Honestly, and no offense, but that Dwarven Champion is easily one of the worst fighter builds the class could field in this challenge. No innate ways to protect against magic (or at least a chance to disrupt like the Arcane Archer), no innate initiative boosts, and the lack of Nova potential to even threaten a lucky round. And on top of that, its plan is to NOT attack. Like most of the other claims made in support of the fighter class, it makes a blatant mistake in assuming the battle is about nothing but trading damage.
The Wizard operates on another axis entirely.
I think OptimusGrimus showed a perfect example of how quickly the fight is effectively over when the Wizard has even one single chance to act. And as I've shown with the hobgoblin build, any Wizard can be built to survive the fighter's best damage outputs.
You lack imagination if you think you need to act first or nova strike to win a duel with a mage - what could you possibly do to defeat a Dwarven Champion build that can literally outlast your entire spellbook worth of damage? I’m listening.
Point One:
“You lack imagination if you think you need to act first or nova strike to win a duel with a mage”
Answer: “You lack imagination” no need for insult in a civil debate (I’m joshing you Idc). As with your new build of Endurance do you really think the only way a wizard can defeat you is through damage. As with how viable it is I would put it at the bottom tied with Eldritch Knight.
The Builds So far are: Do tell if I’ve missed any
1. The Arcane Archer Try to go first then somehow double banish the wizard and deal enough damage to kill a AC 23, 100 - 162 hp wizard (Though Funnily enough is the most viable sitting at first)
2. The Samurai Nova, The Pure Battlemaster Feat God Uber Nova Mega Pro Thingy
3. The Enduring Dwarf (That Hp Guy who regenerates), The Eldritch Knight (The sad wizard who wants to be a wizard but can’t as is too sad)
The most viable chance to win is the go first then Nova the wizard build of which you were adamantly against.
Point two:
“what could you possibly do to defeat a Dwarven Champion build that can literally outlast your entire spellbook worth of damage? I’m listening.“
Answer: The arrogance with the “I’m listening.”... I love it. When you say this message I’m sure your joking as I could spout off many many spells that would just stop your fighter from doing anything or just destroy them with prep like:
Force Cage (I find myself saying this one a lot haha), Force Wall, Any of the other wall spells (that are physical so not wall of fire), Maze, Like any save or suck spell, time stop into magnificent mansion enter it then close the door way and cast sequester and set for whatever very long time to wait for the dwarf to die of age or you could then enter your Demiplane for some good old prep time, can just planeshift/teleport away for prep, you could also while in prep time make a simulacrum then cast magic jar enter your simulacrum then cast true polymorph your true self then wait and enter yourself as an adult gold dragon or an ancient brass dragon, then there is always more shenanigans or you could just multi-disintegrate your opponent until there dead or whatever as there is so much to be able to be done.
These are just some of the things that come to mind there is more if you want me to continue.
Love the actual effort being put in, but you're not even considering that there's lots of counters to those spells.
So now I'll put in the effort too! Because we're cheesing, I'll switch up and use a Yuan-ti Champion. With Bless, Misty Step, Resistance Cantrip, Guidance Cantrip, Resilient Wisdom, Indomitable (3x), Magic Resistance, Survivor Healing for 9 HP per round, 21 AC, it can survive up to 300 rounds of Sickening Radiance/Wall of Force shenanigans easily (and probably more). (let me know if you want the python script I wrote to calculate this all out)
Also, this build doesn't care about your Plane Shifting or your prep. Go ahead. You can even take your Magic Jar prep, your Forcecage prep, your Invulnerability prep... whatever thousands of gold you'll need to cast all of those. My build doesn't even care if you cast Invulnerability. It waits out your entire spell list and ignores your casting while it just sits and waits for you to try something novel.
I'll take a Ring of Protection +1 and skip all the gold to make it fair. With a Ring of Protection the YTC can endure unlimited amounts of Sickening Radiance without even using Indomitable (97% success rate). That's 3 exhaustion by the time your Sickening Radiance fades and I'm back to zero exhaustion. Damage-wise, you can't possible do enough damage to outpace the healing rate of Survivor - your hit rate is too low, and you can't target enough saves to counteract it. And what is the Champion doing? Sitting there casting Resistance, tapping his fingers absent-mindedly.
I mean, feel free to list some spells that you think will manage and I can run the numbers for you.
Disintegration, for example. 75 damage on a failed save, 0 on a successful save. Dex save with Indomitable will save 80% of the time. So in effect, you're doing about 75 damage 20% of the time and 0 the other 80% of the time. That means your average output will be about 15 dmg per round. Well, after what... 4 Disintegrates you'll have done 60 dmg on average. And after the 2-4 rounds it takes to cast all that, I'll have regenerated 18-36hp of it.
"But Meteor Swarm!" 130 damage on a failed save, 65 damage on a successful save. Dex save with Indomitable will save 80% of the time again. So (20% x 130) + (80% x 65) = 26 + 52 = 78 damage average.
And now you're getting down to level 5 damage spells - Immolation? 28 damage, 14 damage on a save. I wouldn't use Indom on this one, 66 chance of saving. (33% x 28) + (66% x 14) = 18.5 dmg. Regenerated in 2 rounds.
That's what I mean by imagination - actual numbers to the actual thing rather than dismissing it so simply. And this is without even adjusting the Racial scores to transfer Charisma and Intelligence scores. If I had that, I could fit in Shield Master to nullify direct damage almost directly, and even go for something like the Lucky feat to make it even easier.
EDIT: For reference, Meteor Swarm with Shield Master would have an average output of 23% of 130 = 30 dmg. With Indomitable, 11% of 130 = 15 dmg.
There are quite a few reasons that I think this is a mediocre build at best, especially for this situation.
1) You can't wear plate armour as you do not have the strength to do that
2) All your indomitables and resilients and magic resistances cannot account for spells that do not require saving throws and you are yet to prove that a champion fighter can effectively deal with a forcecage or wall of force or maze or the many non-damage, non-saving throw options that the wizard has.
3) You cannot just give fighter magic items since that opens so many avenues for magic items for wizards, especially with the arcane grimoires released in Tasha's Cauladron, The robe and staff of the archmagi. It's just fair to assume no magic items.
4) Resistance, Guidance and Bless all take actions to cast and this assumes you go first in combat (And if you look back, you'll see that the chrono wizard is very likely to win anyways) and doesn't help against the aforementioned non-saving throw spells
5) I realise I don't think material components and non-magical items have been discussed much. I think it is fair to assume that if we are dropping them in a cage match-like scenario then they can have pretty much any material components or NON-magical items. (Cos lets face it Lvl 20 characters aren't gonna worry that much about money or most components)
Overall this build just can't deal with the non-damage non-save options that the Wizard has.
None of the spells I used in my example require components beyond a simple component pouch.
Wish negates the need for components for Simulacrum due to the way the spell works. So the wizard with just starting equipment could make the plan work.
I would also second the idea that you have not addressed how a champion fighter would deal with no save spells (Maze in my example) as there is literally no counter they could do for said spell. They would just go to the Maze and constantly fail at the DC 20 Intelligence CHECK (not a save).
Also your math for the sickening radiance is wrong as they only have to fail 6 saves to die....which even with ADV and a +11 they will fail in a 100 saves most likely.
Its not the DAMAGE that kills them its the EXHAUSTION levels.
Also the Misty Step is either wasted or counter spelled.
Unless you actually do damage you are going to lose the fight and fairly easily as the wizards (yes 2 as you have to deal with a simulacrum) can repeat the wall of force/sickening radiance combo several times after you have wasted your misty step.
Honestly, and no offense, but that Dwarven Champion is easily one of the worst fighter builds the class could field in this challenge. No innate ways to protect against magic (or at least a chance to disrupt like the Arcane Archer), no innate initiative boosts, and the lack of Nova potential to even threaten a lucky round. And on top of that, its plan is to NOT attack. Like most of the other claims made in support of the fighter class, it makes a blatant mistake in assuming the battle is about nothing but trading damage.
The Wizard operates on another axis entirely.
I think OptimusGrimus showed a perfect example of how quickly the fight is effectively over when the Wizard has even one single chance to act. And as I've shown with the hobgoblin build, any Wizard can be built to survive the fighter's best damage outputs.
You lack imagination if you think you need to act first or nova strike to win a duel with a mage - what could you possibly do to defeat a Dwarven Champion build that can literally outlast your entire spellbook worth of damage? I’m listening.
Point One:
“You lack imagination if you think you need to act first or nova strike to win a duel with a mage”
Answer: “You lack imagination” no need for insult in a civil debate (I’m joshing you Idc). As with your new build of Endurance do you really think the only way a wizard can defeat you is through damage. As with how viable it is I would put it at the bottom tied with Eldritch Knight.
The Builds So far are: Do tell if I’ve missed any
1. The Arcane Archer Try to go first then somehow double banish the wizard and deal enough damage to kill a AC 23, 100 - 162 hp wizard (Though Funnily enough is the most viable sitting at first)
2. The Samurai Nova, The Pure Battlemaster Feat God Uber Nova Mega Pro Thingy
3. The Enduring Dwarf (That Hp Guy who regenerates), The Eldritch Knight (The sad wizard who wants to be a wizard but can’t as is too sad)
The most viable chance to win is the go first then Nova the wizard build of which you were adamantly against.
Point two:
“what could you possibly do to defeat a Dwarven Champion build that can literally outlast your entire spellbook worth of damage? I’m listening.“
Answer: The arrogance with the “I’m listening.”... I love it. When you say this message I’m sure your joking as I could spout off many many spells that would just stop your fighter from doing anything or just destroy them with prep like:
Force Cage (I find myself saying this one a lot haha), Force Wall, Any of the other wall spells (that are physical so not wall of fire), Maze, Like any save or suck spell, time stop into magnificent mansion enter it then close the door way and cast sequester and set for whatever very long time to wait for the dwarf to die of age or you could then enter your Demiplane for some good old prep time, can just planeshift/teleport away for prep, you could also while in prep time make a simulacrum then cast magic jar enter your simulacrum then cast true polymorph your true self then wait and enter yourself as an adult gold dragon or an ancient brass dragon, then there is always more shenanigans or you could just multi-disintegrate your opponent until there dead or whatever as there is so much to be able to be done.
These are just some of the things that come to mind there is more if you want me to continue.
Love the actual effort being put in, but you're not even considering that there's lots of counters to those spells.
So now I'll put in the effort too! Because we're cheesing, I'll switch up and use a Yuan-ti Champion. With Bless, Misty Step, Resistance Cantrip, Guidance Cantrip, Resilient Wisdom, Indomitable (3x), Magic Resistance, Survivor Healing for 9 HP per round, 21 AC, it can survive up to 300 rounds of Sickening Radiance/Wall of Force shenanigans easily (and probably more). (let me know if you want the python script I wrote to calculate this all out)
Also, this build doesn't care about your Plane Shifting or your prep. Go ahead. You can even take your Magic Jar prep, your Forcecage prep, your Invulnerability prep... whatever thousands of gold you'll need to cast all of those. My build doesn't even care if you cast Invulnerability. It waits out your entire spell list and ignores your casting while it just sits and waits for you to try something novel.
I'll take a Ring of Protection +1 and skip all the gold to make it fair. With a Ring of Protection the YTC can endure unlimited amounts of Sickening Radiance without even using Indomitable (97% success rate). That's 3 exhaustion by the time your Sickening Radiance fades and I'm back to zero exhaustion. Damage-wise, you can't possible do enough damage to outpace the healing rate of Survivor - your hit rate is too low, and you can't target enough saves to counteract it. And what is the Champion doing? Sitting there casting Resistance, tapping his fingers absent-mindedly.
I mean, feel free to list some spells that you think will manage and I can run the numbers for you.
Disintegration, for example. 75 damage on a failed save, 0 on a successful save. Dex save with Indomitable will save 80% of the time. So in effect, you're doing about 75 damage 20% of the time and 0 the other 80% of the time. That means your average output will be about 15 dmg per round. Well, after what... 4 Disintegrates you'll have done 60 dmg on average. And after the 2-4 rounds it takes to cast all that, I'll have regenerated 18-36hp of it.
"But Meteor Swarm!" 130 damage on a failed save, 65 damage on a successful save. Dex save with Indomitable will save 80% of the time again. So (20% x 130) + (80% x 65) = 26 + 52 = 78 damage average.
And now you're getting down to level 5 damage spells - Immolation? 28 damage, 14 damage on a save. I wouldn't use Indom on this one, 66 chance of saving. (33% x 28) + (66% x 14) = 18.5 dmg. Regenerated in 2 rounds.
That's what I mean by imagination - actual numbers to the actual thing rather than dismissing it so simply. And this is without even adjusting the Racial scores to transfer Charisma and Intelligence scores. If I had that, I could fit in Shield Master to nullify direct damage almost directly, and even go for something like the Lucky feat to make it even easier.
EDIT: For reference, Meteor Swarm with Shield Master would have an average output of 23% of 130 = 30 dmg. With Indomitable, 11% of 130 = 15 dmg.
Hahaha you underestimated my builds Brewksy. Though I do admire your determination against such a great threat (The Wizard).
Point One:
“Love the actual effort being put in”
Answer: Haha, I send my thanks good sir Brewksy.
Point two:
“but you're not even considering that there's lots of counters to those spells.”
Answer: Your counter to my infinite prep, spells without saves, and my amazing shenanigan builds I doubt that.
Point three:
“So now I'll put in the effort too! Because we're cheesing, I'll switch up and use a Yuan-ti Champion. With Bless, Misty Step, Resistance Cantrip, Guidance Cantrip, Resilient Wisdom, Indomitable (3x), Magic Resistance, Survivor Healing for 9 HP per round, 21 AC, it can survive up to 300 rounds of Sickening Radiance/Wall of Force shenanigans easily (and probably more). (let me know if you want the python script I wrote to calculate this all out)”
Answer: As with the yuan-to I say good race choice but it won’t save you. Bless, Guidance, Resistance all are concentration and require an action do cast so not the best spells but sure. Indomitable it is a reroll not a success (if you don’t know). With the Survivor regeneration it only works when you are under half health.
As with the sickening radiance and wall of force both of those require concentration but that could be easily remedied with force cage. And sicking radiance’s exhaustion disappears after 10 minute as per the spell. When you say Can survive 300 rounds I presume you mean the damage but yeah it inflicts exhaustion and all you need is to fail 6 of 60 rounds in the spell to die.
With the python script I’d like to see it given that you make the required adjustments where need if any at all but that’s me so ehh.
Point four:
“ "But Meteor Swarm!" 130 damage on a failed save, 65 damage on a successful save. Dex save with Indomitable will save 80% of the time again. So (20% x 130) + (80% x 65) = 26 + 52 = 78 damage average.”
Answer: I don’t think I ever talked much about meteor swarm but yeah in reality it would be good in war (Armies) not so much in a dual haha. Just saying I don’t know why any one would want to waste a 9th level spell with MeTeOR sWarM. But yeah it ain’t the best for this dual per say.
Point Five:
“And now you're getting down to level 5 damage spells - Immolation? 28 damage, 14 damage on a save. I wouldn't use Indom on this one, 66 chance of saving. (33% x 28) + (66% x 14) = 18.5 dmg. Regenerated in 2 rounds.”
Answer why would I waste such spells on a fighter like that, why do I throw weak damage spells that don’t do much when I can do things much better. Then again the regeneration is when you are under half health. Anyways why do I need to kill you by damage right when the battle starts I can wait and prep to my hearts content also there is a cantrip the stops healing (your regeneration) it’s called Chill Touch (Yes the name is misleading haha).
Point Six:
“That's what I mean by imagination - actual numbers to the actual thing rather than dismissing it so simply.”
Answer: There is no need for numbers (don’t take this out of context) as the wizard can employ such strong tactics like Becoming an ancient brass dragon with his class levels and everything, or sequester for thousands of years I find your build interesting but quite defeat-able. I don’t think I dismissed it so simply but I do get what your saying.
Point Seven:
“And this is without even adjusting the Racial scores to transfer Charisma and Intelligence scores. If I had that, I could fit in Shield Master to nullify direct damage almost directly, and even go for something like the Lucky feat to make it even easier.”
Answer: I don’t need spell damage to kill you there are many ways to defeat you otherwise. Though lucky would be helpful it would only delay the inevitable.
Still you haven’t introduced a way your build would deal with one of the many builds I proposed like the magic jar, simulacrum, true polymorph in an different plane to become a permanent whatever thingy (Ancient Brass Dragon, Adult Gold Dragon, etc). Nor can you beat the Sequester build where you just die of age as I am in stasis for however long is needed.
Now what if I use true polymorph and become like a Sphinx or Rakshasa to become immune to non magical, bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage. There are more builds and things to go over but I think I’ve done enough.
As with material components they have their costs paid for. As with the Large amount of AC you can only have normal gear no magic items as many have said. There’s more to write but this is super long.
Please tell if I missed something or would like me to address something.
Alright here is my Hobgoblin Abjuration Wizard, Dread. I've only filled out 18/44 known spells and I have 14/23 prepared slots filled so there is plenty of room to grow, even though I don't think it's necessary. I challenge any Fighter to best this build.
Anyone that gets stuck in a series of domes (all of em, except EK) gets to watch Dread populate his own rave with simulacrum-wish chains until he decides to let them out and pelt them to death with magic missiles.
The EK poses an interesting dilemma because it has access to counterspell/dispel magic itself, but it only has 3 third level slots and 1 fourth level slot. Their DPS is also nothing impressive, and if they're using actions to dispel magic then they're really not doing anything to pressure Dread.
How does improved invisibility and enough slots for multiple polymorphs not win the fight for the wizard?
There are several ways the wizard wins without having to deal with damage is the major point. If they ever manage to get a polymorph off they could PWK the fighter and they die instantly.
You could get really cruel with it (assuming you had the components which is fair to say you might not in this particular case) and polymorph them then cast Imprisonment and bury the fighter forever to never die far beneath the earth where no one knows where they are at.
They could True Polymorph the fighter into a rock and toss it in the ocean.
Barring all this they could simply Wish the fighter to be their friend and not attack them. AKA Friendship from Mortal Kombat.
They could Dominate Person the fighter at a high enough level to control them for 8 hours. You teleport (now a willing creature!) into a kings hall and have the fighter openly attack the king. Or into a dragon's lair and steal its horde. You could go as dark as having the fighter kill his own family and friends and have to live with that.....
In no universe does a fighter win without doing damage....its just the absolutely worst possible strategy to just try to absorb damage.
The wizard has SO MANY ways of winning without even worrying about damage at all.
How does improved invisibility and enough slots for multiple polymorphs not win the fight for the wizard?
There are several ways the wizard wins without having to deal with damage is the major point. If they ever manage to get a polymorph off they could PWK the fighter and they die instantly.
You could get really cruel with it (assuming you had the components which is fair to say you might not in this particular case) and polymorph them then cast Imprisonment and bury the fighter forever to never die far beneath the earth where no one knows where they are at.
They could True Polymorph the fighter into a rock and toss it in the ocean.
Barring all this they could simply Wish the fighter to be their friend and not attack them. AKA Friendship from Mortal Kombat.
The wizard has SO MANY ways of winning without even worrying about damage at all.
Or you time stop, magnificent mansion, Demiplane, then sequester for 1000 years and wake up with them dead. You could time stop magnificent mansion, Demiplane, long rest, simulacrum, magic jar, simulacrum cast true polymorph on your prime self then return as whatever with all of your class levels. Or you could true polymorph into a Sphinx, or Rakshasa and be immune to no magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. There’s more too!
Alight here is my Hobgoblin Abjuration Wizard. I've only filled out 15/44 known spells and I have 13/23 prepared slots filled so there is plenty of room to grow, even though I don't think it's necessary. I challenge any Fighter to best this build.
Why? Abjuration I get that it doesn’t matter as the fighter build won’t kill you but still. Also how did you get half plate?
Alight here is my Hobgoblin Abjuration Wizard. I've only filled out 15/44 known spells and I have 13/23 prepared slots filled so there is plenty of room to grow, even though I don't think it's necessary. I challenge any Fighter to best this build.
Why? Abjuration I get that it doesn’t matter as the fighter build won’t kill you but still. Also how did you get half plate?
Moderately Armored is the first feat that build picks up thanks to hobgoblin proficiency in light armor. Abjuration is chosen to create an extra buffer against the Nova builds that have Fey Touched to escape the first wall of force/force cage.
My thought process behind this build is to eliminate the need to win initiative (even if multiple wizard builds are damn near guaranteed to win it), and therefore eliminate the chance of the fighter getting lucky and going first and then getting lucky again and killing in one turn. Just can't happen against Dread.
Edit: As for the gold cost of half-plate, I mean we have fighters presenting builds in plate. So...yeah. I don't think it's an issue. No one said "only starting equipment", the only restriction of the kind is no magic items.
Alight here is my Hobgoblin Abjuration Wizard. I've only filled out 15/44 known spells and I have 13/23 prepared slots filled so there is plenty of room to grow, even though I don't think it's necessary. I challenge any Fighter to best this build.
Why? Abjuration I get that it doesn’t matter as the fighter build won’t kill you but still. Also how did you get half plate?
Moderately Armored is the first feat that build picks up thanks to hobgoblin proficiency in light armor. Abjuration is chosen to create an extra buffer against the Nova builds that have Fey Touched to escape the first wall of force/force cage.
My thought process behind this build is to eliminate the need to win initiative (even if multiple wizard builds are damn near guaranteed to win it), and therefore eliminate the chance of the fighter getting lucky and going first and then getting lucky again and killing in one turn. Just can't happen against Dread.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
Well the more you stray the bigger the lines are drawn if I magical items are I the realm of reality then I get an infinite amount of health potions, or have half plate or whatever. Once you start to break the norm that is set the lines are blurred and your “half plate” and the reasoning behind it of it “not an unreasonable item to add to a build” is quite dangerous when also then put with the next sentence of “The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items” makes me be able to say or no magic items but anything I want that isn’t “an unreasonable item to add to a build” or magic means the lines are blurred to such a great extent that the fighter and wizard can in those perimeters acquire adamantine armor, health potions (the non magic version made from herbs per say) and more NOW do you see my problem with your statement? Of course I do get what you try to mean but well I think I repeated myself enough.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
Bladesinger is another interesting route as well. You would have a passive AC of 23 with INT/DEX maxed and Mage Armor. You would boost that to an insane 28 AC with shield reaction.
Or you could simply see if they hit and completely mitigate the damage with a lower level slot. With Tough you would have 164 hp which even against the most nova of nova's (Samurai) you would be ok as even with the average damage and ADV on the strikes you would have about 40 HP left after the nova first round.
The only real build that has been close to victory is the Arcane Archer build mentioned which utilized the banishing arrow which is the best strategy I have seen so far....as long as they go first.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
Bladesinger is another interesting route as well. You would have a passive AC of 23 with INT/DEX maxed and Mage Armor. You would boost that to an insane 28 AC with shield reaction.
Or you could simply see if they hit and completely mitigate the damage with a lower level slot. With Tough you would have 164 hp which even against the most nova of nova's (Samurai) you would be ok as even with the average damage and ADV on the strikes you would have about 40 HP left after the nova first round.
The only real build that has been close to victory is the Arcane Archer build mentioned which utilized the banishing arrow which is the best strategy I have seen so far....as long as they go first.
Point One
“Bladesinger is another interesting route as well. You would have a passive AC of 23 with INT/DEX maxed and Mage Armor. You would boost that to an insane 28 AC with shield reaction.”
Answer: True the AC possibility is great but the lack of initiative or roll manipulation is its downfall as the Arcane Archer build can kill the wizard even if it’s very hard. It the reason I didn’t concern myself with Bladesinger as I thought it had a hard time with initiative and the possibility of Nova even if minimal.
Point two:
“Or you could simply see if they hit and completely mitigate the damage with a lower level slot. With Tough you would have 164 hp which even against the most nova of nova's (Samurai) you would be ok as even with the average damage and ADV on the strikes you would have about 40 HP left after the nova first round.”
Answer: Ehh true enough.
Point Three:
“The only real build that has been close to victory is the Arcane Archer build mentioned which utilized the banishing arrow which is the best strategy I have seen so far....as long as they go first.”
Answer: Yep the Arcane Archer is the best bet even if unlikely as it Nova can probably kill the wizard. As with the first the Arcane archer can go first...
so how does the Archer get to go first well I‘lvl answer it. We are under the assumption that the wizard and archer try everything to beat the other in initiative.
The Archer: 20 Dex (+5), Alert (+5), Martial Adept (Maneuver: Ambush 1d8), and Lucky (Can bypass Convergent Future with a single roll). Total 10 + 1d8 + Lucky.
That means if the wizard uses convergent future archer can use lucky do a single reroll and beat the Wizard on the check (assuming the wizard somehow fails/rolls like utter garbage). But since the wizard knows this he will use Chronal Shift on himself to gain advantage with his lucky for a possible 3 rolls to the fighters 2 (So then it is back into the hands of Lady Luck but in the wizards favour). So in fact it is possible but extremely improbable as the wizard just beats out the fighter’s initiative but that doesn’t mean he can’t win just mean like really improbable.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
Well the more you stray the bigger the lines are drawn if I magical items are I the realm of reality then I get an infinite amount of health potions, or have half plate or whatever. Once you start to break the norm that is set the lines are blurred and your “half plate” and the reasoning behind it of it “not an unreasonable item to add to a build” is quite dangerous when also then put with the next sentence of “The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items” makes me be able to say or no magic items but anything I want that isn’t “an unreasonable item to add to a build” or magic means the lines are blurred to such a great extent that the fighter and wizard can in those perimeters acquire adamantine armor, health potions (the non magic version made from herbs per say) and more NOW do you see my problem with your statement? Of course I do get what you try to mean but well I think I repeated myself enough.
I get where you're coming from. I don't see the same slippery slope existing for mundane items though. A level 20 character is expected to have the money for better armor by then. I don't think anyone is going to see a wizard with half-plate and say "well now I get a metric shit-ton of healing potions", which is both clearly cheesy and not even effective against a Wizard. Adamantine and Mithral are considered magic items, so those are a no go to begin with.
What 5e has actively worked towards is reducing the frequency and reliability of acquiring magic items. Magic items are where you see things like the Oathbow that creates viable builds all on its own. Nothing mundane has that kind of power.
By the way, Dread absolutely dumps on the Arcane Archer, which I agree is the best fighter build presented so far. He lets the AA go first, fails his saving throws, and is left at around half HP thanks to magic resistance and the ward, even after 3 rounds of hex boosted arrows.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
Well the more you stray the bigger the lines are drawn if I magical items are I the realm of reality then I get an infinite amount of health potions, or have half plate or whatever. Once you start to break the norm that is set the lines are blurred and your “half plate” and the reasoning behind it of it “not an unreasonable item to add to a build” is quite dangerous when also then put with the next sentence of “The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items” makes me be able to say or no magic items but anything I want that isn’t “an unreasonable item to add to a build” or magic means the lines are blurred to such a great extent that the fighter and wizard can in those perimeters acquire adamantine armor, health potions (the non magic version made from herbs per say) and more NOW do you see my problem with your statement? Of course I do get what you try to mean but well I think I repeated myself enough.
I get where you're coming from. I don't see the same slippery slope existing for mundane items though. A level 20 character is expected to have the money for better armor by then. I don't think anyone is going to see a wizard with half-plate and say "well now I get a metric shit-ton of healing potions", which is both clearly cheesy and not even effective against a Wizard. Adamantine and Mithral are considered magic items, so those are a no go to begin with.
What 5e has actively worked towards is reducing the frequency and reliability of acquiring magic items. Magic items are where you see things like the Oathbow that creates viable builds all on its own. Nothing mundane has that kind of power.
By the way, Dread absolutely dumps on the Arcane Archer, which I agree is the best fighter build presented so far. He lets the AA go first, fails his saving throws, and is left at around half HP thanks to magic resistance and the ward, even after 3 rounds of hex boosted arrows.
Point One:
”I get where you're coming from. I don't see the same slippery slope existing for mundane items though. A level 20 character is expected to have the money for better armor by then. I don't think anyone is going to see a wizard with half-plate and say "well now I get a metric shit-ton of healing potions", which is both clearly cheesy and not even effective against a Wizard.“
Answer: But there is a slippery slope as they can acquire anything that isn’t a “magical item” that means things like: Alchemy, Elixirs, health potions, poison, venom, anti venom, Armor/Weapons, specially forged Armor/Weapons, Arrows (Types), Specially made Arrows, mundane traps (Caltrops, Hunting/Bear), specially made traps, explosives (Black/Flash/Gun Powder), Guns (Depends), Bullets, specially made bullets, and MORE! As with healing potions they can help the fighter survive longer so ehh. You throw up a straw man of “metric-ton of healing potions” as if the idea was cheesy and not within the realm of just a fighter having a dozen pint health potions (I do get your sentiment though).
Point Two:
“Adamantine and Mithral are considered magic items, so those are a no go to begin with.”
Answer: Well... it may be under “Magic Items” but just as healing potion can be that doesn’t mean it is magical. As with adamantine it is an actual material from dnd meteors and extraordinary ore veins. Also both sliver and adamantine can be used as coatings for weapons and such also there is magic adamantine weapons and non magical weapons (+1 adamantine long sword vs adamantine longsword). Additionally, historically adamantine and mithral have been materials not magic made or magically infused materials. So I think it is just a streamlining thing with 5e to reduce confusion by just throwing in the unique material in with magic because... it’s unique therefore must be magic?
Point Three:
“What 5e has actively worked towards is reducing the frequency and reliability of acquiring magic items.”
Answer: As with Point Two. As you acknowledge that 5e has been changing how magic items are perceived in games.
Point Four:
”Magic items are where you see things like the Oathbow that creates viable builds all on its own.“
Answer: You act as if all magic items are like the Oathbow when you say “”Magic items are where you see things like” but hey that’s just me haha.
Point five:
“Nothing mundane has that kind of power.“
Answer: Muahhahahaahaha... ahem. Alchemy, Elixirs, health potions, poison, venom, anti venom, Armor/Weapons, specially forged Armor/Weapons, Arrows Types, Specially made Arrows, “mundane” traps, specially made traps, explosive powder, explosives, Guns, Bullets, specially made bullets, and MORE! This is also discounting the useful “mundane” objects like grappling hook, caltrops, ball bearings, ten-foot pole, and more. So yeah I get what you but I also don’t.
Point six:
“By the way, Dread absolutely dumps on the Arcane Archer, which I agree is the best fighter build presented so far. He lets the AA go first, fails his saving throws, and is left at around half HP thanks to magic resistance and the ward, even after 3 rounds of hex boosted arrows.“
Answer: I agree-ish as the amount of damage for a well done AA can be a lot. Although yeah your builds HP and AC are quite large being able to rival the Nova potential of both the AA, Samuri and perhaps the bAtTlE mASteR.
Let's just agree to disagree on the magic/mundane items stuff lol. Much love, I appreciate your points.
After running the numbers the AA can manage about 210 damage across 3 turns and 20 attacks with hex and banishing arrows against Dread. But that doesn't factor in his resistance to spell damage, so that number is cut down significantly. If the AA blows its load and uses both banishing arrows, then it has no meaningful way left to challenge concentration spells.
A Greatsword + Hex Battlemaster can reach just around 130 damage if they use precision attack and manage to land every one of their 8 hits. But again, that doesn't factor in spell resistance and assumes the precision attacks make the difference each time. And as a melee build will fall to a simple spell like Fly. Heavy Crossbow builds produce slightly less damage at around 120, which is enough for Dread to comfortably tank two turns of attacks if need be.
A Heavy Crossbow wielding Samurai reaches just under 130 themselves without the reliance on magic, but if they are forced to bonus action misty step out of a cage, then their damage for the turn goes down to 64 without Fighting Spirit.
I honestly don't think there is a fighter build that even has a chance of beating Dread.
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There are quite a few reasons that I think this is a mediocre build at best, especially for this situation.
1) You can't wear plate armour as you do not have the strength to do that
2) All your indomitables and resilients and magic resistances cannot account for spells that do not require saving throws and you are yet to prove that a champion fighter can effectively deal with a forcecage or wall of force or maze or the many non-damage, non-saving throw options that the wizard has.
3) You cannot just give fighter magic items since that opens so many avenues for magic items for wizards, especially with the arcane grimoires released in Tasha's Cauladron, The robe and staff of the archmagi. It's just fair to assume no magic items.
4) Resistance, Guidance and Bless all take actions to cast and this assumes you go first in combat (And if you look back, you'll see that the chrono wizard is very likely to win anyways) and doesn't help against the aforementioned non-saving throw spells
5) I realise I don't think material components and non-magical items have been discussed much. I think it is fair to assume that if we are dropping them in a cage match-like scenario then they can have pretty much any material components or NON-magical items. (Cos lets face it Lvl 20 characters aren't gonna worry that much about money or most components)
Overall this build just can't deal with the non-damage non-save options that the Wizard has.
Also about the components....
None of the spells I used in my example require components beyond a simple component pouch.
Wish negates the need for components for Simulacrum due to the way the spell works. So the wizard with just starting equipment could make the plan work.
I would also second the idea that you have not addressed how a champion fighter would deal with no save spells (Maze in my example) as there is literally no counter they could do for said spell. They would just go to the Maze and constantly fail at the DC 20 Intelligence CHECK (not a save).
Also your math for the sickening radiance is wrong as they only have to fail 6 saves to die....which even with ADV and a +11 they will fail in a 100 saves most likely.
Its not the DAMAGE that kills them its the EXHAUSTION levels.
Also the Misty Step is either wasted or counter spelled.
Unless you actually do damage you are going to lose the fight and fairly easily as the wizards (yes 2 as you have to deal with a simulacrum) can repeat the wall of force/sickening radiance combo several times after you have wasted your misty step.
Hahaha you underestimated my builds Brewksy. Though I do admire your determination against such a great threat (The Wizard).
Point One:
“Love the actual effort being put in”
Answer: Haha, I send my thanks good sir Brewksy.
Point two:
“but you're not even considering that there's lots of counters to those spells.”
Answer: Your counter to my infinite prep, spells without saves, and my amazing shenanigan builds I doubt that.
Point three:
“So now I'll put in the effort too! Because we're cheesing, I'll switch up and use a Yuan-ti Champion. With Bless, Misty Step, Resistance Cantrip, Guidance Cantrip, Resilient Wisdom, Indomitable (3x), Magic Resistance, Survivor Healing for 9 HP per round, 21 AC, it can survive up to 300 rounds of Sickening Radiance/Wall of Force shenanigans easily (and probably more). (let me know if you want the python script I wrote to calculate this all out)”
Answer: As with the yuan-to I say good race choice but it won’t save you. Bless, Guidance, Resistance all are concentration and require an action do cast so not the best spells but sure. Indomitable it is a reroll not a success (if you don’t know). With the Survivor regeneration it only works when you are under half health.
As with the sickening radiance and wall of force both of those require concentration but that could be easily remedied with force cage. And sicking radiance’s exhaustion disappears after 10 minute as per the spell. When you say Can survive 300 rounds I presume you mean the damage but yeah it inflicts exhaustion and all you need is to fail 6 of 60 rounds in the spell to die.
With the python script I’d like to see it given that you make the required adjustments where need if any at all but that’s me so ehh.
Point four:
“ "But Meteor Swarm!" 130 damage on a failed save, 65 damage on a successful save. Dex save with Indomitable will save 80% of the time again. So (20% x 130) + (80% x 65) = 26 + 52 = 78 damage average.”
Answer: I don’t think I ever talked much about meteor swarm but yeah in reality it would be good in war (Armies) not so much in a dual haha. Just saying I don’t know why any one would want to waste a 9th level spell with MeTeOR sWarM. But yeah it ain’t the best for this dual per say.
Point Five:
“And now you're getting down to level 5 damage spells - Immolation? 28 damage, 14 damage on a save. I wouldn't use Indom on this one, 66 chance of saving. (33% x 28) + (66% x 14) = 18.5 dmg. Regenerated in 2 rounds.”
Answer why would I waste such spells on a fighter like that, why do I throw weak damage spells that don’t do much when I can do things much better. Then again the regeneration is when you are under half health. Anyways why do I need to kill you by damage right when the battle starts I can wait and prep to my hearts content also there is a cantrip the stops healing (your regeneration) it’s called Chill Touch (Yes the name is misleading haha).
Point Six:
“That's what I mean by imagination - actual numbers to the actual thing rather than dismissing it so simply.”
Answer: There is no need for numbers (don’t take this out of context) as the wizard can employ such strong tactics like Becoming an ancient brass dragon with his class levels and everything, or sequester for thousands of years I find your build interesting but quite defeat-able. I don’t think I dismissed it so simply but I do get what your saying.
Point Seven:
“And this is without even adjusting the Racial scores to transfer Charisma and Intelligence scores. If I had that, I could fit in Shield Master to nullify direct damage almost directly, and even go for something like the Lucky feat to make it even easier.”
Answer: I don’t need spell damage to kill you there are many ways to defeat you otherwise. Though lucky would be helpful it would only delay the inevitable.
Still you haven’t introduced a way your build would deal with one of the many builds I proposed like the magic jar, simulacrum, true polymorph in an different plane to become a permanent whatever thingy (Ancient Brass Dragon, Adult Gold Dragon, etc). Nor can you beat the Sequester build where you just die of age as I am in stasis for however long is needed.
Now what if I use true polymorph and become like a Sphinx or Rakshasa to become immune to non magical, bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage. There are more builds and things to go over but I think I’ve done enough.
As with material components they have their costs paid for. As with the Large amount of AC you can only have normal gear no magic items as many have said. There’s more to write but this is super long.
Please tell if I missed something or would like me to address something.
How does improved invisibility and enough slots for multiple polymorphs not win the fight for the wizard?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/HeironymusZot/characters/43133538
Alright here is my Hobgoblin Abjuration Wizard, Dread. I've only filled out 18/44 known spells and I have 14/23 prepared slots filled so there is plenty of room to grow, even though I don't think it's necessary. I challenge any Fighter to best this build.
Anyone that gets stuck in a series of domes (all of em, except EK) gets to watch Dread populate his own rave with simulacrum-wish chains until he decides to let them out and pelt them to death with magic missiles.
The EK poses an interesting dilemma because it has access to counterspell/dispel magic itself, but it only has 3 third level slots and 1 fourth level slot. Their DPS is also nothing impressive, and if they're using actions to dispel magic then they're really not doing anything to pressure Dread.
There are several ways the wizard wins without having to deal with damage is the major point. If they ever manage to get a polymorph off they could PWK the fighter and they die instantly.
You could get really cruel with it (assuming you had the components which is fair to say you might not in this particular case) and polymorph them then cast Imprisonment and bury the fighter forever to never die far beneath the earth where no one knows where they are at.
They could True Polymorph the fighter into a rock and toss it in the ocean.
Barring all this they could simply Wish the fighter to be their friend and not attack them. AKA Friendship from Mortal Kombat.
They could Dominate Person the fighter at a high enough level to control them for 8 hours. You teleport (now a willing creature!) into a kings hall and have the fighter openly attack the king. Or into a dragon's lair and steal its horde. You could go as dark as having the fighter kill his own family and friends and have to live with that.....
In no universe does a fighter win without doing damage....its just the absolutely worst possible strategy to just try to absorb damage.
The wizard has SO MANY ways of winning without even worrying about damage at all.
Just teleport to the nearest active volcano, yeet the polymorphed fighter in, done.
Or you time stop, magnificent mansion, Demiplane, then sequester for 1000 years and wake up with them dead. You could time stop magnificent mansion, Demiplane, long rest, simulacrum, magic jar, simulacrum cast true polymorph on your prime self then return as whatever with all of your class levels. Or you could true polymorph into a Sphinx, or Rakshasa and be immune to no magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. There’s more too!
Why? Abjuration I get that it doesn’t matter as the fighter build won’t kill you but still. Also how did you get half plate?
Hobgoblins get medium armor.....
I know that... Half plate costs 750gp way out of the wizards starting gold even if a noble and selling all items or getting highest gold amount.
Moderately Armored is the first feat that build picks up thanks to hobgoblin proficiency in light armor. Abjuration is chosen to create an extra buffer against the Nova builds that have Fey Touched to escape the first wall of force/force cage.
My thought process behind this build is to eliminate the need to win initiative (even if multiple wizard builds are damn near guaranteed to win it), and therefore eliminate the chance of the fighter getting lucky and going first and then getting lucky again and killing in one turn. Just can't happen against Dread.
Edit: As for the gold cost of half-plate, I mean we have fighters presenting builds in plate. So...yeah. I don't think it's an issue. No one said "only starting equipment", the only restriction of the kind is no magic items.
I know that but this:
Half Plate costs 750gp you don’t have that money. Also why not just resort to mage armor (13) plus a 20 (+5 Dex) and a shield to get a 20 AC not 19.
As Mae armor per previous discussion equates to the fighters armor.
I think you missed my edit De4thkn1ght. I don't think this is a "starting equipment only" contest. Half-Plate is not an unreasonable item to add to a build. The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items.
There aren't enough ASIs to support the Dex build you're suggesting while maximizing HP. Sure, there are plenty of ways to tweak this build that will have less HP, but get their AC to a good level in different ways.
Well the more you stray the bigger the lines are drawn if I magical items are I the realm of reality then I get an infinite amount of health potions, or have half plate or whatever. Once you start to break the norm that is set the lines are blurred and your “half plate” and the reasoning behind it of it “not an unreasonable item to add to a build” is quite dangerous when also then put with the next sentence of “The only thing that should be restricted is the use of magic items” makes me be able to say or no magic items but anything I want that isn’t “an unreasonable item to add to a build” or magic means the lines are blurred to such a great extent that the fighter and wizard can in those perimeters acquire adamantine armor, health potions (the non magic version made from herbs per say) and more NOW do you see my problem with your statement? Of course I do get what you try to mean but well I think I repeated myself enough.
Bladesinger is another interesting route as well. You would have a passive AC of 23 with INT/DEX maxed and Mage Armor. You would boost that to an insane 28 AC with shield reaction.
Or you could simply see if they hit and completely mitigate the damage with a lower level slot. With Tough you would have 164 hp which even against the most nova of nova's (Samurai) you would be ok as even with the average damage and ADV on the strikes you would have about 40 HP left after the nova first round.
The only real build that has been close to victory is the Arcane Archer build mentioned which utilized the banishing arrow which is the best strategy I have seen so far....as long as they go first.
Point One
“Bladesinger is another interesting route as well. You would have a passive AC of 23 with INT/DEX maxed and Mage Armor. You would boost that to an insane 28 AC with shield reaction.”
Answer: True the AC possibility is great but the lack of initiative or roll manipulation is its downfall as the Arcane Archer build can kill the wizard even if it’s very hard. It the reason I didn’t concern myself with Bladesinger as I thought it had a hard time with initiative and the possibility of Nova even if minimal.
Point two:
“Or you could simply see if they hit and completely mitigate the damage with a lower level slot. With Tough you would have 164 hp which even against the most nova of nova's (Samurai) you would be ok as even with the average damage and ADV on the strikes you would have about 40 HP left after the nova first round.”
Answer: Ehh true enough.
Point Three:
“The only real build that has been close to victory is the Arcane Archer build mentioned which utilized the banishing arrow which is the best strategy I have seen so far....as long as they go first.”
Answer: Yep the Arcane Archer is the best bet even if unlikely as it Nova can probably kill the wizard. As with the first the Arcane archer can go first...
so how does the Archer get to go first well I‘lvl answer it. We are under the assumption that the wizard and archer try everything to beat the other in initiative.
The Archer: 20 Dex (+5), Alert (+5), Martial Adept (Maneuver: Ambush 1d8), and Lucky (Can bypass Convergent Future with a single roll). Total 10 + 1d8 + Lucky.
The Wizard: 20 Dex (+5), Alert (+5), Martial Adept (Maneuver: Ambush 1d8), Temporal Awarness (20 Int: +5), and Lucky. Total: 15 + 1d8 + Lucky.
That means if the wizard uses convergent future archer can use lucky do a single reroll and beat the Wizard on the check (assuming the wizard somehow fails/rolls like utter garbage). But since the wizard knows this he will use Chronal Shift on himself to gain advantage with his lucky for a possible 3 rolls to the fighters 2 (So then it is back into the hands of Lady Luck but in the wizards favour). So in fact it is possible but extremely improbable as the wizard just beats out the fighter’s initiative but that doesn’t mean he can’t win just mean like really improbable.
I get where you're coming from. I don't see the same slippery slope existing for mundane items though. A level 20 character is expected to have the money for better armor by then. I don't think anyone is going to see a wizard with half-plate and say "well now I get a metric shit-ton of healing potions", which is both clearly cheesy and not even effective against a Wizard. Adamantine and Mithral are considered magic items, so those are a no go to begin with.
What 5e has actively worked towards is reducing the frequency and reliability of acquiring magic items. Magic items are where you see things like the Oathbow that creates viable builds all on its own. Nothing mundane has that kind of power.
By the way, Dread absolutely dumps on the Arcane Archer, which I agree is the best fighter build presented so far. He lets the AA go first, fails his saving throws, and is left at around half HP thanks to magic resistance and the ward, even after 3 rounds of hex boosted arrows.
Point One:
”I get where you're coming from. I don't see the same slippery slope existing for mundane items though. A level 20 character is expected to have the money for better armor by then. I don't think anyone is going to see a wizard with half-plate and say "well now I get a metric shit-ton of healing potions", which is both clearly cheesy and not even effective against a Wizard.“
Answer: But there is a slippery slope as they can acquire anything that isn’t a “magical item” that means things like: Alchemy, Elixirs, health potions, poison, venom, anti venom, Armor/Weapons, specially forged Armor/Weapons, Arrows (Types), Specially made Arrows, mundane traps (Caltrops, Hunting/Bear), specially made traps, explosives (Black/Flash/Gun Powder), Guns (Depends), Bullets, specially made bullets, and MORE! As with healing potions they can help the fighter survive longer so ehh. You throw up a straw man of “metric-ton of healing potions” as if the idea was cheesy and not within the realm of just a fighter having a dozen pint health potions (I do get your sentiment though).
Point Two:
“Adamantine and Mithral are considered magic items, so those are a no go to begin with.”
Answer: Well... it may be under “Magic Items” but just as healing potion can be that doesn’t mean it is magical. As with adamantine it is an actual material from dnd meteors and extraordinary ore veins. Also both sliver and adamantine can be used as coatings for weapons and such also there is magic adamantine weapons and non magical weapons (+1 adamantine long sword vs adamantine longsword). Additionally, historically adamantine and mithral have been materials not magic made or magically infused materials. So I think it is just a streamlining thing with 5e to reduce confusion by just throwing in the unique material in with magic because... it’s unique therefore must be magic?
Point Three:
“What 5e has actively worked towards is reducing the frequency and reliability of acquiring magic items.”
Answer: As with Point Two. As you acknowledge that 5e has been changing how magic items are perceived in games.
Point Four:
”Magic items are where you see things like the Oathbow that creates viable builds all on its own.“
Answer: You act as if all magic items are like the Oathbow when you say “”Magic items are where you see things like” but hey that’s just me haha.
Point five:
“Nothing mundane has that kind of power.“
Answer: Muahhahahaahaha... ahem. Alchemy, Elixirs, health potions, poison, venom, anti venom, Armor/Weapons, specially forged Armor/Weapons, Arrows Types, Specially made Arrows, “mundane” traps, specially made traps, explosive powder, explosives, Guns, Bullets, specially made bullets, and MORE! This is also discounting the useful “mundane” objects like grappling hook, caltrops, ball bearings, ten-foot pole, and more. So yeah I get what you but I also don’t.
Point six:
“By the way, Dread absolutely dumps on the Arcane Archer, which I agree is the best fighter build presented so far. He lets the AA go first, fails his saving throws, and is left at around half HP thanks to magic resistance and the ward, even after 3 rounds of hex boosted arrows.“
Answer: I agree-ish as the amount of damage for a well done AA can be a lot. Although yeah your builds HP and AC are quite large being able to rival the Nova potential of both the AA, Samuri and perhaps the bAtTlE mASteR.
Let's just agree to disagree on the magic/mundane items stuff lol. Much love, I appreciate your points.
After running the numbers the AA can manage about 210 damage across 3 turns and 20 attacks with hex and banishing arrows against Dread. But that doesn't factor in his resistance to spell damage, so that number is cut down significantly. If the AA blows its load and uses both banishing arrows, then it has no meaningful way left to challenge concentration spells.
A Greatsword + Hex Battlemaster can reach just around 130 damage if they use precision attack and manage to land every one of their 8 hits. But again, that doesn't factor in spell resistance and assumes the precision attacks make the difference each time. And as a melee build will fall to a simple spell like Fly. Heavy Crossbow builds produce slightly less damage at around 120, which is enough for Dread to comfortably tank two turns of attacks if need be.
A Heavy Crossbow wielding Samurai reaches just under 130 themselves without the reliance on magic, but if they are forced to bonus action misty step out of a cage, then their damage for the turn goes down to 64 without Fighting Spirit.
I honestly don't think there is a fighter build that even has a chance of beating Dread.