Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
Is Proficiency Bonus not a class feature?
Proficiency Bonus is not a class feature, no. Player characters' Proficiency Bonuses are not defined by any aspect of their class, but by their total character level. Proficiency Bonuses for creatures who don't have levels are calculated based on their Challenge Rating, which also has nothing to do with classes.
Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
Is Proficiency Bonus not a class feature?
Proficiency Bonus is not a class feature, no. Player characters' Proficiency Bonuses are not defined by any aspect of their class, but by their total character level. Proficiency Bonuses for creatures who don't have levels are calculated based on their Challenge Rating, which also has nothing to do with classes.
Why isn't Proficiency Bonus a class feature, when it's expressly on the table of every class' class features?
Is your Level not a class feature? I understand how there's a column labeled Class Features, but some on. Spellcasting doesn't work without knowing your Level and Proficiency Bonus, and they're found on a table under the heading Druid Class Features.
A level 9 Druid (Circle of the Moon) still needs their Druid Level to cast Mass Cure Wounds while using Wild Shape in their Circle Forms. And if that is retained, because there's no "Level" exception, then so must the Proficiency Bonus.
To sum up, I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features.
The features table in your class description shows your Proficiency Bonus (described in chapter 1), which is +2 for a level 1 character. Note this number on your character sheet. You’ll fill in other numbers connected to these proficiencies in step 5.
Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
Is Proficiency Bonus not a class feature?
Proficiency Bonus is not a class feature, no. Player characters' Proficiency Bonuses are not defined by any aspect of their class, but by their total character level. Proficiency Bonuses for creatures who don't have levels are calculated based on their Challenge Rating, which also has nothing to do with classes.
Why isn't Proficiency Bonus a class feature, when it's expressly on the table of every class' class features?
Is your Level not a class feature? I understand how there's a column labeled Class Features, but some on. Spellcasting doesn't work without knowing your Level and Proficiency Bonus, and they're found on a table under the heading Druid Class Features.
A level 9 Druid (Circle of the Moon) still needs their Druid Level to cast Mass Cure Wounds while using Wild Shape in their Circle Forms. And if that is retained, because there's no "Level" exception, then so must the Proficiency Bonus.
To sum up, I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features.
Proficiency Bonus is derived from your character level, and your character level is not a class feature.
In your example, imagine your level 9 Druid is also a level 6 Cleric. What is their Proficiency Bonus? If it's a class feature, you need to look at either the Druid table (which would say it's +4) or the Cleric table (which would say it's +3). Which is it?
The answer is: neither, because Proficiency Bonus isn't defined by your class, it's defined by your character level, and the Proficiency Bonus for a level 15 character is +5.
Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
Is Proficiency Bonus not a class feature?
Proficiency Bonus is not a class feature, no. Player characters' Proficiency Bonuses are not defined by any aspect of their class, but by their total character level. Proficiency Bonuses for creatures who don't have levels are calculated based on their Challenge Rating, which also has nothing to do with classes.
Why isn't Proficiency Bonus a class feature, when it's expressly on the table of every class' class features?
Is your Level not a class feature? I understand how there's a column labeled Class Features, but some on. Spellcasting doesn't work without knowing your Level and Proficiency Bonus, and they're found on a table under the heading Druid Class Features.
A level 9 Druid (Circle of the Moon) still needs their Druid Level to cast Mass Cure Wounds while using Wild Shape in their Circle Forms. And if that is retained, because there's no "Level" exception, then so must the Proficiency Bonus.
To sum up, I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features.
Proficiency Bonus is derived from your character level, and your character level is not a class feature.
In your example, imagine your level 9 Druid is also a level 6 Cleric. What is their Proficiency Bonus? If it's a class feature, you need to look at either the Druid table (which would say it's +4) or the Cleric table (which would say it's +3). Which is it?
The answer is: neither, because Proficiency Bonus isn't defined by your class, it's defined by your character level, and the Proficiency Bonus for a level 15 character is +5.
I'm going to be charitable and assume you missed the P.S. above.
You dodged the question I raised by presenting your own. That's not how this works. If you let something go unchallenged, it stands. To wit:
I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features.
And you just let that one run away from you.
Level and Proficiency Bonus have their own columns on the features table. Spellcasting falls under a column explicitly labeled "Class Features," and it is dependent on other columns to function. If those other columns don't count as class features, then you are proposing that Spellcasting itself is broken and unusable while in a Wild Shape; even for Circle of the Moon. I don't know if you're implying the PB for Spellcasting is replaced by the PB associated with the chosen Wild Shape, but I'm assuming you are. Which would mean, in many circumstances, a reduced spell attack roll for Starry Wisp and a reduced Spell Save DC for Moonbeam.
And without a Level, the druid can't even have spells prepared.
As for the point you raised, Multiclassing is an exception to the general rule of a character with a single class. Such characters are instructed to refer to the Character Advancement Table, and they retain all their class features when they Wild Shape; including their Cleric ones. Class features are class features; regardless of how many classes your character has.
I'm going to be charitable and assume you missed the P.S. above.
You dodged the question I raised by presenting your own. That's not how this works. If you let something go unchallenged, it stands. To wit:
I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features.
And you just let that one run away from you.
Level and Proficiency Bonus have their own columns on the features table. Spellcasting falls under a column explicitly labeled "Class Features," and it is dependent on other columns to function. If those other columns don't count as class features, then you are proposing that Spellcasting itself is broken and unusable while in a Wild Shape; even for Circle of the Moon. I don't know if you're implying the PB for Spellcasting is replaced by the PB associated with the chosen Wild Shape, but I'm assuming you are. Which would mean, in many circumstances, a reduced spell attack roll for Starry Wisp and a reduced Spell Save DC for Moonbeam.
And without a Level, the druid can't even have spells prepared.
As for the point you raised, Multiclassing is an exception to the general rule of a character with a single class. Such characters are instructed to refer to the Character Advancement Table, and they retain all their class features when they Wild Shape; including their Cleric ones. Class features are class features; regardless of how many classes your character has.
Allow me to humor you. In order to refute your point that "I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features." Wait. That's just a statement.
Your only somewhat valid point of contention is that spellcasting should use the new form's PB if the rules exist. This is somewhat vague, but I believe that spell attack rolls and save DCs are part of the spellcasting feature and should be unaffected.
Your next point makes no sense. Spellcasting is a feature and is therefore allowed in wildshape (as a moon druid, where the specific restriction is lifted).
Here's what it says when it instructs you to look at the advancement table:
Proficiency Bonus
Your Proficiency Bonus is based on your total character level, not your level in a particular class, as shown in the Character Advancement table. For example, if you are a level 3 Fighter / level 2 Rogue, you have the Proficiency Bonus of a level 5 character, which is +3.
What defines a class feature? Is it only things listed under that column in every class' features table, or is it everything listed in the class' feature table? For example.
Druid Class Features
As a Druid, you gain the following class features when you reach the specified Druid levels. These features are listed in the Druid Features table.
Druid Features
And then we have the aforementioned table, which lists the following from left to right.
Level
Proficiency Bonus
Class Features
Wild Shape
Cantrips
Prepared Spells
Spell Slots Per Level
Is your class level a class feature? Is a prepared spell a class feature?
As I stated on a previous page, game statistics do not include the Proficiency Bonus. A monster uses its Challenge Rating to determine its PB, but a character uses its Character Level. A character's PB is first shown on the Character Advancement table, but it's also repeated on every class' feature table. Since it isn't a game statistic, it isn't something replaced by the new form, and a character in a Wild Shape doesn't lose their class levels.
Or is the claim that a Humanoid Druid in a Wild Shape is a CR X Humanoid?
This might shock you, but I've asked these question before and nobody replied with an answer.
What defines a class feature? Is it only things listed under that column in every class' features table, or is it everything listed in the class' feature table? For example.
Druid Class Features
As a Druid, you gain the following class features when you reach the specified Druid levels. These features are listed in the Druid Features table.
Druid Features
And then we have the aforementioned table, which lists the following from left to right.
Level
Proficiency Bonus
Class Features
Wild Shape
Cantrips
Prepared Spells
Spell Slots Per Level
Is your class level a class feature? Is a prepared spell a class feature?
As I stated on a previous page, game statistics do not include the Proficiency Bonus. A monster uses its Challenge Rating to determine its PB, but a character uses its Character Level. A character's PB is first shown on the Character Advancement table, but it's also repeated on every class' feature table. Since it isn't a game statistic, it isn't something replaced by the new form, and a character in a Wild Shape doesn't lose their class levels.
Or is the claim that a Humanoid Druid in a Wild Shape is a CR X Humanoid?
This might shock you, but I've asked these question before and nobody replied with an answer.
Let's break this down.
Level: A point of contention here.
Proficiency bonus: Also contended here.
Class Features: Are class features.
Wild Shape: Describing part of a class feature.
Cantrips: Describing part of a class feature.
Prepared Spells: Describing part of a class feature.
Spell Slots Per Level: Describing part of a class feature.
I think the only one of those that is class features, is class features.
If the PB is not part of game statistics, why is it in stat blocks? example
A stat block contains the game statistics of a monster. Each stat block includes the following information presented after the monster’s name.
The closest it comes is by making it a derivative of something else, but it isn't listed as its own statistic.
CR. Challenge Rating summarizes the threat a monster poses and is detailed in the Monster Manual. The Experience Points characters receive for defeating a monster and its Proficiency Bonus follow. Some creatures that are created by magic have no CR. See also “Challenge Rating” and “Experience Points.”
A stat block contains the game statistics of a monster. Each stat block includes the following information presented after the monster’s name.
The closest it comes is by making it a derivative of something else, but it isn't listed as its own statistic.
CR. Challenge Rating summarizes the threat a monster poses and is detailed in the Monster Manual. The Experience Points characters receive for defeating a monster and its Proficiency Bonus follow. Some creatures that are created by magic have no CR. See also “Challenge Rating” and “Experience Points.”
I went over this already on a prior page.
"A stat block contains the game statistics of a monster. Each stat block includes the following information presented after the monster’s name." Those are two separate statements. It is entirely possible based on that that none of the listed things are game statistics.
A stat block contains the game statistics of a monster. Each stat block includes the following information presented after the monster’s name.
The closest it comes is by making it a derivative of something else, but it isn't listed as its own statistic.
CR. Challenge Rating summarizes the threat a monster poses and is detailed in the Monster Manual. The Experience Points characters receive for defeating a monster and its Proficiency Bonus follow. Some creatures that are created by magic have no CR. See also “Challenge Rating” and “Experience Points.”
I went over this already on a prior page.
"A stat block contains the game statistics of a monster. Each stat block includes the following information presented after the monster’s name." Those are two separate statements. It is entirely possible based on that that none of the listed things are game statistics.
Do you have an alternative working theory on what is and isn't a game statistic? Because, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you read like you're rejecting the rules glossary in favor of a yet unspecified thing.
Do you have an alternative working theory on what is and isn't a game statistic? Because, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you read like you're rejecting the rules glossary in favor of a yet unspecified thing.
I'm saying the term 'game statistics' isn't clearly defined. I'm rejecting the rules glossary because it does not define or list game statistics. All it does is imply certain things might be game statistics.
If you don’t know where I am, I’m either sleeping or roleplaying. If I’m doing neither of those things, except the worst. (Do not actually expect the worst) If you need to talk then PM me. Head Acolyte of The Tree Cult.
Ultimately, the past 2 pages shows exactly how there is confusion with the WS rules (and there has been confusion for the last decade) in regards to Proficiency Bonus. They should have been more clear in the updated rules because they know this has been a question since 5e started. RAW, a Druid in WS uses the beasts PB for attack rolls since nothing in the WS rules allow for using their own PB for attack rolls. This doesn't make sense from a design perspective, especially for Moon Druids considering they upped the damage output for WS attacks with both the level 7 Druid feature and the level 14 Moon Druid Feature.
Just play the way you want. I'm playing a druid now. From a desert tribe. I shapeshift in a fennec fox if I want to, phb or not. Look at everything as a baseline and build upon it.
Ultimately, the past 2 pages shows exactly how there is confusion with the WS rules (and there has been confusion for the last decade) in regards to Proficiency Bonus. They should have been more clear in the updated rules because they know this has been a question since 5e started. RAW, a Druid in WS uses the beasts PB for attack rolls since nothing in the WS rules allow for using their own PB for attack rolls. This doesn't make sense from a design perspective, especially for Moon Druids considering they upped the damage output for WS attacks with both the level 7 Druid feature and the level 14 Moon Druid Feature.
Yes, they should have left the bread in the oven a bit longer. This is what happens when the corporate heads force rush jobs on the designers.
No. what it does, is once again, favours the DM as every single rule change seems to. It’s just make things easier for the DM
I despise the above attitude.
It is far harder to find a GM than to find a player.
While I agree with you, Wren, I think there is something to be said for balance. Too much steamlining in favor the of DM destroys the potential creative aspects of the game. We can see this clearly in WotC's decision to nerf the Command spell (getting rid of options beyond what is a small list in the PHB), attempt to limit the Druid Wildshape ability by making it resemble the Ranger BM beast stat block (this only failed due to player uproar), and their clear disdain for Primal conjuration spells. The creative portions of the game are what most clearly distinguish the tabletop RPG from a CPRG. Did the Druid (esp. Moon) need some rework? Yes. But WotC has complelety reshaped the class with their tweaks, some for the better and some for the worse.
The rules about Wild Shape and proficiency bonus are rather clear I think.
You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast's stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.
Wild Shape does state specifically where you use your own Proficiency Bonus, in skills and saving throws, not attack rolls. If Proficiency Bonus of the Druid was to be used for all their statistics, then the above sentence wouldn't be needed.
You also use your own Proficiency Bonus only on skills and saving throws that YOU are proficient in, not in the skills the creature is proficient in.
Is Proficiency Bonus not a class feature?
Proficiency Bonus is not a class feature, no. Player characters' Proficiency Bonuses are not defined by any aspect of their class, but by their total character level. Proficiency Bonuses for creatures who don't have levels are calculated based on their Challenge Rating, which also has nothing to do with classes.
pronouns: he/she/they
Why isn't Proficiency Bonus a class feature, when it's expressly on the table of every class' class features?
Is your Level not a class feature? I understand how there's a column labeled Class Features, but some on. Spellcasting doesn't work without knowing your Level and Proficiency Bonus, and they're found on a table under the heading Druid Class Features.
A level 9 Druid (Circle of the Moon) still needs their Druid Level to cast Mass Cure Wounds while using Wild Shape in their Circle Forms. And if that is retained, because there's no "Level" exception, then so must the Proficiency Bonus.
To sum up, I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features.
P.S.
Here's something else I found under Ability Scores and Backgrounds, which I hope bolster's my argument in your eyes.
Proficiency Bonus is derived from your character level, and your character level is not a class feature.
In your example, imagine your level 9 Druid is also a level 6 Cleric. What is their Proficiency Bonus? If it's a class feature, you need to look at either the Druid table (which would say it's +4) or the Cleric table (which would say it's +3). Which is it?
The answer is: neither, because Proficiency Bonus isn't defined by your class, it's defined by your character level, and the Proficiency Bonus for a level 15 character is +5.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm going to be charitable and assume you missed the P.S. above.
You dodged the question I raised by presenting your own. That's not how this works. If you let something go unchallenged, it stands. To wit:
And you just let that one run away from you.
Level and Proficiency Bonus have their own columns on the features table. Spellcasting falls under a column explicitly labeled "Class Features," and it is dependent on other columns to function. If those other columns don't count as class features, then you are proposing that Spellcasting itself is broken and unusable while in a Wild Shape; even for Circle of the Moon. I don't know if you're implying the PB for Spellcasting is replaced by the PB associated with the chosen Wild Shape, but I'm assuming you are. Which would mean, in many circumstances, a reduced spell attack roll for Starry Wisp and a reduced Spell Save DC for Moonbeam.
And without a Level, the druid can't even have spells prepared.
As for the point you raised, Multiclassing is an exception to the general rule of a character with a single class. Such characters are instructed to refer to the Character Advancement Table, and they retain all their class features when they Wild Shape; including their Cleric ones. Class features are class features; regardless of how many classes your character has.
Okay. Have a nice day.
pronouns: he/she/they
Allow me to humor you. In order to refute your point that "I'm saying that things you aren't counting as class features are, in fact, class features." Wait. That's just a statement.
Your only somewhat valid point of contention is that spellcasting should use the new form's PB if the rules exist. This is somewhat vague, but I believe that spell attack rolls and save DCs are part of the spellcasting feature and should be unaffected.
Your next point makes no sense. Spellcasting is a feature and is therefore allowed in wildshape (as a moon druid, where the specific restriction is lifted).
Here's what it says when it instructs you to look at the advancement table:
If that can't convince you, nothing will.
You haven't said anything new.
What defines a class feature? Is it only things listed under that column in every class' features table, or is it everything listed in the class' feature table? For example.
And then we have the aforementioned table, which lists the following from left to right.
Is your class level a class feature? Is a prepared spell a class feature?
As I stated on a previous page, game statistics do not include the Proficiency Bonus. A monster uses its Challenge Rating to determine its PB, but a character uses its Character Level. A character's PB is first shown on the Character Advancement table, but it's also repeated on every class' feature table. Since it isn't a game statistic, it isn't something replaced by the new form, and a character in a Wild Shape doesn't lose their class levels.
Or is the claim that a Humanoid Druid in a Wild Shape is a CR X Humanoid?
This might shock you, but I've asked these question before and nobody replied with an answer.
Let's break this down.
I think the only one of those that is class features, is class features.
If the PB is not part of game statistics, why is it in stat blocks? example
Because it isn't listed as a statistic in the Rules Glossary.
The closest it comes is by making it a derivative of something else, but it isn't listed as its own statistic.
I went over this already on a prior page.
"A stat block contains the game statistics of a monster. Each stat block includes the following information presented after the monster’s name." Those are two separate statements. It is entirely possible based on that that none of the listed things are game statistics.
Do you have an alternative working theory on what is and isn't a game statistic? Because, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you read like you're rejecting the rules glossary in favor of a yet unspecified thing.
I'm saying the term 'game statistics' isn't clearly defined. I'm rejecting the rules glossary because it does not define or list game statistics. All it does is imply certain things might be game statistics.
In my opinion both are fine, but if your a DM just combine the parts you like from each version for a new class.
Lightning flashes, it creates ash. The ash forms a human.
If you don’t know where I am, I’m either sleeping or roleplaying. If I’m doing neither of those things, except the worst. (Do not actually expect the worst) If you need to talk then PM me. Head Acolyte of The Tree Cult.
I despise the above attitude.
It is far harder to find a GM than to find a player.
Ultimately, the past 2 pages shows exactly how there is confusion with the WS rules (and there has been confusion for the last decade) in regards to Proficiency Bonus. They should have been more clear in the updated rules because they know this has been a question since 5e started. RAW, a Druid in WS uses the beasts PB for attack rolls since nothing in the WS rules allow for using their own PB for attack rolls. This doesn't make sense from a design perspective, especially for Moon Druids considering they upped the damage output for WS attacks with both the level 7 Druid feature and the level 14 Moon Druid Feature.
Just play the way you want. I'm playing a druid now. From a desert tribe. I shapeshift in a fennec fox if I want to, phb or not. Look at everything as a baseline and build upon it.
Yes, they should have left the bread in the oven a bit longer. This is what happens when the corporate heads force rush jobs on the designers.
While I agree with you, Wren, I think there is something to be said for balance. Too much steamlining in favor the of DM destroys the potential creative aspects of the game. We can see this clearly in WotC's decision to nerf the Command spell (getting rid of options beyond what is a small list in the PHB), attempt to limit the Druid Wildshape ability by making it resemble the Ranger BM beast stat block (this only failed due to player uproar), and their clear disdain for Primal conjuration spells. The creative portions of the game are what most clearly distinguish the tabletop RPG from a CPRG. Did the Druid (esp. Moon) need some rework? Yes. But WotC has complelety reshaped the class with their tweaks, some for the better and some for the worse.
The rules about Wild Shape and proficiency bonus are rather clear I think.
Wild Shape does state specifically where you use your own Proficiency Bonus, in skills and saving throws, not attack rolls. If Proficiency Bonus of the Druid was to be used for all their statistics, then the above sentence wouldn't be needed.
You also use your own Proficiency Bonus only on skills and saving throws that YOU are proficient in, not in the skills the creature is proficient in.