Half true. The artificer activates it, but only the Force Ballista specifies a ranged attack.
Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it.
Yes, I'm aware of the rules for Eldritch Cannon. Where's the rule that says that the cannon has disadvantage on an attack if the Artificer does?
Most spells that require attack rolls involve ranged attacks. Remember that you have disadvantage on a ranged attack roll if you are within 5 feet of a hostile creature that can see you and that isn't incapacitated.
Right there in the basic rules? If you are holding it, that is. Obviously if it is walking under its own power and you are aggro-free, then it is just the cannon.
The cannon being classified as an object does not decouple it from the attack rules, right?
The cannon is not a spell. And the ability states that you use a bonus action to trigger the cannon to activate, not that you use a bonus action to attack with the cannon. It's pretty clear that it's the cannon that's acting.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The fact that it uses your spell attack modifier doesn't mean you're making the attack. The Battle Smith's Steel Defender also uses the character's spell attack modifier for its attacks, as does a Wildfire Druid's Wildfire Spirit and a Beast Master Ranger's Primal Companion. That just insures that it's got an attack that scales with the character and is easy to calculate.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And again, you're not making the attack, the cannon is. And absolutely nothing in any rules you've pointed to have stated that the cannon is at disadvantage on an attack just because you would be if you were the one making the attack.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What is everyone choosing for their artificer cantrips and why?
My artillerist is about to reach level 10 and I'm trying to decide on a third cantrip.
Currently using Firebolt (ranged attack) and Shocking grasp (melee attack)....
I'm thinking Frostbite, but could be persuaded in other directions....
Discuss!
I avoid shocking grasp like a trap, but then again, an Artilerist wants to avoid melee like the plague. Ray of frost it always one of my go-tos. And I think Thorn Whip is one of the most useful combat Cantrips they have access to. It does damage, and battlefield control, and it’s useful outside of combat too. And since it’s also a melee attack it can still work as your just in case. Wasting a slot on Shocking Grasp “just in case” you need it is a no-win. Better to take something you know you can use elsewise and also covers your “just in case” too is win-win.
But if you don’t have any utility Cantrips like Prestidigitation, Mending, or Mage Hand, then that would be my priority. But that’s me.
The description of the ability clearly states that you use a bonus action to activate the cannon. Not that you use a bonus action to make an attack with the cannon. Objects can make attacks, that's how things like crossbow traps work.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The description of the ability clearly states that you use a bonus action to activate the cannon. Not that you use a bonus action to make an attack with the cannon. Objects can make attacks, that's how things like crossbow traps work.
That much is correct the bonus action is to activate the cannon.
However, The text for the Force Ballista's Activation:
Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 force damage, and if the target is a creature, it is pushed up to 5 feet away from the cannon.
Does not state that the cannon is making the attack. Instead it uses the english imperative statement "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon"
Although the main feature of sentences in the imperative is that they have no grammatical subject, they do have an understood subject, ‘you’.
The one making the ranged spell attack is "you" and in the entire section for the artillerist subclass "you" is referring to the artillerist.
"You" are not the Eldritch Cannon, "you" are an artillerist. Thus the Eldritch Cannon is not making the attack. Therefore as part of your bonus action to activate the cannon "you" are making a spell attack.
The description of the ability clearly states that you use a bonus action to activate the cannon. Not that you use a bonus action to make an attack with the cannon. Objects can make attacks, that's how things like crossbow traps work.
That much is correct the bonus action is to activate the cannon.
However, The text for the Force Ballista's Activation:
Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 force damage, and if the target is a creature, it is pushed up to 5 feet away from the cannon.
Does not state that the cannon is making the attack. Instead it uses the english imperative statement "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon"
Although the main feature of sentences in the imperative is that they have no grammatical subject, they do have an understood subject, ‘you’.
The one making the ranged spell attack is "you" and in the entire section for the artillerist subclass "you" is referring to the artillerist.
"You" are not the Eldritch Cannon, "you" are an artillerist. Thus the Eldritch Cannon is not making the attack. Therefore as part of your bonus action to activate the cannon "you" are making a spell attack.
You are making it from the Cannon's position. As if the cannon was making it. This means that modifiers to the Cannon's position and not your physical position would apply. They would be made as if you were standing in that spot and the Cannon was your body. Kind of like the Eldritch Knight does with it's Echo.
You are making it from the Cannon's position. As if the cannon was making it. This means that modifiers to the Cannon's position and not your physical position would apply. They would be made as if you were standing in that spot and the Cannon was your body. Kind of like the Eldritch Knight does with it's Echo.
The description of the ability clearly states that you use a bonus action to activate the cannon. Not that you use a bonus action to make an attack with the cannon. Objects can make attacks, that's how things like crossbow traps work.
That much is correct the bonus action is to activate the cannon.
However, The text for the Force Ballista's Activation:
Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon, at one creature or object within 120 feet of it. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 force damage, and if the target is a creature, it is pushed up to 5 feet away from the cannon.
Does not state that the cannon is making the attack. Instead it uses the english imperative statement "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon"
Although the main feature of sentences in the imperative is that they have no grammatical subject, they do have an understood subject, ‘you’.
The one making the ranged spell attack is "you" and in the entire section for the artillerist subclass "you" is referring to the artillerist.
"You" are not the Eldritch Cannon, "you" are an artillerist. Thus the Eldritch Cannon is not making the attack. Therefore as part of your bonus action to activate the cannon "you" are making a spell attack.
You are making it from the Cannon's position. As if the cannon was making it. This means that modifiers to the Cannon's position and not your physical position would apply. They would be made as if you were standing in that spot and the Cannon was your body. Kind of like the Eldritch Knight does with it's Echo.
Nothing in the rules of the echo knight or artillerist dictate that the attacks are treated as if the object is making them, only that it originates from that location. Sort of if the EK is shooting a bow but runs out of arrows they couldn't attack even if the echo's location contains them. It's a causation chain/flow chart. The attack must be 'made' prior to relocating it to the objects space to be projected to prevent breaking the flow. If you reverse it you would then have the question(s) the entire attack resolution chain.
Both the Echo and artillerist are probably the most complex player options when it comes to specific interactions. they function in that area between attack rolls, target selection, and resolution while also using temporary magical objects that are equally complex in how they work. Both could have used a final edit before print.
This is wrong.
This is wrong because while these things are magical items. These things are magical items only in the sense that the rules say they are. They are extensions of the character given limited physical form with limited capability. It is you making the attack as if they did it using your supplies because They are a part of you. They are a secondary physical representation of you that you can act as in addition to your physical body. They are Shcroddinger's magical items. They only exist in the sense of taking up a space for you and existing because of you and have limited rules to what they can do and what can affect them as an item but everything else is entirely as a prat of the action economy. They can't exist without you and only exist when you will them to.
Your looking at them as if they are completely seperate entities when you talk about incorrect idea's such as their own ammunition that can run out and such. They do not possess such because they are just physical stand in's and part of you. The Echo Knight cannot do anything you don't tell it to, it can't run out of ammo because it doesn't have it, you do and it draws entirely off of your resources and action economy. This is also true of the Canons. The whole argument that they have their own ammunition would only apply if they were wholely their own entities. They are not. Much like the Echo Knight the Canon's are set of particular abilities of your character with the activation requirement that this item be manifest and that these abilities can only be used from the location of this temporary item potentially split from your person. You make the attack. You use your resources and action economy, But the attack effectively comes from these extension objects.
Even if another person were to pick up these items. These items cannot work without you. Because they are a part of you and wholely created because of your class abilities. If they were true items they would have entirely their own functions. They do not. You are acting from their position and you are Acting as if you were them for that moment to give them any functionality. Acting as Them does not in any way shift to their stats or any of this mental gymnastics that people are doing. Acting as them is you, using your stats, your action economy, and your Resources to make them seem to do something from where they are at. That is all.
By the Way Echo and Artillerist aren't even close to the most complex player options when it comes to specific interactions. They are actually less complex than the pet classes like the Steel Defender and the Beast Master. These are far more complex because they not only use up part of your action economy but also have their own action economy and semi-autonomy which is far more complex. Because Your not just making an item do something like move or fire or blast out a temproary field to give temp hp. Your actually intertwining two entities That both do and do not have seperate turns at the same time with intermingled identities and individual permanency that is not entirely co-dependent on each other.
It takes a lot more to deal with all of the interactions between semi-autonomous companion and Player Character than it does these semi-permanent items with very limited functionality that function as stand in props and secondary physical forms working entirely off of a single characters abilities.
These kinds of items like the Canon and the Echo have long existed and they aren't as complicated as everybody is making them. They've existed in a variety of things from various illusions to magical items. Many on going magical spells have effects that only move and/or function when you use your action economy to do so. The only difference between these kinds of spells that we've been using for a long time. Is these ones have physical representations and can be Dispelled through straight damage and take up space in exchange for not requiring concentration and not being dispellable or counterspellable by magical spells. These Cannons are effectively just spiritual Weapon, Call Lightning, Flaming Sphere, or what are probably dozens of other effects given the twist of a physical form that your controlling.
And like Spiritual Weapon or Call Lightning. When these attack these are using your stats and your making the attacks, But it's as if you were the spiritual weapon in that moment and doing it's damage with it's "attack animation" and it's movement despite the fact that it's wholely you making the attack. Or that you are the one making the attack to force the save but it's a bolt of lightning coming from the cloud for Call lightning Instead of your physical body making the attack and the attack is blocked by things that give intervening protection from the sky rather than where your physical body is standing.
Nothing about the way these cannons or the way Echo is actually new. They are just more or less multi-faceted spells. That is it. When attacks are made they are stand in's for you to make the attack as if you were that thing. Which is why the Force Ballista does a 2d8 shot of force damage using your stats and resources even though your likely not using anything that actually does 2d8 force damage other than the ability of the canon. And This is exactly why the Echo makes attacks using your stats and resources effectively but cannot run out of ammo and has no ammo of it's own and only you can run out of that ammo.
All The Echo is, is primarily a physical representation of a repeatedly usable momentary teleportation spell/device flavored as a not quite there alternate version of yourself that you can mentally move around and eventually interpose between two attacking opponents with unique casting and dispelling properties. But the way it looks to everybody else is that the Echo shot somebody or hit somebody. (in some ways this is one of the Most OP cantrips in the game exclusively found on a non-spell caster).
All the Force Ballista effectively is, is a movable and repeatable single ray force spell with a range of 120 feet with unique positioning and dispelling properties.
All the Flame Thrower Canon is, is a movable and repeatedly usable flaming hands spell with unique positioning and dispelling properties.
All the Protector Cannon is, is a movable and repeatedly usable AoE Temp HP spell with unique positioning and dispelling properties.
That's all these functions really are. They are magical items to some extent for purposes of dispelling them (almost entirely in the form of anti-magic zones and object destruction) and taking up space. But they are just uniquely flavored class abilities in any other way than that. They are not complicated. People make them complicated for no good reason and try to assign them a bunch of attributes that they don't actually have.
They in and of themselves are not complex, And really nothing about the Artillerist Cannons is complex even outside of that. The Echo knight is the Same thing and is only slightly more complex in that it's primarily a utility function that can be used to make attacks, And that is always a bit more complex than simple straight forward Attacking/Healing spell effects like the Artillerist canon. But that's basically the limit to it's complexity.
All the rest of the Complexity is usually forced upon these things, As often as Not by people trying to abuse them to get more out of them than they really can. Like attempting to force the positional situations of your physical body onto them despite the fact that they specify doing things from the Position of the Canon or the Echo, Usually to take advantage of some positional modifier like obscuring effects or cover to increase the combat capability of said Cannon, or Echo. Though Sometimes it is also used to argue enforcing a negative positional modifier that doesn't actually apply onto the situation instead.
Thornwhip also benefits from Spell Sniper, and if you can add in a terrain effect like Spike Growth or Stone Spikes you can really rack up the extra damage. Particularly in conjunction with the force bolt cannon.
I don’t think it can because it’s melee.
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Thornwhip also benefits from Spell Sniper, and if you can add in a terrain effect like Spike Growth or Stone Spikes you can really rack up the extra damage. Particularly in conjunction with the force bolt cannon.
I don’t think it can because it’s melee.
Spell Sniper doesn't actually care. It simply doubles the range of all spells that make an attack roll.
So it does nothing for self because double of self is self, and it doesn't affect touch because double touch is still touch. But for anything that says any kind of range from 5' and above and makes an attack roll does apply.
Which makes thorn whip effective within 60 feet. But Doesn't effect Green Flame Blade for example because despite technically effecting a person 5' from you it's range is listed as self and channeled through your weapon and it doesn't increase the distance green flame blade can jump to a second target because that's technically not the range of the spell but just the range of the rider. (though I have seen a few argue that the rider's distance should be 10' with spell sniper)
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Right there in the basic rules? If you are holding it, that is. Obviously if it is walking under its own power and you are aggro-free, then it is just the cannon.
The cannon being classified as an object does not decouple it from the attack rules, right?
The cannon is not a spell. And the ability states that you use a bonus action to trigger the cannon to activate, not that you use a bonus action to attack with the cannon. It's pretty clear that it's the cannon that's acting.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The fact that it uses your spell attack modifier doesn't mean you're making the attack. The Battle Smith's Steel Defender also uses the character's spell attack modifier for its attacks, as does a Wildfire Druid's Wildfire Spirit and a Beast Master Ranger's Primal Companion. That just insures that it's got an attack that scales with the character and is easy to calculate.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And again, you're not making the attack, the cannon is. And absolutely nothing in any rules you've pointed to have stated that the cannon is at disadvantage on an attack just because you would be if you were the one making the attack.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I avoid shocking grasp like a trap, but then again, an Artilerist wants to avoid melee like the plague. Ray of frost it always one of my go-tos. And I think Thorn Whip is one of the most useful combat Cantrips they have access to. It does damage, and battlefield control, and it’s useful outside of combat too. And since it’s also a melee attack it can still work as your just in case. Wasting a slot on Shocking Grasp “just in case” you need it is a no-win. Better to take something you know you can use elsewise and also covers your “just in case” too is win-win.
But if you don’t have any utility Cantrips like Prestidigitation, Mending, or Mage Hand, then that would be my priority. But that’s me.
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The description of the ability clearly states that you use a bonus action to activate the cannon. Not that you use a bonus action to make an attack with the cannon. Objects can make attacks, that's how things like crossbow traps work.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Some traps actually do make attack rolls.
That much is correct the bonus action is to activate the cannon.
However, The text for the Force Ballista's Activation:
Does not state that the cannon is making the attack. Instead it uses the english imperative statement "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon"
Reference: https://grammar.collinsdictionary.com/us/easy-learning/the-imperative
The one making the ranged spell attack is "you" and in the entire section for the artillerist subclass "you" is referring to the artillerist.
"You" are not the Eldritch Cannon, "you" are an artillerist.
Thus the Eldritch Cannon is not making the attack.
Therefore as part of your bonus action to activate the cannon "you" are making a spell attack.
You are making it from the Cannon's position. As if the cannon was making it. This means that modifiers to the Cannon's position and not your physical position would apply. They would be made as if you were standing in that spot and the Cannon was your body. Kind of like the Eldritch Knight does with it's Echo.
Fair point. I agree.
This is wrong.
This is wrong because while these things are magical items. These things are magical items only in the sense that the rules say they are. They are extensions of the character given limited physical form with limited capability. It is you making the attack as if they did it using your supplies because They are a part of you. They are a secondary physical representation of you that you can act as in addition to your physical body. They are Shcroddinger's magical items. They only exist in the sense of taking up a space for you and existing because of you and have limited rules to what they can do and what can affect them as an item but everything else is entirely as a prat of the action economy. They can't exist without you and only exist when you will them to.
Your looking at them as if they are completely seperate entities when you talk about incorrect idea's such as their own ammunition that can run out and such. They do not possess such because they are just physical stand in's and part of you. The Echo Knight cannot do anything you don't tell it to, it can't run out of ammo because it doesn't have it, you do and it draws entirely off of your resources and action economy. This is also true of the Canons. The whole argument that they have their own ammunition would only apply if they were wholely their own entities. They are not. Much like the Echo Knight the Canon's are set of particular abilities of your character with the activation requirement that this item be manifest and that these abilities can only be used from the location of this temporary item potentially split from your person. You make the attack. You use your resources and action economy, But the attack effectively comes from these extension objects.
Even if another person were to pick up these items. These items cannot work without you. Because they are a part of you and wholely created because of your class abilities. If they were true items they would have entirely their own functions. They do not. You are acting from their position and you are Acting as if you were them for that moment to give them any functionality. Acting as Them does not in any way shift to their stats or any of this mental gymnastics that people are doing. Acting as them is you, using your stats, your action economy, and your Resources to make them seem to do something from where they are at. That is all.
By the Way Echo and Artillerist aren't even close to the most complex player options when it comes to specific interactions. They are actually less complex than the pet classes like the Steel Defender and the Beast Master. These are far more complex because they not only use up part of your action economy but also have their own action economy and semi-autonomy which is far more complex. Because Your not just making an item do something like move or fire or blast out a temproary field to give temp hp. Your actually intertwining two entities That both do and do not have seperate turns at the same time with intermingled identities and individual permanency that is not entirely co-dependent on each other.
It takes a lot more to deal with all of the interactions between semi-autonomous companion and Player Character than it does these semi-permanent items with very limited functionality that function as stand in props and secondary physical forms working entirely off of a single characters abilities.
These kinds of items like the Canon and the Echo have long existed and they aren't as complicated as everybody is making them. They've existed in a variety of things from various illusions to magical items. Many on going magical spells have effects that only move and/or function when you use your action economy to do so. The only difference between these kinds of spells that we've been using for a long time. Is these ones have physical representations and can be Dispelled through straight damage and take up space in exchange for not requiring concentration and not being dispellable or counterspellable by magical spells. These Cannons are effectively just spiritual Weapon, Call Lightning, Flaming Sphere, or what are probably dozens of other effects given the twist of a physical form that your controlling.
And like Spiritual Weapon or Call Lightning. When these attack these are using your stats and your making the attacks, But it's as if you were the spiritual weapon in that moment and doing it's damage with it's "attack animation" and it's movement despite the fact that it's wholely you making the attack. Or that you are the one making the attack to force the save but it's a bolt of lightning coming from the cloud for Call lightning Instead of your physical body making the attack and the attack is blocked by things that give intervening protection from the sky rather than where your physical body is standing.
Nothing about the way these cannons or the way Echo is actually new. They are just more or less multi-faceted spells. That is it. When attacks are made they are stand in's for you to make the attack as if you were that thing. Which is why the Force Ballista does a 2d8 shot of force damage using your stats and resources even though your likely not using anything that actually does 2d8 force damage other than the ability of the canon. And This is exactly why the Echo makes attacks using your stats and resources effectively but cannot run out of ammo and has no ammo of it's own and only you can run out of that ammo.
All The Echo is, is primarily a physical representation of a repeatedly usable momentary teleportation spell/device flavored as a not quite there alternate version of yourself that you can mentally move around and eventually interpose between two attacking opponents with unique casting and dispelling properties. But the way it looks to everybody else is that the Echo shot somebody or hit somebody. (in some ways this is one of the Most OP cantrips in the game exclusively found on a non-spell caster).
All the Force Ballista effectively is, is a movable and repeatable single ray force spell with a range of 120 feet with unique positioning and dispelling properties.
All the Flame Thrower Canon is, is a movable and repeatedly usable flaming hands spell with unique positioning and dispelling properties.
All the Protector Cannon is, is a movable and repeatedly usable AoE Temp HP spell with unique positioning and dispelling properties.
That's all these functions really are. They are magical items to some extent for purposes of dispelling them (almost entirely in the form of anti-magic zones and object destruction) and taking up space. But they are just uniquely flavored class abilities in any other way than that. They are not complicated. People make them complicated for no good reason and try to assign them a bunch of attributes that they don't actually have.
They in and of themselves are not complex, And really nothing about the Artillerist Cannons is complex even outside of that. The Echo knight is the Same thing and is only slightly more complex in that it's primarily a utility function that can be used to make attacks, And that is always a bit more complex than simple straight forward Attacking/Healing spell effects like the Artillerist canon. But that's basically the limit to it's complexity.
All the rest of the Complexity is usually forced upon these things, As often as Not by people trying to abuse them to get more out of them than they really can. Like attempting to force the positional situations of your physical body onto them despite the fact that they specify doing things from the Position of the Canon or the Echo, Usually to take advantage of some positional modifier like obscuring effects or cover to increase the combat capability of said Cannon, or Echo. Though Sometimes it is also used to argue enforcing a negative positional modifier that doesn't actually apply onto the situation instead.
I don’t think it can because it’s melee.
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No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
Spell Sniper doesn't actually care. It simply doubles the range of all spells that make an attack roll.
So it does nothing for self because double of self is self, and it doesn't affect touch because double touch is still touch. But for anything that says any kind of range from 5' and above and makes an attack roll does apply.
Which makes thorn whip effective within 60 feet. But Doesn't effect Green Flame Blade for example because despite technically effecting a person 5' from you it's range is listed as self and channeled through your weapon and it doesn't increase the distance green flame blade can jump to a second target because that's technically not the range of the spell but just the range of the rider. (though I have seen a few argue that the rider's distance should be 10' with spell sniper)