You're a DM (presumably). Rules lawyering can suck a lemon. Nevertheless:
"The cannon is a magical object. Regardless of size, the cannon has an AC of 18 and a number of hit points equal to five times your artificer level. It is immune to poison damage, psychic damage, and all conditions. If it is forced to make an ability check or a saving throw, treat all its ability scores as 10 (+0). If the mending spell is cast on it, it regains 2d6 hit points. It disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points or after 1 hour. You can dismiss it early as an action."
No. The release Alchemist in Eberron Rising is absolutely godawful. It is a strict and severe downgrade to the 2019 UA, and anyone who honestly believes that sinking every spell slot they have into minor buffs uncompetitive with most typical first-level spells they're replacing in return for the ability to do ****-all anywhere or anywhen else is either playing a very weird game of D&D or just doesn't care about being useful more'n once or twice a day.
As someone who really enjoyed the 2019 UA Alchemist, the Rising "update" destroyed that character. Had to switch the wreckage to Battlesmith and do a month and a have of reconstructive surgery to get her remotely ready to continue her games, and even then she lost too much in the switchover. It was awful and completely unnecessary, and the awful part is that DDB has forbidden anyone to fix it. You can't homebrew the old 2019 UA anymore, or even just try and patch up the existing Rising Suckhemist, or they take down your efforts and inform you it's against ToS to 'plagiarize' official Wizards content that way.
God, it's just absolutely miserable. I really miss the right and proper version of Ana...
the only changes made to the alchemist were:
-they annoyingly moved the halved cost of crafting potions and quater time of crafting potions, instead you get something similar to it at 10th level but to all common and uncommon magic items, the only change i dont like but hey.
-replaced the humonculus with experimental elixir, yeah it was fun to have a little buddy and thematic as heck but it would not really fit all alchemist characters people might want to make
-moved 6th level feature to 5th and made it apply to more damage types, overall an improvement but they did move the free lesser restoration to 9th level
-a 9th level feature was added, free lesser restoration was moved to this spot
-14th level was moved to 15th, and it is exactly the same as before but you get to also cast heal
these are not bad changes, overall i would consider them improvements (it was nice to have faster crafting at 3rd level and to have it apply to only one kind of object, but i get why they changed that minor aspect)
the elixirs are all just as strong as 1st level spells, with the transformation potion letting you replicate an 2nd level spell in a limited manner and flight well doing something you will not be able to do until 5th level and will probably come up as soon as you have an mountain or an pit to wide to jump or a river or any obstacle, the only potion that i consider to beeven remotely bad is boldness becuase it is single person bless but hey even it got its uses, most of these dont need concentration and best of all, you can make them as an action out of combat, give them to a friend and more or less grant them the abillity to cast a spell on your behalf. Experimental elixir is cool and useful and while i would have been cool to have a feature that lets me make elixirs of any artificer or alchemist spell with an casting time of 1 action that targets only one target, this is an good feature, it is a lot of bang for your buck especially once they start to give away temp hp for free, you get all the utillity and supportive abillties you could ever want as an alchemist, the abillity to heal good, buff good, debuff enemies, and commit war crimes against your enemies with fire and acid
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
How long does each elixir last? -- Much longer than a single battle for most of them. The instantaneous one is healing and done after the battle unless it's an emergency.
And how many actions/people do they take to use? -- Those elixirs are usually used before encounters in preparation for said encounter. The number of actions outside of combat is meaningless.
3 of the 6 elixirs are almost exclusively useful within combat though. So the number of actions within combat do matter. If you have the luxury to prepare for an ambush, fantastic the action cost of elixirs within combat is 0. If you're saddled with an unexpected encounter hopefully the fighter already has the boldness elixir ready to use otherwise somebody is going to need to use their movement to hand it off to them so they can spend an action not attacking to drink it. If you're completely unprepared then any use will take two actions, yours and another party member's. It means the Alchemist everyday has to choose between pre-casting spell slots and distributing elixirs to the right people vs holding onto spell slots to use for unexpected situations via spells. That's not necessarily a problem. But it is a complication and a potential consistent source of frustration. It's the kind of thing that makes me worry about making the wrong decision especially considering my inexperience with D&D in general.
The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place! -- It's free. It does not matter which random elixir is generated either because they are all useful most of the time.
The fact that the random elixir is free and all of the uses are beneficial doesn't really excuse the randomness. The Artillerist's first cannon is also free but not random, despite the fact that all three of the different cannons are useful. The first creation of a Steel Defender is free and a Battle Smith can recreate it for free at the end of long rest if necessary yet the Battles Smith is perfectly capable of commanding the Steel Defender at any point none of it's actions are taken at random.
The only reason Experimental Elixir is random is in it's name "Experimental Elixir" and it's not a good representation of experimentation. Any scientist worth their salt will keep notes on their experiments and should be able to reproduce their results for the same or similar expense as the first time they attempted things. If some random discovery of something useful occurred it shouldn't suddenly be more expensive to reproduce it the next time.
Having the Experimental Elixir be random, every day, unless using spell slots makes the Alchemist seem like drunk crack pot only vaguely aware of what they're doing. And if that's the character you want to play then have at it. Personally I'm really not fond of that aspect of experimental elixir.
If Experimental Elixir were instead a list of potions/elixirs that you learned to make over time with each time you learn a new elixir being selected by the roll of a die then the randomness would make more sense. It would actually feel like learning through experimentation or that your experimentation had some kind of purpose.
But officially it's six elixirs you ostensibly already know how to make at level 3 but only when you're trying really hard. Otherwise you end up making some other one by accident, but that's okay all the accidents are somehow, conveniently, helpful so hooray randomness, right? I mean it's not like careless combinations of chemicals are dangerous or anything.
But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp? -- How many characters are using speeds other than walking speeds most of the time, lol? The elixir doesn't need the overnight rest and preparation the spell does. The alchemist would never need to prepare Longstrider while an artillerist or battle smith would for similar benefit. That actually opens up a larger list of 1st level spells available to the alchemist if we're making that comparison.
How often do Artillerists or Battle Smiths even prepare longstrider? For that matter, how often does anyone prepare longstrider? My point about the swiftness potion is that unlike some of the other elixirs: Flight a weaker version of a good level 3 concentration spell (10 ft speed instead of 60), Transformation a weaker version of a good level 2 concentration spell (duration reduced), Boldness a weaker version of a great level 1 concentration spell (1 target instead of 3), and Resilience a weaker version of a good level 1 concentration spell (+1 AC instead of +2). Swiftness is a weaker version of a level 1 spell that (to my understanding) most casters already skip.
Compare that to how many times can the Artillerist can summon their cannon? How long does it last each time? How many actions does it take to use in combat? -- Yes, the cannon is useful in combat. It's not exactly helpful outside of combat like the elixirs are. It's not like the cannon let's the artillerist fly or breathe underwater. The elixirs are also useful in combat with the specific advantage of stacking a buff that does not need concentration.
The averaging out durations is a GIGO metric. Who are you trying to kid there, lol? The alchemist went more variety and it did cost them in some respects. A cannon clearly lasts longer (unless it dies, of course) and is useful in combat but not really anything else.
Alchemists play better than they look. The alchemist does not have the bonus action tied up in the subclass features so can be built to use that bonus action for an obvious advantage. As mentioned, the elixirs do not require concentration so the alchemist can provide simultaneous effects like faerie fire and boldness. Costly to do it a lot but that's a trade off for being able to do it in the first place. Boldness stacks with bless. A party that coordinates the two have an average of +5 to hit and to save for an important encounter, which is some huge synergy. A person needs to remember that boldness is good for offsetting GWM and SS attack penalties, or disadvantage, even without bless.
I mean yeah. My main point in that post was to point out people's dislike of the Alchemist or considering it underpowered wasn't about the randomness involved alone (though seriously it really doesn't help). An Artillerist can extend the use of one cannon out to potentially another combat encounter. An alchemist can probably only extend swiftness that far. Since it seems rather rare to me that multiple combats be less than 10 minutes apart, I could be very wrong about that. I'm well aware that boldness stacks with bless which is very good cause it would suck if one of the few things the Alchemist could uniquely do were to be made completely irrelevant by another class.
I do appreciate your assertion that Alchemists play better than they look because I haven't had the chance to play it yet. I still love the dang subclass, despite the things that are annoying about it. It remains my favorite of the 3 official subclasses (still really hoping we see Archivist released someday). But loving something doesn't mean I don't find the things annoying about it annoying as hell.
You missed the boat on this discussion the first time, ArtificeMeal. When Rising first dropped, a goodly chunk of folks in the UA forum were discussing the Experimental Elixir feature, and the strong consensus was that it was/is one of the weakest features available to any class, not just the artificer.
The lack of scaling with spell slots is awful: why can't you make two elixirs with a second-level slot, or three with a third? Instead, if you need to burn a high-level slot on one of these things you just waste one of your rare and precious advanced slots.
The randomization on your 'freebies' which is there solely and specifically because people can't let go of a bad shitty character trope (the Mad Doctor frizzy-haired idiot mixing whatever smells best around until either it explodes or he passes out from the fumes).
The loss of the exceptionally interesting and useful Alchemical Homunculus, only for it to be "given back" in drastically weakened form as a generic infusion because people don't like 'Pet Builds'.
It all adds up to a weak, undertuned, and trap-y feature that seems great until you break down what it actually does and figure out how much more bang for your buck you could get with pretty much any other class feature in the game.
How long does each elixir last? -- Much longer than a single battle for most of them. The instantaneous one is healing and done after the battle unless it's an emergency.
And how many actions/people do they take to use? -- Those elixirs are usually used before encounters in preparation for said encounter. The number of actions outside of combat is meaningless.
3 of the 6 elixirs are almost exclusively useful within combat though. So the number of actions within combat do matter. If you have the luxury to prepare for an ambush, fantastic the action cost of elixirs within combat is 0. If you're saddled with an unexpected encounter hopefully the fighter already has the boldness elixir ready to use otherwise somebody is going to need to use their movement to hand it off to them so they can spend an action not attacking to drink it. If you're completely unprepared then any use will take two actions, yours and another party member's. It means the Alchemist everyday has to choose between pre-casting spell slots and distributing elixirs to the right people vs holding onto spell slots to use for unexpected situations via spells. That's not necessarily a problem. But it is a complication and a potential consistent source of frustration. It's the kind of thing that makes me worry about making the wrong decision especially considering my inexperience with D&D in general.
The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place! -- It's free. It does not matter which random elixir is generated either because they are all useful most of the time.
The fact that the random elixir is free and all of the uses are beneficial doesn't really excuse the randomness. The Artillerist's first cannon is also free but not random, despite the fact that all three of the different cannons are useful. The first creation of a Steel Defender is free and a Battle Smith can recreate it for free at the end of long rest if necessary yet the Battles Smith is perfectly capable of commanding the Steel Defender at any point none of it's actions are taken at random.
The only reason Experimental Elixir is random is in it's name "Experimental Elixir" and it's not a good representation of experimentation. Any scientist worth their salt will keep notes on their experiments and should be able to reproduce their results for the same or similar expense as the first time they attempted things. If some random discovery of something useful occurred it shouldn't suddenly be more expensive to reproduce it the next time.
Having the Experimental Elixir be random, every day, unless using spell slots makes the Alchemist seem like drunk crack pot only vaguely aware of what they're doing. And if that's the character you want to play then have at it. Personally I'm really not fond of that aspect of experimental elixir.
If Experimental Elixir were instead a list of potions/elixirs that you learned to make over time with each time you learn a new elixir being selected by the roll of a die then the randomness would make more sense. It would actually feel like learning through experimentation or that your experimentation had some kind of purpose.
But officially it's six elixirs you ostensibly already know how to make at level 3 but only when you're trying really hard. Otherwise you end up making some other one by accident, but that's okay all the accidents are somehow, conveniently, helpful so hooray randomness, right? I mean it's not like careless combinations of chemicals are dangerous or anything.
But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp? -- How many characters are using speeds other than walking speeds most of the time, lol? The elixir doesn't need the overnight rest and preparation the spell does. The alchemist would never need to prepare Longstrider while an artillerist or battle smith would for similar benefit. That actually opens up a larger list of 1st level spells available to the alchemist if we're making that comparison.
How often do Artillerists or Battle Smiths even prepare longstrider? For that matter, how often does anyone prepare longstrider? My point about the swiftness potion is that unlike some of the other elixirs: Flight a weaker version of a good level 3 concentration spell (10 ft speed instead of 60), Transformation a weaker version of a good level 2 concentration spell (duration reduced), Boldness a weaker version of a great level 1 concentration spell (1 target instead of 3), and Resilience a weaker version of a good level 1 concentration spell (+1 AC instead of +2). Swiftness is a weaker version of a level 1 spell that (to my understanding) most casters already skip.
Compare that to how many times can the Artillerist can summon their cannon? How long does it last each time? How many actions does it take to use in combat? -- Yes, the cannon is useful in combat. It's not exactly helpful outside of combat like the elixirs are. It's not like the cannon let's the artillerist fly or breathe underwater. The elixirs are also useful in combat with the specific advantage of stacking a buff that does not need concentration.
The averaging out durations is a GIGO metric. Who are you trying to kid there, lol? The alchemist went more variety and it did cost them in some respects. A cannon clearly lasts longer (unless it dies, of course) and is useful in combat but not really anything else.
Alchemists play better than they look. The alchemist does not have the bonus action tied up in the subclass features so can be built to use that bonus action for an obvious advantage. As mentioned, the elixirs do not require concentration so the alchemist can provide simultaneous effects like faerie fire and boldness. Costly to do it a lot but that's a trade off for being able to do it in the first place. Boldness stacks with bless. A party that coordinates the two have an average of +5 to hit and to save for an important encounter, which is some huge synergy. A person needs to remember that boldness is good for offsetting GWM and SS attack penalties, or disadvantage, even without bless.
I mean yeah. My main point in that post was to point out people's dislike of the Alchemist or considering it underpowered wasn't about the randomness involved alone (though seriously it really doesn't help). An Artillerist can extend the use of one cannon out to potentially another combat encounter. An alchemist can probably only extend swiftness that far. Since it seems rather rare to me that multiple combats be less than 10 minutes apart, I could be very wrong about that. I'm well aware that boldness stacks with bless which is very good cause it would suck if one of the few things the Alchemist could uniquely do were to be made completely irrelevant by another class.
I do appreciate your assertion that Alchemists play better than they look because I haven't had the chance to play it yet. I still love the dang subclass, despite the things that are annoying about it. It remains my favorite of the 3 official subclasses (still really hoping we see Archivist released someday). But loving something doesn't mean I don't find the things annoying about it annoying as hell.
The elixirs primarily used for combat are boldness and resilience. Both last longer than a combat. The others may have combat uses but they also last longer than combat. The only time the action economy for using them comes into play is if the alchemist did not have the opportunity to get ready for the combat. That tends to be true of any spell caster using buffs too. In this case it's not necessarily the action of the alchemist performing the action.
Resilience is a bit of a toss up because it's 1 AC for the entire combat vs the better bonus from shield for a shorter duration using the same slot. I prefer shield but a person can get multiple encounters out of resilience and boldness is likely the best elixir on that list. A non-concentration buff in a system where concentration limits stacking spells is good.
The alchemist does not really need to choose between pre-casting that much. Fight and altering self are situational use abilities as they come up. A person knows if he or she wants a bonus to movement or needs healing. The other two are generally a case of doing one's homework before entering a room, just like other spells. Either there's a chance to buff before hand or there's a choice needed to be made.
The randomness comment is fluff perception. Mechanically it's okay because it's not common to get something that won't get used. It's just a bit pointless over just allowing a choice because all the options are still there if they are needed. The limited number of slots tends to leave alchemists and artillerists both spamming cantrips or weapon attacks.
I wasn't the person who brought up longstrider if you recall. ;-) Not taking longstrider just means a faster movement if the random elixir occurs. I would point out that swiftness and longstrider also stack. Not exactly a common tactic but if someone wants to play around with speed it's a decent increase for the duration without using up the bonus action or concentration as an alternative to multiple castings of expeditious retreat over the same amount of time. Kiters tactics.
All those other spells you mentioned you also included the advantage the elixirs have -- they don't use concentration. An artificer needs to wait until 5th level to prep alter self when he or she can already use the elixir at 3rd level and at 5th level that would also tie up concentration plus use up a higher level slot that could be used on something else. The only time the alter self spell is better is if the caster needs the longer duration. Fly is a similar example. An artificer can cast it at 9th level while an alchemist can use the elixir at 3rd level. The fly spell also requires concentration and uses up a higher level slot that could be used on something else. Fly at least has better speed but it's not better unless the speed matters (such as covering distance). What you seem to forget is the level delays in gaining those options and that concentration has competition.
The cannon duration can easily last multiple encounters assuming it doesn't get destroyed. It's easy to top up with mending between battles too. The longer duration does not change what the cannon is actually doing. It's providing a 2d8 bonus action attack or a 1d8+INTmod renewable temp hp bonus. IME it's usually the temp hp. At 3rd level that is a nicer unless the alchemist is working on some kind of multi-class PAM variant human or CE build. The delay for flaming sphere is less of a delay than an artillerist would wait for fly and the same as the artillerist waits for alter self. That's where one of the better options for a close enough bonus action comes from although healing word helps in the meantime while an artillerist might be losing the regular action to cure wounds. The approach is different to the similar result. Having said that, cannons cost less and last longer but alchemists still have that extra versatility at earlier levels.
To be honest, I think people wouldn't mind the Alchemist so much if the potions had something else to offset the randomness. I mean sure, it gets better when you get two potions or three potions at level 6 and 15, respectively - but there are a lot of other ways they could have done the potion to make it more interesting. For example:
A) remove the randomness at higher levels - It's just silly to have randomness at higher levels, especially when you've made the potions for the past 10 levels or so. Are they still experimental even when you've spent the whole campaign making it?
B) buffing the effects to offset the randomness nature - If the potions were a bit stronger then it wouldn't be so bad if it were still random, such as making the +1AC last an hour instead of ten minutes. Ten minutes means that you have to be really sure the fight will happen soon. An hour will at least help with a good portion of a dungeon till you need to short rest or something, and its only just 1AC anyways. Hardly gamebreaking.
C) scaling the potions with spell slot level - e.g. Flight speed increasing by 5 or 10 per spell level. I mean come on, you're a half caster, you really aren't likely to be using your 4-5th level spells for a potion to make a weaker effect than what a wizard/sorcerer can do.
D) More potion types at higher levels - Why do we only experiment with 6? Can't we experiment with other things like throwable potions that burst on impact, or potions that give spider climb?
Basically they could have made the potions more appealing, instead you're stuck with 6 types of potions that change every day, and you have to spend slots to get anything you want specifically. Yes it is great that they can be given out and don't require concentration, but they're so limited and lose impact at higher levels. That said, I am currently playing an alchemist and I am enjoying it. It's just hard finding good times to pre-emptively use potions, especially when the effects are so ehhh, outside of healing and flight potions.
You missed the boat on this discussion the first time, ArtificeMeal. When Rising first dropped, a goodly chunk of folks in the UA forum were discussing the Experimental Elixir feature, and the strong consensus was that it was/is one of the weakest features available to any class, not just the artificer.
The lack of scaling with spell slots is awful: why can't you make two elixirs with a second-level slot, or three with a third? Instead, if you need to burn a high-level slot on one of these things you just waste one of your rare and precious advanced slots.
The randomization on your 'freebies' which is there solely and specifically because people can't let go of a bad shitty character trope (the Mad Doctor frizzy-haired idiot mixing whatever smells best around until either it explodes or he passes out from the fumes).
The loss of the exceptionally interesting and useful Alchemical Homunculus, only for it to be "given back" in drastically weakened form as a generic infusion because people don't like 'Pet Builds'....
Just...ugh.
That’s why I houseruled in the campaign I DM that if an Alchemist takes the Homunculus then they get the old one. That and they can make a number of free, random elixirs or alternatively they could maintain elixers they already made but haven’t used, a number per Long Rest = to the number of Infusions they can make. I also basically gave them a stripped-down version of the satchel back.
i dont think the alchemist needs an buff, but if we are gonna do it here is who i would do it:'
1 all alchemist tools only features work with brewers supplies, cooks utensils and any food related artisans tools, make it a little more versatile, make me a master chef like everyone wants
2 brewing potions should be an all-new way to cast spells like metamagic and ritual casting, any spell with an cast time of 1 action or 1 bonus action that affects only one creature on the artificer list is allowed to be turned into an elixir, when you do so you expend the appropriate spell slot to create an potion of the chosen spell, that an person can drink as an action to gain the effects, using your spellcasting abillity, without concentration and an maximum duration of 10 minutes is enforced, so an potion of invisibillity would only last for 10 minutes. This way we get an feature for alchemist that further makes them more versatile
3 having multiple experimental elixirs crafted with an higher level spell slots is a really cool idea, but like it might be a little strong, especially if we keep the temp hp thing at 9th level, you just straight up have effects better than 1st level spell slots and the way potions work means they would be really versatile, i dont know maybe it is fine, there are stonger class abuillities out there so if the totem barbarian gets resisttance to everything at 3rd level maybe i should not worry too much
4 just for fun, lets have a few choices at 15th level. Maybe you choose between three or four diffrent 6th level spells at 15th level, heal, create humonculus, heroes feast and harm for the spells you can cast with this feature, you choose one of them sort of like mystic arcanum and you cannot change it later
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Ashrym, you don't need to keep repeating that things stack and the elixirs are concentration free. Those are aspects that I very much like about the Experimental Elixir. I'm aware these are things you can do with Experimental Elixir. Repeating the same aspects of this feature over and over again when I'm already aware of them doesn't really convince me of anything. It just takes up space.
Flight and Transformation are my favorite of the two elixirs precisely because they have useful and most importantly interesting applications both inside and outside of combat. I honestly wish we had more interesting elixirs like these.
Swiftness has little use outside of combat. It has use escaping from combat. And maybe extending the range one could get with out of a Jump spell (since you're so fond of mentioning things that stack). Having that 10 foot boost apply to speeds other than walking would make it seem like less of a disappointment when for some reason my tired drunk Alchemist brain decides to make that elixir instead of something better. It'd be more broadly useful and then actually equivalent to the first level spell Longstrider which is convenient since it already costs a 1st level spell slot when making it on purpose. That was my point. The other elixirs are at least equal to a 1st level spell (some of them stronger). Swiftness is not.
Heck I'd even be okay with Swiftness lasting only 10 minutes if that 10 foot boost applied more broadly. It'd still be less powerful than a 1st level spell but it'd at least provide better use (including stacking since THEN it'd stack with the Flight elixir.)
The randomness comment is fluff perception. Mechanically it's okay because it's not common to get something that won't get used. It's just a bit pointless over just allowing a choice because all the options are still there if they are needed. The limited number of slots tends to leave alchemists and artillerists both spamming cantrips or weapon attacks.
If it's pointless (to which I agree) why even have it? This is part of why I'm saying it shouldn't be a thing. I mean I could look at it only positively and say "Oh hey! Here's a free gift every day!" Except that ostensibly it's something the Alchemist makes themself. If it were instead described as some sort of magical care package from some sort of cosmic benefactor, "free gift every day" makes sense. But that doesn't really fit with the more generic alchemist theme.
Instead the most charitable description I can think to give it right now is that the Alchemist somehow makes potions in their sleep. They wake up every morning with a new elixir in hand that they can identify how it works but can't explain where it came from.
It might be mechanically okay, but it could be mechanically and thematically coherent. Why bake cognitive dissonance into a subclass feature?
What if instead of just rolling a d6 for the result, you rolled a d6 and added 1/2 your Artificer level (rounded down) and then chose a result equal to or less than the die roll?
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What if instead of just rolling a d6 for the result, you rolled a d6 and added 1/2 your Artificer level (rounded down) and then chose a result equal to or less than the die roll?
I mean, that's less random certainly. I guess the idea is that as you progress in skill you get better at making the elixirs? It still seems weird that spending a spell slot lets you automatically get to pick what you want though when not spending one doesn't. Though I suppose I can see that thematically as running through fewer ingredients. It also imposes a hierarchy of difficulty within the elixirs, not necessarily an issue and I think they'd be in the right order in that case. It's not a bad house rule.
Battle smith is way stronger than Alchemist and a bit better than artilerist.
Alchemists power do not stack with each other. Can cast spells a bit better but has to use those slots for potion crafting.
Alchemist is the closest theme to full caster. No experimental is necessary. No need for poison immunity or any extra spell like ability also. 3rd level: you can craft spell infused items of all the spells you know by using spell slots of this class. Anyone can use them.
5th: chose a spell school. All spell slots will be counted as 1 spell level higher slots. You may chose from any full caster class spell list as long as it is from the school you have choosen. (Prepare 3rd level spells of one school) 9th: chose one(Can not be changed later);
- chose 2 extra schools for the 5th level ability
- For the class you have chosen on 5th level all spells slots used will be counted as +2 Spell slot. (Prepare 5th level spells of that school)
15th: The same as 9th level ability. (Prepare 8th level spells of that school)
Alchemist will be crafting temp spell stored items up to 8th level of 1school or chose other options. 2/3 spell caster.
I also think that Battle smith does not reflect its purpose. Why do they have to have a companion? Instead they should gain heavy armor and build an armor enabling their Int. for hit and damage. Also a sentient like weapon that they can command by bonus action which acts like a steel defender but worse.
New unearthed Arcana sub. Armor Smith is not necessary with that battle smith. So the unearthed arcana could released the construct master or effigy master style which would have answered the dreams of other artificer lowers. Might have a progression like, the size of the construct 3rd: 1 tiny + 1 medium (like steel defender) 5th: 2 Medium, 9th: 1 large +1 small or 2 Medium+1 tiny plus a group tactic ability 15th: An increase to the constructs capability. Every size increase would mean more options for the construct.
And the next UA could become a bio tech type with ooze armor acting like Venom of Marvel comics.
I think Battlesmith and Artillerist are pretty evenly matched as damage dealers overall, just in different ways.
I find it hard to judge if they're "better" than an Alchemist; I understand why people don't like the Alchemist, but I also don't think it's actually bad in terms of strength. The main issue with it IMO is that Wizards of the Coast took the UA version which was flexible and easy to adapt to a bunch of different themes, and rendered it down into almost being pure support.
With that in mind Alchemists actually have a good spell list; Ray of Sickness and Blight are both good damage spells, meanwhile Healing Word is IMO the best healing spell in the game, as healing is often more about getting players back up than the amount healed, so being able to do that as a bonus action at range is huge. The Intelligence bonus to acid etc. damage they get later on is okay, but it makes the most difference for spells with lower impact normally (so Healing Word again, plus the cantrips you'll be using to conserve spell slots).
Experimental Elixirs I'm so-so about; I don't like them mechanically because there are no new effects to unlock, and you have the ability to make the one you want right from the start (at the cost of a spell slot), so other than number you can make for free there's no progression and it's just a bit weird mechanically. It never feels like you're experimenting with elixirs, it feels like you're bad at making them unless you use magic.
The basic elixirs themselves are fine, and even when randomised I'd say the most situational one is Flight (great when you can find a way to take advantage of it, but otherwise it's meh) and some of them are really good. It sucks to burn limited spell slots early to get the one(s) you really want, but having several non-concentration Bless potions (Boldness) in your pocket isn't a bad thing for when you're expecting things to kick off, and depending upon your party you should always have someone who can benefit from one of the others.
I think the alchemist actually stacks up fine in terms of strength as a measure of benefit to the party as a whole; it can do damage with spells but it's not really as much of a damage dealer as the other sub-classes, it's more support. If your character idea fits the very particular Alchemist play-style then it'll be great and play well, but if it doesn't, then you may be better off taking another sub-class (or class) and just adding alchemist's supplies proficiency through a background so you can do some potion brewing on the side.
For those who want a more combat oriented Alchemist that can hold their own more easily then Yurei1453 has previewed their Toxicologist alternative sub-class which should be a lot of fun to play (not sure on an ETA for a homebrew release?).
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The real drawback is elixirs add versatility while lacking the efficiency of other options like cannons. Using the extra options elixirs give can burn through slots faster than using a cannon. Stella defender isn't exactly slot cost intensive. ;-)
Yes as someone who's played a battle smith and an alchemist, the alchemist is 100% terrible (slight hyperbolie). The elixirs dont scale at all, plus their spell level is still half progrssion so their spell damage is 1/2 a wizards or clerics. They get no defensive advantages like the Armourer and most importantly... you make ONE elixer IRESPECTIVE of the spell slot level used... so hands up who thinks at L18 you'll want to use your only L5 spell slot to make a single 2D4+int healing potion? The same effect could be done with Healing word and a L1 spell slot.
It ends up making a handful of infusions that usually get dished out to the party (and an armourer would have more of them and do this better), picking up a shield and spamming Acid splash once, every turn. Thats it. Almost aything you can do, the Armourer, Artilleriest, and Battlesmith can do too, and usually with far more flare. Except for the whole "Flying potion at L3", not that I'd be bragging about my 10' flight speeds...
The Artillerist is far better at both damaging and to a lesser extent healing at range with their Protector healing turret options and wands,
The Armourer is better at damage than the alchemist with its gauntlets and or lightning launcher, has built in defensive options depending on model, and is better with infusion distribution with extra bonus infusion, and does not need to invest in Strength to use these attacks or wear its heavy armour without penalty giving them better attribute allocation.
The Battlesmith is better with damage and defense due to the options provided by the steel defender, plus its bonus proficinecy in martial weaponry. It also like the armorer can bypass strength requirement entirely as all its infused weapons can use int for attack and damage. Technicly this means they can also to some extent ignore dex too, given repeating or returning weapon infusions.
Nothing alchemists do can't be done better by any divine caster, or almost equally as well as the other 3 artificer types.
Its a RP flavour class. Underpowered like the old beast master rangers. You take it for style, just be prepared to be squishier, lower damage, and less effective than the party cleric.
PS nothing stopping you picking Alchemist supplies as your starting artisan tools with any of the other class/artifcer sub classes/races and doing everything they do as that. It just costs you gold per use instead of all your spell slots.
i feel all of the subclasses are really potent, especially the alchemist, you mean to tell me i can, with an 1st level spell slot, cast alter self, and have it affect somebody else?
Why, for the 10 minute swim speed or the 1d6+str damage? Both are super situational.
and i get to stack swiftness with longstrider?
And what corner case is this useful for.
and i also get to achive flight with an first level spell slot?
They can float for 10 minutes at 10'. At best this allows 1 character to overcome an obstacle, or assist the party. in combat you may luck out and float above it, but outside of tier 1 how many encounters don't have ranged attackers taking into account dungeon crawls where the ceilings would prevent it.
and none of these fantastic elixirs require concentration? you also mean to tell me i can heal 1d8 plus twice my int unlike the plebian that is the cleric, and add int to my fire damage, and poison damage, and acid damage, and necrotic damage? aso wands give their bonus to attack rolls regardles of if you use them as your focus or not, so one can still use alchemical savant with an enhanced arcane focus
They don't require concentration, but they do cost you an action to create, and the other character an action to use. (also 2d4+int not 1d8+int). And all those alchemist spells that deal fire or poison (The most commonly resisted or just immune damage types). Acid and necrotic are better damage options, but what 3 acid spells and 1 necrotic.
And no you must use the wand as the spell focus in order to receive the bonus. [That statement doesn't even begin to make sense. It would be like attuning to two magic swords, only using one and then declaring because you've go the other one you get both bonuses.]
and also, i get to give a bunch of temp hp to everyone who drinks my fantastic little potions?
Why? This is almost as much of an insult as the whole random elixir. They apparently don't want to actually allow players to have a useful elixir, so give out temp HP? How does this fit into any alchemist theme? Also almost every other class has the ability to give out temp HP to multiple creatures, so spending a spell slot for a handful for one character is not efficient. If you're claiming that the temp HP are worth it then you're admitting the base effect isn't worth it.
hell yeah! and with the 15th level feature, i, an mere half caster in world full of full casters, can cast an mighty 6th level spell, an feat no other half caster can even hope to achive without multiclassing, that is something indeed special, perhaps not with other casters in the party but it is indeed incredeble, and at 15th level you should normally not even have 5th level spells, and yet you can cast greater restoration, and you can do all of that without the super expensive components normally associated with greater restoration or even having it prepared, and you get all of that plus two resistances and an condition immunity.
So far everything you mentioned can be done better by multiple other classes, bard, cleric, druid all come to mind and those other classes get to do additional things. The alchemist subclass is just disappointing. Their support capabilities are less then the other sub-classes, their damage is less then the other subclasses. The only thing they could come up with was another bad (and completely unnecessary) healing subclass that honestly doesn't do it that great either?
Yes greater restoration and heal are nice, but that just reinforces what I've been saying. They're locked into a very limited support only role. And remember every elixir an alchemist makes outside of the random takes a spell slot. Even at higher levels, using that 3rd level spell slot creates one elixir with no adjustment for up-casting.
i dont think the alchemist needs an buff, but if we are gonna do it here is who i would do it:'
1 all alchemist tools only features work with brewers supplies, cooks utensils and any food related artisans tools, make it a little more versatile, make me a master chef like everyone wants
2 brewing potions should be an all-new way to cast spells like metamagic and ritual casting, any spell with an cast time of 1 action or 1 bonus action that affects only one creature on the artificer list is allowed to be turned into an elixir, when you do so you expend the appropriate spell slot to create an potion of the chosen spell, that an person can drink as an action to gain the effects, using your spellcasting abillity, without concentration and an maximum duration of 10 minutes is enforced, so an potion of invisibillity would only last for 10 minutes. This way we get an feature for alchemist that further makes them more versatile
3 having multiple experimental elixirs crafted with an higher level spell slots is a really cool idea, but like it might be a little strong, especially if we keep the temp hp thing at 9th level, you just straight up have effects better than 1st level spell slots and the way potions work means they would be really versatile, i dont know maybe it is fine, there are stonger class abuillities out there so if the totem barbarian gets resisttance to everything at 3rd level maybe i should not worry too much
4 just for fun, lets have a few choices at 15th level. Maybe you choose between three or four diffrent 6th level spells at 15th level, heal, create humonculus, heroes feast and harm for the spells you can cast with this feature, you choose one of them sort of like mystic arcanum and you cannot change it later
1. Fine, mostly fluff.
2. Really bad idea. You're now adding a cost to the person using the elixir. And it's almost never worth spending an action to take a potion rather than attacking. Which is also one of the many reasons experimental elixirs are so bad the other big one being the whole randomness.
3 Drop the temp hp, it makes no sense and is a lazy way to try to justify bad elixirs.
4. Make the subclass a full caster, or at least a 7/9th caster. Maybe something similar to a warlock's invocations.
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One-hour duration on any individual cannon. No permanent conjuration of it, which is fair-ish since it's much more potent than the Steel Defender.
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Can you quote the rules in case there is rules lawyering later on? Reading the character sheet summary of it and just can’t find it.
You're a DM (presumably). Rules lawyering can suck a lemon. Nevertheless:
"The cannon is a magical object. Regardless of size, the cannon has an AC of 18 and a number of hit points equal to five times your artificer level. It is immune to poison damage, psychic damage, and all conditions. If it is forced to make an ability check or a saving throw, treat all its ability scores as 10 (+0). If the mending spell is cast on it, it regains 2d6 hit points. It disappears if it is reduced to 0 hit points or after 1 hour. You can dismiss it early as an action."
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the only changes made to the alchemist were:
-they annoyingly moved the halved cost of crafting potions and quater time of crafting potions, instead you get something similar to it at 10th level but to all common and uncommon magic items, the only change i dont like but hey.
-replaced the humonculus with experimental elixir, yeah it was fun to have a little buddy and thematic as heck but it would not really fit all alchemist characters people might want to make
-moved 6th level feature to 5th and made it apply to more damage types, overall an improvement but they did move the free lesser restoration to 9th level
-a 9th level feature was added, free lesser restoration was moved to this spot
-14th level was moved to 15th, and it is exactly the same as before but you get to also cast heal
these are not bad changes, overall i would consider them improvements (it was nice to have faster crafting at 3rd level and to have it apply to only one kind of object, but i get why they changed that minor aspect)
the elixirs are all just as strong as 1st level spells, with the transformation potion letting you replicate an 2nd level spell in a limited manner and flight well doing something you will not be able to do until 5th level and will probably come up as soon as you have an mountain or an pit to wide to jump or a river or any obstacle, the only potion that i consider to beeven remotely bad is boldness becuase it is single person bless but hey even it got its uses, most of these dont need concentration and best of all, you can make them as an action out of combat, give them to a friend and more or less grant them the abillity to cast a spell on your behalf. Experimental elixir is cool and useful and while i would have been cool to have a feature that lets me make elixirs of any artificer or alchemist spell with an casting time of 1 action that targets only one target, this is an good feature, it is a lot of bang for your buck especially once they start to give away temp hp for free, you get all the utillity and supportive abillties you could ever want as an alchemist, the abillity to heal good, buff good, debuff enemies, and commit war crimes against your enemies with fire and acid
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3 of the 6 elixirs are almost exclusively useful within combat though. So the number of actions within combat do matter. If you have the luxury to prepare for an ambush, fantastic the action cost of elixirs within combat is 0. If you're saddled with an unexpected encounter hopefully the fighter already has the boldness elixir ready to use otherwise somebody is going to need to use their movement to hand it off to them so they can spend an action not attacking to drink it. If you're completely unprepared then any use will take two actions, yours and another party member's.
It means the Alchemist everyday has to choose between pre-casting spell slots and distributing elixirs to the right people vs holding onto spell slots to use for unexpected situations via spells. That's not necessarily a problem. But it is a complication and a potential consistent source of frustration. It's the kind of thing that makes me worry about making the wrong decision especially considering my inexperience with D&D in general.
The fact that the random elixir is free and all of the uses are beneficial doesn't really excuse the randomness. The Artillerist's first cannon is also free but not random, despite the fact that all three of the different cannons are useful. The first creation of a Steel Defender is free and a Battle Smith can recreate it for free at the end of long rest if necessary yet the Battles Smith is perfectly capable of commanding the Steel Defender at any point none of it's actions are taken at random.
The only reason Experimental Elixir is random is in it's name "Experimental Elixir" and it's not a good representation of experimentation. Any scientist worth their salt will keep notes on their experiments and should be able to reproduce their results for the same or similar expense as the first time they attempted things. If some random discovery of something useful occurred it shouldn't suddenly be more expensive to reproduce it the next time.
Having the Experimental Elixir be random, every day, unless using spell slots makes the Alchemist seem like drunk crack pot only vaguely aware of what they're doing. And if that's the character you want to play then have at it. Personally I'm really not fond of that aspect of experimental elixir.
If Experimental Elixir were instead a list of potions/elixirs that you learned to make over time with each time you learn a new elixir being selected by the roll of a die then the randomness would make more sense. It would actually feel like learning through experimentation or that your experimentation had some kind of purpose.
But officially it's six elixirs you ostensibly already know how to make at level 3 but only when you're trying really hard. Otherwise you end up making some other one by accident, but that's okay all the accidents are somehow, conveniently, helpful so hooray randomness, right? I mean it's not like careless combinations of chemicals are dangerous or anything.
How often do Artillerists or Battle Smiths even prepare longstrider? For that matter, how often does anyone prepare longstrider? My point about the swiftness potion is that unlike some of the other elixirs: Flight a weaker version of a good level 3 concentration spell (10 ft speed instead of 60), Transformation a weaker version of a good level 2 concentration spell (duration reduced), Boldness a weaker version of a great level 1 concentration spell (1 target instead of 3), and Resilience a weaker version of a good level 1 concentration spell (+1 AC instead of +2). Swiftness is a weaker version of a level 1 spell that (to my understanding) most casters already skip.
I mean yeah. My main point in that post was to point out people's dislike of the Alchemist or considering it underpowered wasn't about the randomness involved alone (though seriously it really doesn't help). An Artillerist can extend the use of one cannon out to potentially another combat encounter. An alchemist can probably only extend swiftness that far. Since it seems rather rare to me that multiple combats be less than 10 minutes apart, I could be very wrong about that. I'm well aware that boldness stacks with bless which is very good cause it would suck if one of the few things the Alchemist could uniquely do were to be made completely irrelevant by another class.
I do appreciate your assertion that Alchemists play better than they look because I haven't had the chance to play it yet.
I still love the dang subclass, despite the things that are annoying about it. It remains my favorite of the 3 official subclasses (still really hoping we see Archivist released someday).
But loving something doesn't mean I don't find the things annoying about it annoying as hell.
You missed the boat on this discussion the first time, ArtificeMeal. When Rising first dropped, a goodly chunk of folks in the UA forum were discussing the Experimental Elixir feature, and the strong consensus was that it was/is one of the weakest features available to any class, not just the artificer.
The lack of scaling with spell slots is awful: why can't you make two elixirs with a second-level slot, or three with a third? Instead, if you need to burn a high-level slot on one of these things you just waste one of your rare and precious advanced slots.
The randomization on your 'freebies' which is there solely and specifically because people can't let go of a bad shitty character trope (the Mad Doctor frizzy-haired idiot mixing whatever smells best around until either it explodes or he passes out from the fumes).
The loss of the exceptionally interesting and useful Alchemical Homunculus, only for it to be "given back" in drastically weakened form as a generic infusion because people don't like 'Pet Builds'.
It all adds up to a weak, undertuned, and trap-y feature that seems great until you break down what it actually does and figure out how much more bang for your buck you could get with pretty much any other class feature in the game.
Just...ugh.
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The elixirs primarily used for combat are boldness and resilience. Both last longer than a combat. The others may have combat uses but they also last longer than combat. The only time the action economy for using them comes into play is if the alchemist did not have the opportunity to get ready for the combat. That tends to be true of any spell caster using buffs too. In this case it's not necessarily the action of the alchemist performing the action.
Resilience is a bit of a toss up because it's 1 AC for the entire combat vs the better bonus from shield for a shorter duration using the same slot. I prefer shield but a person can get multiple encounters out of resilience and boldness is likely the best elixir on that list. A non-concentration buff in a system where concentration limits stacking spells is good.
The alchemist does not really need to choose between pre-casting that much. Fight and altering self are situational use abilities as they come up. A person knows if he or she wants a bonus to movement or needs healing. The other two are generally a case of doing one's homework before entering a room, just like other spells. Either there's a chance to buff before hand or there's a choice needed to be made.
The randomness comment is fluff perception. Mechanically it's okay because it's not common to get something that won't get used. It's just a bit pointless over just allowing a choice because all the options are still there if they are needed. The limited number of slots tends to leave alchemists and artillerists both spamming cantrips or weapon attacks.
I wasn't the person who brought up longstrider if you recall. ;-) Not taking longstrider just means a faster movement if the random elixir occurs. I would point out that swiftness and longstrider also stack. Not exactly a common tactic but if someone wants to play around with speed it's a decent increase for the duration without using up the bonus action or concentration as an alternative to multiple castings of expeditious retreat over the same amount of time. Kiters tactics.
All those other spells you mentioned you also included the advantage the elixirs have -- they don't use concentration. An artificer needs to wait until 5th level to prep alter self when he or she can already use the elixir at 3rd level and at 5th level that would also tie up concentration plus use up a higher level slot that could be used on something else. The only time the alter self spell is better is if the caster needs the longer duration. Fly is a similar example. An artificer can cast it at 9th level while an alchemist can use the elixir at 3rd level. The fly spell also requires concentration and uses up a higher level slot that could be used on something else. Fly at least has better speed but it's not better unless the speed matters (such as covering distance). What you seem to forget is the level delays in gaining those options and that concentration has competition.
The cannon duration can easily last multiple encounters assuming it doesn't get destroyed. It's easy to top up with mending between battles too. The longer duration does not change what the cannon is actually doing. It's providing a 2d8 bonus action attack or a 1d8+INTmod renewable temp hp bonus. IME it's usually the temp hp. At 3rd level that is a nicer unless the alchemist is working on some kind of multi-class PAM variant human or CE build. The delay for flaming sphere is less of a delay than an artillerist would wait for fly and the same as the artillerist waits for alter self. That's where one of the better options for a close enough bonus action comes from although healing word helps in the meantime while an artillerist might be losing the regular action to cure wounds. The approach is different to the similar result. Having said that, cannons cost less and last longer but alchemists still have that extra versatility at earlier levels.
To be honest, I think people wouldn't mind the Alchemist so much if the potions had something else to offset the randomness. I mean sure, it gets better when you get two potions or three potions at level 6 and 15, respectively - but there are a lot of other ways they could have done the potion to make it more interesting. For example:
A) remove the randomness at higher levels - It's just silly to have randomness at higher levels, especially when you've made the potions for the past 10 levels or so. Are they still experimental even when you've spent the whole campaign making it?
B) buffing the effects to offset the randomness nature - If the potions were a bit stronger then it wouldn't be so bad if it were still random, such as making the +1AC last an hour instead of ten minutes. Ten minutes means that you have to be really sure the fight will happen soon. An hour will at least help with a good portion of a dungeon till you need to short rest or something, and its only just 1AC anyways. Hardly gamebreaking.
C) scaling the potions with spell slot level - e.g. Flight speed increasing by 5 or 10 per spell level. I mean come on, you're a half caster, you really aren't likely to be using your 4-5th level spells for a potion to make a weaker effect than what a wizard/sorcerer can do.
D) More potion types at higher levels - Why do we only experiment with 6? Can't we experiment with other things like throwable potions that burst on impact, or potions that give spider climb?
Basically they could have made the potions more appealing, instead you're stuck with 6 types of potions that change every day, and you have to spend slots to get anything you want specifically. Yes it is great that they can be given out and don't require concentration, but they're so limited and lose impact at higher levels. That said, I am currently playing an alchemist and I am enjoying it. It's just hard finding good times to pre-emptively use potions, especially when the effects are so ehhh, outside of healing and flight potions.
That’s why I houseruled in the campaign I DM that if an Alchemist takes the Homunculus then they get the old one. That and they can make a number of free, random elixirs or alternatively they could maintain elixers they already made but haven’t used, a number per Long Rest = to the number of Infusions they can make. I also basically gave them a stripped-down version of the satchel back.
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i dont think the alchemist needs an buff, but if we are gonna do it here is who i would do it:'
1 all alchemist tools only features work with brewers supplies, cooks utensils and any food related artisans tools, make it a little more versatile, make me a master chef like everyone wants
2 brewing potions should be an all-new way to cast spells like metamagic and ritual casting, any spell with an cast time of 1 action or 1 bonus action that affects only one creature on the artificer list is allowed to be turned into an elixir, when you do so you expend the appropriate spell slot to create an potion of the chosen spell, that an person can drink as an action to gain the effects, using your spellcasting abillity, without concentration and an maximum duration of 10 minutes is enforced, so an potion of invisibillity would only last for 10 minutes. This way we get an feature for alchemist that further makes them more versatile
3 having multiple experimental elixirs crafted with an higher level spell slots is a really cool idea, but like it might be a little strong, especially if we keep the temp hp thing at 9th level, you just straight up have effects better than 1st level spell slots and the way potions work means they would be really versatile, i dont know maybe it is fine, there are stonger class abuillities out there so if the totem barbarian gets resisttance to everything at 3rd level maybe i should not worry too much
4 just for fun, lets have a few choices at 15th level. Maybe you choose between three or four diffrent 6th level spells at 15th level, heal, create humonculus, heroes feast and harm for the spells you can cast with this feature, you choose one of them sort of like mystic arcanum and you cannot change it later
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Ashrym, you don't need to keep repeating that things stack and the elixirs are concentration free. Those are aspects that I very much like about the Experimental Elixir. I'm aware these are things you can do with Experimental Elixir. Repeating the same aspects of this feature over and over again when I'm already aware of them doesn't really convince me of anything. It just takes up space.
Flight and Transformation are my favorite of the two elixirs precisely because they have useful and most importantly interesting applications both inside and outside of combat. I honestly wish we had more interesting elixirs like these.
Swiftness has little use outside of combat. It has use escaping from combat. And maybe extending the range one could get with out of a Jump spell (since you're so fond of mentioning things that stack). Having that 10 foot boost apply to speeds other than walking would make it seem like less of a disappointment when for some reason my tired drunk Alchemist brain decides to make that elixir instead of something better. It'd be more broadly useful and then actually equivalent to the first level spell Longstrider which is convenient since it already costs a 1st level spell slot when making it on purpose. That was my point. The other elixirs are at least equal to a 1st level spell (some of them stronger). Swiftness is not.
Heck I'd even be okay with Swiftness lasting only 10 minutes if that 10 foot boost applied more broadly. It'd still be less powerful than a 1st level spell but it'd at least provide better use (including stacking since THEN it'd stack with the Flight elixir.)
If it's pointless (to which I agree) why even have it? This is part of why I'm saying it shouldn't be a thing. I mean I could look at it only positively and say "Oh hey! Here's a free gift every day!" Except that ostensibly it's something the Alchemist makes themself. If it were instead described as some sort of magical care package from some sort of cosmic benefactor, "free gift every day" makes sense. But that doesn't really fit with the more generic alchemist theme.
Instead the most charitable description I can think to give it right now is that the Alchemist somehow makes potions in their sleep. They wake up every morning with a new elixir in hand that they can identify how it works but can't explain where it came from.
It might be mechanically okay, but it could be mechanically and thematically coherent. Why bake cognitive dissonance into a subclass feature?
What if instead of just rolling a d6 for the result, you rolled a d6 and added 1/2 your Artificer level (rounded down) and then chose a result equal to or less than the die roll?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, that's less random certainly. I guess the idea is that as you progress in skill you get better at making the elixirs? It still seems weird that spending a spell slot lets you automatically get to pick what you want though when not spending one doesn't. Though I suppose I can see that thematically as running through fewer ingredients. It also imposes a hierarchy of difficulty within the elixirs, not necessarily an issue and I think they'd be in the right order in that case. It's not a bad house rule.
I posted a thread with a reworking of Experimental Elixir when the (optional) randomness is on learning a new elixir. Progression through an increasing availabilty of options that the player can build over time basing it on how infusions work. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/artificer/59100-small-reworking-of-experimental-elixir
Battle smith is way stronger than Alchemist and a bit better than artilerist.
Alchemists power do not stack with each other. Can cast spells a bit better but has to use those slots for potion crafting.
Alchemist is the closest theme to full caster. No experimental is necessary. No need for poison immunity or any extra spell like ability also.
3rd level: you can craft spell infused items of all the spells you know by using spell slots of this class. Anyone can use them.
5th: chose a spell school. All spell slots will be counted as 1 spell level higher slots. You may chose from any full caster class spell list as long as it is from the school you have choosen. (Prepare 3rd level spells of one school)
9th: chose one(Can not be changed later);
- chose 2 extra schools for the 5th level ability
- For the class you have chosen on 5th level all spells slots used will be counted as +2 Spell slot. (Prepare 5th level spells of that school)
15th: The same as 9th level ability. (Prepare 8th level spells of that school)
Alchemist will be crafting temp spell stored items up to 8th level of 1school or chose other options. 2/3 spell caster.
I also think that Battle smith does not reflect its purpose. Why do they have to have a companion? Instead they should gain heavy armor and build an armor enabling their Int. for hit and damage. Also a sentient like weapon that they can command by bonus action which acts like a steel defender but worse.
New unearthed Arcana sub. Armor Smith is not necessary with that battle smith. So the unearthed arcana could released the construct master or effigy master style which would have answered the dreams of other artificer lowers. Might have a progression like, the size of the construct 3rd: 1 tiny + 1 medium (like steel defender) 5th: 2 Medium, 9th: 1 large +1 small or 2 Medium+1 tiny plus a group tactic ability 15th: An increase to the constructs capability. Every size increase would mean more options for the construct.
And the next UA could become a bio tech type with ooze armor acting like Venom of Marvel comics.
I think Battlesmith and Artillerist are pretty evenly matched as damage dealers overall, just in different ways.
I find it hard to judge if they're "better" than an Alchemist; I understand why people don't like the Alchemist, but I also don't think it's actually bad in terms of strength. The main issue with it IMO is that Wizards of the Coast took the UA version which was flexible and easy to adapt to a bunch of different themes, and rendered it down into almost being pure support.
With that in mind Alchemists actually have a good spell list; Ray of Sickness and Blight are both good damage spells, meanwhile Healing Word is IMO the best healing spell in the game, as healing is often more about getting players back up than the amount healed, so being able to do that as a bonus action at range is huge. The Intelligence bonus to acid etc. damage they get later on is okay, but it makes the most difference for spells with lower impact normally (so Healing Word again, plus the cantrips you'll be using to conserve spell slots).
Experimental Elixirs I'm so-so about; I don't like them mechanically because there are no new effects to unlock, and you have the ability to make the one you want right from the start (at the cost of a spell slot), so other than number you can make for free there's no progression and it's just a bit weird mechanically. It never feels like you're experimenting with elixirs, it feels like you're bad at making them unless you use magic.
The basic elixirs themselves are fine, and even when randomised I'd say the most situational one is Flight (great when you can find a way to take advantage of it, but otherwise it's meh) and some of them are really good. It sucks to burn limited spell slots early to get the one(s) you really want, but having several non-concentration Bless potions (Boldness) in your pocket isn't a bad thing for when you're expecting things to kick off, and depending upon your party you should always have someone who can benefit from one of the others.
I think the alchemist actually stacks up fine in terms of strength as a measure of benefit to the party as a whole; it can do damage with spells but it's not really as much of a damage dealer as the other sub-classes, it's more support. If your character idea fits the very particular Alchemist play-style then it'll be great and play well, but if it doesn't, then you may be better off taking another sub-class (or class) and just adding alchemist's supplies proficiency through a background so you can do some potion brewing on the side.
For those who want a more combat oriented Alchemist that can hold their own more easily then Yurei1453 has previewed their Toxicologist alternative sub-class which should be a lot of fun to play (not sure on an ETA for a homebrew release?).
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Alchemist isn't bad powerwise.
The real drawback is elixirs add versatility while lacking the efficiency of other options like cannons. Using the extra options elixirs give can burn through slots faster than using a cannon. Stella defender isn't exactly slot cost intensive. ;-)
No.
The only subclass that underwhelms is the Alchemist, and even that isn’t “bad,” just not as easy to use as the others.
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Yes as someone who's played a battle smith and an alchemist, the alchemist is 100% terrible (slight hyperbolie). The elixirs dont scale at all, plus their spell level is still half progrssion so their spell damage is 1/2 a wizards or clerics. They get no defensive advantages like the Armourer and most importantly... you make ONE elixer IRESPECTIVE of the spell slot level used... so hands up who thinks at L18 you'll want to use your only L5 spell slot to make a single 2D4+int healing potion? The same effect could be done with Healing word and a L1 spell slot.
It ends up making a handful of infusions that usually get dished out to the party (and an armourer would have more of them and do this better), picking up a shield and spamming Acid splash once, every turn. Thats it. Almost aything you can do, the Armourer, Artilleriest, and Battlesmith can do too, and usually with far more flare. Except for the whole "Flying potion at L3", not that I'd be bragging about my 10' flight speeds...
The Artillerist is far better at both damaging and to a lesser extent healing at range with their Protector healing turret options and wands,
The Armourer is better at damage than the alchemist with its gauntlets and or lightning launcher, has built in defensive options depending on model, and is better with infusion distribution with extra bonus infusion, and does not need to invest in Strength to use these attacks or wear its heavy armour without penalty giving them better attribute allocation.
The Battlesmith is better with damage and defense due to the options provided by the steel defender, plus its bonus proficinecy in martial weaponry. It also like the armorer can bypass strength requirement entirely as all its infused weapons can use int for attack and damage. Technicly this means they can also to some extent ignore dex too, given repeating or returning weapon infusions.
Nothing alchemists do can't be done better by any divine caster, or almost equally as well as the other 3 artificer types.
Its a RP flavour class. Underpowered like the old beast master rangers. You take it for style, just be prepared to be squishier, lower damage, and less effective than the party cleric.
PS nothing stopping you picking Alchemist supplies as your starting artisan tools with any of the other class/artifcer sub classes/races and doing everything they do as that. It just costs you gold per use instead of all your spell slots.
Why, for the 10 minute swim speed or the 1d6+str damage? Both are super situational.
And what corner case is this useful for.
They can float for 10 minutes at 10'. At best this allows 1 character to overcome an obstacle, or assist the party. in combat you may luck out and float above it, but outside of tier 1 how many encounters don't have ranged attackers taking into account dungeon crawls where the ceilings would prevent it.
They don't require concentration, but they do cost you an action to create, and the other character an action to use. (also 2d4+int not 1d8+int). And all those alchemist spells that deal fire or poison (The most commonly resisted or just immune damage types). Acid and necrotic are better damage options, but what 3 acid spells and 1 necrotic.
And no you must use the wand as the spell focus in order to receive the bonus. [That statement doesn't even begin to make sense. It would be like attuning to two magic swords, only using one and then declaring because you've go the other one you get both bonuses.]
Why? This is almost as much of an insult as the whole random elixir. They apparently don't want to actually allow players to have a useful elixir, so give out temp HP? How does this fit into any alchemist theme? Also almost every other class has the ability to give out temp HP to multiple creatures, so spending a spell slot for a handful for one character is not efficient. If you're claiming that the temp HP are worth it then you're admitting the base effect isn't worth it.
So far everything you mentioned can be done better by multiple other classes, bard, cleric, druid all come to mind and those other classes get to do additional things. The alchemist subclass is just disappointing. Their support capabilities are less then the other sub-classes, their damage is less then the other subclasses. The only thing they could come up with was another bad (and completely unnecessary) healing subclass that honestly doesn't do it that great either?
Yes greater restoration and heal are nice, but that just reinforces what I've been saying. They're locked into a very limited support only role. And remember every elixir an alchemist makes outside of the random takes a spell slot. Even at higher levels, using that 3rd level spell slot creates one elixir with no adjustment for up-casting.
1. Fine, mostly fluff.
2. Really bad idea. You're now adding a cost to the person using the elixir. And it's almost never worth spending an action to take a potion rather than attacking. Which is also one of the many reasons experimental elixirs are so bad the other big one being the whole randomness.
3 Drop the temp hp, it makes no sense and is a lazy way to try to justify bad elixirs.
4. Make the subclass a full caster, or at least a 7/9th caster. Maybe something similar to a warlock's invocations.