So I am not much of a min maxer but I do wish to be useful to my party. The subclass of cleric I desire has heavy armor proficiency. But to use good heavy armor I need a 15 in str. We are using point by and I want 17 is wis 16 in con then if i take a 15 in str that is a -1 to all other stats. but my ac will be 20 The alternative is a 17 wis 16 con 14 dex and a +1 to something else likely charisma. This will pad my dex saves and allow me to have extra of something else. The down side is my ac would be 19. This seems bearable. Is there any advantage to bothering with heavy armor?
It's tough to say. Generally, it's better to not be hit than it is to have the extra hp and con save from a higher con. Like you could easily drop con to 14 is you want more points to play with. or even drop con to 13 and plan to take Resilient: Con at some point, or just asi to round up your wis and con. Or, if you're wearing heavy armor, you can easily drop dex to a 12 or even a 10, giving you more points to play with. (Or there's the more min-max way or just being a dwarf so you can wear heavy armor without the str.) That said, you're right that a 19 AC is perfectly serviceable.
But its also going to matter a lot about party composition. Are there other melee types, or are you going to be a front-liner? Do you plan to be mixing it up with spirit guardians going? Because then the AC can make more sense. But if you'll be more in the back, throwing out bless and cure wounds and Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead, then the heavy armor won't be as necessary.
Also, does your table enforce component rules? If so, then warcaster can be a good feat choice, but that isn't a half feat, so if you need that, you might factor it in to the decision.
The high con is to make sure my concentration stays high. Going order cleric and plan on taking resilient or war caster to buff those save further. I get hold person and dominate monster and all that good stuff that i want to make sure stays up so dropping con seems risky. But did not know dwarves can use heavy armor without str that is a good idea since in general dwarves are pretty useful.
If you plan on taking resilient con then it is important you leave your constitution odd. That gives you a point buy split of 15, 8, 14, 8, 15, 8 with one of those 8's able to be a 10. If you drop the con down to 13 then your point buy can be 15, 8, 13, 8, 15, 8 with 4 points to turn an 8 into a 12. The tricky part here is when to take resilient vs. warcaster and its really nice to have both.
Personally, I like heavy armor since it allows me to dump dexterity and use great weapons, but I like the smushing things with heavy hammers.
Any creature able to fit into an armor set is capable of donning it with sufficient time. Proficiency allows spellcasting while donning it and more. There's speed penalty for wearing some heavy armor while having low Strength ability score and, as already mentioned, Dwarves, already having their own speed penalty (of 30-5=25), have no further speed penalty from wearing heavy armor while having low Strength ability score. The 19+1 AC arguably is worth the drop on other stats since the opposing creatures will wanna end your character's concentration through attack rolls.
You could be a dwarf: "Speed. Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor." Or get Mithral plate: "If the armor normally imposes disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks or has a Strength requirement, the mithral version of the armor doesn't." Or take Air Genasi, Dhampir, Leonin, Satr or Wood Elf which have a 35 speed minus 10 for heavy armor without enough strength=25. Centaur is 5 faster than that and Tabaxi have an ability that help with speed.
A race such a wood elf with a base speed of 35 has the same speed as a dwarf if wearing heavy armor but does not meet the strength requirement. While the penalties for wearing heavy armor while not proficient make it not viable, it is viable to play without meeting the strength requirement.
Having said that it depends on your clerics play style, If your cleric is not casting a levelled spell will they be using a weapon or casting a cantrip? If using a weapon then putting points into strength is much more important. If they plan on being mostly melee the AC is more important. If they are casting cantrips from range I would dump str and go medium armor, Dex is great not just as an important save but also for initiative.
If the campaign uses variant encumbrance you want to be strength based, in this case wearing scale mail without investing in str will result in at best the same 10ft movement penalty and you might even be heavily encumbered.
I mean, if you're only looking to focus ability points, heavy armor is still your best bet; it only takes 13 STR to have 16 AC with no movement penalties, whereas it'd take 14 DEX with medium armor for the same result. Using a shield then puts you at 18, which is a respectable AC, particularly if you're planning to be more of mid to back row caster as opposed to melee.
I mean, if you're only looking to focus ability points, heavy armor is still your best bet; it only takes 13 STR to have 16 AC with no movement penalties, whereas it'd take 14 DEX with medium armor for the same result. Using a shield then puts you at 18, which is a respectable AC, particularly if you're planning to be more of mid to back row caster as opposed to melee.
While that is true when you start when you get a bit of gold if you are mediom armor based you can get your AC up to 17 (without a shield) by purchasing half plate with no need to increase dex, if you are going with heavy armor you have to either get your strength up to 15 so you can use splint or plate without movement penalties, or stick with the chain mail or accept the movement penalty, or choose to be a dwarf.
I mean, if you're only looking to focus ability points, heavy armor is still your best bet; it only takes 13 STR to have 16 AC with no movement penalties, whereas it'd take 14 DEX with medium armor for the same result. Using a shield then puts you at 18, which is a respectable AC, particularly if you're planning to be more of mid to back row caster as opposed to melee.
While that is true when you start when you get a bit of gold if you are mediom armor based you can get your AC up to 17 (without a shield) by purchasing half plate with no need to increase dex, if you are going with heavy armor you have to either get your strength up to 15 so you can use splint or plate without movement penalties, or stick with the chain mail or accept the movement penalty, or choose to be a dwarf.
That’s why I said “if you’re only looking to focus ability points”. Yes, if you’re willing to put an extra point into DEX you can eventually swing a better AC, but if you’ve already got two stats besides DEX or STR you’ve got earmarked for ASI, then 13 STR is your best investment if you have heavy armor prof.
Edit: my bad, had a brain fart on half plate. Hypothetically it could be a better option, but that depends on how quickly you get the gold or if your DM will hand over a set as loot. For an early build, though, I stand by what I said; half plate is intended not to come into play before tier 2, and it’s a notable gold investment.
That’s why I said “if you’re only looking to focus ability points”. Yes, if you’re willing to put an extra point into DEX you can eventually swing a better AC, but if you’ve already got two stats besides DEX or STR you’ve got earmarked for ASI, then 13 STR is your best investment if you have heavy armor prof.
Edit: my bad, had a brain fart on half plate. Hypothetically it could be a better option, but that depends on how quickly you get the gold or if your DM will hand over a set as loot. For an early build, though, I stand by what I said; half plate is intended not to come into play before tier 2, and it’s a notable gold investment.
A cleric building for effectiveness never put significant focus on both Dex and Str. They either have a focus on Strength and wear heavy armour, or they have a focus on Dex, wear medium and carry a finesse weapon so they can dump strength. Chain mail is great at low levels as you point out the str requirement is only 13. Half plate and splint improve the AC by 1 for medium and heavy respectively but while splint is cheaper the strength requirement is increased. At higher levels you can get a higher AC with heavy armor by purchasing plate, though you still need strength 15 the only way you can match that with medium is by getting 16 dex and medium armour master and that is very rarely worth it.
Just looking at weapon attacks and AC a heavy armor / strength build is better than medium, but dex also improves your initiative, stealth, accrobatics and slight of hand while strength improves your athletics and carrying capacity. Unless improveing carrying capacity makes a big difference (eg if playing varient encumberance). With dex saves also being far more common than strength saves I think overall a wis/dex cleric is at least comparable in power to a wis/str based cleric
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but the STR requirement for heavy armor is not strictly necessary. Yes, you'll take a penalty to speed (-10 feet), but it isn't the end of the world. And if that's too much of a problem, you can always just go with the classics and roll a dwarf cleric, which will keep your speed at 25 regardless of your STR score.
If your stats are decent, it won't even be a problem anyway, because you should be able to meet the 15 STR requirement for full plate by the time you can afford it. I would recommend setting STR as your 3rd (or even 2nd for specific domains) highest stat besides WIS and CON respectively.
I've found that cleric domains are pretty well-thought out mechanically, meaning that if your domain grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it's probably a good idea to build a high-STR, front-liner build, whereas if you don't gain armor or weapon proficiencies, the designers are essentially telling you that you should prioritize DEX and fill out medium armor.
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So I am not much of a min maxer but I do wish to be useful to my party. The subclass of cleric I desire has heavy armor proficiency. But to use good heavy armor I need a 15 in str. We are using point by and I want 17 is wis 16 in con then if i take a 15 in str that is a -1 to all other stats. but my ac will be 20
The alternative is a 17 wis 16 con 14 dex and a +1 to something else likely charisma. This will pad my dex saves and allow me to have extra of something else. The down side is my ac would be 19. This seems bearable. Is there any advantage to bothering with heavy armor?
It's tough to say. Generally, it's better to not be hit than it is to have the extra hp and con save from a higher con. Like you could easily drop con to 14 is you want more points to play with. or even drop con to 13 and plan to take Resilient: Con at some point, or just asi to round up your wis and con. Or, if you're wearing heavy armor, you can easily drop dex to a 12 or even a 10, giving you more points to play with. (Or there's the more min-max way or just being a dwarf so you can wear heavy armor without the str.) That said, you're right that a 19 AC is perfectly serviceable.
But its also going to matter a lot about party composition. Are there other melee types, or are you going to be a front-liner? Do you plan to be mixing it up with spirit guardians going? Because then the AC can make more sense. But if you'll be more in the back, throwing out bless and cure wounds and Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead, then the heavy armor won't be as necessary.
Also, does your table enforce component rules? If so, then warcaster can be a good feat choice, but that isn't a half feat, so if you need that, you might factor it in to the decision.
The high con is to make sure my concentration stays high. Going order cleric and plan on taking resilient or war caster to buff those save further. I get hold person and dominate monster and all that good stuff that i want to make sure stays up so dropping con seems risky. But did not know dwarves can use heavy armor without str that is a good idea since in general dwarves are pretty useful.
If you plan on taking resilient con then it is important you leave your constitution odd. That gives you a point buy split of 15, 8, 14, 8, 15, 8 with one of those 8's able to be a 10. If you drop the con down to 13 then your point buy can be 15, 8, 13, 8, 15, 8 with 4 points to turn an 8 into a 12. The tricky part here is when to take resilient vs. warcaster and its really nice to have both.
Personally, I like heavy armor since it allows me to dump dexterity and use great weapons, but I like the smushing things with heavy hammers.
Here is what I came up with: (Make sure your race is Goliath or half-orc)
Strength: 13 (Racial bonus + 2) = 15
Dexterity: 11 (If you want heavy armour, you won’t be needing this much. You could probably afford going lower)
Constitution: 13 (Racial bonus + 1) = 14
Intelligence: 13
Wisdom: 15 (MAX THIS OUT WITH ASI)
Charisma: 8 (Dump Stat)
DM: “Who’s your patron?”
Warlock: “Ummm”
DM: “Hurry Up”
Warlock: “yOu”
*All other players look at each other with utter fear*
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Check out my homebrew: My Homebrew
Any creature able to fit into an armor set is capable of donning it with sufficient time. Proficiency allows spellcasting while donning it and more. There's speed penalty for wearing some heavy armor while having low Strength ability score and, as already mentioned, Dwarves, already having their own speed penalty (of 30-5=25), have no further speed penalty from wearing heavy armor while having low Strength ability score. The 19+1 AC arguably is worth the drop on other stats since the opposing creatures will wanna end your character's concentration through attack rolls.
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You could be a dwarf: "Speed. Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor." Or get Mithral plate: "If the armor normally imposes disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks or has a Strength requirement, the mithral version of the armor doesn't." Or take Air Genasi, Dhampir, Leonin, Satr or Wood Elf which have a 35 speed minus 10 for heavy armor without enough strength=25. Centaur is 5 faster than that and Tabaxi have an ability that help with speed.
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A race such a wood elf with a base speed of 35 has the same speed as a dwarf if wearing heavy armor but does not meet the strength requirement. While the penalties for wearing heavy armor while not proficient make it not viable, it is viable to play without meeting the strength requirement.
Having said that it depends on your clerics play style, If your cleric is not casting a levelled spell will they be using a weapon or casting a cantrip? If using a weapon then putting points into strength is much more important. If they plan on being mostly melee the AC is more important. If they are casting cantrips from range I would dump str and go medium armor, Dex is great not just as an important save but also for initiative.
If the campaign uses variant encumbrance you want to be strength based, in this case wearing scale mail without investing in str will result in at best the same 10ft movement penalty and you might even be heavily encumbered.
I mean, if you're only looking to focus ability points, heavy armor is still your best bet; it only takes 13 STR to have 16 AC with no movement penalties, whereas it'd take 14 DEX with medium armor for the same result. Using a shield then puts you at 18, which is a respectable AC, particularly if you're planning to be more of mid to back row caster as opposed to melee.
While that is true when you start when you get a bit of gold if you are mediom armor based you can get your AC up to 17 (without a shield) by purchasing half plate with no need to increase dex, if you are going with heavy armor you have to either get your strength up to 15 so you can use splint or plate without movement penalties, or stick with the chain mail or accept the movement penalty, or choose to be a dwarf.
That’s why I said “if you’re only looking to focus ability points”. Yes, if you’re willing to put an extra point into DEX you can eventually swing a better AC, but if you’ve already got two stats besides DEX or STR you’ve got earmarked for ASI, then 13 STR is your best investment if you have heavy armor prof.
Edit: my bad, had a brain fart on half plate. Hypothetically it could be a better option, but that depends on how quickly you get the gold or if your DM will hand over a set as loot. For an early build, though, I stand by what I said; half plate is intended not to come into play before tier 2, and it’s a notable gold investment.
A cleric building for effectiveness never put significant focus on both Dex and Str. They either have a focus on Strength and wear heavy armour, or they have a focus on Dex, wear medium and carry a finesse weapon so they can dump strength. Chain mail is great at low levels as you point out the str requirement is only 13. Half plate and splint improve the AC by 1 for medium and heavy respectively but while splint is cheaper the strength requirement is increased. At higher levels you can get a higher AC with heavy armor by purchasing plate, though you still need strength 15 the only way you can match that with medium is by getting 16 dex and medium armour master and that is very rarely worth it.
Just looking at weapon attacks and AC a heavy armor / strength build is better than medium, but dex also improves your initiative, stealth, accrobatics and slight of hand while strength improves your athletics and carrying capacity. Unless improveing carrying capacity makes a big difference (eg if playing varient encumberance). With dex saves also being far more common than strength saves I think overall a wis/dex cleric is at least comparable in power to a wis/str based cleric
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but the STR requirement for heavy armor is not strictly necessary. Yes, you'll take a penalty to speed (-10 feet), but it isn't the end of the world. And if that's too much of a problem, you can always just go with the classics and roll a dwarf cleric, which will keep your speed at 25 regardless of your STR score.
If your stats are decent, it won't even be a problem anyway, because you should be able to meet the 15 STR requirement for full plate by the time you can afford it. I would recommend setting STR as your 3rd (or even 2nd for specific domains) highest stat besides WIS and CON respectively.
I've found that cleric domains are pretty well-thought out mechanically, meaning that if your domain grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it's probably a good idea to build a high-STR, front-liner build, whereas if you don't gain armor or weapon proficiencies, the designers are essentially telling you that you should prioritize DEX and fill out medium armor.
In my experience...