So this came up somewhere else so thought I'd ask here too for more i nput. Preface: I know you can use infusions for focus over tool kits. But. Alchemist cannot if they want INT to damage types.
So, I've been assuming to get the alchemist's lv 5 ability you had to hold the alchemist tool k it. I.e. it takes up a hand and you'd have to take a free action to draw it and or stow it (or an action if you already used item interaction that turn).
But someone else commented that due to the fluff wording on alchemist THE MAGIC OF ARTIFICE section which talks about pulling out gadgets or parts. They stated that the tool kit is more like a component pouch-where you pull out the tool or "constructed item" (fluff) use it and then it goes back. Kind of like non consumed components normally would. Which prompted me to read up on focus and such. There are some focus like Divine Focus which just require it being shown (which is free on a shield/armour) or can be just briefly waved around when its on a necklace etc. But then we have Orbs and Wands, which seemingly are "held" items. THough I can't quite be sure on that--since most of the examples are held Wands and they would be holding the wand to use the spell anyway...
So... Artficier and in specific Alchemist. Do they have to hold their tool kit in hand-i.e. held item with the accompaning action economy? Or is it safe to assume you can have your tool kit on your belt, or bandolier, and its considered free usage like some focus are?
Thoughts or rules references I missed?
Honestly if its like a component pouch that would really be very helpful considering how awkward a lot of the alchemist set up can be. otherwise you'll have to hope for Acquasitiosn Inc's Travel Alchemy Kit for free use (asa focus and as an alchemist/poison kit)
Most artisans’ tools aren’t a single object. You’re not proficient with “a hammer”; you’re proficient with smith’s tools. So when you use a tool to cast a spell, it’s not that you just have a single magic hammer that you wave. Which elements of your tool are you using? What are you producing that creates the effect? Consider a few ideas…
Tinker’s Tools. This is a general catchall, as you can justify almost any sort of odd gadget with tinker’s tools. When using tinker’s tools, the idea isn’t that you’re producing your effect with the tools themselves (unless you’re casting mending or something similar), but rather that you’ve tinkered together some sort of prototype item. For example, my tinker artificer might use a dragon-shaped sidearm to produce fire bolt, or use a modified gauntlet to deliver shocking grasp. The point is that these things are unstable prototypes that can’t be used by anyone else and that I have to constantly tinker with to maintain. So I have to possess my tinker’s tools; I have to have a tool in hand to produce the spell effect; but that “tool” can be a dragon-gun as opposed to a pair of pliers. Regardless of what it LOOKS like, bear in mind that it is inherently magical. I might cast cure wounds using a tiny metal spider I’ve tinkered. But while it may LOOK like a clockwork construct, it’s magic that allows it to move and think. Mundane engineering may be a part of a tinker’s creations, but magic is what makes them work.
Alchemist’s Supplies. Alchemy blends chemical reaction with magic. This is the underlying principle behind most potions; the challenge of creating a potions is to suspend the mystical reaction so it can be consumed at a later date. It’s much easier to trigger an instant effect, and that’s what you’re doing when you use alchemist’s supplies to cast your spells. Your firebolt could be a thrown flask or some sort of dragon-gun like the tinker; in your case, it’s activating and spitting your flaming concoction. Poison spray is easily justified as flinging foul substances. Cure wounds, false life, water breathing could all be potions you mix and serve on the spot: disguise self or alter self could be mystically charged cosmetics.
Calligrapher’s Supplies. Sigilry channels arcane power through symbols and sound, using special inks and techniques. As alchemy is to potions, sigilry is to scrolls; it’s much easier to produce an instant effect than to suspend and sustain it as a scroll. When you cast fire bolt, it could be that you use your quill to trace the name of fire in the air before you; or if could be that you have the sigil written down, and all you have to do is read it to produce the effect. Whether you draw sigils onto things or craft simple scrolls and read them, your pen is mightier than most swords.
Cartographer’s Supplies. This is a twist on the sigilist. On the one hand, you could just use your tools in the same way, drawing sigils. But if you want to be more exotic about it, you could specialize in calculating ley lines and the relationships between the planes. Essentially, the world is filled with mico-manifest zones waiting to be triggered; you’re using your tools to calculate the proper alignments to channel the energies you need.
Painter’s Supplies. If you want to be fanciful about it, you could paint what you need into reality. When you cure wounds, you’re literally painting over the injury; when you cast fire bolt, you paint the flame in the air and it flies towards your opponent. This is a variation of sigilry, but the same underlying principles apply. You might even create scrolls that are images rather than words!
Thieves’ Tools. All artificers are proficient with both thieves’ tools and tinker’s tools, and the point is that you largely use them in the same way. Thieves’ tools are picks and other fine manipulators. It’s not that you cast a fire bolt by pointing a lockpick at someone; it’s that you can use the lockpick to clear out that problematic valve on your dragon-pistol. Of course, if you WANT to come up with some lock-based form of artifice you can.
Woodcarver’s Tools. Wands, staffs, and rods are one of the most basic forms of arcane focus. As with tinker’s tools, if you perform magic with woodcarver’s tools, you aren’t actually blasting someone with a saw. Instead, you are using experimental, exotic, or otherwise temporary wands or rods. Again, the effect is that you have to have a tool in your hand and you have to possess woodcarver’s tools to perform your magic, but the exact nature of the tool in your hand is up to you. It could appear to be a traditional wand, or you could have come up with some new revolutionary form of wand/staff/rod.
Personally, I'm playing an artillerist as a Wandslinger, and so almost everything I do is coming from my wands.
Neat post. I can't quite tell if its saying "you need the tools on you but not actively carrying it" or if its just "fluffing having the tools in your hand" Because mechanically those are very different. Most of the post reads like you don't need the tool kit in hand, that it works more like a component pouch--that you're pulling out the thing you created when you prepped the spells and use it, then put it back--requiring no actions outside of taking the spell casting action. but then a line like " Again, the effect is that you have to have a tool in your hand and you have to possess woodcarver’s tools to perform your magic, " makes it seem like you do have to have the tool kit in hand-taking up your hand--and this is all just fluff (which I would be doing anyway). Plus line where he directly uses the word Flavor
If this really does imply that they're more like temporary items created from it, so you don't have to have the actual tool kit in your hands. (I.e. the tools are more like component pouches and the items are like the materials you pull out cast and put back) then that help a fair few issues that crop up with the Alchemist (that doesn't really do with Smith or Artficer).
It would've been nifty had it been more mechanically called out-assuming its more component pouchy like. Since its something i've seen around a fair bit. A lot lf alchemists not having a shield, or not being able to pull out an elixir or potion if they had a shield. Because they needed open hands for tools ~always~.
Where as battleSmiths just uses any infusion. Artilirist's Arcane Blaster(firearm) stacks with Enhanced Arcane Focus, so it serves fine use for having in your hand (say with a shield or something). While Alchemist's Tool kit specific means they can't use their Infusions, and if it takes up their hand that means they have trouble with things that are very alchemist like. Elixir,s healing potions, alch fire/acid vials, Healing Kits. This either means they can't use a shield--so they keep an extra hand open. Or they have to forgo using all of those in battle. Which kind of goes against the flavor and several in class abilities. (admitidly not often you'll use an elixir on someone in battle, but healing kits and healing potions can and do come up in games. and alch fire/acid vials are in character and also fairly useful in some situations).
Sooo.. Personally I really vote for the component pouch style for alchemist (and probably all artficiers in general). Because Item Juggling is not fun~
Let's look at (some of) the actual wording from the Magic of Artifice sidebar in the class. That's official material from Wizards themselves, and gives an idea of what the intent is.
To quote: "As an artificer, you use tools when you cast your spells. When describing your spellcasting, think about how you’re using a tool to perform the spell effect. If you cast cure wounds using alchemist’s supplies, you could be quickly producing a salve. If you cast it using tinker’s tools, you might have a miniature mechanical spider that binds wounds. When you cast poison spray, you could fling foul chemicals or use a wand that spits venom. The effect of the spell is the same as for a spellcaster of any other class, but your method of spellcasting is special."
The key bit, I think, is the 'miniature mechanical wound-binding spider'. On top of being either a really cool or really creepy visualization depending on your spider tolerance, it would be extremely difficult to argue that a Miniature Mechanical Spider is tinker's tools. Made with tinker's tools, certainly - but nobody tinkers with clockwork arachnids. Both of the other examples also state that you are not necessarily reaching for your base toolkits, but for items made with your base toolkits. A venom-spitting wand is not a tool for anything but maybe the Exterminator's Kit.
Now, RAW? Pull out that hammer, that Bunsen beaker, or those forceps, because "tool as focus" means you wave a wrench at the enemy and spells happen. RAW does not and never has cared about thematics. Looking at the rules for spellcasting foci:
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This would indicate that you need to grab the wrench and wave it, wand-style, using your item interaction for the turn and keeping your hand occupied with said wrench, as the wording says 'hold a spellcasting focus' as opposed to 'access material components'. This is consistent with most other spellcasting foci for other classes, which can only be used hands-free if the item specifically says it does.
Heh, of course, treating a wrench as a magic wand is enormously dumb and clearly goes against the spirit of the rules and their own 'Magic of Artifice' sidebar. I would posit that you have a very strong case for arguing for component pouch-style interactions - pull your spell gadget out of your bandolier and deploy it. Flavor it well and you'll be adding enough to the game that any sensible DM will let you have it. The exception, of course, is Adventurer's League. if you play AL, sadly you're going to have to fill your hand with that wrench (or Bunsen beaker, in this case) and wave it at the enemy, because AL doesn't give a single snot about sense, logic, thematics, flavor, or fun. RAW says wave the beaker, so AL DMs are forced to tell you to wave the beaker.
If Adventure League is STRICTLY RAW with no accounting for INTENT, then there's a whole lot more problems than flavoring Artificers. As Yurei said, "Flavoring the Artificer sidebar, and as Baker wrote in the blog, the intent is that your tools in essence act as a component pouch. You used your tools to create the components to cast your spells. You still have to have the tools on you to cast, but you're not waving a wrench to cast Grease, you're lobbing a flask prepared that morning.
Adventurer's League does not give a single stanky rat fart about INTENT. AL tells DMs that they are flat-out disallowed to DM their game - their job is to sit there and run the module, on rails, exactly the way the book/AL docket says they should do, and any deviation from RAW is to be disallowed and/or punished. You don't get to reflavor anything, you don't get to do anything that isn't explicitly written out in a book somewhere, and any rules ambiguity decision/verdict that CAN go against the player, DOES go against the player in order to ensure that players adhere as strictly to RAW as possible and never, ever accrue any sort of Unfair Advantage(C) over someone at another table playing the same game.
Personally, I consider artificers to be essentially nonfunctional in AL. The class requires creativity and outside-the-box thinking in order to accomplish anything worthwhile; Adventurer's League dispermits both of those things to the strongest possible extent it can and still pretend to be D&D on the surface. Just...just don't bother with your artificers in AL, guys. #NotWorth
I love the idea of treating it as a component pouch, and it solves a lot of weird corner cases. So I'll play it that way I think. And bring it up with GMs in future One-Shot or short-run games I participate in. It solves a ton of issues, and it allows for things like.. me carrying an elixir to save someone (instead of bonus word). Since post lv 9 if I can reach them, that HP boost+temp hp is sooo very tasty compared to healing word. (Sans difference in action economy). And in general just a lot of cool moments pulling out the right item etc to save it.
Also. I just wanna fluff my cantrips as my gauntlets (story wise-its what they made to interact with magic when younger and are always tinkering it) firing a laser blast that's fueld by reagents I add from my toolkit.
This is my entire problem with the Artificer. It’s all fluff and intent and “imagine it this way, but just use the same mechanic as everything else.” I knew it would lead to exactly this kind of confusion.
Level 4 artificer here, throwing in my 2cp as to how I use my tools to cast my spells. The Magic of Artifice sidebar implied that we have to have our tools in hand, but at the same time, we prepare spells in advance, a nice tradeoff for not having a "spells known" limit. So when I rest, I use the widgets and sprockets in my tinkerer's kit to prepare what I call my spell gauntlet. If I want to cast fire bolt, then I say that the mechanism releases the jet of flame. For cure wounds, two needles pop out and give a life saving injection. My favorite are detection spells and fairy fire, which I describe as a small orb that detaches, from the gauntlet, emits beams of light that appear to scan the area, and then returns when finished. If you're proficient in multiple types of tools, then it gets easier to describe how everything works. The key is to just have fun with it.
Artificer isn't AL legal. Period. I've had this discussion at least every other week since ERFTLW released. Even if it fits the PHB+1 rules you can't use artificer because it's not FR content. Even though the class specifically mentions there are artificers in FR. I've heard they're going to make a separate structured play league for Eberron sometime in 2020 but it will be completely separate from AL. It's a real shame.
But to the topic of the thread, component pouch style is the only one that makes sense.
Artificer isn't AL legal. Period. I've had this discussion at least every other week since ERFTLW released. Even if it fits the PHB+1 rules you can't use artificer because it's not FR content. Even though the class specifically mentions there are artificers in FR. I've heard they're going to make a separate structured play league for Eberron sometime in 2020 but it will be completely separate from AL. It's a real shame.
But to the topic of the thread, component pouch style is the only one that makes sense.
That’s not true. There’s an entire AL document about Eberron. RftLW is not one of the “+1” options for FR games, that’s true, but it IS the +1 for Eberron games. Eberron adventures for AL already exist.
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Heyo.
So this came up somewhere else so thought I'd ask here too for more i nput. Preface: I know you can use infusions for focus over tool kits. But. Alchemist cannot if they want INT to damage types.
So, I've been assuming to get the alchemist's lv 5 ability you had to hold the alchemist tool k it. I.e. it takes up a hand and you'd have to take a free action to draw it and or stow it (or an action if you already used item interaction that turn).
But someone else commented that due to the fluff wording on alchemist THE MAGIC OF ARTIFICE section which talks about pulling out gadgets or parts. They stated that the tool kit is more like a component pouch-where you pull out the tool or "constructed item" (fluff) use it and then it goes back. Kind of like non consumed components normally would.
Which prompted me to read up on focus and such. There are some focus like Divine Focus which just require it being shown (which is free on a shield/armour) or can be just briefly waved around when its on a necklace etc. But then we have Orbs and Wands, which seemingly are "held" items. THough I can't quite be sure on that--since most of the examples are held Wands and they would be holding the wand to use the spell anyway...
So... Artficier and in specific Alchemist. Do they have to hold their tool kit in hand-i.e. held item with the accompaning action economy? Or is it safe to assume you can have your tool kit on your belt, or bandolier, and its considered free usage like some focus are?
Thoughts or rules references I missed?
Honestly if its like a component pouch that would really be very helpful considering how awkward a lot of the alchemist set up can be.
otherwise you'll have to hope for Acquasitiosn Inc's Travel Alchemy Kit for free use (asa focus and as an alchemist/poison kit)
Keith Baker (the creator of Eberron) did a blog about this. Here is the relevant information:
http://keith-baker.com/tag/artificer/
The Tools of Magic
Most artisans’ tools aren’t a single object. You’re not proficient with “a hammer”; you’re proficient with smith’s tools. So when you use a tool to cast a spell, it’s not that you just have a single magic hammer that you wave. Which elements of your tool are you using? What are you producing that creates the effect? Consider a few ideas…
Personally, I'm playing an artillerist as a Wandslinger, and so almost everything I do is coming from my wands.
Neat post. I can't quite tell if its saying "you need the tools on you but not actively carrying it" or if its just "fluffing having the tools in your hand" Because mechanically those are very different. Most of the post reads like you don't need the tool kit in hand, that it works more like a component pouch--that you're pulling out the thing you created when you prepped the spells and use it, then put it back--requiring no actions outside of taking the spell casting action.
but then a line like " Again, the effect is that you have to have a tool in your hand and you have to possess woodcarver’s tools to perform your magic, " makes it seem like you do have to have the tool kit in hand-taking up your hand--and this is all just fluff (which I would be doing anyway). Plus line where he directly uses the word Flavor
If this really does imply that they're more like temporary items created from it, so you don't have to have the actual tool kit in your hands. (I.e. the tools are more like component pouches and the items are like the materials you pull out cast and put back) then that help a fair few issues that crop up with the Alchemist (that doesn't really do with Smith or Artficer).
It would've been nifty had it been more mechanically called out-assuming its more component pouchy like. Since its something i've seen around a fair bit. A lot lf alchemists not having a shield, or not being able to pull out an elixir or potion if they had a shield. Because they needed open hands for tools ~always~.
Where as battleSmiths just uses any infusion. Artilirist's Arcane Blaster(firearm) stacks with Enhanced Arcane Focus, so it serves fine use for having in your hand (say with a shield or something). While Alchemist's Tool kit specific means they can't use their Infusions, and if it takes up their hand that means they have trouble with things that are very alchemist like. Elixir,s healing potions, alch fire/acid vials, Healing Kits. This either means they can't use a shield--so they keep an extra hand open. Or they have to forgo using all of those in battle. Which kind of goes against the flavor and several in class abilities. (admitidly not often you'll use an elixir on someone in battle, but healing kits and healing potions can and do come up in games. and alch fire/acid vials are in character and also fairly useful in some situations).
Sooo.. Personally I really vote for the component pouch style for alchemist (and probably all artficiers in general). Because Item Juggling is not fun~
Let's look at (some of) the actual wording from the Magic of Artifice sidebar in the class. That's official material from Wizards themselves, and gives an idea of what the intent is.
To quote: "As an artificer, you use tools when you cast your spells. When describing your spellcasting, think about how you’re using a tool to perform the spell effect. If you cast cure wounds using alchemist’s supplies, you could be quickly producing a salve. If you cast it using tinker’s tools, you might have a miniature mechanical spider that binds wounds. When you cast poison spray, you could fling foul chemicals or use a wand that spits venom. The effect of the spell is the same as for a spellcaster of any other class, but your method of spellcasting is special."
The key bit, I think, is the 'miniature mechanical wound-binding spider'. On top of being either a really cool or really creepy visualization depending on your spider tolerance, it would be extremely difficult to argue that a Miniature Mechanical Spider is tinker's tools. Made with tinker's tools, certainly - but nobody tinkers with clockwork arachnids. Both of the other examples also state that you are not necessarily reaching for your base toolkits, but for items made with your base toolkits. A venom-spitting wand is not a tool for anything but maybe the Exterminator's Kit.
Now, RAW? Pull out that hammer, that Bunsen beaker, or those forceps, because "tool as focus" means you wave a wrench at the enemy and spells happen. RAW does not and never has cared about thematics. Looking at the rules for spellcasting foci:
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
This would indicate that you need to grab the wrench and wave it, wand-style, using your item interaction for the turn and keeping your hand occupied with said wrench, as the wording says 'hold a spellcasting focus' as opposed to 'access material components'. This is consistent with most other spellcasting foci for other classes, which can only be used hands-free if the item specifically says it does.
Heh, of course, treating a wrench as a magic wand is enormously dumb and clearly goes against the spirit of the rules and their own 'Magic of Artifice' sidebar. I would posit that you have a very strong case for arguing for component pouch-style interactions - pull your spell gadget out of your bandolier and deploy it. Flavor it well and you'll be adding enough to the game that any sensible DM will let you have it. The exception, of course, is Adventurer's League. if you play AL, sadly you're going to have to fill your hand with that wrench (or Bunsen beaker, in this case) and wave it at the enemy, because AL doesn't give a single snot about sense, logic, thematics, flavor, or fun. RAW says wave the beaker, so AL DMs are forced to tell you to wave the beaker.
Sorry, man.
Please do not contact or message me.
If Adventure League is STRICTLY RAW with no accounting for INTENT, then there's a whole lot more problems than flavoring Artificers. As Yurei said, "Flavoring the Artificer sidebar, and as Baker wrote in the blog, the intent is that your tools in essence act as a component pouch. You used your tools to create the components to cast your spells. You still have to have the tools on you to cast, but you're not waving a wrench to cast Grease, you're lobbing a flask prepared that morning.
Adventurer's League does not give a single stanky rat fart about INTENT. AL tells DMs that they are flat-out disallowed to DM their game - their job is to sit there and run the module, on rails, exactly the way the book/AL docket says they should do, and any deviation from RAW is to be disallowed and/or punished. You don't get to reflavor anything, you don't get to do anything that isn't explicitly written out in a book somewhere, and any rules ambiguity decision/verdict that CAN go against the player, DOES go against the player in order to ensure that players adhere as strictly to RAW as possible and never, ever accrue any sort of Unfair Advantage(C) over someone at another table playing the same game.
Personally, I consider artificers to be essentially nonfunctional in AL. The class requires creativity and outside-the-box thinking in order to accomplish anything worthwhile; Adventurer's League dispermits both of those things to the strongest possible extent it can and still pretend to be D&D on the surface. Just...just don't bother with your artificers in AL, guys. #NotWorth
Please do not contact or message me.
I love the idea of treating it as a component pouch, and it solves a lot of weird corner cases. So I'll play it that way I think. And bring it up with GMs in future One-Shot or short-run games I participate in. It solves a ton of issues, and it allows for things like.. me carrying an elixir to save someone (instead of bonus word). Since post lv 9 if I can reach them, that HP boost+temp hp is sooo very tasty compared to healing word. (Sans difference in action economy).
And in general just a lot of cool moments pulling out the right item etc to save it.
Also. I just wanna fluff my cantrips as my gauntlets (story wise-its what they made to interact with magic when younger and are always tinkering it) firing a laser blast that's fueld by reagents I add from my toolkit.
This is my entire problem with the Artificer. It’s all fluff and intent and “imagine it this way, but just use the same mechanic as everything else.” I knew it would lead to exactly this kind of confusion.
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That's why I'm keeping it simple. I'm going full Harry Potter in this *****. Dual wand wielding artillerist blowing things up for the greater good.
Level 4 artificer here, throwing in my 2cp as to how I use my tools to cast my spells. The Magic of Artifice sidebar implied that we have to have our tools in hand, but at the same time, we prepare spells in advance, a nice tradeoff for not having a "spells known" limit. So when I rest, I use the widgets and sprockets in my tinkerer's kit to prepare what I call my spell gauntlet. If I want to cast fire bolt, then I say that the mechanism releases the jet of flame. For cure wounds, two needles pop out and give a life saving injection. My favorite are detection spells and fairy fire, which I describe as a small orb that detaches, from the gauntlet, emits beams of light that appear to scan the area, and then returns when finished. If you're proficient in multiple types of tools, then it gets easier to describe how everything works. The key is to just have fun with it.
Artificer isn't AL legal. Period. I've had this discussion at least every other week since ERFTLW released. Even if it fits the PHB+1 rules you can't use artificer because it's not FR content. Even though the class specifically mentions there are artificers in FR. I've heard they're going to make a separate structured play league for Eberron sometime in 2020 but it will be completely separate from AL. It's a real shame.
But to the topic of the thread, component pouch style is the only one that makes sense.
The obvious use of stapler and/or hot glue gun when casting cure spells.
That’s not true. There’s an entire AL document about Eberron. RftLW is not one of the “+1” options for FR games, that’s true, but it IS the +1 for Eberron games. Eberron adventures for AL already exist.