So, I've been considering playing a cleric for the first time and have been looking at the twilight domain in particular since it fits my character idea best.
I was wondering why the subclass, and most other cleric subclasses for that matter, even need the martial weapons proficiency? They don't have any extra attacks, nor do they even have spells that buff their melee weapon damage. Not to mention sacred flame and all the other offensive spells.
Ideally I would like my character to be a knightly character (which is probably the only reason for the martial weapons in the subclass, for that theme, right?), but also I'd like to have the peaceful vibe of night time stars and twilight for the sake of keeping with my backstory. Also would like to summon my guardian angel in combat later too with planar ally, so I'd rather not choose paladin instead.
I guess I'm just frustrated to know that I can use these weapons, but there's little point because the subclass's spells are a billion times more efficient.
Can anyone explain why the subclass bothers to have it without any extra attacks and how, if at all, I can optimise that melee side of things with the twilight domain?
Doesn't have to be melee - even if you spec into Str as your third stat for heavy armor, you can still throw weapons. With 300 foot darkvision, ranged attacks are probably best attacks. You can also focus on Dexterity if you like and wield a heavy crossbow.
If I were making a Strength Twilight Cleric, it would probably look like this:
Half-Elf
WIS 17 CON 16 STR 16 DEX 8 INT 8 CHA 8
Ideal equipment: Plate, shield, back quiver of javelins, hip sack of whips. Make sure skills include Athletics for whip-based Shoves.
Well, you do get divine strike (+d8 radiant damage to melee attacks) at level 8, which goes up to 2d8 at 14. So your weapon attacks are going to be pretty solid. You won't get as many attacks, but they'll hit for decent damage. Yes, spells will be a better choice, usually, but you can run out of spells. And some creatures will have good saves to the point that attacking their AC is the better option.
Well, you do get divine strike (+d8 radiant damage to melee attacks) at level 8, which goes up to 2d8 at 14. So your weapon attacks are going to be pretty solid. You won't get as many attacks, but they'll hit for decent damage. Yes, spells will be a better choice, usually, but you can run out of spells. And some creatures will have good saves to the point that attacking their AC is the better option.
1) Divine Strike is any weapon, not just melee.
2) Any Cleric with Divine Strike can give up L14 scaling for the 1d8 damage to also apply to cantrips. Twilight has arguably the best Divine Strike, since it deals Psychic, not Radiant, but even so (if you swap, the 1d8 becomes Radiant).
My question is why Forge Clerics do NOT get proficiency with martial weapons. Tempest does, which arguably should NEVER be using a weapon as they are the castery-est of all of the Clerics.
You would think that a Cleric who's god is all about making weapons and armor would be able to use all of the weapons and armor. They would even get a benefit as they can Blessing of the Forge their weapon to make it a +1 weapon at level 2, but nope.
Sorry, rant over.
That's a really good point, I agree!
Maybe it was for balancing purposes, as in they couldn't be given weapon proficiencies because they have been given Smith's tools instead? This would be along the same lines as making a custom background, swapping one proficiency for another.
But I've never looked at making or modifying a class, so I'm not really sure
Like people have said before, Divine Strike is usually a potent way to deliver cantrip-level damage without having to rely on saves that may or may not be hard to land at the moment.
Also, yea Forge and Order domain not getting martial proficiency bugs the ever-living hell out of me. I can sort of understand Nature domain not getting it, since they have access to Shillelagh, which means that they can essentially become a pure-wis martial cleric without picking up a warhammer or anything, but I digress.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Like people have said before, Divine Strike is usually a potent way to deliver cantrip-level damage without having to rely on saves that may or may not be hard to land at the moment.
Also, yea Forge and Order domain not getting martial proficiency bugs the ever-living hell out of me. I can sort of understand Nature domain not getting it, since they have access to Shillelagh, which means that they can essentially become a pure-wis martial cleric without picking up a warhammer or anything, but I digress.
I can definitely understand a nature cleric not getting martial weapons, yeah
Generally speaking it's thematically not their style
Of course divine strike is only available to War domain clerics, which I guess makes melee less viable for Twilight domain and such...
Of course divine strike is only available to War domain clerics, which I guess makes melee less viable for Twilight domain and such...
Most domains of cleric get divine strike (the exceptions being peace, light, grave and arcana who get potent spellcasting instead). There is a slight difference in that a twilight clerics divine strike gives radiant damage where a war cler's strikes are the same damage as the weapon but in terms of resistances/vulnerabilities they is probably about even unless you are on an evil campaign fighting a lot of celestials.
Of course divine strike is only available to War domain clerics, which I guess makes melee less viable for Twilight domain and such...
Most domains of cleric get divine strike (the exceptions being peace, light, grave and arcana who get potent spellcasting instead). There is a slight difference in that a twilight clerics divine strike gives radiant damage where a war cler's strikes are the same damage as the weapon but in terms of resistances/vulnerabilities they is probably about even unless you are on an evil campaign fighting a lot of celestials.
I think that War Domain might actually have one of the worst divine strikes, actually. Radiant isn't resisted often by non celestials, and its a safe bet for most campaigns that you won't be fighting angels, making radiant a reliable damage type. According to an errata from a while back DS isn't magical damage; This means that unless you have a special weapon that does a unique damage type, you're dealing non-magical piercing, slashing, or blunt damage as a War Domain cleric with divine strike. As the text is written for DS on War Domain, I'd say that if you have a flame tongue or something, it could deal slashing or fire damage, since it only specifies that it does the same damage type as your weapon's attack. But this is getting off topic.
But uh yea, as others have said, a lot of clerics get heavy armor and martial proficiencies as well as divine strike and full spellcasting. Depending on how you prepare your spells and your choice of domain, you could play a cleric like a support or a hardline tank/dps, It's one of the most versatile classes in the game for this reason. Twilight Domain is mostly themed around being a tank, so you can expect to get a bit in the fray, or at least defend the back line. wearing a shield and plate mail will get you up to a decent AC, and its not as if cleric lacks tools for close range. Spirit Guardians and Spirit Shroud, among other things are good spells for close/medium range damage augmentation and battlefield control. As a twilight cleric, you're more or less the vigilant, ever-ready sentinel archetype. Smack some heads and protect your buds. Of course, you could also play it differently. It's your choice. That's the beauty of clerics, it's entirely up to how you want to play them. With the class option to replace divine strike/potent spellcasting with a 1d8 radiant on a spell/melee attack, it's even easier to play a cleric how you want, so depending on your tastes, you might not even want to use heavy armor/martial weapons as a main part of your character's build. Also this is off topic, but friendly reminder that Twilight Cleric's channel divinity allows you to basically fly at will a few times a day at level 6 when you get Steps of the Night. Twilight Sanctuary specifies that its area is filled with dim light rather than producing/creating dim light, which means the radius is simply just dim light, no matter where you are. Steps of the night lets you fly for 1 minute if you're in dim light. If you're ever in need of flight mid-battle and don't want to rely on a potentially unreliable catalyst, well, there you go.
My question is why Forge Clerics do NOT get proficiency with martial weapons. Tempest does, which arguably should NEVER be using a weapon as they are the castery-est of all of the Clerics.
You would think that a Cleric who's god is all about making weapons and armor would be able to use all of the weapons and armor. They would even get a benefit as they can Blessing of the Forge their weapon to make it a +1 weapon at level 2, but nope.
Sorry, rant over.
I play a tempest cleric and the ONLY reason I can imagine is because someone at wotc was pissed they couldn't use a warhammer on a tempest cleric to be more thor like OR because its usually the weapon associated with storm gods.
My question is why Forge Clerics do NOT get proficiency with martial weapons. Tempest does, which arguably should NEVER be using a weapon as they are the castery-est of all of the Clerics.
You would think that a Cleric who's god is all about making weapons and armor would be able to use all of the weapons and armor. They would even get a benefit as they can Blessing of the Forge their weapon to make it a +1 weapon at level 2, but nope.
Sorry, rant over.
I play a tempest cleric and the ONLY reason I can imagine is because someone at wotc was pissed they couldn't use a warhammer on a tempest cleric to be more thor like OR because its usually the weapon associated with storm gods.
With Thunderwave, Destructive Wave, Their reaction ability, Their ability to increase thunder damage which all 3 of those do, as well as the thunder damage their divine strike does. There is plenty of reason for Tempest Clerics to be up in the front lines. Martial Weapons just lends to that even more if that's the way that one wants to play them. It's not just some Thor Complex of some design member on a purely ranged caster.
Yea, tempest cleric is very much a hard frontliner. They're the oppressive, consistent AOE shockwave that physically bats enemies away with waves of lightning/thunder/wind. Not to mention that flavor wise, tempest gods are usually associated with wrath/justice/combat anyway, so it would make sense for them to be proficient in martial skills. As for why its a warhammer, I believe that the blunt weapon stuff is a holdover from older editions where clerics couldn't use weapons that drew blood? That's why the default martial weapon for clerics is a Warhammer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
My question is why Forge Clerics do NOT get proficiency with martial weapons. Tempest does, which arguably should NEVER be using a weapon as they are the castery-est of all of the Clerics.
You would think that a Cleric who's god is all about making weapons and armor would be able to use all of the weapons and armor. They would even get a benefit as they can Blessing of the Forge their weapon to make it a +1 weapon at level 2, but nope.
Sorry, rant over.
They work best as dwarves, when you learn battleaxe and warhammer. So maybeye they wanted to reinforce the theme, that dwarves should be the forge clerics?
My question is why Forge Clerics do NOT get proficiency with martial weapons. Tempest does, which arguably should NEVER be using a weapon as they are the castery-est of all of the Clerics.
You would think that a Cleric who's god is all about making weapons and armor would be able to use all of the weapons and armor. They would even get a benefit as they can Blessing of the Forge their weapon to make it a +1 weapon at level 2, but nope.
Sorry, rant over.
I play a tempest cleric and the ONLY reason I can imagine is because someone at wotc was pissed they couldn't use a warhammer on a tempest cleric to be more thor like OR because its usually the weapon associated with storm gods.
With Thunderwave, Destructive Wave, Their reaction ability, Their ability to increase thunder damage which all 3 of those do, as well as the thunder damage their divine strike does. There is plenty of reason for Tempest Clerics to be up in the front lines. Martial Weapons just lends to that even more if that's the way that one wants to play them. It's not just some Thor Complex of some design member on a purely ranged caster.
That's the thing though. They are front liners, but they should never need to use martial weapons as their spells should be dealing the brunt of their damage.
Forge clerics get no buff to their spells, and three of the spells on their expanded list involve buffing a weapon (not to mention their level 1 Blessing of the Forge can be applied to a simple OR martial weapon). I am not saying that Tempest SHOULDN'T have it, but if only Forge or Tempest was going to have it, it should have been Forge.
The Maker of Weapons... The forge master. Is rarely a master of weapons... Or fighting. They are usually the support characters. They pour their souls into the weapons, not using them. Entire philosophies are built around this idea and the Forge Cleric embodies this way of thinking. Most of their Spell list isn't combat spells. It's a spell list chock full of Support backed up with a couple of the better item creation spells out of the small handful that exist. Even most of their class buff's revolve around creating things and buffing/supporting. Just because they can buff weapons does not mean that it has to be their weapon. That is narrow selfish thinking to the usage of the list. Those buffs can often be better put to use in the hands of others in the party.
So why should the Forge Cleric be proficient in Martial weapons? That's like saying the man that makes the perfect Katana can only be a Sword Master even though that's usually far from the truth.
My question is why Forge Clerics do NOT get proficiency with martial weapons. Tempest does, which arguably should NEVER be using a weapon as they are the castery-est of all of the Clerics.
You would think that a Cleric who's god is all about making weapons and armor would be able to use all of the weapons and armor. They would even get a benefit as they can Blessing of the Forge their weapon to make it a +1 weapon at level 2, but nope.
Sorry, rant over.
I play a tempest cleric and the ONLY reason I can imagine is because someone at wotc was pissed they couldn't use a warhammer on a tempest cleric to be more thor like OR because its usually the weapon associated with storm gods.
With Thunderwave, Destructive Wave, Their reaction ability, Their ability to increase thunder damage which all 3 of those do, as well as the thunder damage their divine strike does. There is plenty of reason for Tempest Clerics to be up in the front lines. Martial Weapons just lends to that even more if that's the way that one wants to play them. It's not just some Thor Complex of some design member on a purely ranged caster.
That's the thing though. They are front liners, but they should never need to use martial weapons as their spells should be dealing the brunt of their damage.
Forge clerics get no buff to their spells, and three of the spells on their expanded list involve buffing a weapon (not to mention their level 1 Blessing of the Forge can be applied to a simple OR martial weapon). I am not saying that Tempest SHOULDN'T have it, but if only Forge or Tempest was going to have it, it should have been Forge.
The Maker of Weapons... The forge master. Is rarely a master of weapons... Or fighting. They are usually the support characters. They pour their souls into the weapons, not using them. Entire philosophies are built around this idea and the Forge Cleric embodies this way of thinking. Most of their Spell list isn't combat spells. It's a spell list chock full of Support backed up with a couple of the better item creation spells out of the small handful that exist. Even most of their class buff's revolve around creating things and buffing/supporting. Just because they can buff weapons does not mean that it has to be their weapon. That is narrow selfish thinking to the usage of the list. Those buffs can often be better put to use in the hands of others in the party.
So why should the Forge Cleric be proficient in Martial weapons? That's like saying the man that makes the perfect Katana can only be a Sword Master even though that's usually far from the truth.
The first level spell they get is Searing Smite, which only has a range of Self. And their spell list isn't chock full of support spells. They also get Heat Metal, which is one of the best offensive spells in game. The only support spell they get that other Clerics don't is Protection from Energy, which would arguably help them fill the role of a tank better than a support.
And if you're tanking, you need to be able to deal enough damage that enemies don't decide that the wizard is a better target. Everything about the Forge Cleric is a front liner: +1 to AC at level 6, resistance to weapon damage at level 17. They even get a Divine Strike to add fire damage to their weapon attacks, so I don't buy the shoehorned support role you're proposing.
And as far as theme/flavor, a master weapon creator would need to know how to wield them well enough to test them, check the balance, length, etc. He's not going to be the Sword Master (like a Fighter), but they would know well enough how to use it.
heat Metal is a ranged spell. it has no basis in the fact that they should be martial over a caster. More than just Forge Clerics use this spell without getting into melee combat. So your really basing everything in your argument off of Searing Smite. A single spell. In a list of over 10.
The other first level spell that they always get is Identify.
The Forge Cleric isn't a tank. What they are is heavily armored which is not necessarily the same thing. Heavily Armored can be just as useful for protecting that wizard through physical position. It doesn't have to be through damage. Combined with regular cleric spells like spirit guardians. They can be dangerous guardians without ever swinging a weapon. But heavily armored has a completely different aspect that your completely ignoring. The Heavily Armored target is the one that can move around the battlefield more freely. So they can choose when and where to lend their support or get into dangerous situations to apply bigger touch heals if they wish. They don't just let the enemy dictate what they can do and where they can go. This fact about movement can apply to Tanks as well. They are designed to be able to move around through threats and risk less harm from drawing attacks from others. Your Main Healer and Support character benefits from this kind of thing as well.
I don't know if this was up for debate; Forge Cleric is definitely more of a support/utility cleric than a tank. You can totally build it like a tank, it has nice tools for it, but I think Forge is more for people who want to play a cleric but have some unique things to use creatively throughout their campaign. That being said, Forge has the potential to be one of the better cleric build tanks; They can easily make their own gear so long as they have the available gold or materials and they can boost their own AC with blessing of the forge or whatever.
Also, not to nitpick but they do get access to magic and elemental weapon, both of which require, well, weapons. You can totally cast it on a teammate if you want, but realistically speaking most people are going to use it on themselves. Protection from energy is also pretty defense-oriented and worth using from time to time. I still think their spell list leans more towards utility than tanking, but it's not a black and white separation of the two, more of versatile mix of weapon bolstering, viable spells suitable for both offense and defense, and some wacky shit to top it all off.
This is an edit, wow I forgot soul of the forge adds a +1 to your AC while wearing heavy armor. If you wanted to be greedy and use your blessing on yourself, you could totally have 20 AC without getting a single magic item or investing in gear beyond starter equipment. And the capstone gives you rage-like resistances while you're wearing heavy armor. Ok yea, you can definitely consider this one of the top 3 choices for tanking clerics.
I don't know if this was up for debate; Forge Cleric is definitely more of a support/utility cleric than a tank. You can totally build it like a tank, it has nice tools for it, but I think Forge is more for people who want to play a cleric but have some unique things to use creatively throughout their campaign. That being said, Forge has the potential to be one of the better cleric build tanks; They can easily make their own gear so long as they have the available gold or materials and they can boost their own AC with blessing of the forge or whatever.
Also, not to nitpick but they do get access to magic and elemental weapon, both of which require, well, weapons. You can totally cast it on a teammate if you want, but realistically speaking most people are going to use it on themselves. Protection from energy is also pretty defense-oriented and worth using from time to time. I still think their spell list leans more towards utility than tanking, but it's not a black and white separation of the two, more of versatile mix of weapon bolstering, viable spells suitable for both offense and defense, and some wacky shit to top it all off.
This is an edit, wow I forgot soul of the forge adds a +1 to your AC while wearing heavy armor. If you wanted to be greedy and use your blessing on yourself, you could totally have 20 AC without getting a single magic item or investing in gear beyond starter equipment. And the capstone gives you rage-like resistances while you're wearing heavy armor. Ok yea, you can definitely consider this one of the top 3 choices for tanking clerics.
Realistically speaking. They are usually going to use it on themselves because they are either taught by the older generation of players to think about themselves and not their teams. Or they are following guides that are written from a rather selfish perspective more often than not. There are plenty of newer players that don't even consider casting these spells on others even because they could because the places they learn and their experiences with gaming don't as often lead to that. And that is primariy the fault of certain older editions of the game that are still leaving their nasty stained fingerprints all over mentalities about the game everywhere even after 7 years of 5e being out with a different focus from said certain older editions.
Also... a 20AC isn't all that uncommon even without magical items. That's one of the mistakes that many players make as they go overboard on talking about how you need magical items or want to downplay other classes about their Own AC's.
It's not uncommon, but 20 AC without changing out of chainmail and the shield you got at level 1? That's pretty nice in my opinion. and if you just so happen to upgrade to plate, well hey, that +2 AC follows you.
Also feels like this thread has been highjacked by Forge Cleric discussion.
I wasn't using Searing Smite and Heat Metal to say they should be martial, I was pointing those out to say that does not shoehorn them in as a support. And Heat Metal has a range, but suffers no consequences from casting in melee range either.
How exactly does a heavily armored character protect a wizard by psychical position? Unless your wizard is a Halfling, they get no benefit other than your ability to hit enemies with an AoO, which would only be enhanced by, you guessed it, having martial weapon proficiency.
And almost every Cleric gets HA proficiency, so all of these things that you claim makes the Forge Cleric a support would make nearly EVERY Cleric a support What all of those other clerics don't get is a +1 to AC while in heavy armor, the ability to get an additional +1 AC or +1 weapon, and physical damage resistance. I agree that Forge Clerics have a lot of OOC utility, but that doesn't stop them from being a tank that would really benefit from martial weapon proficiency.
Your showing all lack of tactical thinking right now because it works against you. How does one do it purely through physical position. Their threat range alone can stop some enemies from moving past them. They could be blocking the path down a hallway to things like your wizard so that they can't physically get to them. Their simple physical position can bring other things into play such as the God Damned Staple of Clerics in Spirit Guardians which it's effect is based entirely on where the cleric is standing which can protect the wizard not only by causing damage but also Because it causes a decent sized area of difficult terrain to move through.
And these are all just blatantly simple tactics that can be done without any thought or planning. There are plenty more based on various other factors. And none of these rely on any kind of martial ability or Express need by the cleric themselves to cause damage to get the attention of others. Which is effectively MMO BS anyways. It's not realistic. If somebody really wants to attack the mage. They aren't going to stop from getting to the mage just because the warrior hit them a little harder. There is no damage based threat meter mechanic anywhere in D&D. Many Damage Dealers in fact are fairly squishy, with a couple of exceptions. And fall fairly quickly if somebody just takes out the units supporting them. This archaic passive tanking philosophy of MMO's does not really work in table top. It never has. More damage does not somehow shut off people's brains and make them just attack the tank.
I wasn't using Searing Smite and Heat Metal to say they should be martial, I was pointing those out to say that does not shoehorn them in as a support. And Heat Metal has a range, but suffers no consequences from casting in melee range either.
How exactly does a heavily armored character protect a wizard by psychical position? Unless your wizard is a Halfling, they get no benefit other than your ability to hit enemies with an AoO, which would only be enhanced by, you guessed it, having martial weapon proficiency.
And almost every Cleric gets HA proficiency, so all of these things that you claim makes the Forge Cleric a support would make nearly EVERY Cleric a support What all of those other clerics don't get is a +1 to AC while in heavy armor, the ability to get an additional +1 AC or +1 weapon, and physical damage resistance. I agree that Forge Clerics have a lot of OOC utility, but that doesn't stop them from being a tank that would really benefit from martial weapon proficiency.
Your showing all lack of tactical thinking right now because it works against you. How does one do it purely through physical position. Their threat range alone can stop some enemies from moving past them. They could be blocking the path down a hallway to things like your wizard so that they can't physically get to them. Their simple physical position can bring other things into play such as the God Damned Staple of Clerics in Spirit Guardians which it's effect is based entirely on where the cleric is standing which can protect the wizard not only by causing damage but also Because it causes a decent sized area of difficult terrain to move through.
And these are all just blatantly simple tactics that can be done without any thought or planning. There are plenty more based on various other factors. And none of these rely on any kind of martial ability or Express need by the cleric themselves to cause damage to get the attention of others. Which is effectively MMO BS anyways. It's not realistic. If somebody really wants to attack the mage. They aren't going to stop from getting to the mage just because the warrior hit them a little harder. There is no damage based threat meter mechanic anywhere in D&D. Many Damage Dealers in fact are fairly squishy, with a couple of exceptions. And fall fairly quickly if somebody just takes out the units supporting them. This archaic passive tanking philosophy of MMO's does not really work in table top. It never has. More damage does not somehow shut off people's brains and make them just attack the tank.
None of those rely on heavy armor either. And absolutely none of what you're talking about is exclusive to the Forge Cleric. You're basically just saying that Cleric is only a support class.
And as far as threat level, as I said before, Forge Clerics don't get a buff to their spells, so martial weapons would go a long way in increasing that.
No I'm not saying that Forge Clerics are the only support class. your taking that inference because you don't like what I'm saying.
And while they do not rely on heavy armor. I didn't say they had to. The remark made that physical positioning could not save the wizard. I made some very basic and general tactical examples to the contrary. Now your attacking it because it doesn't specifically make use of Heavy Armor when I never said it did. That's an assumption your forcing into the conversation because you see it as derailing what I'm saying when it actually doesn't.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, I've been considering playing a cleric for the first time and have been looking at the twilight domain in particular since it fits my character idea best.
I was wondering why the subclass, and most other cleric subclasses for that matter, even need the martial weapons proficiency? They don't have any extra attacks, nor do they even have spells that buff their melee weapon damage. Not to mention sacred flame and all the other offensive spells.
Ideally I would like my character to be a knightly character (which is probably the only reason for the martial weapons in the subclass, for that theme, right?), but also I'd like to have the peaceful vibe of night time stars and twilight for the sake of keeping with my backstory. Also would like to summon my guardian angel in combat later too with planar ally, so I'd rather not choose paladin instead.
I guess I'm just frustrated to know that I can use these weapons, but there's little point because the subclass's spells are a billion times more efficient.
Can anyone explain why the subclass bothers to have it without any extra attacks and how, if at all, I can optimise that melee side of things with the twilight domain?
Doesn't have to be melee - even if you spec into Str as your third stat for heavy armor, you can still throw weapons. With 300 foot darkvision, ranged attacks are probably best attacks. You can also focus on Dexterity if you like and wield a heavy crossbow.
If I were making a Strength Twilight Cleric, it would probably look like this:
Half-Elf
WIS 17 CON 16 STR 16 DEX 8 INT 8 CHA 8
Ideal equipment: Plate, shield, back quiver of javelins, hip sack of whips. Make sure skills include Athletics for whip-based Shoves.
Well, you do get divine strike (+d8 radiant damage to melee attacks) at level 8, which goes up to 2d8 at 14. So your weapon attacks are going to be pretty solid. You won't get as many attacks, but they'll hit for decent damage. Yes, spells will be a better choice, usually, but you can run out of spells. And some creatures will have good saves to the point that attacking their AC is the better option.
1) Divine Strike is any weapon, not just melee.
2) Any Cleric with Divine Strike can give up L14 scaling for the 1d8 damage to also apply to cantrips. Twilight has arguably the best Divine Strike, since it deals Psychic, not Radiant, but even so (if you swap, the 1d8 becomes Radiant).
That's a really good point, I agree!
Maybe it was for balancing purposes, as in they couldn't be given weapon proficiencies because they have been given Smith's tools instead? This would be along the same lines as making a custom background, swapping one proficiency for another.
But I've never looked at making or modifying a class, so I'm not really sure
Like people have said before, Divine Strike is usually a potent way to deliver cantrip-level damage without having to rely on saves that may or may not be hard to land at the moment.
Also, yea Forge and Order domain not getting martial proficiency bugs the ever-living hell out of me. I can sort of understand Nature domain not getting it, since they have access to Shillelagh, which means that they can essentially become a pure-wis martial cleric without picking up a warhammer or anything, but I digress.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
I can definitely understand a nature cleric not getting martial weapons, yeah
Generally speaking it's thematically not their style
Of course divine strike is only available to War domain clerics, which I guess makes melee less viable for Twilight domain and such...
Most domains of cleric get divine strike (the exceptions being peace, light, grave and arcana who get potent spellcasting instead). There is a slight difference in that a twilight clerics divine strike gives radiant damage where a war cler's strikes are the same damage as the weapon but in terms of resistances/vulnerabilities they is probably about even unless you are on an evil campaign fighting a lot of celestials.
I think that War Domain might actually have one of the worst divine strikes, actually. Radiant isn't resisted often by non celestials, and its a safe bet for most campaigns that you won't be fighting angels, making radiant a reliable damage type. According to an errata from a while back DS isn't magical damage; This means that unless you have a special weapon that does a unique damage type, you're dealing non-magical piercing, slashing, or blunt damage as a War Domain cleric with divine strike. As the text is written for DS on War Domain, I'd say that if you have a flame tongue or something, it could deal slashing or fire damage, since it only specifies that it does the same damage type as your weapon's attack. But this is getting off topic.
But uh yea, as others have said, a lot of clerics get heavy armor and martial proficiencies as well as divine strike and full spellcasting. Depending on how you prepare your spells and your choice of domain, you could play a cleric like a support or a hardline tank/dps, It's one of the most versatile classes in the game for this reason. Twilight Domain is mostly themed around being a tank, so you can expect to get a bit in the fray, or at least defend the back line. wearing a shield and plate mail will get you up to a decent AC, and its not as if cleric lacks tools for close range. Spirit Guardians and Spirit Shroud, among other things are good spells for close/medium range damage augmentation and battlefield control. As a twilight cleric, you're more or less the vigilant, ever-ready sentinel archetype. Smack some heads and protect your buds. Of course, you could also play it differently. It's your choice. That's the beauty of clerics, it's entirely up to how you want to play them. With the class option to replace divine strike/potent spellcasting with a 1d8 radiant on a spell/melee attack, it's even easier to play a cleric how you want, so depending on your tastes, you might not even want to use heavy armor/martial weapons as a main part of your character's build.
Also this is off topic, but friendly reminder that Twilight Cleric's channel divinity allows you to basically fly at will a few times a day at level 6 when you get Steps of the Night. Twilight Sanctuary specifies that its area is filled with dim light rather than producing/creating dim light, which means the radius is simply just dim light, no matter where you are. Steps of the night lets you fly for 1 minute if you're in dim light. If you're ever in need of flight mid-battle and don't want to rely on a potentially unreliable catalyst, well, there you go.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
I play a tempest cleric and the ONLY reason I can imagine is because someone at wotc was pissed they couldn't use a warhammer on a tempest cleric to be more thor like OR because its usually the weapon associated with storm gods.
With Thunderwave, Destructive Wave, Their reaction ability, Their ability to increase thunder damage which all 3 of those do, as well as the thunder damage their divine strike does. There is plenty of reason for Tempest Clerics to be up in the front lines. Martial Weapons just lends to that even more if that's the way that one wants to play them. It's not just some Thor Complex of some design member on a purely ranged caster.
Yea, tempest cleric is very much a hard frontliner. They're the oppressive, consistent AOE shockwave that physically bats enemies away with waves of lightning/thunder/wind. Not to mention that flavor wise, tempest gods are usually associated with wrath/justice/combat anyway, so it would make sense for them to be proficient in martial skills. As for why its a warhammer, I believe that the blunt weapon stuff is a holdover from older editions where clerics couldn't use weapons that drew blood? That's why the default martial weapon for clerics is a Warhammer.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
They work best as dwarves, when you learn battleaxe and warhammer. So maybeye they wanted to reinforce the theme, that dwarves should be the forge clerics?
The Maker of Weapons... The forge master. Is rarely a master of weapons... Or fighting. They are usually the support characters. They pour their souls into the weapons, not using them. Entire philosophies are built around this idea and the Forge Cleric embodies this way of thinking. Most of their Spell list isn't combat spells. It's a spell list chock full of Support backed up with a couple of the better item creation spells out of the small handful that exist. Even most of their class buff's revolve around creating things and buffing/supporting. Just because they can buff weapons does not mean that it has to be their weapon. That is narrow selfish thinking to the usage of the list. Those buffs can often be better put to use in the hands of others in the party.
So why should the Forge Cleric be proficient in Martial weapons? That's like saying the man that makes the perfect Katana can only be a Sword Master even though that's usually far from the truth.
heat Metal is a ranged spell. it has no basis in the fact that they should be martial over a caster. More than just Forge Clerics use this spell without getting into melee combat. So your really basing everything in your argument off of Searing Smite. A single spell. In a list of over 10.
The other first level spell that they always get is Identify.
The Forge Cleric isn't a tank. What they are is heavily armored which is not necessarily the same thing. Heavily Armored can be just as useful for protecting that wizard through physical position. It doesn't have to be through damage. Combined with regular cleric spells like spirit guardians. They can be dangerous guardians without ever swinging a weapon. But heavily armored has a completely different aspect that your completely ignoring. The Heavily Armored target is the one that can move around the battlefield more freely. So they can choose when and where to lend their support or get into dangerous situations to apply bigger touch heals if they wish. They don't just let the enemy dictate what they can do and where they can go. This fact about movement can apply to Tanks as well. They are designed to be able to move around through threats and risk less harm from drawing attacks from others. Your Main Healer and Support character benefits from this kind of thing as well.
I don't know if this was up for debate; Forge Cleric is definitely more of a support/utility cleric than a tank. You can totally build it like a tank, it has nice tools for it, but I think Forge is more for people who want to play a cleric but have some unique things to use creatively throughout their campaign. That being said, Forge has the potential to be one of the better cleric build tanks; They can easily make their own gear so long as they have the available gold or materials and they can boost their own AC with blessing of the forge or whatever.
Also, not to nitpick but they do get access to magic and elemental weapon, both of which require, well, weapons. You can totally cast it on a teammate if you want, but realistically speaking most people are going to use it on themselves. Protection from energy is also pretty defense-oriented and worth using from time to time. I still think their spell list leans more towards utility than tanking, but it's not a black and white separation of the two, more of versatile mix of weapon bolstering, viable spells suitable for both offense and defense, and some wacky shit to top it all off.
This is an edit, wow I forgot soul of the forge adds a +1 to your AC while wearing heavy armor. If you wanted to be greedy and use your blessing on yourself, you could totally have 20 AC without getting a single magic item or investing in gear beyond starter equipment. And the capstone gives you rage-like resistances while you're wearing heavy armor. Ok yea, you can definitely consider this one of the top 3 choices for tanking clerics.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Realistically speaking. They are usually going to use it on themselves because they are either taught by the older generation of players to think about themselves and not their teams. Or they are following guides that are written from a rather selfish perspective more often than not. There are plenty of newer players that don't even consider casting these spells on others even because they could because the places they learn and their experiences with gaming don't as often lead to that. And that is primariy the fault of certain older editions of the game that are still leaving their nasty stained fingerprints all over mentalities about the game everywhere even after 7 years of 5e being out with a different focus from said certain older editions.
Also... a 20AC isn't all that uncommon even without magical items. That's one of the mistakes that many players make as they go overboard on talking about how you need magical items or want to downplay other classes about their Own AC's.
It's not uncommon, but 20 AC without changing out of chainmail and the shield you got at level 1? That's pretty nice in my opinion. and if you just so happen to upgrade to plate, well hey, that +2 AC follows you.
Also feels like this thread has been highjacked by Forge Cleric discussion.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Your showing all lack of tactical thinking right now because it works against you. How does one do it purely through physical position. Their threat range alone can stop some enemies from moving past them. They could be blocking the path down a hallway to things like your wizard so that they can't physically get to them. Their simple physical position can bring other things into play such as the God Damned Staple of Clerics in Spirit Guardians which it's effect is based entirely on where the cleric is standing which can protect the wizard not only by causing damage but also Because it causes a decent sized area of difficult terrain to move through.
And these are all just blatantly simple tactics that can be done without any thought or planning. There are plenty more based on various other factors. And none of these rely on any kind of martial ability or Express need by the cleric themselves to cause damage to get the attention of others. Which is effectively MMO BS anyways. It's not realistic. If somebody really wants to attack the mage. They aren't going to stop from getting to the mage just because the warrior hit them a little harder. There is no damage based threat meter mechanic anywhere in D&D. Many Damage Dealers in fact are fairly squishy, with a couple of exceptions. And fall fairly quickly if somebody just takes out the units supporting them. This archaic passive tanking philosophy of MMO's does not really work in table top. It never has. More damage does not somehow shut off people's brains and make them just attack the tank.
No I'm not saying that Forge Clerics are the only support class. your taking that inference because you don't like what I'm saying.
And while they do not rely on heavy armor. I didn't say they had to. The remark made that physical positioning could not save the wizard. I made some very basic and general tactical examples to the contrary. Now your attacking it because it doesn't specifically make use of Heavy Armor when I never said it did. That's an assumption your forcing into the conversation because you see it as derailing what I'm saying when it actually doesn't.