But this is where it gets interesting. Silvering 20 pieces of ammunition requires 100 gp, but the feature can only produce 10 pieces of ammunition at a time. It is possible to produce 10 silvered ammunition with this feature.
Oooooh. Thats actually really interesting
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The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
If you are using a weapon you already own and are just using 100 gp worth of metal to silver coat the weapon you already own (which would cost 100 gp).......The success or failure of Channeling Divinity is in the hands of the God (also known as the Game Master)
Seriously though, check with your DM. You have the weapon, you have the metal of value needed. you could travel to a town, i am assuming, and get it done anyway. Forge domain is awesome this way and as long as its not game breaking, you have to ask, "does not seem unreasonable."
Its not like you are arguing Heavy Armor plate is 1500 gp and is technically more than 15 pieces so you should be able to make a set over the course of a weak and then put it all together.....thats CRAZY TALK
It's intrinsically DM fiat to make anything that has no cost in the PHB, including things like a helmet or a single armored boot.
Technically, that's true of everything. The DM, "interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them" (DMG 4). I just happen to also think it's a disingenuous answer, under the circumstances (no offense). What does the wording of the feature (EXE 19; emphasis mine) say?
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create simple items.
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
The feature doesn't make an exception for a piece of armor, and "another metal object" is clearly intended to be something already found in the PHB.
So it can make any "metal" armor a character can start with; [Tooltip Not Found], chain mail, even an Artificer's studded leather. It can make a lantern or magnifying glass. It can make a barrel with metal bands or a chest for quick storage. And it can make any mundane weapon, if you can shoehorn metal into its construction.
But it cannot make a suit of expensive armor by piecemeal.
P.S.
But this is where it gets interesting. Silvering 20 pieces of ammunition requires 100 gp, but the feature can only produce 10 pieces of ammunition at a time. It is possible to produce 10 silvered ammunition with this feature.
I would not let someone make something that is clearly mostly NOT metal with this (like Studded Leather armor).
However, I HAVE allowed players to make entire suits of armor with it one piece at a time. Why not? A suit of new Plate armor costs 1500 gp. You can make an item up to 100 gp in value. So what's wrong with allowing someone to spend 15 days and 1500 gp in steel or whatever to make a suit of armor? You could argue that they're actually making it harder on themself by not simply buying it but to me, being able to MAKE my own armor would be a great RP hook. As a DM I would allow a roll a day against their tool use to make slight improvements to the armor like a secret compartment in the chest piece (+5 to conceal something there), hardened knuckles (2 pts of unarmed damage instead of 1) and stuff like that.
IMHO as long as it doesn't break the game and the player has a good time with it, let them do it.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
If you are using a weapon you already own and are just using 100 gp worth of metal to silver coat the weapon you already own (which would cost 100 gp).......The success or failure of Channeling Divinity is in the hands of the God (also known as the Game Master)
Seriously though, check with your DM. You have the weapon, you have the metal of value needed. you could travel to a town, i am assuming, and get it done anyway. Forge domain is awesome this way and as long as its not game breaking, you have to ask, "does not seem unreasonable."
Its not like you are arguing Heavy Armor plate is 1500 gp and is technically more than 15 pieces so you should be able to make a set over the course of a weak and then put it all together.....thats CRAZY TALK
It's intrinsically DM fiat to make anything that has no cost in the PHB, including things like a helmet or a single armored boot.
Technically, that's true of everything. The DM, "interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them" (DMG 4). I just happen to also think it's a disingenuous answer, under the circumstances (no offense). What does the wording of the feature (EXE 19; emphasis mine) say?
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create simple items.
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
The feature doesn't make an exception for a piece of armor, and "another metal object" is clearly intended to be something already found in the PHB.
So it can make any "metal" armor a character can start with; [Tooltip Not Found], chain mail, even an Artificer's studded leather. It can make a lantern or magnifying glass. It can make a barrel with metal bands or a chest for quick storage. And it can make any mundane weapon, if you can shoehorn metal into its construction.
But it cannot make a suit of expensive armor by piecemeal.
P.S.
But this is where it gets interesting. Silvering 20 pieces of ammunition requires 100 gp, but the feature can only produce 10 pieces of ammunition at a time. It is possible to produce 10 silvered ammunition with this feature.
I would not let someone make something that is clearly mostly NOT metal with this (like Studded Leather armor).
However, I HAVE allowed players to make entire suits of armor with it one piece at a time. Why not? A suit of new Plate armor costs 1500 gp. You can make an item up to 100 gp in value. So what's wrong with allowing someone to spend 15 days and 1500 gp in steel or whatever to make a suit of armor? You could argue that they're actually making it harder on themself by not simply buying it but to me, being able to MAKE my own armor would be a great RP hook. As a DM I would allow a roll a day against their tool use to make slight improvements to the armor like a secret compartment in the chest piece (+5 to conceal something there), hardened knuckles (2 pts of unarmed damage instead of 1) and stuff like that.
IMHO as long as it doesn't break the game and the player has a good time with it, let them do it.
I agree, but to be fair you can use your Channel Divinity once per short rest (twice per short rest at 6th and three times per short rest at 17th), so depending on the number of encounters you run through between each rest you might be able to amass enough material and coin to make multiple pieces every day. I would guesstimate that it might take closer to a week of adventuring to finish the armor. Still not ridiculous by any means
Random thought to add to this discussion: Per the lore, are the scales of Metallic dragons actually composed of metal? If so, I wonder if you killed an Adult Metallic Dragon how many iterations of Artisan's Blessing the cleric could nurse the remains for building random stuff.
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The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
If you are using a weapon you already own and are just using 100 gp worth of metal to silver coat the weapon you already own (which would cost 100 gp).......The success or failure of Channeling Divinity is in the hands of the God (also known as the Game Master)
Seriously though, check with your DM. You have the weapon, you have the metal of value needed. you could travel to a town, i am assuming, and get it done anyway. Forge domain is awesome this way and as long as its not game breaking, you have to ask, "does not seem unreasonable."
Its not like you are arguing Heavy Armor plate is 1500 gp and is technically more than 15 pieces so you should be able to make a set over the course of a weak and then put it all together.....thats CRAZY TALK
It's intrinsically DM fiat to make anything that has no cost in the PHB, including things like a helmet or a single armored boot.
Technically, that's true of everything. The DM, "interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them" (DMG 4). I just happen to also think it's a disingenuous answer, under the circumstances (no offense). What does the wording of the feature (EXE 19; emphasis mine) say?
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create simple items.
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
The feature doesn't make an exception for a piece of armor, and "another metal object" is clearly intended to be something already found in the PHB.
So it can make any "metal" armor a character can start with; [Tooltip Not Found], chain mail, even an Artificer's studded leather. It can make a lantern or magnifying glass. It can make a barrel with metal bands or a chest for quick storage. And it can make any mundane weapon, if you can shoehorn metal into its construction.
But it cannot make a suit of expensive armor by piecemeal.
P.S.
But this is where it gets interesting. Silvering 20 pieces of ammunition requires 100 gp, but the feature can only produce 10 pieces of ammunition at a time. It is possible to produce 10 silvered ammunition with this feature.
I would not let someone make something that is clearly mostly NOT metal with this (like Studded Leather armor).
However, I HAVE allowed players to make entire suits of armor with it one piece at a time. Why not? A suit of new Plate armor costs 1500 gp. You can make an item up to 100 gp in value. So what's wrong with allowing someone to spend 15 days and 1500 gp in steel or whatever to make a suit of armor? You could argue that they're actually making it harder on themself by not simply buying it but to me, being able to MAKE my own armor would be a great RP hook. As a DM I would allow a roll a day against their tool use to make slight improvements to the armor like a secret compartment in the chest piece (+5 to conceal something there), hardened knuckles (2 pts of unarmed damage instead of 1) and stuff like that.
IMHO as long as it doesn't break the game and the player has a good time with it, let them do it.
I agree, but to be fair you can use your Channel Divinity once per short rest (twice per short rest at 6th and three times per short rest at 17th), so depending on the number of encounters you run through between each rest you might be able to amass enough material and coin to make multiple pieces every day. I would guesstimate that it might take closer to a week of adventuring to finish the armor. Still not ridiculous by any means
Random thought to add to this discussion: Per the lore, are the scales of Metallic dragons actually composed of metal? If so, I wonder if you killed an Adult Metallic Dragon how many iterations of Artisan's Blessing the cleric could nurse the remains for building random stuff.
To your first point: You're right. My party usually tries for a long rest and a short rest per day but that's by our choice and not a rules thing.
To your second point. If your party actually killed a metallic dragon I would think that the carcass should be part of the reward IF they agree to hang around for processing. Ask anyone who has dressed out a large animal and they'll tell you that it can take some time.
If I were the DM I would ask if the party were trying for specific components (like meat because they're hungry or organs to make Alchemical stuff). If they want to split the work, I'd ask for a Survival roll with a bonus of half of whatever the highest skill was because they in essence have a teacher helping out. For most vertebrates, the skeleton is about 15% of their weight. I'd be willing to say that 5% of the weight of an armored creature is the outer hide. So a cow-sized dragon that weighed 2000 lbs you could get 100 lbs of scales AT THE MAXIMUM. Remember that many of the scales might be so small as to be worthless for some uses. I could easily see a party that camped for the remainder of an adventuring day and that night getting 50% or 50 lbs of scales.
What you can sell them for or make out of them are topics for another thread I think.
I would not let someone make something that is clearly mostly NOT metal with this (like Studded Leather armor).
However, I HAVE allowed players to make entire suits of armor with it one piece at a time. Why not? A suit of new Plate armor costs 1500 gp. You can make an item up to 100 gp in value. So what's wrong with allowing someone to spend 15 days and 1500 gp in steel or whatever to make a suit of armor? You could argue that they're actually making it harder on themself by not simply buying it but to me, being able to MAKE my own armor would be a great RP hook. As a DM I would allow a roll a day against their tool use to make slight improvements to the armor like a secret compartment in the chest piece (+5 to conceal something there), hardened knuckles (2 pts of unarmed damage instead of 1) and stuff like that.
IMHO as long as it doesn't break the game and the player has a good time with it, let them do it.
That is your prerogative, as DM, but RAW you can make anything so long as it incorporates at least some metal. A fire-hardened spear that has no metal head would be out of the question, but one with a metal head is allowed. That could wind up being 90% wood, and it's intended to be permissible. Piecemeal armor is not, and if you took that to an AL game they'd tell you no because you can only make completed suits.
This is where fabricate comes into play. It costs a spell slot and 10 minutes, instead of no spell slot and an hour, but it has no cost restriction. If you have access to the raw material (750 gp worth), you can craft plate for yourself, as well as for others, as early as 7th level. It doesn't even have to be made of iron or steel. There are stone breastplates in Storm King's Thunder. All you need is the right tool proficiency.
One of the last thing any of us should want to appear being as is capricious; potentially undermining the trust our players place in us to run the game fairly.
Technically, that's true of everything. The DM, "interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them" (DMG 4). I just happen to also think it's a disingenuous answer, under the circumstances (no offense). What does the wording of the feature (EXE 19; emphasis mine) say?
Offense taken. How is it disingenuous to emphasize that the DM is by definition the source of the cost of everything with no listed cost in a rulebook?
The feature doesn't make an exception for a piece of armor, and "another metal object" is clearly intended to be something already found in the PHB.
Many metal objects are not in the PHB, such as a thumbtack made entirely of zinc. It's very clearly intended that a Forge Cleric isn't limited to what's in the PHB, since the rules don't say that anywhere. That means the DM has to adjudicate. How much is a zinc thumbtack worth?
Technically, that's true of everything. The DM, "interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them" (DMG 4). I just happen to also think it's a disingenuous answer, under the circumstances (no offense). What does the wording of the feature (EXE 19; emphasis mine) say?
Offense taken. How is it disingenuous to emphasize that the DM is by definition the source of the cost of everything with no listed cost in a rulebook?
Sorry for that. The issue is the feature isn't designed with breaking armor down into multiple components. And the second you do, you now have to devise prices for every individual component. It's not 15 pieces that are all 100 gp in value. Pauldrons are not going to be worth the same as sabatons or vambraces. And the second you get to plackart you've already gone over what you can reasonably create. You could potentially build out from one, if you already have one, but that's still 1,100 worth of stuff you're converting across 11 short rests. That's, conservatively, 4 days worth of downtime.
Or they could just buy/find 750 gp worth of raw material and cast fabricate. That's why the Forge Domain explicitly gains both this spell and proficiency with smith's tools. The designers intended for players to use this spell to make expensive stuff that Artisan's Blessing cannot; like a breastplate, splint, half plate, and plate.
This is bending over backwards to contort a feature into doing something it was never intended to do. But, hey, what do I know? You're just advocating for the more expensive and time-consuming option.
The feature doesn't make an exception for a piece of armor, and "another metal object" is clearly intended to be something already found in the PHB.
Many metal objects are not in the PHB, such as a thumbtack made entirely of zinc. It's very clearly intended that a Forge Cleric isn't limited to what's in the PHB, since the rules don't say that anywhere. That means the DM has to adjudicate. How much is a zinc thumbtack worth?
I don't know how much one is worth. Nor will I care unless a player asks me if they can make one. Or I ask a DM if I'm playing such a character. I imagine it'll depend, at least in part, on what the cleric on them. About the only thing I can say with certainty is if they don't carry copper coins it'll probably be more expensive than it needs to be.
Why couldn't a Forge Cleric use this power to create the individual parts of a suit of plate? If they have smith's tools (and they do) then it seems to me that they can save themselves some actual coin.
Why couldn't a Forge Cleric use this power to create the individual parts of a suit of plate? If they have smith's tools (and they do) then it seems to me that they can save themselves some actual coin.
Even if they were to build it piece by piece, there isnt a listed price for individual pieces of the armor. Presumably, the sum total of all the parts would still cost the same amount as a the full suit, just they would have to spend days building it.
So they could save coin by using other metal and stuff, but at the end of the day it will effectively cost the same amount
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Why couldn't a Forge Cleric use this power to create the individual parts of a suit of plate? If they have smith's tools (and they do) then it seems to me that they can save themselves some actual coin.
In theory, they could accomplish quite a bit. But the reality is the rules just don't support it. Even if the DM came up with a price for each individual component, and there are dozens of pieces of armor for plate, they'd hit a snag as soon as they reached the breastplate. It costs four times what Artisan's Blessing can create. And I say dozens because a lot of components come in pairs. It's a lot of crafting to do. Just take a look.
think of it as level 1 of making stuff which is why there is a list. Hence the automatic domain spell fabricate which unleashes your manufacturing potential but needs more experience
I am not sure if it was stated before but a great use of this is say... take a bunch of armor/weapons from goblins and turn them into statues. The price of art is listed in the manual but, the worth of Art is subjective. Some will pay more for the same thing.
Artisan's Blessing vs Fabricate - I see this more as a # of attempts (time) situation (DM ruling dependent obviously).
If Artisan's Blessing is used for Full-Plate, and we assume 15 pieces - it would require a minimum of 15 uses of the character's Channel Divinity - reset on Short Rest / Long Rest. The fastest a character in town and focusing on nothing but making the suit of armor would be along the lines of: Channel Divinity (1 hour) / Short Rest (1 hour) - repeat 8 times and then a Long-Rest, resulting in 2 days of focused crafting - it still requires 100 gold per piece in materials, and a total of 1500 gold (no saving for the crafter). If the character is in town they can likely find a craftsman/armorer and just buy the armor outright. The value of Artisan's Blessing is character development / role-playing while adventuring and making individual pieces over longer periods of time (at least in my mind).
Helm / Sallet (head)
Bevor (face shield/visor)
Gorget (neck)
Pauldrons (shoulders)
Cuirass (chest/back)
Rerebrace (upper arms)
Couter (articulated elbows)
Vambraces (forearms)
Gauntlets (hands)
Placard (abdomen)
Faulds (articulated waist)
Cuissess (thighs)
Poleyn (articulated knees)
Greaves (lower leg/shin)
Sabatons (feet)
Using Fabricate it's a 10 min spell and instant full suit of Plate - from potentially raw / unprocessed materials (potentially saving gold).
Regarding the breastplate cost - the DM could allow the character to make 14 pieces but then require that the large breastplate have a forge, anvil, etc., to craft - which would be one session in a town, castle, forge, etc.
You are inventing a system of armor pieces which does not exist. Armor in game can not be broken down into individual components — certainly not as a way to make an end run around the rules. You either have a suit of plate mail, or you do not, you do not have part of a suit of it. You can not use artisans blessing to piecemeal a suit of armor, at least not by RAW.
You are inventing a system of armor pieces which does not exist. Armor in game can not be broken down into individual components — certainly not as a way to make an end run around the rules. You either have a suit of plate mail, or you do not, you do not have part of a suit of it. You can not use artisans blessing to piecemeal a suit of armor, at least not by RAW.
I really don't understand your perspective, and it's okay to disagree. DMs absolutely have the leeway to make adjustments like this, and just because the rules don't detail a breakdown of individual armor pieces (which I believe is to streamline the system, not prevent the role-playing), doesn't take away from the fact that players and DMs adjudicate rules for creative uses ALL THE TIME.
This breaks down into scenario #1 - allowing a player to use Channel Divinity (a blessing from his/her god) to build a suit of armor over time. It would take multiple sessions, and would result in no savings in the cost of gold (again, the player with 1500 gp could go to town and BUY the armor). This is a neat opportunity for a character to role-play being a smith of the gods.
Scenario #2 as you suggested is using Fabricate. 10 minutes, presto suit of armor from a pile of raw resources. Would need 65 lbs of metal - walk into a mine and walk out wearing Plate. Potentially no gold cost at all and achieved in 10 minutes. Difference? Channel Divinity versus 4th level spell.
Scenario #3 - just saying "No" and losing out on the opportunity to foster the excitement of the player impacting his/her experience.
I don't think I'd enjoy playing in a group with you as DM. You come across as not flexible or creative - defending your very narrow interpretation of the rules instead of embracing an opportunity to foster a player's role-playing idea for his character over multiple sessions. Working towards something, investing in his character, making his party members stronger (over time), etc. I thought this game was about storytelling, fun, being creative, finding creative solutions to problems, using spells, feats and abilities in unique ways.
Or is the concern about availability of Plate at lower levels? I say be creative and meet the excited player halfway - "Yes, you can use Artisan's Blessing, but you'll still need a Forge and Anvil (look at this from a prayer/worship perspective) and this will take your character weeks to accomplish if he/she isn't solely focused on it." Other classes have access to heavy armor and high ACs early - DMs adjust to group composition, dynamics and variable ACs often. Again, I don't see or share your perspective, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You need to go reread further up the page. Individual components can be made, but the DM needs to figure out what those components are; as well as their cost and weight. And even if they do, the cleric hits a snag as soon as they try to use Artisan's Blessing to create a breastplate. Yes, that's part of the full suit of armor.
You need to go reread further up the page. Individual components can be made, but the DM needs to figure out what those components are; as well as their cost and weight. And even if they do, the cleric hits a snag as soon as they try to use Artisan's Blessing to create a breastplate. Yes, that's part of the full suit of armor.
It's just not possible with the feature.
And you need to re-read the section where I laid out 15 pieces of armor, and if we assume 100 gp for each it's achievable with DM approval. And I allowed for option where the player only uses Channel Divinity for 14 of 15 pieces and requiring the player to physically craft the breastplate not using Channel Divinity.
Some of those items would be as a pair - gauntlets, sabatons, pauldrons, vambraces, etc. I honestly think we (yes, myself included) are making too much of this topic. I just thought I'd remind everyone that it's a DM/Player discussion, DMs have the ability to adjudicate "unique" uses of spells, channel divinity, feats, etc., as not everything is ever 100% RAW. I just intend to balance the rules-as-written crowd with the "remember it's a game and is supposed to be fun", foster creative uses of abilities and spells, and that there always be unique situations, requests, etc., that arise in a gaming group.
I read what you posted, and I stand by my rebuttal. You aren't even the first person on the previous page to suggest breaking the armor down into 100 gp chunks. It's not possible because the breastplate is valued at 400 gold pieces. Even if you could successfully argue using Artisan's Blessing to craft lesser components, the entire plan still falls apart. You cannot use it to craft plate without also breaking it completely.
And you can't successfully argue that because here's the explicit text of the feature:
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
That's it. Notice how it says a suit of armor. Not pieces of a suit of armor, but a completed suit. So we're really only talking about chain mail, chain shirt, ring mail, scale mail, and the spiked armor if anyone needs it. And that's plenty.
Oooooh. Thats actually really interesting
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I would not let someone make something that is clearly mostly NOT metal with this (like Studded Leather armor).
However, I HAVE allowed players to make entire suits of armor with it one piece at a time. Why not? A suit of new Plate armor costs 1500 gp. You can make an item up to 100 gp in value. So what's wrong with allowing someone to spend 15 days and 1500 gp in steel or whatever to make a suit of armor? You could argue that they're actually making it harder on themself by not simply buying it but to me, being able to MAKE my own armor would be a great RP hook. As a DM I would allow a roll a day against their tool use to make slight improvements to the armor like a secret compartment in the chest piece (+5 to conceal something there), hardened knuckles (2 pts of unarmed damage instead of 1) and stuff like that.
IMHO as long as it doesn't break the game and the player has a good time with it, let them do it.
I agree, but to be fair you can use your Channel Divinity once per short rest (twice per short rest at 6th and three times per short rest at 17th), so depending on the number of encounters you run through between each rest you might be able to amass enough material and coin to make multiple pieces every day. I would guesstimate that it might take closer to a week of adventuring to finish the armor. Still not ridiculous by any means
Random thought to add to this discussion: Per the lore, are the scales of Metallic dragons actually composed of metal? If so, I wonder if you killed an Adult Metallic Dragon how many iterations of Artisan's Blessing the cleric could nurse the remains for building random stuff.
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To your first point: You're right. My party usually tries for a long rest and a short rest per day but that's by our choice and not a rules thing.
To your second point. If your party actually killed a metallic dragon I would think that the carcass should be part of the reward IF they agree to hang around for processing. Ask anyone who has dressed out a large animal and they'll tell you that it can take some time.
If I were the DM I would ask if the party were trying for specific components (like meat because they're hungry or organs to make Alchemical stuff). If they want to split the work, I'd ask for a Survival roll with a bonus of half of whatever the highest skill was because they in essence have a teacher helping out. For most vertebrates, the skeleton is about 15% of their weight. I'd be willing to say that 5% of the weight of an armored creature is the outer hide. So a cow-sized dragon that weighed 2000 lbs you could get 100 lbs of scales AT THE MAXIMUM. Remember that many of the scales might be so small as to be worthless for some uses. I could easily see a party that camped for the remainder of an adventuring day and that night getting 50% or 50 lbs of scales.
What you can sell them for or make out of them are topics for another thread I think.
That is your prerogative, as DM, but RAW you can make anything so long as it incorporates at least some metal. A fire-hardened spear that has no metal head would be out of the question, but one with a metal head is allowed. That could wind up being 90% wood, and it's intended to be permissible. Piecemeal armor is not, and if you took that to an AL game they'd tell you no because you can only make completed suits.
This is where fabricate comes into play. It costs a spell slot and 10 minutes, instead of no spell slot and an hour, but it has no cost restriction. If you have access to the raw material (750 gp worth), you can craft plate for yourself, as well as for others, as early as 7th level. It doesn't even have to be made of iron or steel. There are stone breastplates in Storm King's Thunder. All you need is the right tool proficiency.
One of the last thing any of us should want to appear being as is capricious; potentially undermining the trust our players place in us to run the game fairly.
Offense taken. How is it disingenuous to emphasize that the DM is by definition the source of the cost of everything with no listed cost in a rulebook?
Many metal objects are not in the PHB, such as a thumbtack made entirely of zinc. It's very clearly intended that a Forge Cleric isn't limited to what's in the PHB, since the rules don't say that anywhere. That means the DM has to adjudicate. How much is a zinc thumbtack worth?
Sorry for that. The issue is the feature isn't designed with breaking armor down into multiple components. And the second you do, you now have to devise prices for every individual component. It's not 15 pieces that are all 100 gp in value. Pauldrons are not going to be worth the same as sabatons or vambraces. And the second you get to plackart you've already gone over what you can reasonably create. You could potentially build out from one, if you already have one, but that's still 1,100 worth of stuff you're converting across 11 short rests. That's, conservatively, 4 days worth of downtime.
Or they could just buy/find 750 gp worth of raw material and cast fabricate. That's why the Forge Domain explicitly gains both this spell and proficiency with smith's tools. The designers intended for players to use this spell to make expensive stuff that Artisan's Blessing cannot; like a breastplate, splint, half plate, and plate.
This is bending over backwards to contort a feature into doing something it was never intended to do. But, hey, what do I know? You're just advocating for the more expensive and time-consuming option.
I don't know how much one is worth. Nor will I care unless a player asks me if they can make one. Or I ask a DM if I'm playing such a character. I imagine it'll depend, at least in part, on what the cleric on them. About the only thing I can say with certainty is if they don't carry copper coins it'll probably be more expensive than it needs to be.
There's always my favorite use, effectively invert it to break out of prison in an hour by turning the bars into anything else you want.
Why couldn't a Forge Cleric use this power to create the individual parts of a suit of plate? If they have smith's tools (and they do) then it seems to me that they can save themselves some actual coin.
Even if they were to build it piece by piece, there isnt a listed price for individual pieces of the armor. Presumably, the sum total of all the parts would still cost the same amount as a the full suit, just they would have to spend days building it.
So they could save coin by using other metal and stuff, but at the end of the day it will effectively cost the same amount
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In theory, they could accomplish quite a bit. But the reality is the rules just don't support it. Even if the DM came up with a price for each individual component, and there are dozens of pieces of armor for plate, they'd hit a snag as soon as they reached the breastplate. It costs four times what Artisan's Blessing can create. And I say dozens because a lot of components come in pairs. It's a lot of crafting to do. Just take a look.
think of it as level 1 of making stuff which is why there is a list. Hence the automatic domain spell fabricate which unleashes your manufacturing potential but needs more experience
Yes, I've mentioned fabricate a few times on this page.
Still won't stop people from trying to cheat the system.
I am not sure if it was stated before but a great use of this is say... take a bunch of armor/weapons from goblins and turn them into statues. The price of art is listed in the manual but, the worth of Art is subjective. Some will pay more for the same thing.
Artisan's Blessing vs Fabricate - I see this more as a # of attempts (time) situation (DM ruling dependent obviously).
If Artisan's Blessing is used for Full-Plate, and we assume 15 pieces - it would require a minimum of 15 uses of the character's Channel Divinity - reset on Short Rest / Long Rest. The fastest a character in town and focusing on nothing but making the suit of armor would be along the lines of: Channel Divinity (1 hour) / Short Rest (1 hour) - repeat 8 times and then a Long-Rest, resulting in 2 days of focused crafting - it still requires 100 gold per piece in materials, and a total of 1500 gold (no saving for the crafter). If the character is in town they can likely find a craftsman/armorer and just buy the armor outright. The value of Artisan's Blessing is character development / role-playing while adventuring and making individual pieces over longer periods of time (at least in my mind).
Using Fabricate it's a 10 min spell and instant full suit of Plate - from potentially raw / unprocessed materials (potentially saving gold).
Regarding the breastplate cost - the DM could allow the character to make 14 pieces but then require that the large breastplate have a forge, anvil, etc., to craft - which would be one session in a town, castle, forge, etc.
You are inventing a system of armor pieces which does not exist. Armor in game can not be broken down into individual components — certainly not as a way to make an end run around the rules. You either have a suit of plate mail, or you do not, you do not have part of a suit of it. You can not use artisans blessing to piecemeal a suit of armor, at least not by RAW.
I really don't understand your perspective, and it's okay to disagree. DMs absolutely have the leeway to make adjustments like this, and just because the rules don't detail a breakdown of individual armor pieces (which I believe is to streamline the system, not prevent the role-playing), doesn't take away from the fact that players and DMs adjudicate rules for creative uses ALL THE TIME.
This breaks down into scenario #1 - allowing a player to use Channel Divinity (a blessing from his/her god) to build a suit of armor over time. It would take multiple sessions, and would result in no savings in the cost of gold (again, the player with 1500 gp could go to town and BUY the armor). This is a neat opportunity for a character to role-play being a smith of the gods.
Scenario #2 as you suggested is using Fabricate. 10 minutes, presto suit of armor from a pile of raw resources. Would need 65 lbs of metal - walk into a mine and walk out wearing Plate. Potentially no gold cost at all and achieved in 10 minutes. Difference? Channel Divinity versus 4th level spell.
Scenario #3 - just saying "No" and losing out on the opportunity to foster the excitement of the player impacting his/her experience.
I don't think I'd enjoy playing in a group with you as DM. You come across as not flexible or creative - defending your very narrow interpretation of the rules instead of embracing an opportunity to foster a player's role-playing idea for his character over multiple sessions. Working towards something, investing in his character, making his party members stronger (over time), etc. I thought this game was about storytelling, fun, being creative, finding creative solutions to problems, using spells, feats and abilities in unique ways.
Or is the concern about availability of Plate at lower levels? I say be creative and meet the excited player halfway - "Yes, you can use Artisan's Blessing, but you'll still need a Forge and Anvil (look at this from a prayer/worship perspective) and this will take your character weeks to accomplish if he/she isn't solely focused on it." Other classes have access to heavy armor and high ACs early - DMs adjust to group composition, dynamics and variable ACs often. Again, I don't see or share your perspective, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You need to go reread further up the page. Individual components can be made, but the DM needs to figure out what those components are; as well as their cost and weight. And even if they do, the cleric hits a snag as soon as they try to use Artisan's Blessing to create a breastplate. Yes, that's part of the full suit of armor.
It's just not possible with the feature.
And you need to re-read the section where I laid out 15 pieces of armor, and if we assume 100 gp for each it's achievable with DM approval. And I allowed for option where the player only uses Channel Divinity for 14 of 15 pieces and requiring the player to physically craft the breastplate not using Channel Divinity.
Some of those items would be as a pair - gauntlets, sabatons, pauldrons, vambraces, etc. I honestly think we (yes, myself included) are making too much of this topic. I just thought I'd remind everyone that it's a DM/Player discussion, DMs have the ability to adjudicate "unique" uses of spells, channel divinity, feats, etc., as not everything is ever 100% RAW. I just intend to balance the rules-as-written crowd with the "remember it's a game and is supposed to be fun", foster creative uses of abilities and spells, and that there always be unique situations, requests, etc., that arise in a gaming group.
I read what you posted, and I stand by my rebuttal. You aren't even the first person on the previous page to suggest breaking the armor down into 100 gp chunks. It's not possible because the breastplate is valued at 400 gold pieces. Even if you could successfully argue using Artisan's Blessing to craft lesser components, the entire plan still falls apart. You cannot use it to craft plate without also breaking it completely.
And you can't successfully argue that because here's the explicit text of the feature:
That's it. Notice how it says a suit of armor. Not pieces of a suit of armor, but a completed suit. So we're really only talking about chain mail, chain shirt, ring mail, scale mail, and the spiked armor if anyone needs it. And that's plenty.