Armorer is a defensive tank. Between Sanctuary, Blur and Thunder Gauntlets, anything you hit will be suffering disadvantage on future attacks, but your damage output stays a bit lower than the Battle Smith. Battle Smith has more weapon options, plus smite(s).
But your defender invokes DIS with it's reaction anyway...
Also you get Shield Spell and artificer already gives you sanctuary and blur so really it's not that much better and battlesmith is better offensively.
Truth is Armorer just got the shaft and it's only really worth it for the versatility of the armor change and extra infusion
I'd def agree lvl's 1-8 the Battle Smith is arguably stronger in terms of both offense, defense, and utility. Although once you get Armor Modifications for the Armorer at lvl 9 I'm inclined to give more credit to the Armorer.
The extra infusions at that point IMO is very powerful with standard Artificers only having 3 active infusions while Armorer's get 5 with a constant +2 additional active infusions from there on out. Being a front line gish character you actually want to use a lot of the infusions on yourself to provide you with more offense and more importantly greater defense. If I was playing a backline Artillerist then I wouldn't need to spend infusion slots for my own defenses giving you some flexibility in which infusions you would get. But that's not the case if you plan to tank. So having those extra infusions really helps you out to make the Artificer much stronger in the higher levels. You'd stack up both your offensive and defensive infusions on yourself while still leaving you room for some more utility based infusions whether on yourself or allies.
All in all I think both subclasses are great. There are stronger tanks out there but I think they both can do the job well and the flavor they each give is something I really appreciate.
Armorer is a defensive tank. Between Sanctuary, Blur and Thunder Gauntlets, anything you hit will be suffering disadvantage on future attacks, but your damage output stays a bit lower than the Battle Smith. Battle Smith has more weapon options, plus smite(s).
But your defender invokes DIS with it's reaction anyway...
Also you get Shield Spell and artificer already gives you sanctuary and blur so really it's not that much better and battlesmith is better offensively.
Truth is Armorer just got the shaft and it's only really worth it for the versatility of the armor change and extra infusion
I'd def agree lvl's 1-8 the Battle Smith is arguably stronger in terms of both offense, defense, and utility. Although once you get Armor Modifications for the Armorer at lvl 9 I'm inclined to give more credit to the Armorer.
The extra infusions at that point IMO is very powerful with standard Artificers only having 3 active infusions while Armorer's get 5 with a constant +2 additional active infusions from there on out. Being a front line gish character you actually want to use a lot of the infusions on yourself to provide you with more offense and more importantly greater defense. If I was playing a backline Artillerist then I wouldn't need to spend infusion slots for my own defenses giving you some flexibility in which infusions you would get. But that's not the case if you plan to tank. So having those extra infusions really helps you out to make the Artificer much stronger in the higher levels. You'd stack up both your offensive and defensive infusions on yourself while still leaving you room for some more utility based infusions whether on yourself or allies.
All in all I think both subclasses are great. There are stronger tanks out there but I think they both can do the job well and the flavor they each give is something I really appreciate.
The extra infusions are great. On the other hand the BS gets an extra infusion that is basically a Bonus action attack or help action, can flank and on later levels provide extra healing and/or damage. Having an extra meatshield in front of your squishier party members is also nice. But yeah, it's pretty even-Steven... :)
Armorer is a defensive tank. Between Sanctuary, Blur and Thunder Gauntlets, anything you hit will be suffering disadvantage on future attacks, but your damage output stays a bit lower than the Battle Smith. Battle Smith has more weapon options, plus smite(s).
But your defender invokes DIS with it's reaction anyway...
Also you get Shield Spell and artificer already gives you sanctuary and blur so really it's not that much better and battlesmith is better offensively.
Truth is Armorer just got the shaft and it's only really worth it for the versatility of the armor change and extra infusion
I'd def agree lvl's 1-8 the Battle Smith is arguably stronger in terms of both offense, defense, and utility. Although once you get Armor Modifications for the Armorer at lvl 9 I'm inclined to give more credit to the Armorer.
The extra infusions at that point IMO is very powerful with standard Artificers only having 3 active infusions while Armorer's get 5 with a constant +2 additional active infusions from there on out. Being a front line gish character you actually want to use a lot of the infusions on yourself to provide you with more offense and more importantly greater defense. If I was playing a backline Artillerist then I wouldn't need to spend infusion slots for my own defenses giving you some flexibility in which infusions you would get. But that's not the case if you plan to tank. So having those extra infusions really helps you out to make the Artificer much stronger in the higher levels. You'd stack up both your offensive and defensive infusions on yourself while still leaving you room for some more utility based infusions whether on yourself or allies.
All in all I think both subclasses are great. There are stronger tanks out there but I think they both can do the job well and the flavor they each give is something I really appreciate.
Yeah at level 9 then even off more for sure....I would hazard to say they are pretty darn close at this point on. The rough part is most campaigns are likely to end by 10th level so its hard to invest in a subclass to only see it shine in the last 10% of your campaign.
Now if you are planning on going longer and have gone longer then it is more of a decision.
Havent a clue how long this campaign will run. Will just have to decide at level 3! Leaning towards the Battlesmith at the minute. The extra body will be useful in a party of 4
Havent a clue how long this campaign will run. Will just have to decide at level 3! Leaning towards the Battlesmith at the minute. The extra body will be useful in a party of 4
I haven’t seen people talk about the Armorer’s defensive field yet. Those temp HP can potentially eliminate the need for healing for your artificer, and you can use your first level spells for cure wounds on others if needed. Defensive field plus the high AC and thunder gauntlets can make the Armorer the best tank in 5e. You’ll also get the infiltrator’s versatility. Pick up Sentinel or Heavy Armor Master and you’ll be the M-1 Abrams of your campaign.
As others have said, BS is better offensively, especially before level 9. The SD has its own positional versatility that will help your rogue out for sneak attack, too.
But why not wade in next to your rogue’s target with an Armorer and smack it with the thunder gauntlets so the rogue will be tougher to hit? It’s the disadvantage to attacking the rest of your party that makes the Armorer Guardian model the tankiest. And you can switch to infiltrator when you want ranged damage, which can grant others advantage once you get perfected armor. Every hit can be part of your tank roll or support your party then.
I haven’t seen people talk about the Armorer’s defensive field yet. Those temp HP can potentially eliminate the need for healing for your artificer, and you can use your first level spells for cure wounds on others if needed. Defensive field plus the high AC and thunder gauntlets can make the Armorer the best tank in 5e. You’ll also get the infiltrator’s versatility. Pick up Sentinel or Heavy Armor Master and you’ll be the M-1 Abrams of your campaign.
As others have said, BS is better offensively, especially before level 9. The SD has its own positional versatility that will help your rogue out for sneak attack, too.
But why not wade in next to your rogue’s target with an Armorer and smack it with the thunder gauntlets so the rogue will be tougher to hit? It’s the disadvantage to attacking the rest of your party that makes the Armorer Guardian model the tankiest. And you can switch to infiltrator when you want ranged damage, which can grant others advantage once you get perfected armor. Every hit can be part of your tank roll or support your party then.
If temp HP are your bag the Artillerist is better than the Armorer. Pop out a Protector Eldritch Cannon and you can grant any and every creature of your choice in a 10ft radius 1d8+INT Modifier temp HP, as a Bonus Action, every turn, for an hour. And if the cannon is destroyed you can expend a spell slot to make another.
My L3 Artillerist and his mates are in a battle against overwhelming odds (battle has lasted 1 and a half sessions because the DM made it 6 L3 vs 14 pirates ranging between CR 0.5 and CR 2) and the only reason we have had a chance of winning is because of the temp HP from the Protector every round. Otherwise we would have lost within the first 3-4 rounds easily.
I haven’t seen people talk about the Armorer’s defensive field yet. Those temp HP can potentially eliminate the need for healing for your artificer, and you can use your first level spells for cure wounds on others if needed. Defensive field plus the high AC and thunder gauntlets can make the Armorer the best tank in 5e. You’ll also get the infiltrator’s versatility. Pick up Sentinel or Heavy Armor Master and you’ll be the M-1 Abrams of your campaign.
As others have said, BS is better offensively, especially before level 9. The SD has its own positional versatility that will help your rogue out for sneak attack, too.
But why not wade in next to your rogue’s target with an Armorer and smack it with the thunder gauntlets so the rogue will be tougher to hit? It’s the disadvantage to attacking the rest of your party that makes the Armorer Guardian model the tankiest. And you can switch to infiltrator when you want ranged damage, which can grant others advantage once you get perfected armor. Every hit can be part of your tank roll or support your party then.
If temp HP are your bag the Artillerist is better than the Armorer. Pop out a Protector Eldritch Cannon and you can grant any and every creature of your choice in a 10ft radius 1d8+INT Modifier temp HP, as a Bonus Action, every turn, for an hour. And if the cannon is destroyed you can expend a spell slot to make another.
My L3 Artillerist and his mates are in a battle against overwhelming odds (battle has lasted 1 and a half sessions because the DM made it 6 L3 vs 14 pirates ranging between CR 0.5 and CR 2) and the only reason we have had a chance of winning is because of the temp HP from the Protector every round. Otherwise we would have lost within the first 3-4 rounds easily.
Yeah the Armorer got nerfed into the ground for the THP....man that ability is terrible now!
I would make it PB per short rest at least. As of now its pretty much worthless.
Nothing wrong with the guardian's THP as a whole but THP have become cheap and plentiful so the value seem small in comparison. I wish it was worded like the abjuration wizard's ward which would be more on point thematically and a slight increase in quality of play for the class by letting it stack with THP.
Actually yeah thats the more fair statement...the other abilities are just crazy good with THP you are right.
THP was another reason why I originally liked the look of the armourer class. While its not massive it is an extra 25 HP at level 5. In the end I just felt that's too few per long rest. Im likely (or hoping!) to get hit that much less due to the steel defender.
The armourer has a bunch of spells for gaining THP. As i'm going to take 2 levels of wizard for war mage im usually going to have 1-2 slots a level above what I can actually cast - which will be used to cast aid, heroism, false life etc
Nothing wrong with the guardian's THP as a whole but THP have become cheap and plentiful so the value seem small in comparison. I wish it was worded like the abjuration wizard's ward which would be more on point thematically and a slight increase in quality of play for the class by letting it stack with THP.
Actually yeah thats the more fair statement...the other abilities are just crazy good with THP you are right.
another slightly off tangent point is how the armorer, and to a lesser extent all artificers, have such high avoidance base line the THPs as a whole are worth more comparatively. It's nothing as easy to calculate as attack rates or spell save chance but the fact they can easily reach the upper soft caps for AC and saves they can get a lot of milage out of small chunks of mitigation.
I'd say both will do it just fine, but Armorer is better for a "pure" tank, and there are a few reasons for this:
Thunder Gauntlets imposes disadvantage on each hit; so with extra attack you can do it to two different enemies, not just one.
While the Guardian's temp HP is a bit weak early on, the way it scales it gets better pretty quickly, so you can soak up a lot more damage.
You can, and should, be layering these defensive abilities on top of Mirror Image, and using Shield only for stuff that sneaks past that; this combo can add a lot to your defence.
Extra infusions just for your armour means you can load up on the defensive infusions. Remember, you don't need to keep both hands free to attack twice with Thunder Gauntlets, so you should also have a shield for five total slots. It might seem selfish to pour five infusions onto yourself, but if you're the one tanking damage then your party has no right to expect you to give them anything else.
It really depends whether you want to be the kind of tank that just sits there and takes the punishment (while hopefully ignoring most of it) or something more mobile. Though you can achieve both as an armorer, as while the guardian is the better tank (thanks to the disadvantage and temp HP), infiltrator can still do the same infusing and spell combo in a pinch, but Battle Smith can work for that too.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I'd say both will do it just fine, but Armorer is better for a "pure" tank, and there are a few reasons for this:
Thunder Gauntlets imposes disadvantage on each hit; so with extra attack you can do it to two different enemies, not just one.
While the Guardian's temp HP is a bit weak early on, the way it scales it gets better pretty quickly, so you can soak up a lot more damage.
You can, and should, be layering these defensive abilities on top of Mirror Image, and using Shield only for stuff that sneaks past that; this combo can add a lot to your defence.
Extra infusions just for your armour means you can load up on the defensive infusions. Remember, you don't need to keep both hands free to attack twice with Thunder Gauntlets, so you should also have a shield for five total slots. It might seem selfish to pour five infusions onto yourself, but if you're the one tanking damage then your party has no right to expect you to give them anything else.
It really depends whether you want to be the kind of tank that just sits there and takes the punishment (while hopefully ignoring most of it) or something more mobile. Though you can achieve both as an armorer, as while the guardian is the better tank (thanks to the disadvantage and temp HP), infiltrator can still do the same infusing and spell combo in a pinch, but Battle Smith can work for that too.
I would make a few points:
1. Armorer does not get Shield spell.....not sure why but it does affect the build a lot I think. When you get the extra infusions at 9th level its not a big deal at all but before that you are likely looking at less situational AC than Battlesmith.
2. While Mirror Image is good it takes an action to activate so you are trading damage for damage avoidance which IMO is an equal or because action economy is so important a loss to your effectiveness. They may not even bother trying to hit you with that spell up and you do not do enough damage to warrant the attention.
3. The gauntlets are nice but the reaction from your defender is almost equal to the bonus you would get from them.
4. Battlesmith build could be more effective at range which is the ultimate defense. If you are putting out high damage from a CBE build from range you might draw an enemy away from others to bring attention to you.
5. You have huge versatility in weapons. Since its your INT that you can use for the weapon as long as its magic you can use a +1 Maul as well as a Repeating Hand Crossbow. Depending on how your are feeling that day and what weapons come your way you can work with a lot of different options.
Overall I feel the Battlesmith is better 3-8 then at 9 they become equal then as you get more powerful options for the armor the armorer pulls ahead late game with the extra infusions.
So really I would think about how long the campaign is and when you plan on stopping to decide as if you are going the long haul (12+) I would go armorer.
I'd say both will do it just fine, but Armorer is better for a "pure" tank, and there are a few reasons for this:
Thunder Gauntlets imposes disadvantage on each hit; so with extra attack you can do it to two different enemies, not just one.
While the Guardian's temp HP is a bit weak early on, the way it scales it gets better pretty quickly, so you can soak up a lot more damage.
You can, and should, be layering these defensive abilities on top of Mirror Image, and using Shield only for stuff that sneaks past that; this combo can add a lot to your defence.
Extra infusions just for your armour means you can load up on the defensive infusions. Remember, you don't need to keep both hands free to attack twice with Thunder Gauntlets, so you should also have a shield for five total slots. It might seem selfish to pour five infusions onto yourself, but if you're the one tanking damage then your party has no right to expect you to give them anything else.
It really depends whether you want to be the kind of tank that just sits there and takes the punishment (while hopefully ignoring most of it) or something more mobile. Though you can achieve both as an armorer, as while the guardian is the better tank (thanks to the disadvantage and temp HP), infiltrator can still do the same infusing and spell combo in a pinch, but Battle Smith can work for that too.
I would make a few points:
1. Armorer does not get Shield spell.....not sure why but it does affect the build a lot I think. When you get the extra infusions at 9th level its not a big deal at all but before that you are likely looking at less situational AC than Battlesmith.
2. While Mirror Image is good it takes an action to activate so you are trading damage for damage avoidance which IMO is an equal or because action economy is so important a loss to your effectiveness. They may not even bother trying to hit you with that spell up and you do not do enough damage to warrant the attention.
3. The gauntlets are nice but the reaction from your defender is almost equal to the bonus you would get from them.
4. Battlesmith build could be more effective at range which is the ultimate defense. If you are putting out high damage from a CBE build from range you might draw an enemy away from others to bring attention to you.
5. You have huge versatility in weapons. Since its your INT that you can use for the weapon as long as its magic you can use a +1 Maul as well as a Repeating Hand Crossbow. Depending on how your are feeling that day and what weapons come your way you can work with a lot of different options.
Overall I feel the Battlesmith is better 3-8 then at 9 they become equal then as you get more powerful options for the armor the armorer pulls ahead late game with the extra infusions.
So really I would think about how long the campaign is and when you plan on stopping to decide as if you are going the long haul (12+) I would go armorer.
It may have already been mentioned, but for the Battlesmith at level 9 you also get access to the spell Aura of Vitality as well as the Arcane Jolt feature, which give you ways to pass out healing to yourself or other members of the party. Aura of Vitality has its drawbacks. It uses a bonus action so cannot synergize with commanding your Steel Defender and requires concentration. That being said, if your Steel Defender goes down in the middle of a fight, being able to dedicate your bonus action every turn to healing will make you last longer in the middle of a fight as well (as long as you can keep concentration up, which you should be able to since Artificers get Con save proficiency).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
1. Armorer does not get Shield spell.....not sure why but it does affect the build a lot I think. When you get the extra infusions at 9th level its not a big deal at all but before that you are likely looking at less situational AC than Battlesmith.
Dangit, why on earth did I think they had Shield? Ah well, I've corrected my post. Mirror Image is the important one anyway, but if you can add Shield somehow it's a good one to have as well.
2. While Mirror Image is good it takes an action to activate so you are trading damage for damage avoidance which IMO is an equal or because action economy is so important a loss to your effectiveness. They may not even bother trying to hit you with that spell up and you do not do enough damage to warrant the attention.
Damage is secondary to damage avoidance on a tank; your primary purpose is to take enemy attacks. The downside of casting mirror image will actually be that you're not dishing out disadvantage with the gauntlets, but if enemies are attacking you already then it's no big deal at the start or even during the fight. Ideally though you'd cast it on the way into battle, as it rarely lasts the full minute if you're tanking properly.
3. The gauntlets are nice but the reaction from your defender is almost equal to the bonus you would get from them.
The defender can only do half of what the 5th level Guardian can do, that's not "almost equal". Again, the primary purpose of a tank is to take enemy attacks, this is why a Barbarian's best tanking ability isn't Rage, but is actually Reckless Attack. You want as many enemies as possible attacking you, so that they're not attacking the rest of your party.
For the ultimate Artificer tank you really want to take two levels in Barbarian, but I'd still prefer Guardian for that, as while any Artificer with two levels in Barbarian can use Reckless Attack, only the Guardian can be giving two enemies double the reason to go for you and not your allies.
4. Battlesmith build could be more effective at range which is the ultimate defense. If you are putting out high damage from a CBE build from range you might draw an enemy away from others to bring attention to you.
The OP specifically asked about tanking; you're not tanking if you're at range while the enemies run amock through the rest of your party unchecked. You could maybe fill the gap with some control but that's really tanking as I think most people would mean it.
Tanking is more about party defence than personal defence.
5. You have huge versatility in weapons. Since its your INT that you can use for the weapon as long as its magic you can use a +1 Maul as well as a Repeating Hand Crossbow. Depending on how your are feeling that day and what weapons come your way you can work with a lot of different options.
Armorers can also use Intelligence for their special weapons; as a Guardian you absolutely want to be using the Thunder Gauntlets all the time. Again, with a shield, and with temp HP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
1. Armorer does not get Shield spell.....not sure why but it does affect the build a lot I think. When you get the extra infusions at 9th level its not a big deal at all but before that you are likely looking at less situational AC than Battlesmith.
Dangit, why on earth did I think they had Shield? Ah well, I've corrected my post. Mirror Image is the important one anyway, but if you can add Shield somehow it's a good one to have as well.
2. While Mirror Image is good it takes an action to activate so you are trading damage for damage avoidance which IMO is an equal or because action economy is so important a loss to your effectiveness. They may not even bother trying to hit you with that spell up and you do not do enough damage to warrant the attention.
Damage is secondary to damage avoidance on a tank; your primary purpose is to take enemy attacks. The downside of casting mirror image will actually be that you're not dishing out disadvantage with the gauntlets, but if enemies are attacking you already then it's no big deal at the start or even during the fight. Ideally though you'd cast it on the way into battle, as it rarely lasts the full minute if you're tanking properly.
3. The gauntlets are nice but the reaction from your defender is almost equal to the bonus you would get from them.
The defender can only do half of what the 5th level Guardian can do, that's not "almost equal". Again, the primary purpose of a tank is to take enemy attacks, this is why a Barbarian's best tanking ability isn't Rage, but is actually Reckless Attack. You want as many enemies as possible attacking you, so that they're not attacking the rest of your party.
For the ultimate Artificer tank you really want to take two levels in Barbarian, but I'd still prefer Guardian for that, as while any Artificer with two levels in Barbarian can use Reckless Attack, only the Guardian can be giving two enemies double the reason to go for you and not your allies.
4. Battlesmith build could be more effective at range which is the ultimate defense. If you are putting out high damage from a CBE build from range you might draw an enemy away from others to bring attention to you.
The OP specifically asked about tanking; you're not tanking if you're at range while the enemies run amock through the rest of your party unchecked. You could maybe fill the gap with some control but that's really tanking as I think most people would mean it.
Tanking is more about party defence than personal defence.
5. You have huge versatility in weapons. Since its your INT that you can use for the weapon as long as its magic you can use a +1 Maul as well as a Repeating Hand Crossbow. Depending on how your are feeling that day and what weapons come your way you can work with a lot of different options.
Armorers can also use Intelligence for their special weapons; as a Guardian you absolutely want to be using the Thunder Gauntlets all the time. Again, with a shield, and with temp HP.
For Armorer you can't use INT for ALL magic weapons was my point. So you can be versatile and be equally as good in melee and range. Granted it means you would have to find a magic weapon likely but still a bit plus for Battlesmith.
For mirror image my point is why would they want to hit you if they would have trouble doing so?
Barb is a good example... reckless incentives them to hit you because they get ADV
Mirror image kinda does the opposite. They don't want to try to hit you because they could miss
Granted this would mostly be intelligent enemies but still a point to consider.
Its one of those spells I see controllers use a lot to actively discourage people trying to attack them. The wizard casts it on top a big time concentration controller spell like Hypnotic Pattern.
I'd def agree lvl's 1-8 the Battle Smith is arguably stronger in terms of both offense, defense, and utility. Although once you get Armor Modifications for the Armorer at lvl 9 I'm inclined to give more credit to the Armorer.
The extra infusions at that point IMO is very powerful with standard Artificers only having 3 active infusions while Armorer's get 5 with a constant +2 additional active infusions from there on out. Being a front line gish character you actually want to use a lot of the infusions on yourself to provide you with more offense and more importantly greater defense. If I was playing a backline Artillerist then I wouldn't need to spend infusion slots for my own defenses giving you some flexibility in which infusions you would get. But that's not the case if you plan to tank. So having those extra infusions really helps you out to make the Artificer much stronger in the higher levels. You'd stack up both your offensive and defensive infusions on yourself while still leaving you room for some more utility based infusions whether on yourself or allies.
All in all I think both subclasses are great. There are stronger tanks out there but I think they both can do the job well and the flavor they each give is something I really appreciate.
The extra infusions are great. On the other hand the BS gets an extra infusion that is basically a Bonus action attack or help action, can flank and on later levels provide extra healing and/or damage. Having an extra meatshield in front of your squishier party members is also nice. But yeah, it's pretty even-Steven... :)
Yeah at level 9 then even off more for sure....I would hazard to say they are pretty darn close at this point on. The rough part is most campaigns are likely to end by 10th level so its hard to invest in a subclass to only see it shine in the last 10% of your campaign.
Now if you are planning on going longer and have gone longer then it is more of a decision.
Havent a clue how long this campaign will run. Will just have to decide at level 3! Leaning towards the Battlesmith at the minute. The extra body will be useful in a party of 4
Seems like a fair approach.
I haven’t seen people talk about the Armorer’s defensive field yet. Those temp HP can potentially eliminate the need for healing for your artificer, and you can use your first level spells for cure wounds on others if needed. Defensive field plus the high AC and thunder gauntlets can make the Armorer the best tank in 5e. You’ll also get the infiltrator’s versatility. Pick up Sentinel or Heavy Armor Master and you’ll be the M-1 Abrams of your campaign.
As others have said, BS is better offensively, especially before level 9. The SD has its own positional versatility that will help your rogue out for sneak attack, too.
But why not wade in next to your rogue’s target with an Armorer and smack it with the thunder gauntlets so the rogue will be tougher to hit? It’s the disadvantage to attacking the rest of your party that makes the Armorer Guardian model the tankiest. And you can switch to infiltrator when you want ranged damage, which can grant others advantage once you get perfected armor. Every hit can be part of your tank roll or support your party then.
If temp HP are your bag the Artillerist is better than the Armorer. Pop out a Protector Eldritch Cannon and you can grant any and every creature of your choice in a 10ft radius 1d8+INT Modifier temp HP, as a Bonus Action, every turn, for an hour. And if the cannon is destroyed you can expend a spell slot to make another.
My L3 Artillerist and his mates are in a battle against overwhelming odds (battle has lasted 1 and a half sessions because the DM made it 6 L3 vs 14 pirates ranging between CR 0.5 and CR 2) and the only reason we have had a chance of winning is because of the temp HP from the Protector every round. Otherwise we would have lost within the first 3-4 rounds easily.
Yeah the Armorer got nerfed into the ground for the THP....man that ability is terrible now!
I would make it PB per short rest at least. As of now its pretty much worthless.
Actually yeah thats the more fair statement...the other abilities are just crazy good with THP you are right.
I did look at the advantage of the Thunder Gauntlets and was originally one of the reasons I was going to go armourer.
but I then noticed the Steel Defender gets the same ability, with 4 advantages that i can see.
1. It doesn't need to hit, just needs to be within 5ft
2. It can also be applied to the Artificer.
3. it can be used to aid another PC that isn't adjacent to the Artificer as the Steel Defender can move.
4. You still get to equip magic weapons
Disadvantage is it applies to only one attack roll, which is less useful as enemies gain access to 2-3 attacks
Frankly the only reason to take Armorer is the fact you get 2 more infusion slots (granted they have to be on the armor) at level 9 which is amazing.
THP was another reason why I originally liked the look of the armourer class. While its not massive it is an extra 25 HP at level 5. In the end I just felt that's too few per long rest. Im likely (or hoping!) to get hit that much less due to the steel defender.
The armourer has a bunch of spells for gaining THP. As i'm going to take 2 levels of wizard for war mage im usually going to have 1-2 slots a level above what I can actually cast - which will be used to cast aid, heroism, false life etc
ooo, that is a really good point.
I'd say both will do it just fine, but Armorer is better for a "pure" tank, and there are a few reasons for this:
, and using Shield only for stuff that sneaks past that; this combo can add a lot to your defence.
It really depends whether you want to be the kind of tank that just sits there and takes the punishment (while hopefully ignoring most of it) or something more mobile. Though you can achieve both as an armorer, as while the guardian is the better tank (thanks to the disadvantage and temp HP), infiltrator can still do the same infusing and spell combo in a pinch, but Battle Smith can work for that too.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I would make a few points:
1. Armorer does not get Shield spell.....not sure why but it does affect the build a lot I think. When you get the extra infusions at 9th level its not a big deal at all but before that you are likely looking at less situational AC than Battlesmith.
2. While Mirror Image is good it takes an action to activate so you are trading damage for damage avoidance which IMO is an equal or because action economy is so important a loss to your effectiveness. They may not even bother trying to hit you with that spell up and you do not do enough damage to warrant the attention.
3. The gauntlets are nice but the reaction from your defender is almost equal to the bonus you would get from them.
4. Battlesmith build could be more effective at range which is the ultimate defense. If you are putting out high damage from a CBE build from range you might draw an enemy away from others to bring attention to you.
5. You have huge versatility in weapons. Since its your INT that you can use for the weapon as long as its magic you can use a +1 Maul as well as a Repeating Hand Crossbow. Depending on how your are feeling that day and what weapons come your way you can work with a lot of different options.
Overall I feel the Battlesmith is better 3-8 then at 9 they become equal then as you get more powerful options for the armor the armorer pulls ahead late game with the extra infusions.
So really I would think about how long the campaign is and when you plan on stopping to decide as if you are going the long haul (12+) I would go armorer.
It may have already been mentioned, but for the Battlesmith at level 9 you also get access to the spell Aura of Vitality as well as the Arcane Jolt feature, which give you ways to pass out healing to yourself or other members of the party. Aura of Vitality has its drawbacks. It uses a bonus action so cannot synergize with commanding your Steel Defender and requires concentration. That being said, if your Steel Defender goes down in the middle of a fight, being able to dedicate your bonus action every turn to healing will make you last longer in the middle of a fight as well (as long as you can keep concentration up, which you should be able to since Artificers get Con save proficiency).
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Dangit, why on earth did I think they had Shield? Ah well, I've corrected my post. Mirror Image is the important one anyway, but if you can add Shield somehow it's a good one to have as well.
Damage is secondary to damage avoidance on a tank; your primary purpose is to take enemy attacks. The downside of casting mirror image will actually be that you're not dishing out disadvantage with the gauntlets, but if enemies are attacking you already then it's no big deal at the start or even during the fight. Ideally though you'd cast it on the way into battle, as it rarely lasts the full minute if you're tanking properly.
The defender can only do half of what the 5th level Guardian can do, that's not "almost equal". Again, the primary purpose of a tank is to take enemy attacks, this is why a Barbarian's best tanking ability isn't Rage, but is actually Reckless Attack. You want as many enemies as possible attacking you, so that they're not attacking the rest of your party.
For the ultimate Artificer tank you really want to take two levels in Barbarian, but I'd still prefer Guardian for that, as while any Artificer with two levels in Barbarian can use Reckless Attack, only the Guardian can be giving two enemies double the reason to go for you and not your allies.
The OP specifically asked about tanking; you're not tanking if you're at range while the enemies run amock through the rest of your party unchecked. You could maybe fill the gap with some control but that's really tanking as I think most people would mean it.
Tanking is more about party defence than personal defence.
Armorers can also use Intelligence for their special weapons; as a Guardian you absolutely want to be using the Thunder Gauntlets all the time. Again, with a shield, and with temp HP.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
For Armorer you can't use INT for ALL magic weapons was my point. So you can be versatile and be equally as good in melee and range. Granted it means you would have to find a magic weapon likely but still a bit plus for Battlesmith.
For mirror image my point is why would they want to hit you if they would have trouble doing so?
Barb is a good example... reckless incentives them to hit you because they get ADV
Mirror image kinda does the opposite. They don't want to try to hit you because they could miss
Granted this would mostly be intelligent enemies but still a point to consider.
Its one of those spells I see controllers use a lot to actively discourage people trying to attack them. The wizard casts it on top a big time concentration controller spell like Hypnotic Pattern.