them having to give up the Artificer ability to use infusions as foci in order to make their subclass spellcasting do its thing, but as written, it's like adding insult to injury.
You get up to three free potions per long rest, that's hardly awful, let alone "self-evidently" so; it being random isn't actually a huge problem since half of them are always useful (Healing, Resilience and Boldness), and Flight is fairly easy to take advantage of in most cases. Swiftness and Transformation are more situational, and may depend on your campaign more, but they're hardly bad effects (Transform is a free 10 minute, concentration free use of Alter Self, a 2nd level spell).
And on top of the 1-3 free potions, you can create more at a cost in spell slots; sure, you might want those slots for other things, but the elixir effects are not to be sniffed at. For example, a Healing elixir is more potent than a 1st level Healing Word (earlier on), and crucially you can hand them out to allies (whereas Healing Word you can only cast once per turn at most without the metamagic feat). Resilience gives +1 AC, and compared to Shield of Faith can be given to multiple allies at once without concentration, and is added on top of any other bonuses you've given through infusions etc. (or the aforementioned Shield of Faith 😉).
You're comparing two damage focused sub-classes with a sub-class that is focused very much on support, no wonder you find it underwhelming.
While I'm not going to pretend that the Alchemist couldn't be improved, you need to actually look at it in terms of what it's intended for. To start with it actually has a really good spell list, and it should be built first and foremost as a support character, maybe picking up the Poisoner feat for good measure (so you can be handing out both elixirs and poisons while ignoring poison resistance on your own attacks). An Alchemist shouldn't be compared to half-casting martials, but is more like a half-caster mixing Cleric and maybe a bit of Bard.
If you want more of a poisoner assassin or such then what you want is something more like Yurei1453's Toxicologist homebrew sub-class; but that's for building a very different type of character.
If you're referring to the 5th level Alchemical Savant feature and how it works with Enhanced Arcane Focus then you're ignoring how the feature actually works; Enhanced Arcane Focus only applies to attack rolls, but you don't make attack rolls with healing spells, and adding +INT damage to an attack roll spell isn't what you should be trying to do (same applies for a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer's Elemental Adept ability); for damage, the spells you want to be using that feature with are spells that force a saving throw on multiple enemies at once, as you'll add a much more meaningful amount of damage that way, as it applies to every single enemy affected (including those that pass their saves, on many spells).
While Alchemist probably is the weakest of the Artificer sub-classes overall (depending how you look at it), Artificer is already a very good class so that's not actually saying much; it's a perfectly servicable sub-class for the types of characters it supports, which is support oriented characters, and when you stack it with infusions and the right magic items it's plenty good in this role, and it's the best sub-class in the game if that's what you want to build. If that's not the kind of character you want to play, fine, but there's no need to dump on the sub-class because of that.
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That’s highly subjective and far from everyone’s experience.
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I'm really tempted to try at least a one-shot or something as an alchemist just to get some idea if it's as bad as some people seem to think it is.
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Im having so much fun with my Battle Smith, Im tempted to just roll every artificer subclass.... I think the core class is great, so even if the Alchemist isnt as good it should be fine....
It’s nowhere near as bad as some folks claim. It isn’t the best, but it isn’t terrible by a long shot. (Some folks just hate the random elixirs that much.) I do implement a couple alterations however, just to make it a little more on par with the other subs. I made the following minor modifications to the EE feature:
In addition, if an Alchemist takes the Homunculus infusion it gets a little extra for them:
PS- Although frankly, IMO, the Homunculus Servant is all around improved by that and reasonable for all artificers. However, I’m one of those thinks it should have stayed exclusively Alchemist and also had a separate tiny gizmoservant as an infusion for all. So I settle for giving the Alchemist version the additional utility since it specifically suits their schtick.
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I didn't even realize that the Elixirs can only be applied to an ally if they're unconscious. Does that same rule also apply to Potions? I can partly get the logic behind that... I mean, it's super awkward to run up to someone and feed them a potion, but it's still a fairly common thing to do at the table. I feel like that's one of those things where most DM's would just let you ignore that limitation.
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Artificer in general runs into a lot of weird little problems with the specifics of how things work. It's generally accepted that Artificers don't really "cast" spells, but use technology to replicate or trigger magic in some form or another. So lots of people think something like "I inject my ally with a needle to speed up their metabolism and caste Haste", which is cool and all... but that raises questions like... how does "concentration" still make sense if that's how you cast the spell? And if it's in the form of a needle, why can't your Artificer just give the needle to someone else so they an just use it on their own?
Still, beyond that it's just flavor. I'd say most DM's would be fine with an Alchemist simply flavoring their Elixirs as being a syringe... mechanically, it doesn't give any serious advantage over a flask. I'd say you could even say it takes the form of a cookie or like... turkish delights or some other nonsense. Just as long as it still takes an action to use it's all the same.
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You can, it’s just all head canon. The mechanics wouldn’t change.
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Don't think the artificer really falls off late game, you can do a lot of fun stuff as lots of people here have suggested.
It does somewhat have the potential to fall off depending on how much gear your GM gives out late game though. The class will never be bad, but it's something to think about.
Technically it says:
Not unconscious, just incapable of drinking it for themselves. But honestly, with the changes to helpercritters, it only takes an Alchemist a bonus action to command their Homunculus Servant to do it instead. (When I added that part to my “houseruled homunculus servant” it was more for explicit clarity than genuine necessity.
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The way my artificer is flavored, she was able to grind down Pearls of Power into fine shards and use it as a catalyst in her backstory.
She has a gauntlet that allows a couple of brass baubles to fit into slots on it - basically an Infinity Gauntlet. To prepare a spell, she places the material components from that spell into the bauble (for example, a feather for Enhance Ability, or a spider's web for Web) along with these pearl shards, and screws them into her gauntlet. When the gauntlet sends power through these modules, it activates the spell the way it would for a wizard. It's a bit of a brute force solution, but it works. I still like to flavor spells as techy related as I can and still have it fit the world we're in, but there are some spells where it's just too hard to do. For those spells, I just use this method!
As far as concentration goes, the process is still unstable and some effects require a constant monitoring; she has to split her attention between correcting the energy flow to keep the spell up and interacting around her. Her Mind Sharpener infusion is a "battery" with a few charges in it that can keep the energy flowing until she can focus again.
Flavorwise she's my most fun character to play, and since I've never played a wizard that used a component pouch, it made a fun idea to give one to the artificer.
Well if you’ve homebrewed all of that, why not go the extra few inches and simply delete the word “incapacitated” from the class feature description and replace so it reads:
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