Vicious Mockery is weak, but also free. In a void, this means it's not all that useful; just burn all your slots throwing as many of your heavy hitters as you can, and giving everyone all of your buffs. Over the course of a longer adventuring day, however, strategic use of VM can mean a slot saved for future encounters, whether by preventing an attack from hitting or by dealing weakened enemies a finishing blow. It can also be used with hands full, and provides a very synergistic reaction candidate for War Caster (hold a Reach weapon to extend your opportunity attack range and position yourself properly, and you can cripple a strong enemy with VM if it tries to pass you to get to one of your allies).
Overall, if you're looking solely at the damage, it isn't worth using past the early game. But depending on the circumstances, it can be very useful as a strategic tool in your kit, and especially shines when your DM likes to pit you against, say, 3 or more encounters between long rests.
I played a bard this weekend for the first time in 5e, brand new campaign at L1. Vicious Mockery not only kept an ogre from smushing our barbarian, fighter or monk, but that d4 of psychic damage ate his last hit points! It's a neat little tool, given the right job. I'm also our party's sad excuse for a healer, so a cantrip that prevents injury and doesn't use up spell slots appeals.
I played a bard this weekend for the first time in 5e, brand new campaign at L1. Vicious Mockery not only kept an ogre from smushing our barbarian, fighter or monk, but that d4 of psychic damage ate his last hit points! It's a neat little tool, given the right job. I'm also our party's sad excuse for a healer, so a cantrip that prevents injury and doesn't use up spell slots appeals.
It's great at low levels. As you get higher it begins to fall behind.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Vicious Mockery does not suck. It's weak in damage, but its other feature is great. Disadvantage on the next attack on a failed save, is great. Besides, who wouldn't want to kill the enemy by insulting it. Another thing, a bard doesn't have other choice if it wants a damage cantrip.
I mean if its good great or overated on low levels we all seem to have different opinion but with tashas at level 4 and 8 (etc.) you could even swtich it. So the investment is no longer permanent.
Vicious Mockery does not suck. It's weak in damage, but its other feature is great. Disadvantage on the next attack on a failed save, is great. Besides, who wouldn't want to kill the enemy by insulting it. Another thing, a bard doesn't have other choice if it wants a damage cantrip.
Vicious Mockery does not suck. It's weak in damage, but its other feature is great. Disadvantage on the next attack on a failed save, is great. Besides, who wouldn't want to kill the enemy by insulting it. Another thing, a bard doesn't have other choice if it wants a damage cantrip.
Thunderclap.
Yeah, i only have the core books, so i tend to forget other stuff
Vicious Mockery does not suck. It's weak in damage, but its other feature is great. Disadvantage on the next attack on a failed save, is great. Besides, who wouldn't want to kill the enemy by insulting it. Another thing, a bard doesn't have other choice if it wants a damage cantrip.
Thunderclap.
Yeah, i only have the core books, so i tend to forget other stuff
That said...
vicious mockery does have an actual range to it. Thunderclap not so much.
You know (just for laughs and as a non-serious question) if a enemy were to plug their ears with cloth or whatever during combat, wouldn't it completely negate Vicious Mockery?
I mean, though the target doesn't have to understand the words, it does have to hear them...
Just thinking how funny it would be if a enemy just put its fingers in its ears as a bonus action every turn and responded "I can't hear you!" lol.
It would in theory, unless the bard's vocal component caused the a glowing neon sign with the insult written on it to appear, or telepathically broadcasts the insult. The latter is even supported by the cantrip's damage type! ;3
I played a bard this weekend for the first time in 5e, brand new campaign at L1. Vicious Mockery not only kept an ogre from smushing our barbarian, fighter or monk, but that d4 of psychic damage ate his last hit points! It's a neat little tool, given the right job. I'm also our party's sad excuse for a healer, so a cantrip that prevents injury and doesn't use up spell slots appeals.
It's great at low levels. As you get higher it begins to fall behind.
It’s handy when you want to nerf something with a single big attack, but now that Mind Sliver is out VM is totally overshadowed. It has a better damage die, a less common save type, and the rider is more useful, or at least easier it’s more reliably useful.
I played a bard this weekend for the first time in 5e, brand new campaign at L1. Vicious Mockery not only kept an ogre from smushing our barbarian, fighter or monk, but that d4 of psychic damage ate his last hit points! It's a neat little tool, given the right job. I'm also our party's sad excuse for a healer, so a cantrip that prevents injury and doesn't use up spell slots appeals.
It's great at low levels. As you get higher it begins to fall behind.
It’s handy when you want to nerf something with a single big attack, but now that Mind Sliver is out VM is totally overshadowed. It has a better damage die, a less common save type, and the rider is more useful, or at least easier it’s more reliably useful.
the usefulness is equal but different. Mind Sliver is just more offensive where Vicious Mockery is defensive. They don't serve quite the same purposes.
I think it’s great for a what it is, a cantrip. Mind sliver might be slightly better but it’s all situational (if you can find a way to grab both...not with a secret though...).
The only class that will casts cantrips for actual damage later on are warlocks and any melee caster with booming blade or GFB.
VM and MS fill a nice slot. At later levels VM won’t help much against martial mobs but will work well against casters and MS will help you maintain some of your CCs.
At will damage just isn’t what a bard does. If you really want at will damage then dip two in hexblade but you lll lose some spell casting power in 7th and 8th lvl slots which can be pretty important (especially when you consider that even with EB/AB you’ll only be doing an additional 42 damage on average). Let the other players DPS while you CC and control the battlefield.
I think it’s great for a what it is, a cantrip. Mind sliver might be slightly better but it’s all situational (if you can find a way to grab both...not with a secret though...).
The only class that will casts cantrips for actual damage later on are warlocks and any melee caster with booming blade or GFB.
VM and MS fill a nice slot. At later levels VM won’t help much against martial mobs but will work well against casters and MS will help you maintain some of your CCs.
At will damage just isn’t what a bard does. If you really want at will damage then dip two in hexblade but you lll lose some spell casting power in 7th and 8th lvl slots which can be pretty important (especially when you consider that even with EB/AB you’ll only be doing an additional 42 damage on average). Let the other players DPS while you CC and control the battlefield.
You can and will run out of spell slots, and it's nice to have something useful to do with your action at all times.
I think it’s great for a what it is, a cantrip. Mind sliver might be slightly better but it’s all situational (if you can find a way to grab both...not with a secret though...).
The only class that will casts cantrips for actual damage later on are warlocks and any melee caster with booming blade or GFB.
VM and MS fill a nice slot. At later levels VM won’t help much against martial mobs but will work well against casters and MS will help you maintain some of your CCs.
At will damage just isn’t what a bard does. If you really want at will damage then dip two in hexblade but you lll lose some spell casting power in 7th and 8th lvl slots which can be pretty important (especially when you consider that even with EB/AB you’ll only be doing an additional 42 damage on average). Let the other players DPS while you CC and control the battlefield.
Casters will use Cantrips at all levels. It's their version of a standard martial weapon attack and is more efficient than pretty much any caster using a melee weapon with the exception of a couple of builds, One being some Melee Cleric builds, and the other being Blade Pact warlocks or other similar "Gish" builds.
the point I’m trying to get at is that VM and MS are both still good later on and what you give up damage wise is minimal compared to what you can gain.
To make up for damage I like to grab spiritual weapon as an additional magic secret or if there’s a rogue or GWM build in the group I might grab guiding bolt (if possible).
So what two cantrips do you take when you don't take VM and what do you do in combat while you don't use spell slots or concentrate on stuff?
From this list i would probably go Minor Illusion and VM, eventough i really don't like VM. As MI depends on the DM, else I would probably take Mage Hand and VM or VM and Predigistation cause for me its the i am a spellcaster spell. Snip and the candle burns, always be clean, food is never bland. :)
Would be so extremly useful in real life. Like unseen servant. That is the reason i want to learn magic. Never do chores again in your whole life...
So what two cantrips do you take when you don't take VM and what do you do in combat while you don't use spell slots or concentrate on stuff?
There's the rub, eh? Bards have two damaging cantrips on their spell list: Vicious Mockery and Thunderclap. The only other cantrips with combat application are True Strike and Blade Ward. If you're playing a caster primarily, getting other cantrips can be expensive (feats or Magical secrets.)
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Vicious Mockery is weak, but also free. In a void, this means it's not all that useful; just burn all your slots throwing as many of your heavy hitters as you can, and giving everyone all of your buffs. Over the course of a longer adventuring day, however, strategic use of VM can mean a slot saved for future encounters, whether by preventing an attack from hitting or by dealing weakened enemies a finishing blow. It can also be used with hands full, and provides a very synergistic reaction candidate for War Caster (hold a Reach weapon to extend your opportunity attack range and position yourself properly, and you can cripple a strong enemy with VM if it tries to pass you to get to one of your allies).
Overall, if you're looking solely at the damage, it isn't worth using past the early game. But depending on the circumstances, it can be very useful as a strategic tool in your kit, and especially shines when your DM likes to pit you against, say, 3 or more encounters between long rests.
It's extremely good defensively, it's a support cantrip best used on your team members' foes while you sit in the back lines
I played a bard this weekend for the first time in 5e, brand new campaign at L1. Vicious Mockery not only kept an ogre from smushing our barbarian, fighter or monk, but that d4 of psychic damage ate his last hit points! It's a neat little tool, given the right job. I'm also our party's sad excuse for a healer, so a cantrip that prevents injury and doesn't use up spell slots appeals.
It's great at low levels. As you get higher it begins to fall behind.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Vicious Mockery does not suck. It's weak in damage, but its other feature is great. Disadvantage on the next attack on a failed save, is great. Besides, who wouldn't want to kill the enemy by insulting it. Another thing, a bard doesn't have other choice if it wants a damage cantrip.
I mean if its good great or overated on low levels we all seem to have different opinion but with tashas at level 4 and 8 (etc.) you could even swtich it. So the investment is no longer permanent.
Thunderclap.
Blank
Yeah, i only have the core books, so i tend to forget other stuff
That said...
vicious mockery does have an actual range to it. Thunderclap not so much.
Blank
You know (just for laughs and as a non-serious question) if a enemy were to plug their ears with cloth or whatever during combat, wouldn't it completely negate Vicious Mockery?
I mean, though the target doesn't have to understand the words, it does have to hear them...
Just thinking how funny it would be if a enemy just put its fingers in its ears as a bonus action every turn and responded "I can't hear you!" lol.
It would in theory, unless the bard's vocal component caused the a glowing neon sign with the insult written on it to appear, or telepathically broadcasts the insult. The latter is even supported by the cantrip's damage type! ;3
The fact that the enemy gets to roll a saving throw is meant to be that attempt to cover their ears IMHO.
It’s handy when you want to nerf something with a single big attack, but now that Mind Sliver is out VM is totally overshadowed. It has a better damage die, a less common save type, and the rider is more useful, or at least easier it’s more reliably useful.
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the usefulness is equal but different. Mind Sliver is just more offensive where Vicious Mockery is defensive. They don't serve quite the same purposes.
I think it’s great for a what it is, a cantrip. Mind sliver might be slightly better but it’s all situational (if you can find a way to grab both...not with a secret though...).
The only class that will casts cantrips for actual damage later on are warlocks and any melee caster with booming blade or GFB.
VM and MS fill a nice slot. At later levels VM won’t help much against martial mobs but will work well against casters and MS will help you maintain some of your CCs.
At will damage just isn’t what a bard does. If you really want at will damage then dip two in hexblade but you lll lose some spell casting power in 7th and 8th lvl slots which can be pretty important (especially when you consider that even with EB/AB you’ll only be doing an additional 42 damage on average). Let the other players DPS while you CC and control the battlefield.
You can and will run out of spell slots, and it's nice to have something useful to do with your action at all times.
Casters will use Cantrips at all levels. It's their version of a standard martial weapon attack and is more efficient than pretty much any caster using a melee weapon with the exception of a couple of builds, One being some Melee Cleric builds, and the other being Blade Pact warlocks or other similar "Gish" builds.
the point I’m trying to get at is that VM and MS are both still good later on and what you give up damage wise is minimal compared to what you can gain.
To make up for damage I like to grab spiritual weapon as an additional magic secret or if there’s a rogue or GWM build in the group I might grab guiding bolt (if possible).
The internet is hilarious that this discussion is still ongoing. XD
How about what would you take instead of VM as a Cantrip? As a Bard you can select two cantrips what is the best choice when you don't take VM?
Cause i am too lazy to go through all spells I link RPG bot's side. I am not 100% on board with all ratings, but I would say gives a good overview?
https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/bard/spells.html
So what two cantrips do you take when you don't take VM and what do you do in combat while you don't use spell slots or concentrate on stuff?
From this list i would probably go Minor Illusion and VM, eventough i really don't like VM. As MI depends on the DM, else I would probably take Mage Hand and VM or VM and Predigistation cause for me its the i am a spellcaster spell. Snip and the candle burns, always be clean, food is never bland. :)
Would be so extremly useful in real life. Like unseen servant. That is the reason i want to learn magic. Never do chores again in your whole life...
There's the rub, eh? Bards have two damaging cantrips on their spell list: Vicious Mockery and Thunderclap. The only other cantrips with combat application are True Strike and Blade Ward. If you're playing a caster primarily, getting other cantrips can be expensive (feats or Magical secrets.)