"Break on a critical miss" is a rule that unfairly punishes numerous classes, without doing anything to the saving throw based classes such as the wizard and sorcerer. My issue with right tool for the job is that you need tinkers tools to actually do it. And, as an artificer, you do not start out with tinkers tools. Why in gods name they would overlook this is entirely beyond me.
@Mythos_ZyZyX on Artificers who use Cobbler's Tools.
There was a thread in the UA section of this forum earlier this year where people discussed the UA form of the Artificer a lot. Somewhere inside they were discussing different 'themes' of artificer based on artisan's tools types. One guy explained that when he DMs, he wants a vague sense of reality, so players wouldn't be allowed to choose just whatever tools they want. Unless they can make it make sense. The example he used was:
Now when you wear these ruby slippers, click the heels together three times and yell "FIREBALL!"
I fell in love with the concept immediately.
Gosh. Now I want to go build a subclass like that. :)
? Did I misunderstand your original prompt? I thought you wre originally saying "because this ability lets me make these tools with 1 hour. Why can't i make portions of these X number of tools, instead, to make something that resembles the thieves tools" To which my answer was, RAW, the ability only lets you create 1 specific item, not portions of various items. Did I understand your original intent there?
Or----If you meant use tinkerer item to make smaller items, and nothing to do with the actual Right Tool ability.. then yeah you could just make the individual scraps. That's just norma Tinker Tools situation (whether those tools are made from Right tool or not. though would be odd considering it requires the tool in the first place-Though I could see a g m l et you scrape together a low quailty tinker set to make a standard one with Right Tool)
Assuming the former. I won't fault a GM who doesn't let you make small portions of multitude of different items with the ability that only lets you make one item. Since, its strictly used to do one explict thing. (if I'm a GM i'm already altering this ability in ways I mentioned in a previous post with the two options)
Nono, not making just parts of the tool, as Unclevertitle mentioned, you could make whole set, then with the set in hand, take the parts of the kit you wanna use, like it lists vials in alchemy kit, paper in the caligropher kit(excuse my spelling, on foreign pc where i cant recheck myself). Cause nothing says once you make the caligropher kit you cant take parts from the kit to do things with :o
There's a subset of DMs (often coinciding with people who run/play AL games) for whom "[X] Tools/Supplies/Kit" counts as one single item with a specific, defined use. Smith's Tools, as an example, is not a collection of useful objects from which anyone with said tools on their person could produce solutions to problems with - they are a black box a character with proficiency can use to make metal objects. That is the sole and entire purpose of Smith's Tools.
You could not, for example, say "my smith's tools, by definition, have a hammer in them, so I don't need to pay the extra gold cost/weight penalty for carrying a 'Hammer' to pound my pitons in, right?" This type of DM would say "No. Smith's tools are used for smithing; they can't be used for other tasks. If you want a general-purpose hammer, you have to buy the 'Hammer' item from the PHB and have it on your person."
It makes no bloody sense at alland is super restrictive and punishing, highly discouraging anyone from carrying any sort of toolkit beyond thieves' tools. According to the type of DM who runs by this rules, that is all to the good, because players should use what the game rules tell them they have to solve problems, not try and jury-rig solutions outside of the rules. Because the rules are the rules, and doing anything outside the rules is a breach of the game.
These DMs, needless to say, have no business running a game with an artificer in it.
Nono, not making just parts of the tool, as Unclevertitle mentioned, you could make whole set, then with the set in hand, take the parts of the kit you wanna use, like it lists vials in alchemy kit, paper in the caligropher kit(excuse my spelling, on foreign pc where i cant recheck myself). Cause nothing says once you make the caligropher kit you cant take parts from the kit to do things with :o
Ah I see. yeah if you happen to make the right kit and have some for sure I could see that. Would be clever usage. Though if you changed the TOol Kit you made presumably the things you took out of it wouold disappear. though not stuff you made with said tools. I assume, not actually sure but thought it said it would disappear when you made new tools.
Would be fun to carry certain tools and scrap meal supplies from them though.
I think It was implemented specifically so the artificer can craft all items, mundane, magical and otherwise.
The rules for tools in the PHB state that proficiency in a tool represents "a broader understanding of the tool" which implies that anyone can use the tool to by making a standard roll using the DMs choice of appropriate skill.
This would still be pretty weak on its own, but artificers gain the ability to craft things for less gold and less time than every other class. Meaning you can give yourself that fun magic item you just think is neat for not much investment following the rules of XGtE crafting a magic item. An artificer has the ability to make any of those items, so long as they have the tool to do it. This ability means your artificer can work on that magic item no matter where your party ends up rather than having to wait specifically for downtime, which from my experience isn't super common unless requested by players beforehand.
That's pretty cool and that's what I think RTftRJ is for and why it is an ability that comes into play at level 10.
Now let's metagame and use it to what I consider to be it's full potential:
First on character creation pick the guild artisan background to get an extra tool proficiency you plan on using early and you don't get from the artificer class.
Second, take the skilled feat at level 4. BAM 3 more tool proficiencies.
Next, take a few levels in bard, just enough to get to expertise (multiclassing in bard may come with extra tool proficiencies as well can't recall). That's in the realm of what the average DM will allow in any game. Now let's see what else you can get away with as an artificer.
For this we look once more to XGtE: Training. Not all DMs will allow this, but most will and if the DM didn't want to use XGtE crafting/training rules, they probably wouldn't want you to be an Artificer in the fist place.
That aside:
Using the rules for training during downtime you can get training in tool proficiencies. Any proficiency... Or if you wanted, all proficiencies. So pick up the rest of the artisan tools you don't have and whatever else you want to if your characters got the time.
At level six for artificers when you use a tool that you have proficiency your proficiency is doubled. So now if you have training, at level 10 you automatically are rolling a +6 to anything you roll. Adding in the fact that you have expertise from Bard (now a level 13 character) it's now a +7. That's not counting your attribute modifiers. That's just base.
Your disguise kit to get past the guard that can see through illusion magic just went from a 9 on die (lower than common guards base perception) to a 16 (good enough to fool most common guards most of the time)
Wanna spike the tavern owners mead with a potion of poison? Poisoners kit.
Don't want to kill him outright but want to slight his business? Brewery kit.
Lost in A dungeon, at sea? Cartography and navigators tools.
Need to butter up a local government official? Play him a song on your lute and roll performance to impress him. Why not? Your roll is automatically increased by 6, musical instruments are tools.
Don't wanna waste a precious cantrip on spare the dying and can't be asked to use a spell slot for anything other than damage/debuffs? Healers kit. Your party members are safe from death as long as your near them.
Wanna make your own superior potions of healing? Herbalism kit.
Need to make a makeshift defendable structure in the middle of some haunted woods so your party can finally get that uninterrupted long rest? Carpenters kit.
Best part, you don't need to prepare for any of this. You have them all on you constantly. At level 10.
In short: Ranges from kinda useful in edgecases to making you a better utility caster than your local wizard and cleric combined. Does it require proper planning? yes. Is it incredibly flexible, depends on how time critical 1 hour is. Can it make you awesome? Depends on your creativity.
This post brought to you by your local rules lawyering metagaming min-maxing DM.
The question I have is if you build something using the right tool for the job feature like the glue from the thinkers tools does the glue vanish when you reuse right tool?
Honestly, this is an excellent question. RAW maybe? RAI most likely not.
I guess a DM could rule that once the glue dries/is applied it stops being part of your toolkit and just a part of whatever two things it was used to join together. Which probably translates to my example of the contract written on temporary paper as well thus making those things no longer part of the tools but instead a permanent thing crafted from the tools.
But that leads to an interesting situation where an Artificer can make actually permanent physical objects from nothing. Even components used for spellcasting.
"Powdered iron" is listed as a common alchemical ingredient in XGE's description of Alchemist's Supplies and powdered iron shows up as a material component in multiple spells.
I'd based on, RAW, say that Healers kit no and herbalism kit yes.
RTftRJ states an artificer can create any "artisan tool" so it would depend on what your DM rules as an artisan.
I'd rule that because anybody can pick up a healers kit and use it it is not an artisan tool, but because herbalism requires proficiency to use it must also count as an artisan tool.
The PHB it has a list of "Artisan's Tools" which doesn't include the Herbalism Kit though Herbalism Kit is listed as a tool. The Healer's Kit is listed under "Adventuring Gear."
Also listed under tools are Land and Water vehicles... it seems kind of ridiculous to magically create a boat in just an hour of tinkering... but I also kind of love it? I mean leave it to an artificer to find a way to engineer a rickshaw to help carry all this extra gold they wouldn't be able to carry otherwise.
Also listed in the tools section: gaming sets and musical instruments.
Good point, I have always thought to use alchemist tools and herbalism kit almost interchangeably (especially because the alchemist supplies really seems like it's supposed to be for making magical potions) but RAW you are correct.
Considering that the herbalism kit was specifically removed from the UA version of the Alchemist, but they kept the alchemist supplies. I feel like RAI is still that they should be able to make the herbalism kit with RTftRJ.
The instruments I just think is funny and would 100% allow just for my own amusement
I have a player who has taken on the role of a bosun on their ship and uses carpenters tools to repair the ship. So far the repairs have not been time critical so I haven't made her roll dice. Tools could use more love in the game. I homebrewed a magical tome "Tommery's Tome of Tactical Tinkering" which allows you to learn how to use tinkers tools in combat against any construct and on a successful "attack roll" with the tools you roll on a random table which will result in damage, slow the construct or apply a condition to the construct. Shame I don't have an artificer to give it to.
Ok, I had some uses for the feature, yeah you can replace the tools if you already buy it, but you can't always get them, maybe if the feature also gcould give you profficiency with the created tool, but oh well. First, I wanted to help our lvl 3 monk with a +1 infusion, but I couldn't "improve his knuckles" right? So I asked DM to use with my feature, to create some leatherworker’s tools, grab some animals' skin, make some gauntlets for our Monk and infuse them so their unarmored strike could be +1 and a magical attack, as we had to deal with como non-magical attack resistance creatures.
In other situation, and this one was like gold to me, I wanted to have more magical items, but I couldn't remove the infuse of my bag of holding, it was way too much important. So I asked DM to use the feature to create Calligrapher Supplies to craft the bag of holding magic formula (I already have the item, the arcana proficiency and some tools to prepare it so what's the problem? and what could go worong?), so I could later create more of those, thanks to having the formula, almost all members in party could eventually get one, and I could proceed to stop using my infusion to keep the first one and so... we saw the possibility to practically get any common magic item, even sell them to get money, DM was kinda getting scared, money madness and full inventory access hack is scary XD (greedisgood 999999 synergy sharpandshiny).
Also, think about it, some campaigns are in forests or in ocean, you won't have too much opportunities to buy any convenient tool, nor the money as you may use it for equipment for your heavy amored party member. Getting access to all artisan tools is awesome, you can always ask DM to access to Poisoner Kit and you know what comes next... poison blades with +1 in the hands of a rogue... muahahaha. Mad Artificer is in the house!
Your real level 3 feature is your subclass and all that it gives you.
Right tool for the job just adds a bit of flavour and ensures that the new tool proficiency you gain with your subclass is never crippled by not having the tools.
It can have some fun little uses every now and again and especially in pure RP situations but essentially it just feels like a way to guarantee that you gain full benefit from your "real" level 3 feature. Its not worthless to be able to suddenly be able to have any tool at all, it can shift social situations to a better level of difficulty if you are able to help people out for example, but really its mostly a flavour thing.
"Artisan tools" is not a specific tool, it's any one set from the list - ie Potters Tools (1gp, 5lbs) is an artisan tool and can be used to make anything else on the list, sure why not - it's magic. Does it use up the tool to create the other tool? It doesn't say it does, so no.
Imagine trade/barter and your spontaneous free 50gp toolkit per hour = profit. Or is there already social systems in place to stop this practice? because there's no mention of how this loophole is dealt with in a semi-magical society. Yes Wizards do similar with their spells.. but this isn't a "magic item" or easy to spot.. or is it? coming up with ad-hoc solutions doesn't solve the overall exploit. questions...
Painters'/Brewers "supplies" - does it include the canvas and paint? can I sell the painting? does the painting vanish?.. questions.... Maybe it doesn't include the ink/paint/paper/raw supplies... but what about the barrel for brewer supplies? questions..
All the bits and pieces of alchemist kit, vials etc - do they vanish? what about the contents?.. questions..
"Break on a critical miss" is a rule that unfairly punishes numerous classes, without doing anything to the saving throw based classes such as the wizard and sorcerer. My issue with right tool for the job is that you need tinkers tools to actually do it. And, as an artificer, you do not start out with tinkers tools. Why in gods name they would overlook this is entirely beyond me.
I think they just assumed that all Artificers will take the Guild Artisan Background.
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It saves me carrying around a lot of different artisan's tools.
@Mythos_ZyZyX on Artificers who use Cobbler's Tools.
There was a thread in the UA section of this forum earlier this year where people discussed the UA form of the Artificer a lot. Somewhere inside they were discussing different 'themes' of artificer based on artisan's tools types. One guy explained that when he DMs, he wants a vague sense of reality, so players wouldn't be allowed to choose just whatever tools they want. Unless they can make it make sense. The example he used was:
Now when you wear these ruby slippers, click the heels together three times and yell "FIREBALL!"
I fell in love with the concept immediately.
Gosh. Now I want to go build a subclass like that. :)
Nono, not making just parts of the tool, as Unclevertitle mentioned, you could make whole set, then with the set in hand, take the parts of the kit you wanna use, like it lists vials in alchemy kit, paper in the caligropher kit(excuse my spelling, on foreign pc where i cant recheck myself). Cause nothing says once you make the caligropher kit you cant take parts from the kit to do things with :o
There's a subset of DMs (often coinciding with people who run/play AL games) for whom "[X] Tools/Supplies/Kit" counts as one single item with a specific, defined use. Smith's Tools, as an example, is not a collection of useful objects from which anyone with said tools on their person could produce solutions to problems with - they are a black box a character with proficiency can use to make metal objects. That is the sole and entire purpose of Smith's Tools.
You could not, for example, say "my smith's tools, by definition, have a hammer in them, so I don't need to pay the extra gold cost/weight penalty for carrying a 'Hammer' to pound my pitons in, right?" This type of DM would say "No. Smith's tools are used for smithing; they can't be used for other tasks. If you want a general-purpose hammer, you have to buy the 'Hammer' item from the PHB and have it on your person."
It makes no bloody sense at alland is super restrictive and punishing, highly discouraging anyone from carrying any sort of toolkit beyond thieves' tools. According to the type of DM who runs by this rules, that is all to the good, because players should use what the game rules tell them they have to solve problems, not try and jury-rig solutions outside of the rules. Because the rules are the rules, and doing anything outside the rules is a breach of the game.
These DMs, needless to say, have no business running a game with an artificer in it.
Please do not contact or message me.
Ah I see. yeah if you happen to make the right kit and have some for sure I could see that. Would be clever usage. Though if you changed the TOol Kit you made presumably the things you took out of it wouold disappear. though not stuff you made with said tools.
I assume, not actually sure but thought it said it would disappear when you made new tools.
Would be fun to carry certain tools and scrap meal supplies from them though.
Here is my opinion on this feature:
I think It was implemented specifically so the artificer can craft all items, mundane, magical and otherwise.
The rules for tools in the PHB state that proficiency in a tool represents "a broader understanding of the tool" which implies that anyone can use the tool to by making a standard roll using the DMs choice of appropriate skill.
This would still be pretty weak on its own, but artificers gain the ability to craft things for less gold and less time than every other class. Meaning you can give yourself that fun magic item you just think is neat for not much investment following the rules of XGtE crafting a magic item. An artificer has the ability to make any of those items, so long as they have the tool to do it. This ability means your artificer can work on that magic item no matter where your party ends up rather than having to wait specifically for downtime, which from my experience isn't super common unless requested by players beforehand.
That's pretty cool and that's what I think RTftRJ is for and why it is an ability that comes into play at level 10.
Now let's metagame and use it to what I consider to be it's full potential:
First on character creation pick the guild artisan background to get an extra tool proficiency you plan on using early and you don't get from the artificer class.
Second, take the skilled feat at level 4. BAM 3 more tool proficiencies.
Next, take a few levels in bard, just enough to get to expertise (multiclassing in bard may come with extra tool proficiencies as well can't recall). That's in the realm of what the average DM will allow in any game. Now let's see what else you can get away with as an artificer.
For this we look once more to XGtE: Training. Not all DMs will allow this, but most will and if the DM didn't want to use XGtE crafting/training rules, they probably wouldn't want you to be an Artificer in the fist place.
That aside:
Using the rules for training during downtime you can get training in tool proficiencies. Any proficiency... Or if you wanted, all proficiencies. So pick up the rest of the artisan tools you don't have and whatever else you want to if your characters got the time.
At level six for artificers when you use a tool that you have proficiency your proficiency is doubled. So now if you have training, at level 10 you automatically are rolling a +6 to anything you roll. Adding in the fact that you have expertise from Bard (now a level 13 character) it's now a +7. That's not counting your attribute modifiers. That's just base.
Your disguise kit to get past the guard that can see through illusion magic just went from a 9 on die (lower than common guards base perception) to a 16 (good enough to fool most common guards most of the time)
Wanna spike the tavern owners mead with a potion of poison? Poisoners kit.
Don't want to kill him outright but want to slight his business? Brewery kit.
Lost in A dungeon, at sea? Cartography and navigators tools.
Need to butter up a local government official? Play him a song on your lute and roll performance to impress him. Why not? Your roll is automatically increased by 6, musical instruments are tools.
Don't wanna waste a precious cantrip on spare the dying and can't be asked to use a spell slot for anything other than damage/debuffs? Healers kit. Your party members are safe from death as long as your near them.
Wanna make your own superior potions of healing? Herbalism kit.
Need to make a makeshift defendable structure in the middle of some haunted woods so your party can finally get that uninterrupted long rest? Carpenters kit.
Best part, you don't need to prepare for any of this. You have them all on you constantly. At level 10.
In short: Ranges from kinda useful in edgecases to making you a better utility caster than your local wizard and cleric combined. Does it require proper planning? yes. Is it incredibly flexible, depends on how time critical 1 hour is. Can it make you awesome? Depends on your creativity.
This post brought to you by your local rules lawyering metagaming min-maxing DM.
Honestly, this is an excellent question. RAW maybe? RAI most likely not.
I guess a DM could rule that once the glue dries/is applied it stops being part of your toolkit and just a part of whatever two things it was used to join together. Which probably translates to my example of the contract written on temporary paper as well thus making those things no longer part of the tools but instead a permanent thing crafted from the tools.
But that leads to an interesting situation where an Artificer can make actually permanent physical objects from nothing. Even components used for spellcasting.
"Powdered iron" is listed as a common alchemical ingredient in XGE's description of Alchemist's Supplies and powdered iron shows up as a material component in multiple spells.
Wait... is a healer's kit something you could produced with right tool for the job?
Or an herbalism kit, which RAW is required to make healing potions?
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I'd based on, RAW, say that Healers kit no and herbalism kit yes.
RTftRJ states an artificer can create any "artisan tool" so it would depend on what your DM rules as an artisan.
I'd rule that because anybody can pick up a healers kit and use it it is not an artisan tool, but because herbalism requires proficiency to use it must also count as an artisan tool.
I'd say that's a fair ruling.
The PHB it has a list of "Artisan's Tools" which doesn't include the Herbalism Kit though Herbalism Kit is listed as a tool.
The Healer's Kit is listed under "Adventuring Gear."
Also listed under tools are Land and Water vehicles... it seems kind of ridiculous to magically create a boat in just an hour of tinkering... but I also kind of love it?
I mean leave it to an artificer to find a way to engineer a rickshaw to help carry all this extra gold they wouldn't be able to carry otherwise.
Also listed in the tools section: gaming sets and musical instruments.
Just tinker up a saxophone why don’t ya? 😂
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Good point, I have always thought to use alchemist tools and herbalism kit almost interchangeably (especially because the alchemist supplies really seems like it's supposed to be for making magical potions) but RAW you are correct.
Considering that the herbalism kit was specifically removed from the UA version of the Alchemist, but they kept the alchemist supplies. I feel like RAI is still that they should be able to make the herbalism kit with RTftRJ.
The instruments I just think is funny and would 100% allow just for my own amusement
I have a player who has taken on the role of a bosun on their ship and uses carpenters tools to repair the ship. So far the repairs have not been time critical so I haven't made her roll dice. Tools could use more love in the game. I homebrewed a magical tome "Tommery's Tome of Tactical Tinkering" which allows you to learn how to use tinkers tools in combat against any construct and on a successful "attack roll" with the tools you roll on a random table which will result in damage, slow the construct or apply a condition to the construct. Shame I don't have an artificer to give it to.
#Opendnd
Ok, I had some uses for the feature, yeah you can replace the tools if you already buy it, but you can't always get them, maybe if the feature also gcould give you profficiency with the created tool, but oh well. First, I wanted to help our lvl 3 monk with a +1 infusion, but I couldn't "improve his knuckles" right? So I asked DM to use with my feature, to create some leatherworker’s tools, grab some animals' skin, make some gauntlets for our Monk and infuse them so their unarmored strike could be +1 and a magical attack, as we had to deal with como non-magical attack resistance creatures.
In other situation, and this one was like gold to me, I wanted to have more magical items, but I couldn't remove the infuse of my bag of holding, it was way too much important. So I asked DM to use the feature to create Calligrapher Supplies to craft the bag of holding magic formula (I already have the item, the arcana proficiency and some tools to prepare it so what's the problem? and what could go worong?), so I could later create more of those, thanks to having the formula, almost all members in party could eventually get one, and I could proceed to stop using my infusion to keep the first one and so... we saw the possibility to practically get any common magic item, even sell them to get money, DM was kinda getting scared, money madness and full inventory access hack is scary XD (greedisgood 999999 synergy sharpandshiny).
Also, think about it, some campaigns are in forests or in ocean, you won't have too much opportunities to buy any convenient tool, nor the money as you may use it for equipment for your heavy amored party member. Getting access to all artisan tools is awesome, you can always ask DM to access to Poisoner Kit and you know what comes next... poison blades with +1 in the hands of a rogue... muahahaha. Mad Artificer is in the house!
Your real level 3 feature is your subclass and all that it gives you.
Right tool for the job just adds a bit of flavour and ensures that the new tool proficiency you gain with your subclass is never crippled by not having the tools.
It can have some fun little uses every now and again and especially in pure RP situations but essentially it just feels like a way to guarantee that you gain full benefit from your "real" level 3 feature. Its not worthless to be able to suddenly be able to have any tool at all, it can shift social situations to a better level of difficulty if you are able to help people out for example, but really its mostly a flavour thing.
This feature raises many questions.
"Artisan tools" is not a specific tool, it's any one set from the list - ie Potters Tools (1gp, 5lbs) is an artisan tool and can be used to make anything else on the list, sure why not - it's magic. Does it use up the tool to create the other tool? It doesn't say it does, so no.
Imagine trade/barter and your spontaneous free 50gp toolkit per hour = profit. Or is there already social systems in place to stop this practice? because there's no mention of how this loophole is dealt with in a semi-magical society. Yes Wizards do similar with their spells.. but this isn't a "magic item" or easy to spot.. or is it? coming up with ad-hoc solutions doesn't solve the overall exploit. questions...
Painters'/Brewers "supplies" - does it include the canvas and paint? can I sell the painting? does the painting vanish?.. questions.... Maybe it doesn't include the ink/paint/paper/raw supplies... but what about the barrel for brewer supplies? questions..
All the bits and pieces of alchemist kit, vials etc - do they vanish? what about the contents?.. questions..