And don't talk about "Being down fairly quickly" If you're on team wizards - that is the epitome of hypocrisy.
"team wizard" has shown that they can achieve victory without a single attack roll or saving throw under duress. In the case of Invulnerability, the fighter has no recourse and the wizard can take ten minutes (100 rounds) to kill them with various spells at their leisure.
There is no hypocrisy going on. It's just time for team Fighter to put math behind their statements because they rely on it.
And don't talk about "Being down fairly quickly" If you're on team wizards - that is the epitome of hypocrisy.
"team wizard" has shown that they can achieve victory without a single attack roll or saving throw under duress. In the case of Invulnerability, the fighter has no recourse and the wizard can take ten minutes (100 rounds) to kill them with various spells at their leisure.
There is no hypocrisy going on. It's just time for team Fighter to put math behind their statements because they rely on it.
Or a chrono wizard pulling out the Arcane Abeyance Mote and putting up a Tiny Hut...then they have 8 hours to take the fighter down lol.
Okay, How about If the fighter Grapples the wizard, and then uses the pin ability from the grappler feat, then tries to wait death out? I'd say the fighter wins that way.
Also, restrained does not stop you from casting spells. It's insanely easy for the wizard to escape the grapple and they don't even have to. The wizard can just hug the fighter back and keep on casting.
Okay, How about If the fighter Grapples the wizard, and then uses the pin ability from the grappler feat, then tries to wait death out? I'd say the fighter wins that way.
Okay, How about If the fighter Grapples the wizard, and then uses the pin ability from the grappler feat, then tries to wait death out? I'd say the fighter wins that way.
Arcane focus, assuming it isn't a magic item since those are actually difficult to damage, only help substitute material component requirements as a catch all and wouldn't do anything for the spells that are Verbal and Somatic components only. This also requires the fighter managing to get to the wizard, past all the teleports, magic walls, buffs and debuffs, fly speed, etc. that the wizard can grant themselves.
Arcane focus, assuming it isn't a magic item since those are actually difficult to damage, only help substitute material component requirements as a catch all and wouldn't do anything for the spells that are Verbal and Somatic components only. This also requires the fighter managing to get to the wizard, past all the teleports, magic walls, buffs and debuffs, fly speed, etc. that the wizard can grant themselves.
This still makes the wizard loose lots of spells, and many, MANY Damage spells
Okay, How about If the fighter Grapples the wizard, and then uses the pin ability from the grappler feat, then tries to wait death out? I'd say the fighter wins that way.
You can still cast spells restrained and the fighter is actually restrained in that scenario so its actually worse for them to do that lol....
You can freely cast spells that force saving throws with 0 repercussions. So yeah...fighter is pretty much always going to die hard.
Dang. That feat is shite. My bad.
But still, what if, the fighter takes the wizard's arcane focus and breaks it?
Short answer no not really. Long answer kinda but DM dependent. Components pouches are worn and there is no rules on targeting worn items but JC has stated its technically possible but it would be up to the DM on the effectiveness.
....However...this means the wizard could target the fighters sword/bow/whatever as well.
Sorry to say, but wizards are too weak to rip a sword out of the hands of a fighter. But I guess they could target them with heat metal...
Nah you just do Animate Objects (Verbal and Somatic only so no focus needed) upcast and have 16 tiny objects attack the sword/maul/polearm:
Tiny
20
18
4
18
+8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage
If you are attacking objects you would assign HP based on the DMG pg. 248 most likely:
Hit Points
An object's hit points measure how much damage it can take before losing its structural integrity. Resilient objects have more hit points than fragile ones. Large objects also tend to have more hit points than small ones, unless breaking a small part of the object is just as effective as breaking the whole thing. The Object Hit Points table provides suggested hit points for fragile and resilient objects that are Large or smaller.
Size
Fragile
Resilient
Tiny (bottle, lock)
2 (1d4)
5 (2d4)
Small (chest, lute)
3 (1d6)
10 (3d6)
Medium (barrel, chandelier)
4 (1d8)
18 (4d8)
Large (Cart, 10-ft.-by-10-ft. window)
5 (1d10)
27 (5d10)
Even being generous and giving the steel sword an AC of 20 and HP of say 18 chances are you will just straight shatter the fighters weapon on average
As your average damage with the objects will be 48.8 attacking normally....so yeah basically if you want to play that game the wizard still wins.
....However...this means the wizard could target the fighters sword/bow/whatever as well.
Sorry to say, but wizards are too weak to rip a sword out of the hands of a fighter. But I guess they could target them with heat metal...
Nah you just do Animate Objects (Verbal and Somatic only so no focus needed) upcast and have 16 tiny objects attack the sword/maul/polearm:
Tiny
20
18
4
18
+8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage
If you are attacking objects you would assign HP based on the DMG pg. 248 most likely:
Hit Points
An object's hit points measure how much damage it can take before losing its structural integrity. Resilient objects have more hit points than fragile ones. Large objects also tend to have more hit points than small ones, unless breaking a small part of the object is just as effective as breaking the whole thing. The Object Hit Points table provides suggested hit points for fragile and resilient objects that are Large or smaller.
Size
Fragile
Resilient
Tiny (bottle, lock)
2 (1d4)
5 (2d4)
Small (chest, lute)
3 (1d6)
10 (3d6)
Medium (barrel, chandelier)
4 (1d8)
18 (4d8)
Large (Cart, 10-ft.-by-10-ft. window)
5 (1d10)
27 (5d10)
Even being generous and giving the steel sword an AC of 20 and HP of say 18 chances are you will just straight shatter the fighters weapon on average
As your average damage with the objects will be 48.8 attacking normally....so yeah basically if you want to play that game the wizard still wins.
....However...this means the wizard could target the fighters sword/bow/whatever as well.
Sorry to say, but wizards are too weak to rip a sword out of the hands of a fighter. But I guess they could target them with heat metal...
Nah you just do Animate Objects (Verbal and Somatic only so no focus needed) upcast and have 16 tiny objects attack the sword/maul/polearm:
Tiny
20
18
4
18
+8 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage
If you are attacking objects you would assign HP based on the DMG pg. 248 most likely:
Hit Points
An object's hit points measure how much damage it can take before losing its structural integrity. Resilient objects have more hit points than fragile ones. Large objects also tend to have more hit points than small ones, unless breaking a small part of the object is just as effective as breaking the whole thing. The Object Hit Points table provides suggested hit points for fragile and resilient objects that are Large or smaller.
Size
Fragile
Resilient
Tiny (bottle, lock)
2 (1d4)
5 (2d4)
Small (chest, lute)
3 (1d6)
10 (3d6)
Medium (barrel, chandelier)
4 (1d8)
18 (4d8)
Large (Cart, 10-ft.-by-10-ft. window)
5 (1d10)
27 (5d10)
Even being generous and giving the steel sword an AC of 20 and HP of say 18 chances are you will just straight shatter the fighters weapon on average
As your average damage with the objects will be 48.8 attacking normally....so yeah basically if you want to play that game the wizard still wins.
If the fighter is EK or has magic initiate, the could cast thunderclap and kill all the objects. Then use action surge to still get an attack in.
Thunderclap has an average of 14 damage while the objects have an HP of 20. They can also make the save (oddly they do not have a CON score in the spell so I would assume its a 10?) but they still have a decent chance to not take any damage at all.
Plus you give up 4 attacks for one AoE cantrip and you burn an action surge to just get one attack action off?....huge win for the wizard.
I guess they blow an entire turn to kill them by 2 action surges?
I dunno. I must admit, I don't see why you should play 20 levels of one class through and through unless its druid or you're a beginner player. I don't know If I have ever played someone who wasn't multiclassed by lv 6.
I don't call myself a minmaxer or a munchkin, but I think It's much more fun to have an effective character with levels in multiple classes.
That being said, I think that wizards are like the 2nd best class (Bards are first), but they're just so dang corny I have never played one before. Sure their abilities look good on paper, but unless you're an Illusionist or a diviner, you're weak.
Another thing that we're forgetting to mention is the distance away they start at. Needless to say, If they start more than 70 feet away from each other, the wizard wins. Any closer and he is in severe danger.
Honestly I play fighters a lot, and I have done pvp fighter vs wizard. Specifically, I was a Goliath rune knight fighter with 1 level in barbarian. The wizard was a flat wizard evoker, who lost within 2 rounds.
I guess they blow an entire turn to kill them by 2 action surges?
I dunno. I must admit, I don't see why you should play 20 levels of one class through and through unless its druid or you're a beginner player. I don't know If I have ever played someone who wasn't multiclassed by lv 6.
I don't call myself a minmaxer or a munchkin, but I think It's much more fun to have an effective character with levels in multiple classes.
That being said, I think that wizards are like the 2nd best class (Bards are first), but they're just so dang corny I have never played one before. Sure their abilities look good on paper, but unless you're an Illusionist or a diviner, you're weak.
Another thing that we're forgetting to mention is the distance away they start at. Needless to say, If they start more than 70 feet away from each other, the wizard wins. Any closer and he is in severe danger.
Honestly I play fighters a lot, and I have done pvp fighter vs wizard. Specifically, I was a Goliath rune knight fighter with 1 level in barbarian. The wizard was a flat wizard evoker, who lost within 2 rounds.
1. Chrono wizard is by far the best wizard subclass.
2. Its highly dependent on play to work effectively especially early on when they do not have a lot of good spells to work with.
3. This was based on level 20 so that's where the discussion was held.
4. Distance does not matter at all if the wizard goes first. Honestly distance doesn't matter much at all at this level.
Wizards (and most casters in general) just blow up single classed martials completely at this level...its not even close. Spells are just too effective for PvP fights at that level its not even a challenge.
In the end...the fighter as a minimum has to be an Eldritch night with dispel magic and max intelligence....and then be lucky....
Dispel Magic will only work on a single object/creature too so you can only dismiss a single Animated Object at a time!
It just goes to show how insanely powerful spells are in this edition compared to martial abilities.
The really only way the fighter has a chance is if they do a Nova build and gets lucky going first.
Basically if you get an Elven Accuracy Samurai Fighter with CBE and Sharpshooter you could potentially down them in one round with good hits: https://imgur.com/a/1UKjfMB
but even then with ADV and the extra attack from Rapid Strike you are only looking at 126.5 average damage which is short of the 160 I had up for my level 20 wizard earilier.
You could get some good rolls potentially but its your best shot as a fighter overall I think.
In the end...the fighter as a minimum has to be an Eldritch night with dispel magic and max intelligence....and then be lucky....
Dispel Magic will only work on a single object/creature too so you can only dismiss a single Animated Object at a time!
It just goes to show how insanely powerful spells are in this edition compared to martial abilities.
The really only way the fighter has a chance is if they do a Nova build and gets lucky going first.
Basically if you get an Elven Accuracy Samurai Fighter with CBE and Sharpshooter you could potentially down them in one round with good hits: https://imgur.com/a/1UKjfMB
but even then with ADV and the extra attack from Rapid Strike you are only looking at 126.5 average damage which is short of the 160 I had up for my level 20 wizard earilier.
You could get some good rolls potentially but its your best shot as a fighter overall I think.
at the end of the day, a 30 AC is no big obstacle to overcome. you get an 18+ to hit with the aforementioned, and you -will- go first. It won't take long to just punch through, and you can disarm with taking up martial adept (which is easily feasible with a storm belt and dumping strength.) Yeah, wizard HP is not going to last long lol.
This is not the first time I've seen the pro-Fighter camp claim they're going first with certainty.
What makes you so certain?
wizards want int, they want warcaster, they want res:con, they want dex, they want more con. Meanwhile, a fighter has so much liberty for what they take and build. Meanwhile a champion fighter, with alert and a +2 dex modifer, easily achieves +10 to their initiative roll, and that's not asking for much. They can even pick up a sentinel shield if need be for advantage on the roll.
Basically, it takes a specified wizard to stand toe-to-toe in the initiative battle against a generalized fighter.
So is this about trying to compare "generalized" wizards and fighters or is it about Elven and Half-Elven Archer Fighters with an Oathbow. You're changing your metrics whenever it suites you.
I'm not changing anything, I'm merely pointing out the flaw in the assumption that an elf samurai would do some ridiculously low number like 126 in a round. Also, it's somewhat flawed to assumed an elven samurai would take CBE since that conflicts with fighting spirit activation.
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"team wizard" has shown that they can achieve victory without a single attack roll or saving throw under duress. In the case of Invulnerability, the fighter has no recourse and the wizard can take ten minutes (100 rounds) to kill them with various spells at their leisure.
There is no hypocrisy going on. It's just time for team Fighter to put math behind their statements because they rely on it.
Or a chrono wizard pulling out the Arcane Abeyance Mote and putting up a Tiny Hut...then they have 8 hours to take the fighter down lol.
Okay, How about If the fighter Grapples the wizard, and then uses the pin ability from the grappler feat, then tries to wait death out? I'd say the fighter wins that way.
Misty Step
Also, restrained does not stop you from casting spells. It's insanely easy for the wizard to escape the grapple and they don't even have to. The wizard can just hug the fighter back and keep on casting.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Restrained
You can still cast spells restrained and the fighter is actually restrained in that scenario so its actually worse for them to do that lol....
You can freely cast spells that force saving throws with 0 repercussions. So yeah...fighter is pretty much always going to die hard.
Dang. That feat is shite. My bad.
But still, what if, the fighter takes the wizard's arcane focus and breaks it?
Arcane focus, assuming it isn't a magic item since those are actually difficult to damage, only help substitute material component requirements as a catch all and wouldn't do anything for the spells that are Verbal and Somatic components only. This also requires the fighter managing to get to the wizard, past all the teleports, magic walls, buffs and debuffs, fly speed, etc. that the wizard can grant themselves.
This still makes the wizard loose lots of spells, and many, MANY Damage spells
Short answer no not really. Long answer kinda but DM dependent. Components pouches are worn and there is no rules on targeting worn items but JC has stated its technically possible but it would be up to the DM on the effectiveness.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/138892/can-i-attack-an-object-that-is-being-worn-or-carried-by-a-creature-during-combat
However...this means the wizard could target the fighters sword/bow/whatever as well.
Not all spells require Material components so the wizard could still cast spells with V/S components which is a long list.
Sorry to say, but wizards are too weak to rip a sword out of the hands of a fighter. But I guess they could target them with heat metal...
Nah you just do Animate Objects (Verbal and Somatic only so no focus needed) upcast and have 16 tiny objects attack the sword/maul/polearm:
If you are attacking objects you would assign HP based on the DMG pg. 248 most likely:
Hit Points
An object's hit points measure how much damage it can take before losing its structural integrity. Resilient objects have more hit points than fragile ones. Large objects also tend to have more hit points than small ones, unless breaking a small part of the object is just as effective as breaking the whole thing. The Object Hit Points table provides suggested hit points for fragile and resilient objects that are Large or smaller.
27 (5d10)
Even being generous and giving the steel sword an AC of 20 and HP of say 18 chances are you will just straight shatter the fighters weapon on average
As your average damage with the objects will be 48.8 attacking normally....so yeah basically if you want to play that game the wizard still wins.
Calculator for Objects: https://imgur.com/a/0kk7KOR
If the fighter is EK or has magic initiate, the could cast thunderclap and kill all the objects. Then use action surge to still get an attack in.
Thunderclap has an average of 14 damage while the objects have an HP of 20. They can also make the save (oddly they do not have a CON score in the spell so I would assume its a 10?) but they still have a decent chance to not take any damage at all.
Plus you give up 4 attacks for one AoE cantrip and you burn an action surge to just get one attack action off?....huge win for the wizard.
In the end...the fighter as a minimum has to be an Eldritch night with dispel magic and max intelligence....and then be lucky....
I guess they blow an entire turn to kill them by 2 action surges?
I dunno. I must admit, I don't see why you should play 20 levels of one class through and through unless its druid or you're a beginner player. I don't know If I have ever played someone who wasn't multiclassed by lv 6.
I don't call myself a minmaxer or a munchkin, but I think It's much more fun to have an effective character with levels in multiple classes.
That being said, I think that wizards are like the 2nd best class (Bards are first), but they're just so dang corny I have never played one before. Sure their abilities look good on paper, but unless you're an Illusionist or a diviner, you're weak.
Another thing that we're forgetting to mention is the distance away they start at. Needless to say, If they start more than 70 feet away from each other, the wizard wins. Any closer and he is in severe danger.
Honestly I play fighters a lot, and I have done pvp fighter vs wizard. Specifically, I was a Goliath rune knight fighter with 1 level in barbarian. The wizard was a flat wizard evoker, who lost within 2 rounds.
1. Chrono wizard is by far the best wizard subclass.
2. Its highly dependent on play to work effectively especially early on when they do not have a lot of good spells to work with.
3. This was based on level 20 so that's where the discussion was held.
4. Distance does not matter at all if the wizard goes first. Honestly distance doesn't matter much at all at this level.
Wizards (and most casters in general) just blow up single classed martials completely at this level...its not even close. Spells are just too effective for PvP fights at that level its not even a challenge.
Dispel Magic will only work on a single object/creature too so you can only dismiss a single Animated Object at a time!
It just goes to show how insanely powerful spells are in this edition compared to martial abilities.
The really only way the fighter has a chance is if they do a Nova build and gets lucky going first.
Basically if you get an Elven Accuracy Samurai Fighter with CBE and Sharpshooter you could potentially down them in one round with good hits: https://imgur.com/a/1UKjfMB
but even then with ADV and the extra attack from Rapid Strike you are only looking at 126.5 average damage which is short of the 160 I had up for my level 20 wizard earilier.
You could get some good rolls potentially but its your best shot as a fighter overall I think.
ever heard of an oath bow?
So is this about trying to compare "generalized" wizards and fighters or is it about Elven and Half-Elven Archer Fighters with an Oathbow. You're changing your metrics whenever it suites you.
I'm not changing anything, I'm merely pointing out the flaw in the assumption that an elf samurai would do some ridiculously low number like 126 in a round. Also, it's somewhat flawed to assumed an elven samurai would take CBE since that conflicts with fighting spirit activation.