The biggest actual nerfs to druids are gatekeeping the multiple summoning spells and not allowing enough elemental nukes or spells.
The best caster version of a druid is still inferior to valor bard who is supposed to be a jack of all trades.
one of those trades is, be better at casting then the master of primal magic,
on top of also being able to use all of their spells.
Bard is probably the best caster in the game, Druid being the worst full caster just makes it more obvious. And the Bard gets more class abilities on top of it.
ya I keep hearing the terrible argument "well druid is supposed to be for support" which to is mind boggling this isn't wow druids are nature themed casters they should have multiple play options. also bard destroys this whole argument because they can have everything and be better support on top of it.
I suppose it depends what's meant by "support caster". Druids are very good healers, good at battlefield control, and top tier summoners but they don't do much that buffs other characters or debuffs enemies. It's a fairly unique set of spells/class abilities which no other class has, but how much that makes it a "support caster" is debatable. There are certainly a couple of classes (Bard and Cleric) that are much, much betteer at providing support to their allies.
Everybody is talking about the moon druid, but what about the land druid? In the 2014 player's handbook, it was the spellcasting subclass. It was obviously worse than the moon druid, but it kind of did its job. Now, they gave a mediocre ability that does 4d6 aoe damage - at level 17! (when you get it at level three, it's 2d6) It is clear that the land druid is supposed to be the support druid now. You may ask, "Then what subclass is the spellcasting druid?" None of them! We have a weird gimmicky subclass, and what I think is supposed to be a tank. Now, I would compare the land druid ability to fireball or lightning bolt, but guess what? Druids don't get those spells! WoTC keeps talking about "class fantasy", and mine is obviously, as a wielder of primal magic, repeatedly casting cure wounds as the wizard shoots lightning. They gave druids revivify, but not lightning bolt! In conclusion, if you want to play as a primal magic user, WoTC thinks you should play as a sorcerer.
Druids do need a buff especially to spell choice in particular elemental nukes . druids are supposed to command elemental destruction but have less elemental attacks then wizard and bard .
for bard especially its frustrating they literally can use any cool spell of the other 3 . Why don't we have any unique druid nukes outside of moonbeam which was nerfed? they don't have many electric or thunder damage you get call lighting and ThunderWave which is about it .
only sea gets shatter.no storm sphere, no thunder step, fireball(only land), lightning bolt(only Land). I cant think of a single elemental nuke that a druid has that everyone else doesn't have, and to any one who say oh well they are supposed to heal get your W.O.W. thinking out of here that's not how dnd works,
and even if it did your argument lacks merit because bard. druids get heals and wizards get godlike utility and simulacrum and can even use any druid spell if they want to wish, which druid cannot do.
Everybody is talking about the moon druid, but what about the land druid? In the 2014 player's handbook, it was the spellcasting subclass. It was obviously worse than the moon druid, but it kind of did its job. Now, they gave a mediocre ability that does 4d6 aoe damage - at level 17! (when you get it at level three, it's 2d6) It is clear that the land druid is supposed to be the support druid now. You may ask, "Then what subclass is the spellcasting druid?" None of them! We have a weird gimmicky subclass, and what I think is supposed to be a tank. Now, I would compare the land druid ability to fireball or lightning bolt, but guess what? Druids don't get those spells! WoTC keeps talking about "class fantasy", and mine is obviously, as a wielder of primal magic, repeatedly casting cure wounds as the wizard shoots lightning. They gave druids revivify, but not lightning bolt! In conclusion, if you want to play as a primal magic user, WoTC thinks you should play as a sorcerer.
Everybody is talking about the moon druid, but what about the land druid? In the 2014 player's handbook, it was the spellcasting subclass. It was obviously worse than the moon druid, but it kind of did its job. Now, they gave a mediocre ability that does 4d6 aoe damage - at level 17! (when you get it at level three, it's 2d6) It is clear that the land druid is supposed to be the support druid now. You may ask, "Then what subclass is the spellcasting druid?" None of them! We have a weird gimmicky subclass, and what I think is supposed to be a tank. Now, I would compare the land druid ability to fireball or lightning bolt, but guess what? Druids don't get those spells! WoTC keeps talking about "class fantasy", and mine is obviously, as a wielder of primal magic, repeatedly casting cure wounds as the wizard shoots lightning. They gave druids revivify, but not lightning bolt! In conclusion, if you want to play as a primal magic user, WoTC thinks you should play as a sorcerer.
I agree with this. I do not hate wizard but don't wish to play one that doesn't mean i should be banned from using primal magic to break my foes with the elements . druids cantrips are most of the time stuck at d8s also produce flame sucks biggly. druid casting is in need of a rehaul especially with bard having their lunch for free. If people want to argue arcane magics should be mostly for the arcane casters I would agree but not elemental nukes . pathfinder does this better in terms of casting flavor . I prefer the 5e system but wish they would take some class inspiration from pathfinder.
Druids do need a buff especially to spell choice in particular elemental nukes . druids are supposed to command elemental destruction but have less elemental attacks then wizard and bard .
for bard especially its frustrating they literally can use any cool spell of the other 3 . Why don't we have any unique druid nukes outside of moonbeam which was nerfed? they don't have many electric or thunder damage you get call lighting and ThunderWave which is about it .
only sea gets shatter.no storm sphere, no thunder step, fireball(only land), lightning bolt(only Land). I cant think of a single elemental nuke that a druid has that everyone else doesn't have, and to any one who say oh well they are supposed to heal get your W.O.W. thinking out of here that's not how dnd works,
and even if it did your argument lacks merit because bard. druids get heals and wizards get godlike utility and simulacrum and can even use any druid spell if they want to wish, which druid cannot do.
I think every class other than wizard and bard needed a wider range of spells on their lists. Sure let the wizard list be the biggest. But they made a lot of lists crap whether by accident or on purpose I don't know, and in many cases they may fit a class just as well if not better than classes that got it. Warlock is my favorite class and it is absolutely baffling bestow curse is not on their list for example.
honestly I'd like to see opposition schools come back for specialist Wizards, but we know that will never happen.
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honestly I'd like to see opposition schools come back for specialist Wizards, but we know that will never happen.
I think there is a conscious design choice in 5e to remove negatives. The consequences from character design choices is just one thing is more good than the other instead of there is good and bad with this choice. I'm an old man who grew up on games where being saddled with penalties was the norm in character design so it doesn't sit right with me, but games evolve.
Oh I get it. The problem as I see it is that Wizards are a bit too good, and spell selection is why. Opposition schools is a fix for that problem. I rather like many of my penalties because they make for more interesting characters.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The land Druid does get fireball and lightning bolt and cone of cold and most powerfull dmg dealing elemental spells, and a lot more. It is a very potent spellcaster, being able to switch their always prepared spell lists each day. Those spell lists are all very good too. Way better than it was in 2014, imho.
The land Druid does get fireball and lightning bolt and cone of cold and most powerfull dmg dealing elemental spells, and a lot more. It is a very potent spellcaster, being able to switch their always prepared spell lists each day. Those spell lists are all very good too. Way better than it was in 2014, imho.
100% this ^^^. Druids can now be Wardens, giving them medium armor and martial weapons, so now they can enter melee for the first time without fear of easily (being hit and) dying. All of the close range cantrips/spells like Poison Spray or touch spells like Blight can now be delivered while a druid is in melee. Circle of the Land druids have increased their number of accessible spells from 6 spells to 24, many of which are not on the druids spell list like Misty Step, Lightning Bolt, and Fireball. This is a massive upgrade to druids. Imagine Land Warden with the option to cast fireball (or cone of cold, or lighting bolt depending on the day) or enter melee casting Shillelagh as a bonus action, with conjure minor elementals (damage increases by 2d8 for each level above 4th). Or just sitting outside of melee casting Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc.
The land Druid does get fireball and lightning bolt and cone of cold and most powerfull dmg dealing elemental spells, and a lot more. It is a very potent spellcaster, being able to switch their always prepared spell lists each day. Those spell lists are all very good too. Way better than it was in 2014, imho.
100% this ^^^. Druids can now be Wardens, giving them medium armor and martial weapons, so now they can enter melee for the first time without fear of easily (being hit and) dying. All of the close range cantrips/spells like Poison Spray or touch spells like Blight can now be delivered while a druid is in melee. Circle of the Land druids have increased their number of accessible spells from 6 spells to 24, many of which are not on the druids spell list like Misty Step, Lightning Bolt, and Fireball. This is a massive upgrade to druids. Imagine Land Warden with the option to cast fireball (or cone of cold, or lighting bolt depending on the day) or enter melee casting Shillelagh as a bonus action, with conjure minor elementals (damage increases by 2d8 for each level above 4th). Or just sitting outside of melee casting Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc.
First of all, while it is true that you can change your land every day, there are only four now, so there are less options. Also, sure they do have good spells, but this is only one subclass and even they have to forgo other useful spells to get what should be a core part of their identity. Finally these, as you're calling them, "accessible spells" are mostly spells that should already be on the druid spell list. (I would like to semantically point out that they cannot "...just sit outside of melee casting Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc.", you have to pick one, per long rest.)
Finally these, as you're calling them, "accessible spells" are mostly spells that should already be on the druid spell list.
So, you would want to be able to, say, pick the moon circle and still get all those elemental spells if I read you correctly?
Druids are already very strong (and were too stong in 2014, arguably), so having a subclass for the elemental caster archetype and another one for the potent shapeshifter archetype makes sense. Giving all druids all those spells on their spell list would be too much, imho. By the same logic, why not give all druids all the benefits of the moon circle also? Shapeshifting is also a "core part of their identity" after all.
Spellcasting and shapeshifting are both parts of the core druid. The subclasses do what they should, they let you pick the part of the core class you want to be better at. At some point, you need to think about game balance. If you want the option to be a very strong elemental caster, you have one, but if you want to have all the benefits of being a moon druid and add to that all those spells, that's too much power creep, imho. And even tough you need to make that choice, you are still playing a top tier class.
As for the fact that the circle of the land druid needs to choose a certain list every day, I'm fine with it. They still get to prepare the spells they want from their core list. Also, it is still more flexibility than a Cleric, a Warlock or a Sorcerer who can not change their subclass spell lists, and much more flexibility than any Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock will ever get, only being able to change one prepared spell from their lists once a level. Finally, even with only 4 land types, you still get 24 extra spells, all very solid ones, out of the feature. Clerics domains, Sorcerer subclasses and Warlock's Patrons only grant 10.
The druid is in a very good position in the 2024 PHB. It is still a stellar class, and the subclasses are way better balanced than they were in 2014, where Moon Druids were ranking so much above the other subclasses that any player, if looking only for the optimal choice without roleplaying entering into the balance, was picking it.
They are saying without picking a sub class the druid should have more elemental damage spells on their list than they were given. And I tend to agree, the core list for non wizards universally are smaller than they should be. I am not opposed to wizards having the broadest list, but they overly narrowed everyone else's lists far too much in comparison.
Finally these, as you're calling them, "accessible spells" are mostly spells that should already be on the druid spell list.
So, you would want to be able to, say, pick the moon circle and still get all those elemental spells if I read you correctly?
Druids are already very strong (and were too stong in 2014, arguably), so having a subclass for the elemental caster archetype and another one for the potent shapeshifter archetype makes sense. Giving all druids all those spells on their spell list would be too much, imho. By the same logic, why not give all druids all the benefits of the moon circle also? Shapeshifting is also a "core part of their identity" after all.
Spellcasting and shapeshifting are both parts of the core druid. The subclasses do what they should, they let you pick the part of the core class you want to be better at. At some point, you need to think about game balance. If you want the option to be a very strong elemental caster, you have one, but if you want to have all the benefits of being a moon druid and add to that all those spells, that's too much power creep, imho. And even tough you need to make that choice, you are still playing a top tier class.
As for the fact the circle of the land druid needs to choose a certain list every day, I'm fine with it. They still get to prepare the spells they want from their core list. Also, it is still more flexibility than a Cleric, a Warlock or a Sorcerer who can not change their subclass spell lists, and much more flexibility than any Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock will ever get, only being able to change one prepared spell from their lists once a level. Finally, even with only 4 land types, you still get 24 extra spells, all very solid ones, out of the feature. Clerics domains, Sorcerer subclasses and Warlock's Patrons only grant 10.
The druid is in a very good position in the 2024 PHB. It is still a stellar class, and the subclasses are way better balanced than they were in 2014, where Moon Druids were ranking so much above the other subclasses that any player, if looking only for the optimal choice without roleplaying entering into the balance, was picking it.
The difference between these spells and the moon druid's enhanced wildshape is that, while no other classes get wildshape, sorcerers and wizards have these spells on their spell list. Half of my point was that the new circle of the land is unfocused, as it has good spells, but weird support abilities. Also, while this system allows land druids more flexibility than sorcerers, but with their spell books and gigantic spell list, however, wizards have more flexibility by far. Furthermore, you're talking about power creep with the druid!?? This has been the least popular class (dev update) and significantly weaker than the bard for the past ten years! I never said that the balance of the subclasses isn't better now, but the redefinition of the land subclass means there is no real elemental subclass.
Quote from Jurmondur>>Also, while this system allows land druids more flexibility than sorcerers, but with their spell books and gigantic spell list, however, wizards have more flexibility by far. Furthermore, you're talking about power creep with the druid!?? This has been the least popular class (dev update) and significantly weaker than the bard for the past ten years! I never said that the balance of the subclasses isn't better now, but the redefinition of the land subclass means there is no real elemental subclass.
I do hope Wizards have more flexibility! They do not get metamagic or shapeshifting or bardic inspiration, versatility is the defining feature of their spellcasting!
Also, the Devs said, when analyzing the feedback from OneDnD that the druid was less popular, not because it was less powerfull, but because it was (rightly) seen as overly complicated to play.
I also do not get what your last sentence means. The land circle is the elemental caster subclass. Having the list you choose each day always prepared is also stronger than putting the spells in the core spell list for them, because it means you can prepare more spells and are more versatile.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree here, because having both played a druid for a long time and been a DM with druids players, I think the 2014 moon druid was way too powerfull and could outrogue the rogue and ranger at exploration, compete with other spellcasters for utility and control, ruin encounters when in the hand of a crafty player with wildshape giving hundreds of free HP, and was way too complicated to play for a new player. I once introduced a new player to 5e who wanted to play a moon druid, and handed him over 15 pages of statblocks for wildshape in order to speed up gameplay and forego searching the MM every encounter and even then, it was an analysis paralysis festival.
I also think the 2014 land druid was a very poor caster when compared to the 2024 version.
I do not think I will be able to convince you that the 2024 druid is a top tier class, and that's ok. Just do not play one if you do not like the class, there are plenty other options for an elemental caster, be it a sorcerer or a wizard.
Also, I agree the bard is better. It is also better than the cleric, the warlock, the wizard and the sorcerer. ;-)
Quote from Jurmondur>>Also, while this system allows land druids more flexibility than sorcerers, but with their spell books and gigantic spell list, however, wizards have more flexibility by far. Furthermore, you're talking about power creep with the druid!?? This has been the least popular class (dev update) and significantly weaker than the bard for the past ten years! I never said that the balance of the subclasses isn't better now, but the redefinition of the land subclass means there is no real elemental subclass.
I do hope Wizards have more flexibility! They do not get metamagic or shapeshifting or bardic inspiration, versatility is the defining feature of their spellcasting!
Also, the Devs said, when analyzing the feedback from OneDnD that the druid was less popular, not because it was less powerfull, but because it was (rightly) seen as overly complicated to play.
I also do not get what your last sentence means. The land circle is the elemental caster subclass. Having the list you choose each day always prepared is also stronger than putting the spells in the core spell list for them, because it means you can prepare more spells and are more versatile.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree here, because having both played a druid for a long time and been a DM with druids players, I think the 2014 moon druid was way too powerfull and could outrogue the rogue and ranger at exploration, compete with other spellcasters for utility and control, ruin encounters when in the hand of a crafty player with wildshape giving hundreds of free HP, and was way too complicated to play for a new player. I once introduced a new player to 5e who wanted to play a moon druid, and handed him over 15 pages of statblocks for wildshape in order to speed up gameplay and forego searching the MM every encounter and even then, it was an analysis paralysis festival.
I also think the 2014 land druid was a very poor caster when compared to the 2024 version.
I do not think I will be able to convince you that the 2024 druid is a top tier class, and that's ok. Just do not play one if you do not like the class, there are plenty other options for an elemental caster, be it a sorcerer or a wizard.
Also, I agree the bard is better. It is also better than the cleric, the warlock, the wizard and the sorcerer. ;-)
The reason I said "...no real elemental subclass" is because most of the subclass features are unrelated to elemental magic or spellcasting. Also when saying that the druid has been weak, I was not talking about the broken subclass I acknowledge has been correctly nerfed. The druid is my favorite class, and you are literally supporting my point that other classes are better elemental spellcasters.
You will have to explain to me what is a real elemental subclass for you if 24 (mostly) elemental spells, elemental damage resistance you can later grant to your allies and spell recovery is not enough to be considered one. Is it because one of their abilities is a healing one?
You will have to explain to me what is a real elemental subclass for you if 24 (mostly) elemental spells, elemental damage resistance you can later grant to your allies and spell recovery is not enough to be considered one. Is it because one of their abilities is a healing one?
Granted, I should've wrote spellcasting subclass, as was my intent. However, lands aid is not elemental (a missed opportunity). Also, while natures ward is elemental themed, it is very weak, and I imagine would very rarely come into play. Finally, nature's sanctuary is only tangentially elemental, with the resistance being only one of its effects. Spell recovery, at least, is good.
Nature's sanctuary seems quite potent to me. The defense advantage is obvious, but it also opens up very interresting offensive possibilities.
Yes, you need an action to put it up, but after that you have a 15 foot cube zone that you can move as a bonus action and that grants half cover and an elemental resistance of your choice (tied to the spell list you have prepared for the day) to your allies (and not ennemies) in the zone, no concentration needed?
The only other power I can think of that lets you hurl a fireball in the middle of the combat zone is sculpt spell, and resistance is better than auto-success on the save, as your allies do not only take half dmg, but can take 1/4 dmg if they do save. Because of the half cover, they also get +2 on their dex saves against your fireball.
Natural recovery not only let you recover a spell, but also cast one spell of your daily spell list for free, which is also good. One free spell per day is one free spell per day.
As for Land's Aid, it's thematic for this kind of druid to dabble into the life/death cycle, and having a source of healing or necrotic dmg can be good. Positive and negative energies are elemental energies in DnD, they are located, along the other elemental planes, in the inner planes. Thematically, it makes the land druid even more in touch with all of the elemental planes.
But, different perspectives I guess. I, for one, am very happy with the Land Druid. I still think it fits the bill of what makes an excellent elemental caster, and would happily play one without feeling left behind by the other spellcasting classes.
Changing the subject somewhat. I’ve said that I think the addition of Warden and improvement to sub classes like Circle of the Land are good buffs for the new Druid. That said, I’ve always thought there should be some class feature analogous to the cleric’s channel divinity, something like channel nature. Re comments above re incorporating more of the elemental forces into druids, one way could be cashed out is in terms of calling on nature’s elemental forces, etc. Could be similar to just summoning some elemental, where the CR varies by level. Would also think that channel nature would allow for some sort of healing.
I suppose it depends what's meant by "support caster". Druids are very good healers, good at battlefield control, and top tier summoners but they don't do much that buffs other characters or debuffs enemies. It's a fairly unique set of spells/class abilities which no other class has, but how much that makes it a "support caster" is debatable. There are certainly a couple of classes (Bard and Cleric) that are much, much betteer at providing support to their allies.
Everybody is talking about the moon druid, but what about the land druid? In the 2014 player's handbook, it was the spellcasting subclass. It was obviously worse than the moon druid, but it kind of did its job. Now, they gave a mediocre ability that does 4d6 aoe damage - at level 17! (when you get it at level three, it's 2d6) It is clear that the land druid is supposed to be the support druid now. You may ask, "Then what subclass is the spellcasting druid?" None of them! We have a weird gimmicky subclass, and what I think is supposed to be a tank. Now, I would compare the land druid ability to fireball or lightning bolt, but guess what? Druids don't get those spells! WoTC keeps talking about "class fantasy", and mine is obviously, as a wielder of primal magic, repeatedly casting cure wounds as the wizard shoots lightning. They gave druids revivify, but not lightning bolt! In conclusion, if you want to play as a primal magic user, WoTC thinks you should play as a sorcerer.
Druids do need a buff especially to spell choice in particular elemental nukes . druids are supposed to command elemental destruction but have less elemental attacks then wizard and bard .
for bard especially its frustrating they literally can use any cool spell of the other 3 . Why don't we have any unique druid nukes outside of moonbeam which was nerfed? they don't have many electric or thunder damage you get call lighting and ThunderWave which is about it .
only sea gets shatter.no storm sphere, no thunder step, fireball(only land), lightning bolt(only Land). I cant think of a single elemental nuke that a druid has that everyone else doesn't have, and to any one who say oh well they are supposed to heal get your W.O.W. thinking out of here that's not how dnd works,
and even if it did your argument lacks merit because bard. druids get heals and wizards get godlike utility and simulacrum and can even use any druid spell if they want to wish, which druid cannot do.
I agree with this. I do not hate wizard but don't wish to play one that doesn't mean i should be banned from using primal magic to break my foes with the elements . druids cantrips are most of the time stuck at d8s also produce flame sucks biggly. druid casting is in need of a rehaul especially with bard having their lunch for free. If people want to argue arcane magics should be mostly for the arcane casters I would agree but not elemental nukes . pathfinder does this better in terms of casting flavor . I prefer the 5e system but wish they would take some class inspiration from pathfinder.
I think every class other than wizard and bard needed a wider range of spells on their lists. Sure let the wizard list be the biggest. But they made a lot of lists crap whether by accident or on purpose I don't know, and in many cases they may fit a class just as well if not better than classes that got it. Warlock is my favorite class and it is absolutely baffling bestow curse is not on their list for example.
honestly I'd like to see opposition schools come back for specialist Wizards, but we know that will never happen.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think there is a conscious design choice in 5e to remove negatives. The consequences from character design choices is just one thing is more good than the other instead of there is good and bad with this choice. I'm an old man who grew up on games where being saddled with penalties was the norm in character design so it doesn't sit right with me, but games evolve.
Oh I get it. The problem as I see it is that Wizards are a bit too good, and spell selection is why. Opposition schools is a fix for that problem. I rather like many of my penalties because they make for more interesting characters.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Wait, what?
The land Druid does get fireball and lightning bolt and cone of cold and most powerfull dmg dealing elemental spells, and a lot more.
It is a very potent spellcaster, being able to switch their always prepared spell lists each day. Those spell lists are all very good too.
Way better than it was in 2014, imho.
100% this ^^^. Druids can now be Wardens, giving them medium armor and martial weapons, so now they can enter melee for the first time without fear of easily (being hit and) dying. All of the close range cantrips/spells like Poison Spray or touch spells like Blight can now be delivered while a druid is in melee. Circle of the Land druids have increased their number of accessible spells from 6 spells to 24, many of which are not on the druids spell list like Misty Step, Lightning Bolt, and Fireball. This is a massive upgrade to druids. Imagine Land Warden with the option to cast fireball (or cone of cold, or lighting bolt depending on the day) or enter melee casting Shillelagh as a bonus action, with conjure minor elementals (damage increases by 2d8 for each level above 4th). Or just sitting outside of melee casting Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
First of all, while it is true that you can change your land every day, there are only four now, so there are less options. Also, sure they do have good spells, but this is only one subclass and even they have to forgo other useful spells to get what should be a core part of their identity. Finally these, as you're calling them, "accessible spells" are mostly spells that should already be on the druid spell list. (I would like to semantically point out that they cannot "...just sit outside of melee casting Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc.", you have to pick one, per long rest.)
So, you would want to be able to, say, pick the moon circle and still get all those elemental spells if I read you correctly?
Druids are already very strong (and were too stong in 2014, arguably), so having a subclass for the elemental caster archetype and another one for the potent shapeshifter archetype makes sense. Giving all druids all those spells on their spell list would be too much, imho. By the same logic, why not give all druids all the benefits of the moon circle also? Shapeshifting is also a "core part of their identity" after all.
Spellcasting and shapeshifting are both parts of the core druid. The subclasses do what they should, they let you pick the part of the core class you want to be better at. At some point, you need to think about game balance. If you want the option to be a very strong elemental caster, you have one, but if you want to have all the benefits of being a moon druid and add to that all those spells, that's too much power creep, imho. And even tough you need to make that choice, you are still playing a top tier class.
As for the fact that the circle of the land druid needs to choose a certain list every day, I'm fine with it. They still get to prepare the spells they want from their core list. Also, it is still more flexibility than a Cleric, a Warlock or a Sorcerer who can not change their subclass spell lists, and much more flexibility than any Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock will ever get, only being able to change one prepared spell from their lists once a level. Finally, even with only 4 land types, you still get 24 extra spells, all very solid ones, out of the feature. Clerics domains, Sorcerer subclasses and Warlock's Patrons only grant 10.
The druid is in a very good position in the 2024 PHB. It is still a stellar class, and the subclasses are way better balanced than they were in 2014, where Moon Druids were ranking so much above the other subclasses that any player, if looking only for the optimal choice without roleplaying entering into the balance, was picking it.
They are saying without picking a sub class the druid should have more elemental damage spells on their list than they were given. And I tend to agree, the core list for non wizards universally are smaller than they should be. I am not opposed to wizards having the broadest list, but they overly narrowed everyone else's lists far too much in comparison.
The difference between these spells and the moon druid's enhanced wildshape is that, while no other classes get wildshape, sorcerers and wizards have these spells on their spell list. Half of my point was that the new circle of the land is unfocused, as it has good spells, but weird support abilities. Also, while this system allows land druids more flexibility than sorcerers, but with their spell books and gigantic spell list, however, wizards have more flexibility by far. Furthermore, you're talking about power creep with the druid!?? This has been the least popular class (dev update) and significantly weaker than the bard for the past ten years! I never said that the balance of the subclasses isn't better now, but the redefinition of the land subclass means there is no real elemental subclass.
I do hope Wizards have more flexibility! They do not get metamagic or shapeshifting or bardic inspiration, versatility is the defining feature of their spellcasting!
Also, the Devs said, when analyzing the feedback from OneDnD that the druid was less popular, not because it was less powerfull, but because it was (rightly) seen as overly complicated to play.
I also do not get what your last sentence means. The land circle is the elemental caster subclass. Having the list you choose each day always prepared is also stronger than putting the spells in the core spell list for them, because it means you can prepare more spells and are more versatile.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree here, because having both played a druid for a long time and been a DM with druids players, I think the 2014 moon druid was way too powerfull and could outrogue the rogue and ranger at exploration, compete with other spellcasters for utility and control, ruin encounters when in the hand of a crafty player with wildshape giving hundreds of free HP, and was way too complicated to play for a new player. I once introduced a new player to 5e who wanted to play a moon druid, and handed him over 15 pages of statblocks for wildshape in order to speed up gameplay and forego searching the MM every encounter and even then, it was an analysis paralysis festival.
I also think the 2014 land druid was a very poor caster when compared to the 2024 version.
I do not think I will be able to convince you that the 2024 druid is a top tier class, and that's ok. Just do not play one if you do not like the class, there are plenty other options for an elemental caster, be it a sorcerer or a wizard.
Also, I agree the bard is better. It is also better than the cleric, the warlock, the wizard and the sorcerer. ;-)
The reason I said "...no real elemental subclass" is because most of the subclass features are unrelated to elemental magic or spellcasting. Also when saying that the druid has been weak, I was not talking about the broken subclass I acknowledge has been correctly nerfed. The druid is my favorite class, and you are literally supporting my point that other classes are better elemental spellcasters.
You will have to explain to me what is a real elemental subclass for you if 24 (mostly) elemental spells, elemental damage resistance you can later grant to your allies and spell recovery is not enough to be considered one. Is it because one of their abilities is a healing one?
Granted, I should've wrote spellcasting subclass, as was my intent. However, lands aid is not elemental (a missed opportunity). Also, while natures ward is elemental themed, it is very weak, and I imagine would very rarely come into play. Finally, nature's sanctuary is only tangentially elemental, with the resistance being only one of its effects. Spell recovery, at least, is good.
Nature's sanctuary seems quite potent to me. The defense advantage is obvious, but it also opens up very interresting offensive possibilities.
Yes, you need an action to put it up, but after that you have a 15 foot cube zone that you can move as a bonus action and that grants half cover and an elemental resistance of your choice (tied to the spell list you have prepared for the day) to your allies (and not ennemies) in the zone, no concentration needed?
The only other power I can think of that lets you hurl a fireball in the middle of the combat zone is sculpt spell, and resistance is better than auto-success on the save, as your allies do not only take half dmg, but can take 1/4 dmg if they do save. Because of the half cover, they also get +2 on their dex saves against your fireball.
Natural recovery not only let you recover a spell, but also cast one spell of your daily spell list for free, which is also good. One free spell per day is one free spell per day.
As for Land's Aid, it's thematic for this kind of druid to dabble into the life/death cycle, and having a source of healing or necrotic dmg can be good. Positive and negative energies are elemental energies in DnD, they are located, along the other elemental planes, in the inner planes. Thematically, it makes the land druid even more in touch with all of the elemental planes.
But, different perspectives I guess. I, for one, am very happy with the Land Druid. I still think it fits the bill of what makes an excellent elemental caster, and would happily play one without feeling left behind by the other spellcasting classes.
Changing the subject somewhat. I’ve said that I think the addition of Warden and improvement to sub classes like Circle of the Land are good buffs for the new Druid. That said, I’ve always thought there should be some class feature analogous to the cleric’s channel divinity, something like channel nature. Re comments above re incorporating more of the elemental forces into druids, one way could be cashed out is in terms of calling on nature’s elemental forces, etc. Could be similar to just summoning some elemental, where the CR varies by level. Would also think that channel nature would allow for some sort of healing.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023