If you have to remove features from one combatant to make the fight "fair" then you have your answer.
If your saying both classes having all their resources is "stacking in the wizards favor" you have already answered the question being asked.
Incorrect. Feel free to refer to literally all of my posts if you ever care to find out why.
It's not refusing to take part it's refusing to agree to a shitty premise.
Thanks for confirming your lack of intention to ever participate in good faith, it will save us all time in responding to you. Thanks also for doing a wonderful job of demonstrating why the discussion (and all discussions with people adopting the mindset you're using here) is pointless.
Adopting a faulty assumption just so you can get the result you want is a classic fallacy; it doesn't support your argument, it makes it self-defeating.
To find out who would actually win in any 1v1 fight we'd need to figure out where the tipping point is between how many spell slots (and of what level) the wizard has and how likely they are to succeed. But this also requires some baseline in terms of degree of preparation and what we expect that to mean in terms of gold allowance for the fighter to do the same.
Then we might have a basis for an actual discussion, capable of finding an actual answer. Because thus far the answer is still "it depends".
But for you Optimus, I'm going to ask that you please stop replying to me if you're going to keep continuing to refuse to participate in good faith.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
If you have to remove features from one combatant to make the fight "fair" then you have your answer.
If your saying both classes having all their resources is "stacking in the wizards favor" you have already answered the question being asked.
Incorrect. Feel free to refer to literally all of my posts if you ever care to find out why.
It's not refusing to take part it's refusing to agree to a shitty premise.
Thanks for confirming your lack of intention to ever participate in good faith, it will save us all time in responding to you. Thanks also for doing a wonderful job of demonstrating why the discussion (and all discussions with people adopting the mindset you're using here) is pointless.
Adopting a faulty assumption just so you can get the result you want is a classic fallacy; it doesn't support your argument, it makes it self-defeating.
To find out who would actually win in any 1v1 fight we'd need to figure out where the tipping point is between how many spell slots (and of what level) the wizard has and how likely they are to succeed. But this also requires some baseline in terms of degree of preparation and what we expect that to mean in terms of gold allowance for the fighter to do the same.
Then we might have a basis for an actual discussion, capable of finding an actual answer. Because thus far the answer is still "it depends".
But for you Optimus, I'm going to ask that you please stop replying to me if you're going to keep continuing to refuse to participate in good faith.
I’m glad you are on this forum. I had the same idea.
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
If you have to remove features from one combatant to make the fight "fair" then you have your answer.
If your saying both classes having all their resources is "stacking in the wizards favor" you have already answered the question being asked.
Incorrect. Feel free to refer to literally all of my posts if you ever care to find out why.
It's not refusing to take part it's refusing to agree to a shitty premise.
Thanks for confirming your lack of intention to ever participate in good faith, it will save us all time in responding to you. Thanks also for doing a wonderful job of demonstrating why the discussion (and all discussions with people adopting the mindset you're using here) is pointless.
Adopting a faulty assumption just so you can get the result you want is a classic fallacy; it doesn't support your argument, it makes it self-defeating.
To find out who would actually win in any 1v1 fight we'd need to figure out where the tipping point is between how many spell slots (and of what level) the wizard has and how likely they are to succeed. But this also requires some baseline in terms of degree of preparation and what we expect that to mean in terms of gold allowance for the fighter to do the same.
Then we might have a basis for an actual discussion, capable of finding an actual answer. Because thus far the answer is still "it depends".
But for you Optimus, I'm going to ask that you please stop replying to me if you're going to keep continuing to refuse to participate in good faith.
Pot meet Kettle....
Overall we won't agree on this and it's fine to move on.
I just get tired of seeing this thread get necro'd with someone coming in saying that a fighter with all it's resources can beat a wizard with all theirs... It's just not happening.
Other than that it's up to the scenario but in the above one the fighter has almost no chance.
Why don't a few of you who are most interested in this topic, do some fight testing with it?
You can try out multiple subclasses for each. With a certain gold amount for magic items from Sane Magic Items or some such? Maybe a couple of uncommons, a rare, a very rare and a legendary or something that's fair and equal for both? Get people who are well familiar with each class and will plan out their tactics.
I think much of it will come down to who wins initiative and at what range they are starting out. But if everybody knows the range, the cover or lack of cover and such ahead of time, they can plan their build to maximize their chances of sucess.
I'd want people who are good at both classes and have interesting, out of the box, ideas on how to beat each other. Maybe setup "Team Wizard" and "Team Fighter" with people to brainstorm for good ideas on how to beat the other. For instance, if a Battle Master can get Wizard to drop his/her spell focus? Free action pick up the Wizard's spell focus (or Action Surge to do it, depending on what the DM says). That could be huge in the fight. Things like that. Thinking inside and outside the box for both groups.
I mean I have not really played wizards and know few tactics for them beyond fireball spam and true polymorph into an ancient brass dragon, so I am not a wizard player. Part of it is the fact that I do not have the time to get in many campaigns at once, and the module I really want to do is hard to find a campaign for.
I'd want people who are good at both classes and have interesting, out of the box, ideas on how to beat each other. Maybe setup "Team Wizard" and "Team Fighter" with people to brainstorm for good ideas on how to beat the other. For instance, if a Battle Master can get Wizard to drop his/her spell focus? Free action pick up the Wizard's spell focus (or Action Surge to do it, depending on what the DM says). That could be huge in the fight. Things like that. Thinking inside and outside the box for both groups.
I think it'd be fun.
we have already been doing this for 40 pages, the only way you could really mix up the result or see different builds is if you constantly mix up the format, either by changing the conditions for the battle itself, the goal of the fight, classes involved, what kinds of resources are available from class etc.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'd want people who are good at both classes and have interesting, out of the box, ideas on how to beat each other. Maybe setup "Team Wizard" and "Team Fighter" with people to brainstorm for good ideas on how to beat the other. For instance, if a Battle Master can get Wizard to drop his/her spell focus? Free action pick up the Wizard's spell focus (or Action Surge to do it, depending on what the DM says). That could be huge in the fight. Things like that. Thinking inside and outside the box for both groups.
I think it'd be fun.
we have already been doing this for 40 pages, the only way you could really mix up the result or see different builds is if you constantly mix up the format, either by changing the conditions for the battle itself, the goal of the fight, classes involved, what kinds of resources are available from class etc.
I haven't seen any ACTUAL results from combats, only theorycrafting. Do 20 or more fights, with different subclasses and situations, then post the results. Otherwise, this will just go on for another 40 pages.
Who would be interested in a big tournament to answer this question? Worse case scenario, we get to play some D&D about it.
Here is what I'm thinking:
Level 20 Wizard vs Level 20 Fighter Two weekend event
1st Weekend Qualifiers: Battle through a series of challenges, with a short rest between each one. Culminating in a fight with an Archmage for Fighters or a Champion Archer for the wizards. After the final qualifying battle Characters will be given one in game hour to prepare.
2nd Weekend: Those characters that survive the first weekend will be invited to compete in a tournament on the second weekend. Characters will be reset to the state they were in one in game hour after their qualifying match, before each round of the tournament. The tournament will be single elimination and characters will be paired according to their qualifying scores. Brackets may be redrawn after each round to prioritize duals between wizards and fighters.
Character Creation: Class: Level 20 Fighter or Wizard Sources: Any officially published option available on dndbeyond Ability Scores: Point Buy Optional Rules: Feats allowed, no multi-class Starting Equipment: Normal Starting Equipment plus 1 Common Magic Item, 1 Uncommon Magic Item, 2 Rare Magic Items, 1 Very Rare Magic Item, 1 Legendary Magic Item, plus 55,500gp Purchasable Items: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rji4BnSF8qEvM6Y1SYKT-522AwU-rJfVJI4NHIITUu8/edit?usp=sharing
Good idea, just worth noting that this is a different type of optimization than the ones seen in this thread.
Vague "series of encounters" that can easily favor either side, short rest after each one favors fighter but that's kinda necessary I suspect (encounters that favor one side, then encounters that favor the other). I don't really own much on D&DBeyond and tournaments aren't really my thing so I probably won't join.
As for the other stuff about team wizard and team fighter, here's a brief summary about this thread (note it's 40 pages so I probably missed something)
note none of these are "actual results from combat", and all relate around both sides having maximum resources available to them. Most of these posts were made by De4thkn1ght.
Team Fighter:
Samurai Nova (relies on Strength Before Death, which is questionable, like, do you just walk around at 1hp or what?)
EK Nova (hold person, relies on questionable cheese to prevent subtle counterspell)
Arcane Archer (nova, note banishing arrow can break concentration)
Team Wizard:
Dread (counters AA by dumping initiative and just being really good against surviving nukes, also good against EK)
Wizard Tank (removes all anti-magic stuff for solely health to survive a Samurai nuke)
Wizard strategies (assuming zero prep, even mage armor is banned, because if you can precast that you can precast Contingency which is a automatic win assuming above everyone has max resources thing)
Forcecage + Sickening Radiance (cannot counter with misty step because counterspell and multiple forcecage spell slots)
Polymorph + Power Word Kill (can combine with chronology/diviner wizard, or Silvery Barbs)
With that in mind the most ideal build is probably initiative chronurgy, Polymorph (grab metamagic adept for subtle spell) -> Convergent Future -> Power Word Kill. That basically hard counters almost everything in the game, much less a fighter. Diviner works too but is reliant on divination rolls.
Without Chronurgy it's Maze, Wish -> Simulacrum, Forcecage + Sickening Radiance when maze ends. Or just Forcecage then Sickening Radiance.
Honorable Mentions:
A regen based fighter can outlast Invulnerability provided the wizard only uses spells that only do damage, which note is none of the above.
Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall (two round setup is bad)
Contingency + Resilient Sphere, or Wall of Force (why contingency is a automatic win)
illusionist wizard
GWM builds (little chance of winning initiative, not much better than SS/CBE, and depends on how you handle range/kiting)
probably missed a couple things it's 40 pages
in a actual tournament I'd suspect some changes, such as more Fighters that don't rely on LRs like battlemasters, and a ton of magic items that allow for more spellcasting.
imagine someone brings a Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning from Rime of the Frostmaiden, now that's a fight.
Good idea, just worth noting that this is a different type of optimization than the ones seen in this thread.
Vague "series of encounters" that can easily favor either side, short rest after each one favors fighter but that's kinda necessary I suspect (encounters that favor one side, then encounters that favor the other). I don't really own much on D&DBeyond and tournaments aren't really my thing so I probably won't join.
As for the other stuff about team wizard and team fighter, here's a brief summary about this thread (note it's 40 pages so I probably missed something)
note none of these are "actual results from combat", and all relate around both sides having maximum resources available to them. Most of these posts were made by De4thkn1ght.
Team Fighter:
Samurai Nova (relies on Strength Before Death, which is questionable, like, do you just walk around at 1hp or what?)
EK Nova (hold person, relies on questionable cheese to prevent subtle counterspell)
Arcane Archer (nova, note banishing arrow can break concentration)
Team Wizard:
Dread (counters AA by dumping initiative and just being really good against surviving nukes, also good against EK)
Wizard Tank (removes all anti-magic stuff for solely health to survive a Samurai nuke)
Wizard strategies (assuming zero prep, even mage armor is banned, because if you can precast that you can precast Contingency which is a automatic win assuming above everyone has max resources thing)
Forcecage + Sickening Radiance (cannot counter with misty step because counterspell and multiple forcecage spell slots)
Polymorph + Power Word Kill (can combine with chronology/diviner wizard, or Silvery Barbs)
With that in mind the most ideal build is probably initiative chronurgy, Polymorph (grab metamagic adept for subtle spell) -> Convergent Future -> Power Word Kill. That basically hard counters almost everything in the game, much less a fighter. Diviner works too but is reliant on divination rolls.
Without Chronurgy it's Maze, Wish -> Simulacrum, Forcecage + Sickening Radiance when maze ends. Or just Forcecage then Sickening Radiance.
Honorable Mentions:
A regen based fighter can outlast Invulnerability provided the wizard only uses spells that only do damage, which note is none of the above.
Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall (two round setup is bad)
Contingency + Resilient Sphere, or Wall of Force (why contingency is a automatic win)
illusionist wizard
GWM builds (little chance of winning initiative, not much better than SS/CBE, and depends on how you handle range/kiting)
probably missed a couple things it's 40 pages
in a actual tournament I'd suspect some changes, such as more Fighters that don't rely on LRs like battlemasters, and a ton of magic items that allow for more spellcasting.
imagine someone brings a Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning from Rime of the Frostmaiden, now that's a fight.
I am so proud of you. Wish-sim clone chain, wizard tank, and tarrasque summoning all in one post.
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Sim-wish sadly requires either 12 hours of prep or a wish scroll because wishing a sim of yourself into existence creates one without the slot you used to cast it. But if legends are allowed there is only one real option.
Honestly not sure legendary items should be allowed, with how op wish scrolls and vorpal swords can be.
”Oh no, the boss my champ fighter is going against solo has 500 hp! Anyways…”
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Hmm… I have returned and what I’m the world happened?! Why are people still talking about this, as this debate has been completed awhile ago (as the main build maker of the Seppuku Sniper Samurai and the maker of the final form of the ultimate tank wizard with 265 hp and 25 AC) this debate is over.
The strongest Seppuku Sniper Samurai build I have made only has an average damage of around like 458 damage but it loses against the Tank Wizard only being able to deal 211ish damage past the wizards 25 AC leaving the wizard with approximately 54 hp left.
While yes the Seppuku Sniper Samurai does use some feats on some other things like lucky and such that could be used to help get some hits in it still doesn’t guarantee the fighter will be able to breach the hp needed. Though in all honesty my SSS build as far as I see it has the best chances against the wizard being able to argueablly have a 45-50%ish chance to MAYBE deal enough damage to seal the deal but that is if your being VERY generous. Fun Fact: The SSS can in one turn kill an Adult Red Dragon (A slight change in strategy is need but it doesn’t change much), and in a couple of turns he can kill an Ancient Red Dragon by himself so the SSS is no slouch in combat.
As for the other two fighter builds being the Arcane Archer Aasimer (AAA) and the Eldritch Knight (EK) both rely on the wizard failing multiple saving throws in succession and that the wizard is hit and “stun-locked” but in reality even if the AAA perfectly hit all arrows and made the last arrow banish the wizard and deal the Aasimer Radiant damage and etc the newest version of the Tank Wizard just has to much health and to high an AC for the AAA to get past. While the EK while good also has the same problem and another problem that the AAA doesn’t have and that is if the wizard is a satyr the EK build literally just doesn’t work… since it relies and hold person and satyrs are fey. The EK also has some hardcore RAW rule abuse that I made to evade the line of sight the wizard and some other interesting strategies.
Now for the Wizard Builds (besides the niche ones) the main ones are:
Abjuration Tank build: Not much too it beside being unable to be killed by any known fighter build as it even can’t be killed by the SSS build.
The Chronurgist Build: It has multiple variations the most notable being the Initiative Build and the hybrid build (Tank and Initiative).
The Divination Build: Think of the Chronurgist but just almost worse in every way… kinda.
And remember for the wizard we are ignoring the ability to just cast Wish to win/kill the fighter and the fact that the Chronurgist wizard can use Convergent Future to force an outcome like winning initiative though I’m not using those because people have there gripes with them. But there is another “build” that is almost equally powerful and almost impossible to bypass that being the Warcaster/Polearm Master wizard build to cast a spell when the fighter enters range and interupt the fighter before he can attempt to kill you making him waste a large portion of his first turn (assuming he goes first).
All in all I don’t see the fighter ever really winning in the whiteroom scenario unless he has incredible luck by criting many many times. As for the fighter winning out of a whiteroom against a competent wizard is utterly impossible if not outright disrespect to wizards.
Do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
What happened was that the wizard should not be allowed to use their 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots in a row because they were balanced around budgeting slots for multiple fights per day, and the builds should probably not be optimized specifically to kill each other, just optimized for typical activity.
The real question we should be answering is not “who would win?” it’s “how many slots at what level does the wizard need to use to win?”
Because the first tells us little about which is better over 3-8 encounters
What happened was that the wizard should not be allowed to use their 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots in a row because they were balanced around budgeting slots for multiple fights per day, and the builds should probably not be optimized specifically to kill each other, just optimized for typical activity.
The real question we should be answering is not “who would win?” it’s “how many slots at what level does the wizard need to use to win?”
Because the first tells us little about which is better over 3-8 encounters
I thought this died too, to be honest
If we have to tie one arm behind the wizard's back for the fighter to have a chance, then we are admitting wizard is better.
The basics of this is that the wizard is meant to budget their spells over many encounters, while fighters have few expendable resources that need long rests to recharge. This means that that the wizard will be able to win easily by expending their three biggest spell slots in a row, but that will also kill their chances of winning any fights later in the day, which means neither truly won. They are balanced for up to 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests in between, let’s see how they do on 1/3 long rest resources! (The encounter would probably count as deadly, so this should be treated as the only encounter that short rest)
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The basics of this is that the wizard is meant to budget their spells over many encounters, while fighters have few expendable resources that need long rests to recharge.
Answer: Aren’t you just saying a rested wizard vs a rested fighter the wizard wins but if you play to the fighters strong suit the wizard is less likely to win since one is built to do many short encounters while the other tends to be more suited to a few mid-high difficulty encounters (mind you this is disregarding prep since if the wizard had prep for these encounters the fighter would be demolished in any and every metric besides maybe nova damage).
I just wanna say this so it is clear a wizard with prep wins in every metric available against the fighter except for maybe Nova damage.
This means that that the wizard will be able to win easily by expending their three biggest spell slots in a row, but that will also kill their chances of winning any fights later in the day, which means neither truly won.
Answer: If your wizard is losing all his spell slots by entering only a couple of encounters you aren’t “wizarding” right a wizard who is smart will be very likely to survive many encounters.
And I’ll say it again a wizard with prep would demolish all encounters way better than a fighter potentially could.
They are balanced for up to 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests in between, let’s see how they do on 1/3 long rest resources! (The encounter would probably count as deadly, so this should be treated as the only encounter that short rest)
Answer: Why that criteria? Which monsters or encounters are used? What Terrain? How are each played? Is there prep? If prep how much? Are they in character? In whiteroom (whiteroom for this scenerio is practically impossible due to excess variables)? Blah blah blah you get the point while your point is interesting the logistics are all over the place since everything relies on the DM and DM’s are not all the same so they play differently, act differently, are different from other DMs and there play styles.
There is more I could go into but this was supposed to be quick. Either way I still see no reason why this thread need to continue until either a new revelation is made, new relevant content is made, or a shift in discussion is done (like monk vs wizard type a thing even if momentary).
As things stand as of now Wizard is just too much for the fighter to handle and if the battle is considered outside of a whiteroom and both players are competent then the wizard wins 99% of the time or 100% of the time with prep.
If we have to tie one arm behind the wizard's back for the fighter to have a chance, then we are admitting wizard is better.
It's not tying an arm behind their back, it's considering both ends of the spectrum; if you assume the Wizard goes into the fight fully stocked on resources with infinite prep then you're only weighting the fight in their favour instead. The point is that they are two very different classes, and one of the biggest differences between them is that the Wizard is heavily reliant on long rest resources and being able to prepare, while a fighter isn't.
If you don't consider the fighter at their fullest advantage, but do so for the wizard, then the comparison is pointless all that is is choosing an outcome you want and then building the circumstances to get it. The same is true if you did it only the other way around (wizard with no resources), it's why both scenarios, as well as the stages in between, are necessary before anything approaching an answer even begins to be possible.
This is why 40 pages of builds for maybe one-shotting a full strength wizard in the first turn both starting at full strength is only partially useful; that's the baseline for a maxxed out fighter when starting in the wizard's favour, you then need to do the same for the wizard starting in the fighter's favour, then some points in the middle (half long rest resources spent, one time with high level spells remaining, one time without, i.e- already faced a very hard fight). Then we might start to get a sense of how likely a wizard is to win in each circumstance, and therefore get some average value overall.
Thus far we've had page after page of people arguing essentially one, and only one, scenario, and getting pissy when anyone points out that that doesn't give a complete picture.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
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Incorrect. Feel free to refer to literally all of my posts if you ever care to find out why.
Thanks for confirming your lack of intention to ever participate in good faith, it will save us all time in responding to you. Thanks also for doing a wonderful job of demonstrating why the discussion (and all discussions with people adopting the mindset you're using here) is pointless.
Adopting a faulty assumption just so you can get the result you want is a classic fallacy; it doesn't support your argument, it makes it self-defeating.
To find out who would actually win in any 1v1 fight we'd need to figure out where the tipping point is between how many spell slots (and of what level) the wizard has and how likely they are to succeed. But this also requires some baseline in terms of degree of preparation and what we expect that to mean in terms of gold allowance for the fighter to do the same.
Then we might have a basis for an actual discussion, capable of finding an actual answer. Because thus far the answer is still "it depends".
But for you Optimus, I'm going to ask that you please stop replying to me if you're going to keep continuing to refuse to participate in good faith.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I’m glad you are on this forum. I had the same idea.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Quest offer! Enter the deep dungeon here
Ctg’s blood is on the spam filter’s hands
Pot meet Kettle....
Overall we won't agree on this and it's fine to move on.
I just get tired of seeing this thread get necro'd with someone coming in saying that a fighter with all it's resources can beat a wizard with all theirs... It's just not happening.
Other than that it's up to the scenario but in the above one the fighter has almost no chance.
Why don't a few of you who are most interested in this topic, do some fight testing with it?
You can try out multiple subclasses for each. With a certain gold amount for magic items from Sane Magic Items or some such? Maybe a couple of uncommons, a rare, a very rare and a legendary or something that's fair and equal for both? Get people who are well familiar with each class and will plan out their tactics.
I think much of it will come down to who wins initiative and at what range they are starting out. But if everybody knows the range, the cover or lack of cover and such ahead of time, they can plan their build to maximize their chances of sucess.
So let the battles begin! ;)
Good idea! Finally this thread does something useful.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Quest offer! Enter the deep dungeon here
Ctg’s blood is on the spam filter’s hands
I own no books on beyond so I’m just gonna watch
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Quest offer! Enter the deep dungeon here
Ctg’s blood is on the spam filter’s hands
Honestly, I'd watch it too! lol
I'd want people who are good at both classes and have interesting, out of the box, ideas on how to beat each other. Maybe setup "Team Wizard" and "Team Fighter" with people to brainstorm for good ideas on how to beat the other. For instance, if a Battle Master can get Wizard to drop his/her spell focus? Free action pick up the Wizard's spell focus (or Action Surge to do it, depending on what the DM says). That could be huge in the fight. Things like that. Thinking inside and outside the box for both groups.
I think it'd be fun.
I mean I have not really played wizards and know few tactics for them beyond fireball spam and true polymorph into an ancient brass dragon, so I am not a wizard player. Part of it is the fact that I do not have the time to get in many campaigns at once, and the module I really want to do is hard to find a campaign for.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Quest offer! Enter the deep dungeon here
Ctg’s blood is on the spam filter’s hands
we have already been doing this for 40 pages, the only way you could really mix up the result or see different builds is if you constantly mix up the format, either by changing the conditions for the battle itself, the goal of the fight, classes involved, what kinds of resources are available from class etc.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I haven't seen any ACTUAL results from combats, only theorycrafting. Do 20 or more fights, with different subclasses and situations, then post the results. Otherwise, this will just go on for another 40 pages.
Who would be interested in a big tournament to answer this question? Worse case scenario, we get to play some D&D about it.
Here is what I'm thinking:
Level 20 Wizard vs Level 20 Fighter
Two weekend event
1st Weekend Qualifiers:
Battle through a series of challenges, with a short rest between each one.
Culminating in a fight with an Archmage for Fighters or a Champion Archer for the wizards.
After the final qualifying battle Characters will be given one in game hour to prepare.
2nd Weekend:
Those characters that survive the first weekend will be invited to compete in a tournament on the second weekend. Characters will be reset to the state they were in one in game hour after their qualifying match, before each round of the tournament.
The tournament will be single elimination and characters will be paired according to their qualifying scores.
Brackets may be redrawn after each round to prioritize duals between wizards and fighters.
Character Creation:
Class: Level 20 Fighter or Wizard
Sources: Any officially published option available on dndbeyond
Ability Scores: Point Buy
Optional Rules: Feats allowed, no multi-class
Starting Equipment: Normal Starting Equipment plus 1 Common Magic Item, 1 Uncommon Magic Item, 2 Rare Magic Items, 1 Very Rare Magic Item, 1 Legendary Magic Item, plus 55,500gp
Purchasable Items:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rji4BnSF8qEvM6Y1SYKT-522AwU-rJfVJI4NHIITUu8/edit?usp=sharing
https://forms.gle/f6tu55vB2wUBsutx9
Good idea, just worth noting that this is a different type of optimization than the ones seen in this thread.
Vague "series of encounters" that can easily favor either side, short rest after each one favors fighter but that's kinda necessary I suspect (encounters that favor one side, then encounters that favor the other). I don't really own much on D&DBeyond and tournaments aren't really my thing so I probably won't join.
As for the other stuff about team wizard and team fighter, here's a brief summary about this thread (note it's 40 pages so I probably missed something)
note none of these are "actual results from combat", and all relate around both sides having maximum resources available to them. Most of these posts were made by De4thkn1ght.
Team Fighter:
Team Wizard:
Wizard strategies
(assuming zero prep, even mage armor is banned, because if you can precast that you can precast Contingency which is a automatic win assuming above everyone has max resources thing)
With that in mind the most ideal build is probably initiative chronurgy, Polymorph (grab metamagic adept for subtle spell) -> Convergent Future -> Power Word Kill. That basically hard counters almost everything in the game, much less a fighter. Diviner works too but is reliant on divination rolls.
Without Chronurgy it's Maze, Wish -> Simulacrum, Forcecage + Sickening Radiance when maze ends. Or just Forcecage then Sickening Radiance.
Honorable Mentions:
probably missed a couple things it's 40 pages
in a actual tournament I'd suspect some changes, such as more Fighters that don't rely on LRs like battlemasters, and a ton of magic items that allow for more spellcasting.
imagine someone brings a Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning from Rime of the Frostmaiden, now that's a fight.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I am so proud of you. Wish-sim clone chain, wizard tank, and tarrasque summoning all in one post.
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Sim-wish sadly requires either 12 hours of prep or a wish scroll because wishing a sim of yourself into existence creates one without the slot you used to cast it. But if legends are allowed there is only one real option.
Honestly not sure legendary items should be allowed, with how op wish scrolls and vorpal swords can be.
”Oh no, the boss my champ fighter is going against solo has 500 hp! Anyways…”
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Hmm… I have returned and what I’m the world happened?! Why are people still talking about this, as this debate has been completed awhile ago (as the main build maker of the Seppuku Sniper Samurai and the maker of the final form of the ultimate tank wizard with 265 hp and 25 AC) this debate is over.
The strongest Seppuku Sniper Samurai build I have made only has an average damage of around like 458 damage but it loses against the Tank Wizard only being able to deal 211ish damage past the wizards 25 AC leaving the wizard with approximately 54 hp left.
While yes the Seppuku Sniper Samurai does use some feats on some other things like lucky and such that could be used to help get some hits in it still doesn’t guarantee the fighter will be able to breach the hp needed. Though in all honesty my SSS build as far as I see it has the best chances against the wizard being able to argueablly have a 45-50%ish chance to MAYBE deal enough damage to seal the deal but that is if your being VERY generous.
Fun Fact: The SSS can in one turn kill an Adult Red Dragon (A slight change in strategy is need but it doesn’t change much), and in a couple of turns he can kill an Ancient Red Dragon by himself so the SSS is no slouch in combat.
As for the other two fighter builds being the Arcane Archer Aasimer (AAA) and the Eldritch Knight (EK) both rely on the wizard failing multiple saving throws in succession and that the wizard is hit and “stun-locked” but in reality even if the AAA perfectly hit all arrows and made the last arrow banish the wizard and deal the Aasimer Radiant damage and etc the newest version of the Tank Wizard just has to much health and to high an AC for the AAA to get past.
While the EK while good also has the same problem and another problem that the AAA doesn’t have and that is if the wizard is a satyr the EK build literally just doesn’t work… since it relies and hold person and satyrs are fey. The EK also has some hardcore RAW rule abuse that I made to evade the line of sight the wizard and some other interesting strategies.
Now for the Wizard Builds (besides the niche ones) the main ones are:
Abjuration Tank build: Not much too it beside being unable to be killed by any known fighter build as it even can’t be killed by the SSS build.
The Chronurgist Build: It has multiple variations the most notable being the Initiative Build and the hybrid build (Tank and Initiative).
The Divination Build: Think of the Chronurgist but just almost worse in every way… kinda.
And remember for the wizard we are ignoring the ability to just cast Wish to win/kill the fighter and the fact that the Chronurgist wizard can use Convergent Future to force an outcome like winning initiative though I’m not using those because people have there gripes with them.
But there is another “build” that is almost equally powerful and almost impossible to bypass that being the Warcaster/Polearm Master wizard build to cast a spell when the fighter enters range and interupt the fighter before he can attempt to kill you making him waste a large portion of his first turn (assuming he goes first).
All in all I don’t see the fighter ever really winning in the whiteroom scenario unless he has incredible luck by criting many many times. As for the fighter winning out of a whiteroom against a competent wizard is utterly impossible if not outright disrespect to wizards.
Do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
What happened was that the wizard should not be allowed to use their 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots in a row because they were balanced around budgeting slots for multiple fights per day, and the builds should probably not be optimized specifically to kill each other, just optimized for typical activity.
The real question we should be answering is not “who would win?” it’s “how many slots at what level does the wizard need to use to win?”
Because the first tells us little about which is better over 3-8 encounters
I thought this died too, to be honest
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If we have to tie one arm behind the wizard's back for the fighter to have a chance, then we are admitting wizard is better.
The basics of this is that the wizard is meant to budget their spells over many encounters, while fighters have few expendable resources that need long rests to recharge. This means that that the wizard will be able to win easily by expending their three biggest spell slots in a row, but that will also kill their chances of winning any fights later in the day, which means neither truly won. They are balanced for up to 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests in between, let’s see how they do on 1/3 long rest resources! (The encounter would probably count as deadly, so this should be treated as the only encounter that short rest)
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Answer: Aren’t you just saying a rested wizard vs a rested fighter the wizard wins but if you play to the fighters strong suit the wizard is less likely to win since one is built to do many short encounters while the other tends to be more suited to a few mid-high difficulty encounters (mind you this is disregarding prep since if the wizard had prep for these encounters the fighter would be demolished in any and every metric besides maybe nova damage).
I just wanna say this so it is clear a wizard with prep wins in every metric available against the fighter except for maybe Nova damage.
Answer: If your wizard is losing all his spell slots by entering only a couple of encounters you aren’t “wizarding” right a wizard who is smart will be very likely to survive many encounters.
And I’ll say it again a wizard with prep would demolish all encounters way better than a fighter potentially could.
Answer: Why that criteria? Which monsters or encounters are used? What Terrain? How are each played? Is there prep? If prep how much? Are they in character? In whiteroom (whiteroom for this scenerio is practically impossible due to excess variables)? Blah blah blah you get the point while your point is interesting the logistics are all over the place since everything relies on the DM and DM’s are not all the same so they play differently, act differently, are different from other DMs and there play styles.
There is more I could go into but this was supposed to be quick. Either way I still see no reason why this thread need to continue until either a new revelation is made, new relevant content is made, or a shift in discussion is done (like monk vs wizard type a thing even if momentary).
As things stand as of now Wizard is just too much for the fighter to handle and if the battle is considered outside of a whiteroom and both players are competent then the wizard wins 99% of the time or 100% of the time with prep.
It's not tying an arm behind their back, it's considering both ends of the spectrum; if you assume the Wizard goes into the fight fully stocked on resources with infinite prep then you're only weighting the fight in their favour instead. The point is that they are two very different classes, and one of the biggest differences between them is that the Wizard is heavily reliant on long rest resources and being able to prepare, while a fighter isn't.
If you don't consider the fighter at their fullest advantage, but do so for the wizard, then the comparison is pointless all that is is choosing an outcome you want and then building the circumstances to get it. The same is true if you did it only the other way around (wizard with no resources), it's why both scenarios, as well as the stages in between, are necessary before anything approaching an answer even begins to be possible.
This is why 40 pages of builds for maybe one-shotting a full strength wizard in the first turn both starting at full strength is only partially useful; that's the baseline for a maxxed out fighter when starting in the wizard's favour, you then need to do the same for the wizard starting in the fighter's favour, then some points in the middle (half long rest resources spent, one time with high level spells remaining, one time without, i.e- already faced a very hard fight). Then we might start to get a sense of how likely a wizard is to win in each circumstance, and therefore get some average value overall.
Thus far we've had page after page of people arguing essentially one, and only one, scenario, and getting pissy when anyone points out that that doesn't give a complete picture.
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