I think melee clerics in general are a bad idea. Melee clerics invite taking hits, which invite concentration checks. The best spells that clerics have are generally concentration based, so you're not /really/ going to want to risk them by being in melee anyways.
And yet, the majority of Divine Domains that grant a Divine Strike also grant proficiency with heavy armor. The only one I can think of which doesn't is Trickery, but Divine Strike does also work with ranged weapon attacks. I think a cleric in melee is fine. It works.
So what if they come with heavy armor? A hit causes a concentration check, and heavy armor only provides a benefit of +1 over medium armor and dex. Divine strike, is imo, a trap baiting you into making poor choices. Additionally, weapon clerics require str or dex, while your primary job of spell casting requires wisdom. Everytime you bump your str or dex to use your weapon, you are not bumping your wis to cast spells better. If you are bumping your wis, unless you are fortunate with items you're going to be missing more.
So, again, melee clerics are a trap option and bad idea that works sort of at low levels, and gets worse and worse as you advance.
You're assuming the best nonmagical armor available. And, while fair, it barely scratches the surface.
Starting out, unless the cleric is leaning full-tilt into Dexterity and leather armor, they're going to want Strength. Medium armor is heavy. It's easy to overladen yourself and be unable to move. That happened to one of my players a year and a half ago. They built a 1st-level cleric, using the standard array, who couldn't even take a 5-foot step while carrying all their equipment. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. I let him swap some scores, but it was a good learning experience for everyone there. Still, that means 3/4 of your above-average scores are going to physical attributes. Not ideal.
Heavy armor means you can sacrifice Dexterity because it doesn't contribute to AC. Now you can evenly split those plusses between physical and mental scores. It makes for a more well-rounded character. And starting with 14 Strength and 16 Wisdom isn't hard; especially with the optional rules in Tasha's. That's enough to max out Wisdom and have more than enough Strenght for plate armor by 12th level. That's two feats over a full campaign. Even if the campaign stops around 10-11, as many modules do, 16 Strength and 18 Wisdom is plenty. And if you're playing a variant human or custom ancestry, then you can start with Resilient (Constitution) or War Caster.
It's not a trap. There are no traps. I've seen it played effectively. Hell, I've played it effectively. And it's not like the system isn't forgiving as all get out.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don't think melee clerics are a trap at all. Grab Warcaster and/or Resillient: Con instead of a wisdom boost. You don't need to rush 20 Wisdom on a melee cleric. Spiritual Guardians is one of the best uses of your concentration, and it is still a fantastic spell at 16 Wisdom. In fact, very few of your spells actually care a lot about raising Wisdom higher.
There's nothing wrong with going with a melee cleric. While there are trap options, as far as I'm aware, the only trap options the berserker, the beastmaster, and the elemental monk. Well, for subclasses anyways. There's a number of feats, spells and multiclass combos (re: most of them) that are traps. Gish characters aren't traps.
But the thing to keep in mind with War Cleric is that their melee attacks are basically slightly better than cantrips. And... Despite having the ability to hit things, War Clerics' main strength is their ability to buff the party. They're not melee powerhouses on their own. They are supporters to make everyone more powerful.
I don't think melee clerics are a trap at all. Grab Warcaster and/or Resillient: Con instead of a wisdom boost. You don't need to rush 20 Wisdom on a melee cleric. Spiritual Guardians is one of the best uses of your concentration, and it is still a fantastic spell at 16 Wisdom. In fact, very few of your spells actually care a lot about raising Wisdom higher.
You shouldn't need feats to make them behave as the base class should, out of the box.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don't think melee clerics are a trap at all. Grab Warcaster and/or Resillient: Con instead of a wisdom boost. You don't need to rush 20 Wisdom on a melee cleric. Spiritual Guardians is one of the best uses of your concentration, and it is still a fantastic spell at 16 Wisdom. In fact, very few of your spells actually care a lot about raising Wisdom higher.
You shouldn't need feats to make them behave as the base class should, out of the box.
And how should the base class behave, out of the box?
You don't need feats for a melee cleric to function. The base cleric chasis is incredibly strong, and you will be perform well with nothing but ASIs. That said, feats exist in order to help customize your playstyle. Clerics have a decent budget for feats because they don't need to max wisdom, so it makes perfect sense for a melee cleric to look to feats as a way of enhancing their abilities.
Anyways, D&D isn't an MMO race to be the first to down a raid boss. You don't need to be in the top 0.1% of characters in order to function. Calling melee clerics a trap implies that they will aren't viable to play and won't function like they appear, which is just bogus. Many players successfully play melee clerics and have fun with them (and perform well with them). There are actual traps in the game, like find traps, which do fail to meet expectations and fill their role.
Correct me here this domain allows you to make a weapon attack as a bonus actions correct?
So nothing stops you using your normal action to dodge making any attack on you (unless they aid another attacker) will be at disadvantage despite you making that attack correct?
There are 3 attack cantrips as I recall Sacred Flame, Toll of the Dead and Word of Radiance.
Your war cleric automatically had Shield of Faith prepared as one of their known spells so in addition to that suit of chain mail and a shield giving your character an 18 AC unless you have a 9 or less Dexterity score with that 1st level spell grants another +2 to AC as long as you concentrate on it giving a 20 AC for up to 10 minutes and you think thats weak?
I'm running a Knowledge domain Cleric with Dex of 15 and started off wearing a Chain Shirt with a Shield thus an AC of 17 because I didn't want disadvantage on checks (just recently found out about exhaustion rules mind you!) and have downgraded to Hide armour and put the Chain Shirt back in my character's temple due to battle damage courtesy of a team mate downing my character with a firebolt to the back due to a fumbled spell attack.
I don't have any of the advantages this war cleric has, but I don't see my character as weak merely interesting.
What is the real problem here because I don't think its the character or the class?
I think melee clerics in general are a bad idea. Melee clerics invite taking hits, which invite concentration checks. The best spells that clerics have are generally concentration based, so you're not /really/ going to want to risk them by being in melee anyways.
And yet, the majority of Divine Domains that grant a Divine Strike also grant proficiency with heavy armor. The only one I can think of which doesn't is Trickery, but Divine Strike does also work with ranged weapon attacks. I think a cleric in melee is fine. It works.
So what if they come with heavy armor? A hit causes a concentration check, and heavy armor only provides a benefit of +1 over medium armor and dex. Divine strike, is imo, a trap baiting you into making poor choices. Additionally, weapon clerics require str or dex, while your primary job of spell casting requires wisdom. Everytime you bump your str or dex to use your weapon, you are not bumping your wis to cast spells better. If you are bumping your wis, unless you are fortunate with items you're going to be missing more.
So, again, melee clerics are a trap option and bad idea that works sort of at low levels, and gets worse and worse as you advance.
You're assuming the best nonmagical armor available. And, while fair, it barely scratches the surface.
Starting out, unless the cleric is leaning full-tilt into Dexterity and leather armor, they're going to want Strength. Medium armor is heavy. It's easy to overladen yourself and be unable to move. That happened to one of my players a year and a half ago. They built a 1st-level cleric, using the standard array, who couldn't even take a 5-foot step while carrying all their equipment. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. I let him swap some scores, but it was a good learning experience for everyone there. Still, that means 3/4 of your above-average scores are going to physical attributes. Not ideal.
Heavy armor means you can sacrifice Dexterity because it doesn't contribute to AC. Now you can evenly split those plusses between physical and mental scores. It makes for a more well-rounded character. And starting with 14 Strength and 16 Wisdom isn't hard; especially with the optional rules in Tasha's. That's enough to max out Wisdom and have more than enough Strenght for plate armor by 12th level. That's two feats over a full campaign. Even if the campaign stops around 10-11, as many modules do, 16 Strength and 18 Wisdom is plenty. And if you're playing a variant human or custom ancestry, then you can start with Resilient (Constitution) or War Caster.
It's not a trap. There are no traps. I've seen it played effectively. Hell, I've played it effectively. And it's not like the system isn't forgiving as all get out.
Medium armor is hardly heavy....
Even with 8 STR you can carry 120 lbs and a shield, scale, and rapier (you are a dex based cleric after all) come in at around 53 lbs.
With one of the starting kits you are at 114 lbs which is indeed close to the limit but you hardly need most of the kit. Unless you are in a survival campaign you do not need a full 10 days rations so there is 20 lbs gone.
You also do not need torches as you have light cantrip (or racial darkvision). So there is another 10lbs.
So after 30lbs is dropped in unneeded things you are sitting at like 84 lbs which gives you the ability to carry 40lbs of loot.
If you are using the OPTIONAL VARIANT encumbrance then you could say you drop your speed up to 20ft with heavy encumbrance but even then if you travel light you are about 30 lbs under that with just your armor/shield/weapon and you can have one of the stronger backed fellows in the group carry the equipment.
Overall a DEX cleric is actually a pretty solid bet for War cleric as you can use a longbow and get a BA attack with your bow. Pair this with SS and your guided strike and you can do some serious damage.
War cleric is one of the weaker cleric domains as they continue to introduce more powerful options (Twilight and Order come to mind)
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
Melee Clerics actually built with Melee in mind and a build somewhat similar to that of a Tank or a Paladin combined with the Fact that they are Primarily a SAD class have quite an easy time putting points or array stats towards things like Con and Strength. Considering that your typical standard array Cleric can actually max out their wisdom with 2 to 2 1/2 ASI's if you assume the 15 went into Wisdom and potentially could be even less with a couple of race combinations, Race combinations that actually tend to have stats that boost your secondary stats such as Con and Strength for such a build. Heavy Armor is not over rated at all. It can be a powerful feature to have and there are combinations that can make it even stronger.
War Cleric is not really weak but it can take a play style or setup that may not match your personal playstyle or setup. But there are multiple ways to set it up and make use of it.
Being able to Easily focus on Constitution can actually make the concentration spells that the War Cleric comes with more useful. Things like Armor of Faith and a shield combined with that heavy armor can make the Cleric almost unhittable by anything that has to make an attack roll. Being Wisdom based gives you a decently strong protection to one of the most common type of saves. Even more than a High Dex does because it's a save your proficient in on top of having a high stat. On top of that a couple of the generally considered must have Feats in War Caster and Resilient actually lend a lot to a Melee clerics style. Both in giving them a greater range of things to do during their AoO but keeping those spells even more likely to make their con Saves. But assuming you want to take a more Defensive direction than just keeping your spells going They can actually shore up their dex defense with Shield Master which effectively gives them Evasion and this can be taken as early as first level with Variant Human further decreasing the need for dexterity because they take half damage at most as long as they have a shield on hand. But one that people might not think of that if taken at First level is actually extremely powerful that War Cleric can take specifically because of that heavy armor is Heavy Armor master. Removing 3 damage from any and all physical damage attacks at low levels is an Amazing effect to have on you and it actually pairs nicely with the extremely lackluster and probably weakest ability the war cleric has. That of the Level 17 ability that is mostly only useful against Minions in large scale battles. But there is a surprisingly long time that it applies against non-spell casters because it takes a long time for standard stat block enemies before magical physical attacks.
But that is just talking Defensively. Offensively there is quite a bit to speak of as well. Divine Favor actually adds damage to all of your physical attacks on top of the War Cleric being able to use Martial Weapons which is 1 of only 4 Cleric Domains that actually get access to Martial Weapons and gets a versatile weapon at starting for Free. On top of that the War Cleric has Divine Favor which for the price of your concentration slot actually adds damage to each and every strike that the War Cleric does on top of the fact that the War Cleric can make a certain number of BA attacks without the typical limits that things like Dual Wielding require to make such attacks. Divine Favor if you need or wish to can be upgraded into Magical Weapon or Crusaders Mantle which is Divine Favor for your entire party since they are higher level spells given to you automatically (the damage from which actually is affected if you Crit). Additionally, With your Channel Divinity helping you to make sure that you land a couple more attacks to take advantage of that extra damage more. Due keep in mind that Channel Divinity may be limited to 2 uses at low level but it recharges on a short rest giving you actually 6 uses over the typically listed adventuring day (your experience may vary depending on your party and style of adventure of course). On top of all that you don't even have to worry about having to prepare two of the most useful Cleric spells to many with the War Cleric. They always have access to using both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit guardians. Spirit Guardians actually being an excellent spell for Melee clerics to use both as an offensive and defensive tool.
And Divine Strike is not a Trap. Divine Strike while 3 levels behind the martial classes is the Clerics version of Extra Attack for physical attacks on top of getting a version of it through the upgrading of their Cantrips by level. But instead of making two straight attacks it is simply applied when your first attack is successful. 1d8 being the Average Damage of a basic weapon attack without modifiers and it actually jumps up to 2d8 should you ever get up to level 14. War Clerics actually have A potentially potent version of this because they have the only version of this Power where the type of damage you deal with it is actually variable. It's additional Damage of the type you were already dealing which means you can actually alter it based upon what weapon you use with it rather than simply having a set type (many of them being radiant).
I'am running Tomb Anihilation with a Human War Cleric (Hoar). Urban bounty Hunter background. Actually Lv8.
The rest of the group, a half-orc battlemaster Warrior, a half-elf monk and a Bladesinger elf.
Obviously I'am not the principal ofensive opción, but the Cleric can play diferentes roles. He can heal his comrades, take off poison, Turn undead, bless..
Also, he can use Spirit Guardians, really usefull against groups, Spiritual weapon, Sacred flame, and the bonus attacks an Channel Divinity for a +10 are a point.
And, due yo his high WIS, proficience with thieves tools and his recently acquired Prodigy feat, is the "Rogue" of the team.
The War Cleric probably is not a powerfull domain, but that is not as important as playing the character you have in mind, and addapt him to your party, making him strong where others are not.
I'am running Tomb Anihilation with a Human War Cleric (Hoar). Urban bounty Hunter background. Actually Lv8.
The rest of the group, a half-orc battlemaster Warrior, a half-elf monk and a Bladesinger elf.
Obviously I'am not the principal ofensive opción, but the Cleric can play diferentes roles. He can heal his comrades, take off poison, Turn undead, bless..
Also, he can use Spirit Guardians, really usefull against groups, Spiritual weapon, Sacred flame, and the bonus attacks an Channel Divinity for a +10 are a point.
And, due yo his high WIS, proficience with thieves tools and his recently acquired Prodigy feat, is the "Rogue" of the team.
The War Cleric probably is not a powerfull domain, but that is not as important as playing the character you have in mind, and addapt him to your party, making him strong where others are not.
Full agree here. You can get a lot of damage out of a cleric regardless of domain due to their spell list. War may not be the most powerful from a feature standpoint but will do just fine.
War Cleric specializes by being a full caster who can also be a more viable melee fighter than any other cleric. When compared to a bunch of dedicated melee fighters, its melee abilities will feel weak.
If your war cleric holds out for a few more levels, they'll start getting access to divine intervention and really powerful spells.
But if they saw that image of the armored dwarf in the cleric heading and thought they would be playing something more like a Paladin, telling them they are actually a powerful spellcaster who is slightly better than awful at melee combat might not satisfy them.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
It has been my experience that Clerics do better lower in the initiative order to be able to pick up their companions who have fallen that round. And between spirit guardians and spiritual weapon their dance card is already pretty full to waste effort on buffs. At least, that’s my experience.
If you expect to be within 15 feet of several enemies, then spirit guardians is a great spell to have prepared. For a melee cleric, yeah, it's a good choice. Some prefer to fight at range, like those with the Trickry Domain, and so might not. And then there are your more castery clerics with Potent Cantrip who can probably to better at range.
But spells like bane and bless never go out of style. There are tons of spells that compete for Concentration that could be better than spirit guardians; all without even getting into domain spells.
If you expect to be within 15 feet of several enemies, then spirit guardians is a great spell to have prepared. For a melee cleric, yeah, it's a good choice. Some prefer to fight at range, like those with the Trickry Domain, and so might not. And then there are your more castery clerics with Potent Cantrip who can probably to better at range.
But spells like bane and bless never go out of style. There are tons of spells that compete for Concentration that could be better than spirit guardians; all without even getting into domain spells.
This is a good point. If war domain is viewed a cleric subclass that just gives you a bunch of cleric spells you'll always want on hand anyways, then its really kind of the most versatile cleric subclass with an option for better than usual melee combat on the side.
The main issue I have with War cleric is that it does not have any Smite Spells....like if there was one caster who would benefit from boosting a single big hit per turn its War cleric.
Its a HUGE swing and miss to me.
Divine Favor is a bad spell for them as it only adds 1d4 damage per turn as they will only ever get 1 attack so while a bit flavorful its pretty lame overall for the subclass.
I would have greatly preferred stuff like Searing Strike, Wrathful Strike, etc...
They do get spirit guardians/spiritual weapon which is a great add for them tho so its a bit of a mixed bag.
Spell lists can really make or break a cleric subclass like Trickery has fairly bad features but an amazing spell list.
It has been my experience that Clerics do better lower in the initiative order to be able to pick up their companions who have fallen that round. And between spirit guardians and spiritual weapon their dance card is already pretty full to waste effort on buffs. At least, that’s my experience.
After the first round, your place in the order no longer has any relevance, especially as it pertains to healing and if you are having the heal in the first round (which you could also do at the top of round 2), then something is likely wrong.
It has been my experience that Clerics do better lower in the initiative order to be able to pick up their companions who have fallen that round. And between spirit guardians and spiritual weapon their dance card is already pretty full to waste effort on buffs. At least, that’s my experience.
I can always pick them up on round 2. When the enemies go really determines when I might have to pick someone up. Spiritual weapon isn't going to use up concentration, so that's going to get cast regardless.
There are situations when I am not going to want to use spirit guardians for a variety of reasons, usually depending on my spell slot availability. Sometimes, I'm just going to want to run bless depending on the situation. I just don't really agree that there's any benefit to going later in the order. If I have to get someone up on round 1, things are way, way wrong.
If you expect to be within 15 feet of several enemies, then spirit guardians is a great spell to have prepared. For a melee cleric, yeah, it's a good choice. Some prefer to fight at range, like those with the Trickry Domain, and so might not. And then there are your more castery clerics with Potent Cantrip who can probably to better at range.
But spells like bane and bless never go out of style. There are tons of spells that compete for Concentration that could be better than spirit guardians; all without even getting into domain spells.
I'm not a fan of bane at all, but I very much like bless, all the time. Even on my castery clerics (such as light) though, I find I like to stay at fairly close range, even if I am not mixing it up in melee. Spiritual weapon is going eat up my bonus action /most/ of the time, so my action can usually be open for cure wounds if I need to get someone up. Right behind the backliners is where I like to park myself, and that usually keeps the enemy frontline inside spirit guardians, while keeping me /out/ of interrupt range for them.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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You're assuming the best nonmagical armor available. And, while fair, it barely scratches the surface.
Starting out, unless the cleric is leaning full-tilt into Dexterity and leather armor, they're going to want Strength. Medium armor is heavy. It's easy to overladen yourself and be unable to move. That happened to one of my players a year and a half ago. They built a 1st-level cleric, using the standard array, who couldn't even take a 5-foot step while carrying all their equipment. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. I let him swap some scores, but it was a good learning experience for everyone there. Still, that means 3/4 of your above-average scores are going to physical attributes. Not ideal.
Heavy armor means you can sacrifice Dexterity because it doesn't contribute to AC. Now you can evenly split those plusses between physical and mental scores. It makes for a more well-rounded character. And starting with 14 Strength and 16 Wisdom isn't hard; especially with the optional rules in Tasha's. That's enough to max out Wisdom and have more than enough Strenght for plate armor by 12th level. That's two feats over a full campaign. Even if the campaign stops around 10-11, as many modules do, 16 Strength and 18 Wisdom is plenty. And if you're playing a variant human or custom ancestry, then you can start with Resilient (Constitution) or War Caster.
It's not a trap. There are no traps. I've seen it played effectively. Hell, I've played it effectively. And it's not like the system isn't forgiving as all get out.
I don't care about being able to dump dex, because I will never /want/ do. I'd by far rather dump str, which is mostly useless outside...melee weapon attacks.
You are flat wrong about there not being any trap options, and imo, melee cleric is absolutely one of them. Furthermore, heavy armor is massively overrated.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I don't think melee clerics are a trap at all. Grab Warcaster and/or Resillient: Con instead of a wisdom boost. You don't need to rush 20 Wisdom on a melee cleric. Spiritual Guardians is one of the best uses of your concentration, and it is still a fantastic spell at 16 Wisdom. In fact, very few of your spells actually care a lot about raising Wisdom higher.
There's nothing wrong with going with a melee cleric. While there are trap options, as far as I'm aware, the only trap options the berserker, the beastmaster, and the elemental monk. Well, for subclasses anyways. There's a number of feats, spells and multiclass combos (re: most of them) that are traps. Gish characters aren't traps.
But the thing to keep in mind with War Cleric is that their melee attacks are basically slightly better than cantrips. And... Despite having the ability to hit things, War Clerics' main strength is their ability to buff the party. They're not melee powerhouses on their own. They are supporters to make everyone more powerful.
You shouldn't need feats to make them behave as the base class should, out of the box.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
And how should the base class behave, out of the box?
You don't need feats for a melee cleric to function. The base cleric chasis is incredibly strong, and you will be perform well with nothing but ASIs. That said, feats exist in order to help customize your playstyle. Clerics have a decent budget for feats because they don't need to max wisdom, so it makes perfect sense for a melee cleric to look to feats as a way of enhancing their abilities.
Anyways, D&D isn't an MMO race to be the first to down a raid boss. You don't need to be in the top 0.1% of characters in order to function. Calling melee clerics a trap implies that they will aren't viable to play and won't function like they appear, which is just bogus. Many players successfully play melee clerics and have fun with them (and perform well with them). There are actual traps in the game, like find traps, which do fail to meet expectations and fill their role.
Correct me here this domain allows you to make a weapon attack as a bonus actions correct?
So nothing stops you using your normal action to dodge making any attack on you (unless they aid another attacker) will be at disadvantage despite you making that attack correct?
There are 3 attack cantrips as I recall Sacred Flame, Toll of the Dead and Word of Radiance.
Your war cleric automatically had Shield of Faith prepared as one of their known spells so in addition to that suit of chain mail and a shield giving your character an 18 AC unless you have a 9 or less Dexterity score with that 1st level spell grants another +2 to AC as long as you concentrate on it giving a 20 AC for up to 10 minutes and you think thats weak?
I'm running a Knowledge domain Cleric with Dex of 15 and started off wearing a Chain Shirt with a Shield thus an AC of 17 because I didn't want disadvantage on checks (just recently found out about exhaustion rules mind you!) and have downgraded to Hide armour and put the Chain Shirt back in my character's temple due to battle damage courtesy of a team mate downing my character with a firebolt to the back due to a fumbled spell attack.
I don't have any of the advantages this war cleric has, but I don't see my character as weak merely interesting.
What is the real problem here because I don't think its the character or the class?
Medium armor is hardly heavy....
Even with 8 STR you can carry 120 lbs and a shield, scale, and rapier (you are a dex based cleric after all) come in at around 53 lbs.
With one of the starting kits you are at 114 lbs which is indeed close to the limit but you hardly need most of the kit. Unless you are in a survival campaign you do not need a full 10 days rations so there is 20 lbs gone.
You also do not need torches as you have light cantrip (or racial darkvision). So there is another 10lbs.
So after 30lbs is dropped in unneeded things you are sitting at like 84 lbs which gives you the ability to carry 40lbs of loot.
If you are using the OPTIONAL VARIANT encumbrance then you could say you drop your speed up to 20ft with heavy encumbrance but even then if you travel light you are about 30 lbs under that with just your armor/shield/weapon and you can have one of the stronger backed fellows in the group carry the equipment.
Overall a DEX cleric is actually a pretty solid bet for War cleric as you can use a longbow and get a BA attack with your bow. Pair this with SS and your guided strike and you can do some serious damage.
War cleric is one of the weaker cleric domains as they continue to introduce more powerful options (Twilight and Order come to mind)
This is an argument purely for your style and not an actual valid argument about the validity of the tactic. Just because you would never dump Dex that is purely a choice you are making and is not necessarily needed for other valid builds.
Melee Clerics actually built with Melee in mind and a build somewhat similar to that of a Tank or a Paladin combined with the Fact that they are Primarily a SAD class have quite an easy time putting points or array stats towards things like Con and Strength. Considering that your typical standard array Cleric can actually max out their wisdom with 2 to 2 1/2 ASI's if you assume the 15 went into Wisdom and potentially could be even less with a couple of race combinations, Race combinations that actually tend to have stats that boost your secondary stats such as Con and Strength for such a build. Heavy Armor is not over rated at all. It can be a powerful feature to have and there are combinations that can make it even stronger.
War Cleric is not really weak but it can take a play style or setup that may not match your personal playstyle or setup. But there are multiple ways to set it up and make use of it.
Being able to Easily focus on Constitution can actually make the concentration spells that the War Cleric comes with more useful. Things like Armor of Faith and a shield combined with that heavy armor can make the Cleric almost unhittable by anything that has to make an attack roll. Being Wisdom based gives you a decently strong protection to one of the most common type of saves. Even more than a High Dex does because it's a save your proficient in on top of having a high stat. On top of that a couple of the generally considered must have Feats in War Caster and Resilient actually lend a lot to a Melee clerics style. Both in giving them a greater range of things to do during their AoO but keeping those spells even more likely to make their con Saves. But assuming you want to take a more Defensive direction than just keeping your spells going They can actually shore up their dex defense with Shield Master which effectively gives them Evasion and this can be taken as early as first level with Variant Human further decreasing the need for dexterity because they take half damage at most as long as they have a shield on hand. But one that people might not think of that if taken at First level is actually extremely powerful that War Cleric can take specifically because of that heavy armor is Heavy Armor master. Removing 3 damage from any and all physical damage attacks at low levels is an Amazing effect to have on you and it actually pairs nicely with the extremely lackluster and probably weakest ability the war cleric has. That of the Level 17 ability that is mostly only useful against Minions in large scale battles. But there is a surprisingly long time that it applies against non-spell casters because it takes a long time for standard stat block enemies before magical physical attacks.
But that is just talking Defensively. Offensively there is quite a bit to speak of as well. Divine Favor actually adds damage to all of your physical attacks on top of the War Cleric being able to use Martial Weapons which is 1 of only 4 Cleric Domains that actually get access to Martial Weapons and gets a versatile weapon at starting for Free. On top of that the War Cleric has Divine Favor which for the price of your concentration slot actually adds damage to each and every strike that the War Cleric does on top of the fact that the War Cleric can make a certain number of BA attacks without the typical limits that things like Dual Wielding require to make such attacks. Divine Favor if you need or wish to can be upgraded into Magical Weapon or Crusaders Mantle which is Divine Favor for your entire party since they are higher level spells given to you automatically (the damage from which actually is affected if you Crit). Additionally, With your Channel Divinity helping you to make sure that you land a couple more attacks to take advantage of that extra damage more. Due keep in mind that Channel Divinity may be limited to 2 uses at low level but it recharges on a short rest giving you actually 6 uses over the typically listed adventuring day (your experience may vary depending on your party and style of adventure of course). On top of all that you don't even have to worry about having to prepare two of the most useful Cleric spells to many with the War Cleric. They always have access to using both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit guardians. Spirit Guardians actually being an excellent spell for Melee clerics to use both as an offensive and defensive tool.
And Divine Strike is not a Trap. Divine Strike while 3 levels behind the martial classes is the Clerics version of Extra Attack for physical attacks on top of getting a version of it through the upgrading of their Cantrips by level. But instead of making two straight attacks it is simply applied when your first attack is successful. 1d8 being the Average Damage of a basic weapon attack without modifiers and it actually jumps up to 2d8 should you ever get up to level 14. War Clerics actually have A potentially potent version of this because they have the only version of this Power where the type of damage you deal with it is actually variable. It's additional Damage of the type you were already dealing which means you can actually alter it based upon what weapon you use with it rather than simply having a set type (many of them being radiant).
I'am running Tomb Anihilation with a Human War Cleric (Hoar). Urban bounty Hunter background. Actually Lv8.
The rest of the group, a half-orc battlemaster Warrior, a half-elf monk and a Bladesinger elf.
Obviously I'am not the principal ofensive opción, but the Cleric can play diferentes roles. He can heal his comrades, take off poison, Turn undead, bless..
Also, he can use Spirit Guardians, really usefull against groups, Spiritual weapon, Sacred flame, and the bonus attacks an Channel Divinity for a +10 are a point.
And, due yo his high WIS, proficience with thieves tools and his recently acquired Prodigy feat, is the "Rogue" of the team.
The War Cleric probably is not a powerfull domain, but that is not as important as playing the character you have in mind, and addapt him to your party, making him strong where others are not.
Full agree here. You can get a lot of damage out of a cleric regardless of domain due to their spell list.
War may not be the most powerful from a feature standpoint but will do just fine.
War Cleric specializes by being a full caster who can also be a more viable melee fighter than any other cleric. When compared to a bunch of dedicated melee fighters, its melee abilities will feel weak.
If your war cleric holds out for a few more levels, they'll start getting access to divine intervention and really powerful spells.
But if they saw that image of the armored dwarf in the cleric heading and thought they would be playing something more like a Paladin, telling them they are actually a powerful spellcaster who is slightly better than awful at melee combat might not satisfy them.
It's not really. There are mechanical reasons why I dislike dumping dex. Initiative, saving throws and skills are /all/ better for dex. Str really gives you one skill (athletics) and one rarely used saving throw. Init happens every combat and clerics want to do as soon as possible, particularly when buffing, dex checks and saves are both very common.
It's not a style option at all, and in fact, if I were playing a war cleric, I'd likely be using a rapier anyway because dex is superior to str unless you are using a 2h weapon. 2h melee clerics are /begging/ to take and fail concentration checks.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It has been my experience that Clerics do better lower in the initiative order to be able to pick up their companions who have fallen that round. And between spirit guardians and spiritual weapon their dance card is already pretty full to waste effort on buffs. At least, that’s my experience.
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If you expect to be within 15 feet of several enemies, then spirit guardians is a great spell to have prepared. For a melee cleric, yeah, it's a good choice. Some prefer to fight at range, like those with the Trickry Domain, and so might not. And then there are your more castery clerics with Potent Cantrip who can probably to better at range.
But spells like bane and bless never go out of style. There are tons of spells that compete for Concentration that could be better than spirit guardians; all without even getting into domain spells.
This is a good point. If war domain is viewed a cleric subclass that just gives you a bunch of cleric spells you'll always want on hand anyways, then its really kind of the most versatile cleric subclass with an option for better than usual melee combat on the side.
The main issue I have with War cleric is that it does not have any Smite Spells....like if there was one caster who would benefit from boosting a single big hit per turn its War cleric.
Its a HUGE swing and miss to me.
Divine Favor is a bad spell for them as it only adds 1d4 damage per turn as they will only ever get 1 attack so while a bit flavorful its pretty lame overall for the subclass.
I would have greatly preferred stuff like Searing Strike, Wrathful Strike, etc...
They do get spirit guardians/spiritual weapon which is a great add for them tho so its a bit of a mixed bag.
Spell lists can really make or break a cleric subclass like Trickery has fairly bad features but an amazing spell list.
After the first round, your place in the order no longer has any relevance, especially as it pertains to healing and if you are having the heal in the first round (which you could also do at the top of round 2), then something is likely wrong.
I can always pick them up on round 2. When the enemies go really determines when I might have to pick someone up. Spiritual weapon isn't going to use up concentration, so that's going to get cast regardless.
There are situations when I am not going to want to use spirit guardians for a variety of reasons, usually depending on my spell slot availability. Sometimes, I'm just going to want to run bless depending on the situation. I just don't really agree that there's any benefit to going later in the order. If I have to get someone up on round 1, things are way, way wrong.
I'm not a fan of bane at all, but I very much like bless, all the time. Even on my castery clerics (such as light) though, I find I like to stay at fairly close range, even if I am not mixing it up in melee. Spiritual weapon is going eat up my bonus action /most/ of the time, so my action can usually be open for cure wounds if I need to get someone up. Right behind the backliners is where I like to park myself, and that usually keeps the enemy frontline inside spirit guardians, while keeping me /out/ of interrupt range for them.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha