Time to talk about everybody's least favourite fighter feature. That's right. I mean indomitable. I mean a reroll can help, but indomitable is something that is really underwhelming and could be replaced by some awesome stuff. What are your thoughts on indomitable?
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Time to talk about everybody's least favourite fighter feature. That's right. I mean indomitable. I mean a reroll can help, but indomitable is something that is really underwhelming and could be replaced by some awesome stuff. What are your thoughts on indomitable?
I see indomitable as a weaker version of Legendary Resistance. Considering you get it at level 9, I feel giving the fighter actual legendary resistance would be too strong; however I could see the argument that by the time you get your second or third use of the feature it should upgrade to be an automatic success rather than a reroll (or maybe at least a reroll with advantage).
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Time to talk about everybody's least favourite fighter feature. That's right. I mean indomitable. I mean a reroll can help, but indomitable is something that is really underwhelming and could be replaced by some awesome stuff. What are your thoughts on indomitable?
Indomitable is better than what Monks or Barbarians get at 9, but worse than what Rogues get at 9, for reference. And it's worse than what Divine Soul Sorcerers get at 1, but that's normal - 5E front-loads a lot.
The biggest problem with Indomitable is that it doesn't give you any tools for knowing when it's worth spending. If you got to keep the use if you failed despite the re-roll, like Eloquence Bard Inspiration, I'd be much more likely to actually use it.
The thing is that Indomitable more or less addresses the major weakness of martial classes (with the sole exception of Paladin): “mental” saving throws.
You have respectable AC, good HP, probably good CON save and maybe even good DEX save if you go to that route. But most likely your other saves, specially WIS, will suck unless you get a feat or if you are a Samurai. So it’s good, not so reliable, but it can be a life saver. I think I would make it once per short rest like Action Surge.
And monks. They are martial classes with wisdom saving proficiency. Same as rangers. It's not like all warriors are fighters or barbarian:). But a samurai can cover all the major saving throws, plus a big minor one. I mean, when was the last time you made an intelligence or charisma saving throw? It's a single ASI, and fighters have 2 extra. Indomitable does have it's use though, its just not as cool or flashy as some other level 9 and 13 features.
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
The thing is that Indomitable more or less addresses the major weakness of martial classes (with the sole exception of Paladin): “mental” saving throws.
You have respectable AC, good HP, probably good CON save and maybe even good DEX save if you go to that route. But most likely your other saves, specially WIS, will suck unless you get a feat or if you are a Samurai. So it’s good, not so reliable, but it can be a life saver. I think I would make it once per short rest like Action Surge.
Why especially Wis? It has been my experience that many folks favor Wis over Int as they value Perception more than Investigation, and Insight is a convenient second bird for the one stone.
is a chart that should help: add wisdom saves to the strength + Dex/con saves that martial shave to start and they go from having a decent save less than half the time to over 50%- a major difference. Having a way to improve your chances of make all the saves you otherwise suck at is a major asset.
The Lucky feat is considered one of the strongest feats and most of the time is much better used on saves than ability checks or atttack rolls (at least on the fighter the face might want to really succeed on a persuasion roll at times) while you don't get three uses of indomitable until level 17 you have to declare you are using luck before you know if you have failed. Overall I would put indomitable worse than lucky but not massivly so.
Diamond soul essentially allows a monk to do the same as indomitable for the cost of a ki, and this is just a kicker after proficiency in all saves. I would however class diamond soul as one of if the the stroongest class feature in the game.
So yes indomitable is somewhat underwhelming compared with action surge or extra attack but all classes have features that less useful than others. A level after diamond sould a monk gets what amounts to protection against horrifying visage (and most DMs avoid using horrifying visage and if they do rule it has no mechanical effect)
The thing is that Indomitable more or less addresses the major weakness of martial classes (with the sole exception of Paladin): “mental” saving throws.
You have respectable AC, good HP, probably good CON save and maybe even good DEX save if you go to that route. But most likely your other saves, specially WIS, will suck unless you get a feat or if you are a Samurai. So it’s good, not so reliable, but it can be a life saver. I think I would make it once per short rest like Action Surge.
Why especially Wis? It has been my experience that many folks favor Wis over Int as they value Perception more than Investigation, and Insight is a convenient second bird for the one stone.
I’m not talking about Skills. I’m referring to saving throws. Most mind control, charm, frighten and similar effects target WIS. Failure means almost death to Fighters and the party. That’s why I value so much Resilient (WIS) and other abilities that improve mental resistance like Oath of Watchers channel divinity. INT saves are super dangerous as well, but definitely not as common.
I love Indomitable, it's like a lesser version of having legendary resistances; the main problem with it is that it doesn't feel quite strong enough for a full level feature, but then a bunch of classes have higher level features that aren't amazing. For example, Barbarian has Brutal Criticals which while not a bad feature, could do with a secondary bonus.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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The thing is that Indomitable more or less addresses the major weakness of martial classes (with the sole exception of Paladin): “mental” saving throws.
You have respectable AC, good HP, probably good CON save and maybe even good DEX save if you go to that route. But most likely your other saves, specially WIS, will suck unless you get a feat or if you are a Samurai. So it’s good, not so reliable, but it can be a life saver. I think I would make it once per short rest like Action Surge.
Why especially Wis? It has been my experience that many folks favor Wis over Int as they value Perception more than Investigation, and Insight is a convenient second bird for the one stone.
I’m not talking about Skills. I’m referring to saving throws. Most mind control, charm, frighten and similar effects target WIS. Failure means almost death to Fighters and the party. That’s why I value so much Resilient (WIS) and other abilities that improve mental resistance like Oath of Watchers channel divinity. INT saves are super dangerous as well, but definitely not as common.
I understood that you meant Saving Throws, I was saying that since they put a higher number in Wis than Int/Cha for the skills, they would by default have a higher bonus to Wis Saves as well. So their Wis save usually doesn’t “suck especially” compared to other mental saves, in fact it’s often the highest of the three. Your statement read as if Wis would be the lowest “…other saves, especially Wis, will suck…” and I was commenting that from my experience, Wis is usually the one that sucks the least (aka “has the highest bonus”) of the three mental stat saving throws.
You may have meant something different than what was stated, which is fine. That’s why I had asked for the clarification.
What? Indomitable kicks ass. Everybody loves Indomitable. Are people really not happy with it?
Yep, we love it and we're happy with it and yet it's arguably still "everybody's least favourite fighter feature" - well maybe not for everybody but at least for many.
You can get excited about your 1st lev fighter getting second wind, your 2nd level fighter getting action surge, your 3rd level fighter getting a Martial Archetype, your 4th level fighter getting an ASI or feat and your 5th level fighter getting an extra attack.
Sure, there may be 7th level archetype feats that aren't so great and, by the time you get to 9th level, an extra chance for a saving throw will likely be of more value than second wind - but it was that second wind that helped you all the way to get to 9th level.
Yep, we love Indomitable, but not with a first love type of love. By 9th level, we're more distracted by magic items.
I house-rule that Indomitable is legendary resistance. Only seems fair since advantage on saves against all magic is a zero-level feature for any gnome and a fighter's basically only getting that once per day at 9th level. One free pass on a save per day, three at the highest levels, is nowhere near broken. Have you seen the magic that gets thrown around at higher levels? Fighters with legendary resistance get to hold their own in that world just a teeny bit more and that's fine by me for someone who commits to a martial class without all the fancy reality-altering magic. It's not even more broken that Paladins giving everyone plus-whatever on all their saves. Simple change, makes your fighters feel better about fighting, and puts the fear of the blade into those enemy casters.
Indomitable is garbage. I fail a wisdom save that I'm terrible at and get to reroll and fail again? How exciting.
Two ways it could be fixed: - Give the fighter legendary resistance - I don't personally view this as remotely OP given all the power creep in casters.
- Let the fighter choose to reroll their Indomitable save using STR/CON regardless of what the initial save was. It's the epic resisting something with sheer physical prowess.
Also if it is going to work the way it does then change the name to something like "Maybe Indomitable and Maybe Not" ;)
The new version of Indomitable being playtested should make it a lot more popular, as it adds a bonus to the re-roll equal to your Fighter level(meaning that bonus STARTS at +9 and goes up), turning it into something that isn't quite Legendary Resistance but comes really close.
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Time to talk about everybody's least favourite fighter feature. That's right. I mean indomitable. I mean a reroll can help, but indomitable is something that is really underwhelming and could be replaced by some awesome stuff. What are your thoughts on indomitable?
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
I see indomitable as a weaker version of Legendary Resistance. Considering you get it at level 9, I feel giving the fighter actual legendary resistance would be too strong; however I could see the argument that by the time you get your second or third use of the feature it should upgrade to be an automatic success rather than a reroll (or maybe at least a reroll with advantage).
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I dunno, Indomitable has saved a lot of butts.
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Indomitable is better than what Monks or Barbarians get at 9, but worse than what Rogues get at 9, for reference. And it's worse than what Divine Soul Sorcerers get at 1, but that's normal - 5E front-loads a lot.
The biggest problem with Indomitable is that it doesn't give you any tools for knowing when it's worth spending. If you got to keep the use if you failed despite the re-roll, like Eloquence Bard Inspiration, I'd be much more likely to actually use it.
The thing is that Indomitable more or less addresses the major weakness of martial classes (with the sole exception of Paladin): “mental” saving throws.
You have respectable AC, good HP, probably good CON save and maybe even good DEX save if you go to that route. But most likely your other saves, specially WIS, will suck unless you get a feat or if you are a Samurai. So it’s good, not so reliable, but it can be a life saver. I think I would make it once per short rest like Action Surge.
And monks. They are martial classes with wisdom saving proficiency. Same as rangers. It's not like all warriors are fighters or barbarian:). But a samurai can cover all the major saving throws, plus a big minor one. I mean, when was the last time you made an intelligence or charisma saving throw? It's a single ASI, and fighters have 2 extra. Indomitable does have it's use though, its just not as cool or flashy as some other level 9 and 13 features.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Monks and Rangers are strength and Dex saves not wisdom. Yes both use wisdom for spells/Ki but they don’t get wisdom saves without a feat.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
What? Indomitable kicks ass. Everybody loves Indomitable. Are people really not happy with it?
Why especially Wis? It has been my experience that many folks favor Wis over Int as they value Perception more than Investigation, and Insight is a convenient second bird for the one stone.
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is a chart that should help: add wisdom saves to the strength + Dex/con saves that martial shave to start and they go from having a decent save less than half the time to over 50%- a major difference. Having a way to improve your chances of make all the saves you otherwise suck at is a major asset.
100%
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Compare indomitable with other similar features:
The Lucky feat is considered one of the strongest feats and most of the time is much better used on saves than ability checks or atttack rolls (at least on the fighter the face might want to really succeed on a persuasion roll at times) while you don't get three uses of indomitable until level 17 you have to declare you are using luck before you know if you have failed. Overall I would put indomitable worse than lucky but not massivly so.
Diamond soul essentially allows a monk to do the same as indomitable for the cost of a ki, and this is just a kicker after proficiency in all saves. I would however class diamond soul as one of if the the stroongest class feature in the game.
So yes indomitable is somewhat underwhelming compared with action surge or extra attack but all classes have features that less useful than others. A level after diamond sould a monk gets what amounts to protection against horrifying visage (and most DMs avoid using horrifying visage and if they do rule it has no mechanical effect)
I've had back luck with indominatble lol so It's been underwhelming for me so far.
But I'm sure, once I actually manage to use it to turn a failed save around isntead of just faling again, I'll love it.
I’m not talking about Skills. I’m referring to saving throws. Most mind control, charm, frighten and similar effects target WIS. Failure means almost death to Fighters and the party. That’s why I value so much Resilient (WIS) and other abilities that improve mental resistance like Oath of Watchers channel divinity. INT saves are super dangerous as well, but definitely not as common.
I love Indomitable, it's like a lesser version of having legendary resistances; the main problem with it is that it doesn't feel quite strong enough for a full level feature, but then a bunch of classes have higher level features that aren't amazing. For example, Barbarian has Brutal Criticals which while not a bad feature, could do with a secondary bonus.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I understood that you meant Saving Throws, I was saying that since they put a higher number in Wis than Int/Cha for the skills, they would by default have a higher bonus to Wis Saves as well. So their Wis save usually doesn’t “suck especially” compared to other mental saves, in fact it’s often the highest of the three. Your statement read as if Wis would be the lowest “…other saves, especially Wis, will suck…” and I was commenting that from my experience, Wis is usually the one that sucks the least (aka “has the highest bonus”) of the three mental stat saving throws.
You may have meant something different than what was stated, which is fine. That’s why I had asked for the clarification.
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Yep, we love it and we're happy with it and yet it's arguably still "everybody's least favourite fighter feature" - well maybe not for everybody but at least for many.
You can get excited about your 1st lev fighter getting second wind, your 2nd level fighter getting action surge, your 3rd level fighter getting a Martial Archetype, your 4th level fighter getting an ASI or feat and your 5th level fighter getting an extra attack.
Sure, there may be 7th level archetype feats that aren't so great and, by the time you get to 9th level, an extra chance for a saving throw will likely be of more value than second wind - but it was that second wind that helped you all the way to get to 9th level.
Yep, we love Indomitable, but not with a first love type of love. By 9th level, we're more distracted by magic items.
I house-rule that Indomitable is legendary resistance. Only seems fair since advantage on saves against all magic is a zero-level feature for any gnome and a fighter's basically only getting that once per day at 9th level. One free pass on a save per day, three at the highest levels, is nowhere near broken. Have you seen the magic that gets thrown around at higher levels? Fighters with legendary resistance get to hold their own in that world just a teeny bit more and that's fine by me for someone who commits to a martial class without all the fancy reality-altering magic. It's not even more broken that Paladins giving everyone plus-whatever on all their saves. Simple change, makes your fighters feel better about fighting, and puts the fear of the blade into those enemy casters.
Indomitable is garbage. I fail a wisdom save that I'm terrible at and get to reroll and fail again? How exciting.
Two ways it could be fixed:
- Give the fighter legendary resistance - I don't personally view this as remotely OP given all the power creep in casters.
- Let the fighter choose to reroll their Indomitable save using STR/CON regardless of what the initial save was. It's the epic resisting something with sheer physical prowess.
Also if it is going to work the way it does then change the name to something like "Maybe Indomitable and Maybe Not" ;)
Not to mention that Zealot barbs get the same feature 3 levels earlier than fighters do (Fanatical Focus at 6th).
The new version of Indomitable being playtested should make it a lot more popular, as it adds a bonus to the re-roll equal to your Fighter level(meaning that bonus STARTS at +9 and goes up), turning it into something that isn't quite Legendary Resistance but comes really close.