Yes, I understand that, and why you made them, I'm just saying that we can't base the discussion around these.
Just like we cant base a discussion on DM discretion, Mephista. Especially with not real grapple rules like mine no matter how balanced since they’re not RAW.
Yes, I understand that, and why you made them, I'm just saying that we can't base the discussion around these.
Just like we cant base a discussion on DM discretion, Mephista. Especially with not real grapple rules like mine no matter how balanced since they’re not RAW.
So yeah the only option is for the fighter deal over assuming 18 con: 162 hp in one round against an AC of 24 (I’m a hobgoblin: Mage armor + 18 Dex + A Shield + The Shield Spell).
divination wizard just hands the fighter a lower initiative roll and himself a higher one, goes first and can leave the fight if he wishes, or cast invulnerability and then checks to see if the fighter has more healing potions than he has blast spells, or maybe just uses one of the many spell combos that result in a sure loss.
so diviner always wins
outside that, I guess it could go either way depending on rolls and features like lucky, contingency, existing clones, starting range etc.
divination wizard just hands the fighter a lower initiative roll and himself a higher one, goes first and can leave the fight if he wishes, or cast invulnerability and then checks to see if the fighter has more healing potions than he has blast spells, or maybe just uses one of the many spell combos that result in a sure loss.
so diviner always wins
outside that, I guess it could go either way depending on rolls and features like lucky, contingency, existing clones, starting range etc.
1st point:
”divination wizard just hands the fighter a lower initiative roll and himself a higher one”
Answer: A divination Wizard can use a portent only once per turn so you could give yourself an higher roll and the fighter a lower roll. Though a Chronurgist could auto win the initiative.
2nd point:
“goes first and can leave the fight if he wishes, or cast invulnerability and then checks to see if the fighter has more healing potions than he has blast spells, or maybe just uses one of the many spell combos that result in a sure loss.”
Answer: You can’t leave the fight. There is no magic items. And yes the Wizard does have powerful spells.
3rd point:
”so diviner always wins”
Answer: No because like discussed before portent isn’t a guarantee its numbers are randomized so you could just get like three 10’s and be sad.
4th point:
”outside that, I guess it could go either way depending on rolls and features like lucky, contingency, existing clones, starting range etc.“
Answer: No as a Chronurgist you win no matter what. Why you may ask well, the Chronurgist uses Convergent future to go first with whatever roll is needed to go first then he uses Forcecage (No save) or Invulnerability (invincible). Also there’s no prep ie contingency, clones, and the starting range is 30ft.
Final Note: Chronurgist or Divination are the best subclasses.
They're not the "best" subclasses, but they are the best for taking on the fighter one on one at this level.
Just a quick correction.
Yes, they automatically win in order to get high enough initiative to go first, and then cast Invulnerability, and just immediately blast the Fighter to death.
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They're not the "best" subclasses, but they are the best for taking on the fighter one on one at this level.
Just a quick correction.
Yes, they automatically win in order to get high enough initiative to go first, and then cast Invulnerability, and just immediately blast the Fighter to death.
That’s why they are the best. Also with the Chronurgist their ability Momentary stasis stops grappling since it’s not a spell (No components) and it incapacitates The grappler ending the grappler.
When I think about it Chronurgist is the best against the fighter wizard with having rerolls an auto win/fail, a hold type person and a bonus to initiative along with other things that are just a party helper out of the battle.
Though the downfalls are the features use reactions compared to the divinations Wizard who doesn’t.
I think you guys are REALLY badly underestimating the Wizard in this scenario. The fighter will never get anywhere near the wizard. There are tons of spells that end the battle in one spell. And summon other powerful creatures to fight the fighter as well. Lots of protection spells for the wizard too. Why are you guys assuming the fighter just gets to walk up and start pounding on the wizard?
Wizards (Excluding bladesingers) focus on one thing and one thing only: Intelligence. A fighter with the following layout: Str: 20 Dex: 20 Con: 20 INT: 8 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 could go first, guaranteed, and then do the following:
4 attacks, Action surge; 4 attacks, for 8 attacks total.
Greatsword attacks. To hit (+11) Avg. Roll of 10, for 21. He hits every attack.
Damage: 16d6 + 40
Avg: 56+40, for 96 dmg
Now the wizard's turn:
Meteor swarm.
Fighter succeds, and takes half damage due to 3 indomitable uses.
I think you guys are REALLY badly underestimating the Wizard in this scenario. The fighter will never get anywhere near the wizard. There are tons of spells that end the battle in one spell. And summon other powerful creatures to fight the fighter as well. Lots of protection spells for the wizard too. Why are you guys assuming the fighter just gets to walk up and start pounding on the wizard?
Wizards (Excluding bladesingers) focus on one thing and one thing only: Intelligence. A fighter with the following layout: Str: 20 Dex: 20 Con: 20 INT: 8 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 could go first, guaranteed, and then do the following:
4 attacks, Action surge; 4 attacks, for 8 attacks total.
Greatsword attacks. To hit (+11) Avg. Roll of 10, for 21. He hits every attack.
Damage: 16d6 + 40
Avg: 56+40, for 96 dmg
Now the wizard's turn:
Meteor swarm.
Fighter succeds, and takes half damage due to 3 indomitable uses.
Fighter repeats attack and kills wizard.
Nah fighter only has a shot if they go first and can ensure a hit on most of their attacks. A wizard with the right build has an easier time going first and mitigating damage than a fighter as they can add INT to initiative (War mage/Chrono wizard), a d8 to initiative (gift of alacrity), ADV on initiative (fortune’s favor ). With a max dex the wizard has +10 to initiative (+5 dex and +5 INT), mage armor allows them to have an 18 AC (13+5 dex) and reaction to make it 23 AC (Shield Spell)
Meteor Swarm is definitely not the best use of their spell slot as they could simply call up a wall of force that the fighter cannot get through. Then they spend some time buffing themselves or simply watch the fighter feebly attack an invisible wall.
Or as it has been mentioned a simply invulnerability spell and they just blast the fighter with their blast of choice.
Honestly its not even close....martials have a very hard disadvantage to casters at later levels.
I think you guys are REALLY badly underestimating the Wizard in this scenario. The fighter will never get anywhere near the wizard. There are tons of spells that end the battle in one spell. And summon other powerful creatures to fight the fighter as well. Lots of protection spells for the wizard too. Why are you guys assuming the fighter just gets to walk up and start pounding on the wizard?
Wizards (Excluding bladesingers) focus on one thing and one thing only: Intelligence. A fighter with the following layout: Str: 20 Dex: 20 Con: 20 INT: 8 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 could go first, guaranteed, and then do the following:
4 attacks, Action surge; 4 attacks, for 8 attacks total.
Greatsword attacks. To hit (+11) Avg. Roll of 10, for 21. He hits every attack.
Damage: 16d6 + 40
Avg: 56+40, for 96 dmg
Now the wizard's turn:
Meteor swarm.
Fighter succeds, and takes half damage due to 3 indomitable uses.
Fighter repeats attack and kills wizard.
Nah fighter only has a shot if they go first and can ensure a hit on most of their attacks. A wizard with the right build has an easier time going first and mitigating damage than a fighter as they can add INT to initiative (War mage/Chrono wizard), a d8 to initiative (gift of alacrity), ADV on initiative (fortune’s favor ). With a max dex the wizard has +10 to initiative (+5 dex and +5 INT), mage armor allows them to have an 18 AC (13+5 dex) and reaction to make it 23 AC (Shield Spell)
Meteor Swarm is definitely not the best use of their spell slot as they could simply call up a wall of force that the fighter cannot get through. Then they spend some time buffing themselves or simply watch the fighter feebly attack an invisible wall.
Or as it has been mentioned a simply invulnerability spell and they just blast the fighter with their blast of choice.
Honestly its not even close....martials have a very hard disadvantage to casters at later levels.
About the AC Yeah, But Shield works on only one attack, and even then, a fighter can easily hit them.
And Wizard spells are powerful, but even then, Fighters still have indomitable, nearly guaranteeing that they succeed saves, and they can have stoopid high AC If built well. And as said before, A fighter can still ruin a wizard's life. Tug their staff out of his hand and then snap it over your leg.Tackle them to the ground and laugh as their puny bodies try to escape. an EK can cast silence on them, and then grapple them, rendering literally ALL Their abilities useless. Even without any subclass abilities, a lv 20 fighter could still tackle the wizard to the ground, even after taking devastating damage, and then cover their mouth and nose, suffocating them and preventing them from casting spells. Even with a constitution modifier of +5, the wizard would survive 5 minutes.
Wizards rely on tanks to survive, and when you pit the said tank against the wizard, they have a very hard time.
Any respectable tier 4 fighter worth their salt has the following: black razor and a storm giant belt, GWM, and the alert feat.
You can build around dumping STR, bump up your DEX for more initiative. You can easily hit over whatever AC the wizard has, shield included, action surge and ruin their day. You'll find few things survive after you say "I attack you 8~9 times with GWM and advantage."
You could go champion for extra imitative and better crit chances, or samurai for better defensive capability since you get a free res:wis.
Any respectable tier 4 fighter worth their salt has the following: black razor and a storm giant belt, GWM, and the alert feat.
You can build around dumping STR, bump up your DEX for more initiative. You can easily hit over whatever AC the wizard has, shield included, action surge and ruin their day. You'll find few things survive after you say "I attack you 8~9 times with GWM and advantage."
Under those conditions, any respectable tier 4 wizard worth their salt has the following: robe of the archmagi and a staff of the magi, War Caster, and the Fey Touched feats.
You can easily just focus on Intelligence and DEX, so you have a good bonus to initiative and AC of 20 (25 with Shield or Bladesong, 30 with Bladesong and Shield). You can easily ignore whatever attacks the Fighter makes unless they get a critical hit. If you go first, you easily win the fight by casting Invulnerability. If you don't go first, you'll have more than enough AC to survive until your turn.
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I think you guys are REALLY badly underestimating the Wizard in this scenario. The fighter will never get anywhere near the wizard. There are tons of spells that end the battle in one spell. And summon other powerful creatures to fight the fighter as well. Lots of protection spells for the wizard too. Why are you guys assuming the fighter just gets to walk up and start pounding on the wizard?
Wizards (Excluding bladesingers) focus on one thing and one thing only: Intelligence. A fighter with the following layout: Str: 20 Dex: 20 Con: 20 INT: 8 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 could go first, guaranteed, and then do the following:
4 attacks, Action surge; 4 attacks, for 8 attacks total.
Greatsword attacks. To hit (+11) Avg. Roll of 10, for 21. He hits every attack.
Damage: 16d6 + 40
Avg: 56+40, for 96 dmg
Now the wizard's turn:
Meteor swarm.
Fighter succeds, and takes half damage due to 3 indomitable uses.
Fighter repeats attack and kills wizard.
Nah fighter only has a shot if they go first and can ensure a hit on most of their attacks. A wizard with the right build has an easier time going first and mitigating damage than a fighter as they can add INT to initiative (War mage/Chrono wizard), a d8 to initiative (gift of alacrity), ADV on initiative (fortune’s favor ). With a max dex the wizard has +10 to initiative (+5 dex and +5 INT), mage armor allows them to have an 18 AC (13+5 dex) and reaction to make it 23 AC (Shield Spell)
Meteor Swarm is definitely not the best use of their spell slot as they could simply call up a wall of force that the fighter cannot get through. Then they spend some time buffing themselves or simply watch the fighter feebly attack an invisible wall.
Or as it has been mentioned a simply invulnerability spell and they just blast the fighter with their blast of choice.
Honestly its not even close....martials have a very hard disadvantage to casters at later levels.
About the AC Yeah, But Shield works on only one attack, and even then, a fighter can easily hit them.
And Wizard spells are powerful, but even then, Fighters still have indomitable, nearly guaranteeing that they succeed saves, and they can have stoopid high AC If built well. And as said before, A fighter can still ruin a wizard's life. Tug their staff out of his hand and then snap it over your leg.Tackle them to the ground and laugh as their puny bodies try to escape. an EK can cast silence on them, and then grapple them, rendering literally ALL Their abilities useless. Even without any subclass abilities, a lv 20 fighter could still tackle the wizard to the ground, even after taking devastating damage, and then cover their mouth and nose, suffocating them and preventing them from casting spells. Even with a constitution modifier of +5, the wizard would survive 5 minutes.
Wizards rely on tanks to survive, and when you pit the said tank against the wizard, they have a very hard time.
AC from shield lasts a whole round not one attack.
If the EK casts silence....counterspell.
Wizard has a lot more ways to go first compared to the fighter so I doubt they even have a chance to attack before the wizard puts up invuln. and its game over.
Fighter has literally no chance even against an unprepared wizard...****y way I see it is if they surprise the wizard and get lucky on some crits.
A prepared wizard...holy shit that fighter is dead FAST...
Level 20 wizard prepared for the fight would have like 5 simulacrums helping them all casting buff/debuff spells. Then its not a contest and more an outright slaughter of the fighter with no real chance to win at all.
Any respectable tier 4 fighter worth their salt has the following: black razor and a storm giant belt, GWM, and the alert feat.
You can build around dumping STR, bump up your DEX for more initiative. You can easily hit over whatever AC the wizard has, shield included, action surge and ruin their day. You'll find few things survive after you say "I attack you 8~9 times with GWM and advantage."
Under those conditions, any respectable tier 4 wizard worth their salt has the following: robe of the archmagi and a staff of the magi, War Caster, and the Fey Touched feats.
You can easily just focus on Intelligence and DEX, so you have a good bonus to initiative and AC of 20 (25 with Shield or Bladesong, 30 with Bladesong and Shield). You can easily ignore whatever attacks the Fighter makes unless they get a critical hit. If you go first, you easily win the fight by casting Invulnerability. If you don't go first, you'll have more than enough AC to survive until your turn.
This exactly....the wizard could always pick up alert too and still be a much higher initiative than the fighter can ever dream of. Chrono wizard with max dex/int and alert would be rolling +15 to initiative vs the best the fighter can hope for is 10.
Wizard has a bunch of spells that could give them even more of a boost to initiative and if the wizard goes first its over.
Fighter only has a chance if they manage to surprise the wizard (not happening with alert feat) or they get lucky, roll higher initiative, and crit a lot.
Any respectable tier 4 fighter worth their salt has the following: black razor and a storm giant belt, GWM, and the alert feat.
You can build around dumping STR, bump up your DEX for more initiative. You can easily hit over whatever AC the wizard has, shield included, action surge and ruin their day. You'll find few things survive after you say "I attack you 8~9 times with GWM and advantage."
Under those conditions, any respectable tier 4 wizard worth their salt has the following: robe of the archmagi and a staff of the magi, War Caster, and the Fey Touched feats.
You can easily just focus on Intelligence and DEX, so you have a good bonus to initiative and AC of 20 (25 with Shield or Bladesong, 30 with Bladesong and Shield). You can easily ignore whatever attacks the Fighter makes unless they get a critical hit. If you go first, you easily win the fight by casting Invulnerability. If you don't go first, you'll have more than enough AC to survive until your turn.
then you get disarmed, no focus, the fighter just grapples you and gives you a nuggie until your invulnerability wears off, and there's nothing you can do about that.
Any respectable tier 4 fighter worth their salt has the following: black razor and a storm giant belt, GWM, and the alert feat.
You can build around dumping STR, bump up your DEX for more initiative. You can easily hit over whatever AC the wizard has, shield included, action surge and ruin their day. You'll find few things survive after you say "I attack you 8~9 times with GWM and advantage."
Under those conditions, any respectable tier 4 wizard worth their salt has the following: robe of the archmagi and a staff of the magi, War Caster, and the Fey Touched feats.
You can easily just focus on Intelligence and DEX, so you have a good bonus to initiative and AC of 20 (25 with Shield or Bladesong, 30 with Bladesong and Shield). You can easily ignore whatever attacks the Fighter makes unless they get a critical hit. If you go first, you easily win the fight by casting Invulnerability. If you don't go first, you'll have more than enough AC to survive until your turn.
then you get disarmed, no focus, the fighter just grapples you and gives you a nuggie until your invulnerability wears off, and there's nothing you can do about that.
uhhh....you do realize that grappled does nothing besides reduces movement? the wizard can still cast spells....
RAW there is no way to "disarm" a component pouch as it is worn not held.
So no they will just cast a spell and look at the fighter with a funny face and fully realize that they dumped INT
Yes, I understand that, and why you made them, I'm just saying that we can't base the discussion around these.
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Just like we cant base a discussion on DM discretion, Mephista. Especially with not real grapple rules like mine no matter how balanced since they’re not RAW.
So yeah the only option is for the fighter deal over assuming 18 con: 162 hp in one round against an AC of 24 (I’m a hobgoblin: Mage armor + 18 Dex + A Shield + The Shield Spell).
Yep, fighter literally has to kill the Wizard in one round to win, and succeed on Temporal Shunt.
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it's almost impossible for a wizard to lose and the fighter win.
Yep. The odds are in the wizard's favor.
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Yep very much so.
divination wizard just hands the fighter a lower initiative roll and himself a higher one, goes first and can leave the fight if he wishes, or cast invulnerability and then checks to see if the fighter has more healing potions than he has blast spells, or maybe just uses one of the many spell combos that result in a sure loss.
so diviner always wins
outside that, I guess it could go either way depending on rolls and features like lucky, contingency, existing clones, starting range etc.
1st point:
”divination wizard just hands the fighter a lower initiative roll and himself a higher one”
Answer: A divination Wizard can use a portent only once per turn so you could give yourself an higher roll and the fighter a lower roll. Though a Chronurgist could auto win the initiative.
2nd point:
“goes first and can leave the fight if he wishes, or cast invulnerability and then checks to see if the fighter has more healing potions than he has blast spells, or maybe just uses one of the many spell combos that result in a sure loss.”
Answer: You can’t leave the fight. There is no magic items. And yes the Wizard does have powerful spells.
3rd point:
”so diviner always wins”
Answer: No because like discussed before portent isn’t a guarantee its numbers are randomized so you could just get like three 10’s and be sad.
4th point:
”outside that, I guess it could go either way depending on rolls and features like lucky, contingency, existing clones, starting range etc.“
Answer: No as a Chronurgist you win no matter what. Why you may ask well, the Chronurgist uses Convergent future to go first with whatever roll is needed to go first then he uses Forcecage (No save) or Invulnerability (invincible). Also there’s no prep ie contingency, clones, and the starting range is 30ft.
Final Note: Chronurgist or Divination are the best subclasses.
They're not the "best" subclasses, but they are the best for taking on the fighter one on one at this level.
Just a quick correction.
Yes, they automatically win in order to get high enough initiative to go first, and then cast Invulnerability, and just immediately blast the Fighter to death.
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That’s why they are the best. Also with the Chronurgist their ability Momentary stasis stops grappling since it’s not a spell (No components) and it incapacitates The grappler ending the grappler.
When I think about it Chronurgist is the best against the fighter wizard with having rerolls an auto win/fail, a hold type person and a bonus to initiative along with other things that are just a party helper out of the battle.
Though the downfalls are the features use reactions compared to the divinations Wizard who doesn’t.
Wizards (Excluding bladesingers) focus on one thing and one thing only: Intelligence. A fighter with the following layout: Str: 20 Dex: 20 Con: 20 INT: 8 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 could go first, guaranteed, and then do the following:
4 attacks, Action surge; 4 attacks, for 8 attacks total.
Greatsword attacks. To hit (+11) Avg. Roll of 10, for 21. He hits every attack.
Damage: 16d6 + 40
Avg: 56+40, for 96 dmg
Now the wizard's turn:
Meteor swarm.
Fighter succeds, and takes half damage due to 3 indomitable uses.
Fighter repeats attack and kills wizard.
Nah fighter only has a shot if they go first and can ensure a hit on most of their attacks. A wizard with the right build has an easier time going first and mitigating damage than a fighter as they can add INT to initiative (War mage/Chrono wizard), a d8 to initiative (gift of alacrity), ADV on initiative (fortune’s favor ). With a max dex the wizard has +10 to initiative (+5 dex and +5 INT), mage armor allows them to have an 18 AC (13+5 dex) and reaction to make it 23 AC (Shield Spell)
Meteor Swarm is definitely not the best use of their spell slot as they could simply call up a wall of force that the fighter cannot get through. Then they spend some time buffing themselves or simply watch the fighter feebly attack an invisible wall.
Or as it has been mentioned a simply invulnerability spell and they just blast the fighter with their blast of choice.
Honestly its not even close....martials have a very hard disadvantage to casters at later levels.
About the AC Yeah, But Shield works on only one attack, and even then, a fighter can easily hit them.
And Wizard spells are powerful, but even then, Fighters still have indomitable, nearly guaranteeing that they succeed saves, and they can have stoopid high AC If built well. And as said before, A fighter can still ruin a wizard's life. Tug their staff out of his hand and then snap it over your leg.Tackle them to the ground and laugh as their puny bodies try to escape. an EK can cast silence on them, and then grapple them, rendering literally ALL Their abilities useless. Even without any subclass abilities, a lv 20 fighter could still tackle the wizard to the ground, even after taking devastating damage, and then cover their mouth and nose, suffocating them and preventing them from casting spells. Even with a constitution modifier of +5, the wizard would survive 5 minutes.
Wizards rely on tanks to survive, and when you pit the said tank against the wizard, they have a very hard time.
Any respectable tier 4 fighter worth their salt has the following: black razor and a storm giant belt, GWM, and the alert feat.
You can build around dumping STR, bump up your DEX for more initiative. You can easily hit over whatever AC the wizard has, shield included, action surge and ruin their day. You'll find few things survive after you say "I attack you 8~9 times with GWM and advantage."
You could go champion for extra imitative and better crit chances, or samurai for better defensive capability since you get a free res:wis.
Under those conditions, any respectable tier 4 wizard worth their salt has the following: robe of the archmagi and a staff of the magi, War Caster, and the Fey Touched feats.
You can easily just focus on Intelligence and DEX, so you have a good bonus to initiative and AC of 20 (25 with Shield or Bladesong, 30 with Bladesong and Shield). You can easily ignore whatever attacks the Fighter makes unless they get a critical hit. If you go first, you easily win the fight by casting Invulnerability. If you don't go first, you'll have more than enough AC to survive until your turn.
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AC from shield lasts a whole round not one attack.
If the EK casts silence....counterspell.
Wizard has a lot more ways to go first compared to the fighter so I doubt they even have a chance to attack before the wizard puts up invuln. and its game over.
Fighter has literally no chance even against an unprepared wizard...****y way I see it is if they surprise the wizard and get lucky on some crits.
A prepared wizard...holy shit that fighter is dead FAST...
Level 20 wizard prepared for the fight would have like 5 simulacrums helping them all casting buff/debuff spells. Then its not a contest and more an outright slaughter of the fighter with no real chance to win at all.
This exactly....the wizard could always pick up alert too and still be a much higher initiative than the fighter can ever dream of. Chrono wizard with max dex/int and alert would be rolling +15 to initiative vs the best the fighter can hope for is 10.
Wizard has a bunch of spells that could give them even more of a boost to initiative and if the wizard goes first its over.
Fighter only has a chance if they manage to surprise the wizard (not happening with alert feat) or they get lucky, roll higher initiative, and crit a lot.
then you get disarmed, no focus, the fighter just grapples you and gives you a nuggie until your invulnerability wears off, and there's nothing you can do about that.
uhhh....you do realize that grappled does nothing besides reduces movement? the wizard can still cast spells....
RAW there is no way to "disarm" a component pouch as it is worn not held.
So no they will just cast a spell and look at the fighter with a funny face and fully realize that they dumped INT