That’s the problem with vague wording. Everyone interprets magic jar differently, because there are so many seemingly correct ways to interpret it. Someone should go ask sage advice about the magic jar-clone interaction.
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Hey just found another way you could do the Magic Jar part of The Magnum Opus strategy although it is a little complicated with the souls jumping around and such. The Plan:
Cast Magic Jar on yourself, your body falls catatonic, and your soul enters Jar #1.
You project your soul and possess a humanoid. The humanoid’s soul enters jar #1.
You recast Magic Jar, the humanoid body falls catatonic, your soul enters Jar #2.
You project your soul and reenter your original catatonic body. Jar #2 is empty.
The humanoid body is empty and there are two castings of the spell overlapping.
Move the humanoid body more than 100ft away from Jar #1. Destroy Jar #1 ending the first casting of Magic Jar.
The humanoid’s soul can’t return to its body and it dies. Your soul must return to your original body or you die but your soul is already in your original body, so you live. The second casting is still active.
The humanoid body is empty. The Jar #2 is empty.
Move the humanoid body within 100ft of Jar #2. Destroy Jar #2, ending the second casting of Magic Jar.
Your soul returns to the humanoid body (original body of this casting).
Your original body is empty. There is no active casting of Magic Jar.
With this process you are permanently in your new body without any casting of Magic Jar active and you have your original body as a spare body that you can save for later.
Additionally, remember this can be seamlessly added into The Magnum Opus strategy and is quite the strategy. As for those who will probably cite "Combining Magical Effects" to try to say it doesn't work I recommend they read the section again.
Anyways sorry it is very complicated but I tried for a while to make it easy to understand but I just wanted to show another way it could be done as opposed to the Magic Jar, Clone focused strategy that while less complicated is currently under scrutiny (even though I think it works I give them another option and if somehow all else fails I do have a third option to fall back on although it is techniqually dispel able but it is still powerful).
Hey just found another way you could do the Magic Jar part of The Magnum Opus strategy although it is a little complicated with the souls jumping around and such. The Plan:
Cast Magic Jar on yourself, your body falls catatonic, and your soul enters Jar #1.
You project your soul and possess a humanoid. The humanoid’s soul enters jar #1.
You recast Magic Jar, the humanoid body falls catatonic, your soul enters Jar #2.
You project your soul and reenter your original catatonic body. Jar #2 is empty.
The humanoid body is empty and there are two castings of the spell overlapping.
Move the humanoid body more than 100ft away from Jar #1. Destroy Jar #1 ending the first casting of Magic Jar.
The humanoid’s soul can’t return to its body and it dies. Your soul must return to your original body or you die but your soul is already in your original body, so you live. The second casting is still active.
The humanoid body is empty. The Jar #2 is empty.
Move the humanoid body within 100ft of Jar #2. Destroy Jar #2, ending the second casting of Magic Jar.
Your soul returns to the humanoid body (original body of this casting).
Your original body is empty. There is no active casting of Magic Jar.
With this process you are permanently in your new body without any casting of Magic Jar active and you have your original body as a spare body that you can save for later.
Additionally, remember this can be seamlessly added into The Magnum Opus strategy and is quite the strategy. As for those who will probably cite "Combining Magical Effects" to try to say it doesn't work I recommend they read the section again.
Anyways sorry it is very complicated but I tried for a while to make it easy to understand but I just wanted to show another way it could be done as opposed to the Magic Jar, Clone focused strategy that while less complicated is currently under scrutiny (even though I think it works I give them another option and if somehow all else fails I do have a third option to fall back on although it is techniqually dispel able but it is still powerful).
Well that’s an exploit. Both evil and game-breaking. Don’t do this in an actual campaign unless it’s an evil campaign and the dm is very good. To be honest, if one works but not the other, it’s probably the first, because you’re using magic jar to return to a dead body, its original soul gone, and everyone needs to respect the dm that can figure out exactly what happens to your original body. What’s the third way?
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Well that’s an exploit. Both evil and game-breaking. Don’t do this in an actual campaign unless it’s an evil campaign and the dm is very good. To be honest, if one works but not the other, it’s probably the first, because you’re using magic jar to return to a dead body, its original soul gone, and everyone needs to respect the dm that can figure out exactly what happens to your original body.
Answer: Eh I guess so but it still works mostly but it is just unclear as the spell gives you no clue what happens to the spell when there is no soul to swap but it seems reasonable that you would possess the body regardless but i can see why you are tentative to accept it.
What’s the third way?
Answer: The third way is way more meh and kinda lame but what it essentially boils down to is you Magic Jaring into a creature using Arcanist's Magic Aura or just entering a humanoid as normal. Afterwards you give your catatonic body your Magic Jar by putting it in their backpack and cast Imprisonment using the Minimus Containment option the minimizes his original body along with Magic Jar. So now you are lets say a gold dragon which suspiciously carries a small gem which of course holds your original body and Magic Jar. So yeah kinda lame all things considered but still very strong as people still need know your weakness and be powerful enough to dispel it to really do anything to you and you still have a large army of simulacrums that are copies of you.
Ah ok. That one nobody can contest. But it is rather boring in comparison to the others.
Answer: We’ll I’ve been looking around and found some other pretty cool stuff although… well you’ll see:
1) This strategy uses the following three (more like two but whatever) spells Magic Jar, Wish, and Death Ward. The way this strategy is supposed to work is the wizard possesses the body with Magic Jar then uses Wish to cast Death Ward on the wizard. Then as you are under the effects of Death Ward when you smash the jar the spell is supposed to end as your souls swap/return but your soul/death is negated and instead you stay in the body you possessed without Magic Jar active so you are permanently that creature. But it is weird since how the soul/death thing is worded but otherwise on paper it should work.
2) This strategy once again uses Magic Jar, but this time it we also use True Polymorph and then Clone. The plan for this is to cast Magic Jar to possess a humanoid then cast True Polymorph on the wizards own catatonic body making it an adult gold dragon or whatever then undo the Magic Jar spell and return to your now altered body to then cast Clone to permanentize the change. The plan runs off the fact that the soul carries the mental ability scores, alignment, personality, and class features with the soul so when the soul returns to the changed body you keep you those stats on top of the new polymorphed body and as such become that creature but with your class features and such.
3) This is less about spells as it is about lore but the spell used is True Polymorph so you can become an Intellect Devourer though what I’m mostly going for is the Illithed also known as the [Tooltip Not Found]. As the lore of them and their kin is of their tadpoles entering and controlling creatures. And since through the use of Simulacrum and the True Polymorph spells the wizard can make his own Elder Brain or mindflayer hive and use that to attempt to take control of creatures.
I’m very sorry for how these strategies are presented but I’m tired so they aren’t as good as I want them to be. As such they probably look worse than they are so after you have read them take them with a grain of salt in that they should be better worded and more organized.
That’s the problem with vague wording. Everyone interprets magic jar differently, because there are so many seemingly correct ways to interpret it. Someone should go ask sage advice about the magic jar-clone interaction.
Besides, it's not vague wording, possess in this context means to have complete power and control over something, which is not the same as to become something (I possess and control a car, it doesn't mean I am a car. When controlling it, for all intents and purposes we move as one, but I'm still not a car). That is the crux of the issue, but there are further reasons it won't work RAW, which is also why Death Ward and destroying the jar won't work.
If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. <= The material component to the spell has been destroyed. Spell ends because one of it's components that it requires to function no longer exists. Thus, caster is forced to leave host body to return their body. In order to retain possession, the spell needs to be active. In this case, that'll be the spell that ended and is no longer active because it's required component was destroyed. Furthermore, the act of returning to your point of origin means you leave where you were, irrespective of whether or not you can actually get back to where you originally started from.
While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body. <= To possess a creature, the caster needs to be in the jar. Once they have left the host body, the can't possess it unless that are in the jar. In this case, that'll be the destroyed jar that the caster isn't in because it no longer exists.
If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. <= The caster dies because they aren't in a body and they can't return to their body. Death Ward would only prevent this death if it was cast on the caster's body, because it stops the touched creature from dying (even that is debatable, RAW as it stops effects of spells and this is an effect of the spell being finished, not the spell itself). It does not provide the caster with the ability to possess a creature that was due to a spell that is no longer in effect that requires a component that no longer exists.
If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies. <= Creature only dies if it can't return to it's body. Not be able to return does not stop the caster from being forced to leave the host body, nor does it allow them to possess the body once they have left. Furthermore, if a creature dies, it's body and soul both die, as one cannot live without the other (The above plus If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies... In order to for a creature to be alive, the body needs to be alive and the soul needs to be able to return to it if it has left). A caster can't possess a dead creature, because when the body dies, the caster is forced to leave.
What Death Ward would do is stop the host body dying whilst the caster was possessing it.
Same way two Magic Jar spells doesn't work because 1) at no point is the host body your body, and 2) if the creature's soul can't return to it's body, it dies and you can't return to a dead body (not withstanding the basic logic errors in the two jars argument that stop it dead with regard to body at casting and spells ending).
That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
What you were wrong about that I also found you wrong about was wish. You had no evidence of any kind and refused to provide any, while we had some evidence that you didn’t accept. You were outnumbered, but that wasn’t why you were wrong. I made no comment on magic jar in favor of anyone and you weren’t outnumbered there.
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That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
What you were wrong about that I also found you wrong about was wish. You had no evidence of any kind and refused to provide any, while we had some evidence that you didn’t accept. You were outnumbered, but that wasn’t why you were wrong. I made no comment on magic jar in favor of anyone and you weren’t outnumbered there.
You had no evidence, just random quotes that failed to relate to the question.
That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
What you were wrong about that I also found you wrong about was wish. You had no evidence of any kind and refused to provide any, while we had some evidence that you didn’t accept. You were outnumbered, but that wasn’t why you were wrong. I made no comment on magic jar in favor of anyone and you weren’t outnumbered there.
You had no evidence, just random quotes that failed to relate to the question.
Back to you, except not even any random quotes. You barely attempted to prove anything. That is why we didn’t see your point. Because you didn’t try to show it. Any amount of evidence in your favor would have beaten “more people think this.” But you provided literally none, and no attempt at any.
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That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
What you were wrong about that I also found you wrong about was wish. You had no evidence of any kind and refused to provide any, while we had some evidence that you didn’t accept. You were outnumbered, but that wasn’t why you were wrong. I made no comment on magic jar in favor of anyone and you weren’t outnumbered there.
You had no evidence, just random quotes that failed to relate to the question.
Back to you, except not even any random quotes. You barely attempted to prove anything. That is why we didn’t see your point. Because you didn’t try to show it. Any amount of evidence in your favor would have beaten “more people think this.” But you provided literally none, and no attempt at any.
I'm not the one who lied and claimed that my position was RAW.
I'm not the one who posted a bunch of random quotes from the rulebooks (what did you do, roll dice to make your selection?) and claimed it backed my position.
In fact, I repeatedly pointed out that my position wasn't taken directly from RAW, but it does avoid making an arbitrary and indefensible distinction between range and casting time. It also doesn't make high-level campaigns unplayable.
I, also, didn't say that you "ground my gears" by disagreeing with me.
That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
What you were wrong about that I also found you wrong about was wish. You had no evidence of any kind and refused to provide any, while we had some evidence that you didn’t accept. You were outnumbered, but that wasn’t why you were wrong. I made no comment on magic jar in favor of anyone and you weren’t outnumbered there.
You had no evidence, just random quotes that failed to relate to the question.
Back to you, except not even any random quotes. You barely attempted to prove anything. That is why we didn’t see your point. Because you didn’t try to show it. Any amount of evidence in your favor would have beaten “more people think this.” But you provided literally none, and no attempt at any.
I'm not the one who lied and claimed that my position was RAW.
I'm not the one who posted a bunch of random quotes from the rulebooks (what did you do, roll dice to make your selection?) and claimed it backed my position.
In fact, I repeatedly pointed out that my position wasn't taken directly from RAW, but it does avoid making an arbitrary and indefensible distinction between range and casting time. It also doesn't make high-level campaigns unplayable.
I, also, didn't say that you "ground my gears" by disagreeing with me.
At this point it's likely not productive to keep harking on this issue so let's just move on eh?
I'm not the one who lied and claimed that my position was RAW.
I'm not the one who posted a bunch of random quotes from the rulebooks (what did you do, roll dice to make your selection?) and claimed it backed my position.
In fact, I repeatedly pointed out that my position wasn't taken directly from RAW, but it does avoid making an arbitrary and indefensible distinction between range and casting time. It also doesn't make high-level campaigns unplayable.
I, also, didn't say that you "ground my gears" by disagreeing with me.
Answer: Wren you have to be joking I'll do this once. Instead of just showing you "a bunch of random quotes from the rulebooks" I'll show you the ones I've used and explain why it is there:
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects."
Explanation: As shown above the same basic rules are followed for EVERY spell that a character casts regardless of the spell's effect so a spell like Wish still follows the basic rules in it's spell description regardless of the fact it duplicates a spell as it's spell effect. As such when you spend an action to instantaneously speak aloud your Wish to yourself you activate the effect of the Wish spell. The Wish spell's spell effect is to duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower.
Now I want to draw extra attention to the sentence "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower," notice that it says it duplicates the spell not casts it now if it said cast it Wren you might have been able to have an argument but it says "duplicate" meaning the wizard isn't casting the spell but essentially duplicating it's effects.
So in short when you cast Wish after casting it the spell's effect lets you duplicate any spell. You can see this separation of a spell and that spell's effect in this quote below:
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect."
Notice the "The rest of a spell's entry describes the spell's effect," that means that I am right in that when you cast Wish you use it's 'casting time, range, components, and duration" and the rest of the wish is the spell's effect.
Since I already referenced Wish I don't need to go in depth especially when I've linked the spell already many times so you can just read it again.
Wren if you say that this isn't RAW one more time you lose all credibility as these are once again direct quotes from the PHB with page numbers from an official rulebook from Wizards of the Coast.
Thank you. It duplicates the effect without actually casting the spell. The range and duration things are RAO (rules as obvious) because they technically aren’t written in, but they are both the only way that makes any sense.
That’s the problem with vague wording. Everyone interprets magic jar differently, because there are so many seemingly correct ways to interpret it. Someone should go ask sage advice about the magic jar-clone interaction.
Answer: First Link this post shows that their tweets aren't RAW not even Jeremy Crawford tweets are official as all it is, is just advice. And sage advice isn't and was never intended to be RAW just advice while Jeremy Crawford's tweets were considered official advice but now his tweets aren't even considered that so you've proven nothing. Lastly what strategy are we talking since what you shown like only covers like one strategy since all the other ones end off with Magic Jar not active anymore...
Besides, it's not vague wording, possess in this context means to have complete power and control over something, which is not the same as to become something (I possess and control a car, it doesn't mean I am a car. When controlling it, for all intents and purposes we move as one, but I'm still not a car). That is the crux of the issue, but there are further reasons it won't work RAW, which is also why Death Ward and destroying the jar won't work.
Answer: Hey that one heck of a false equivalency if I ever saw one compounded by you twisting the definition of possession as well. 1) Possession refers to the act of a spirit or in this case a soul inhabiting/occupying a body, while to possess refers to ownership/property of an person place or thing/object. 2) But were both techniqually right in that both definitions are a way to describe the same word but the difference between the two definitions is that yours doesn't take into context the situation while the other (mine) does as it refers to the spirit inhabiting the creature's body as opposed to yours which refers to just owning an person place or thing/object... so yeah...
If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. <= The material component to the spell has been destroyed. Spell ends because one of it's components that it requires to function no longer exists. Thus, caster is forced to leave host body to return their body. In order to retain possession, the spell needs to be active. In this case, that'll be the spell that ended and is no longer active because it's required component was destroyed. Furthermore, the act of returning to your point of origin means you leave where you were, irrespective of whether or not you can actually get back to where you originally started from.
While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body. <= To possess a creature, the caster needs to be in the jar. Once they have left the host body, the can't possess it unless that are in the jar. In this case, that'll be the destroyed jar that the caster isn't in because it no longer exists.
If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. <= The caster dies because they aren't in a body and they can't return to their body. Death Ward would only prevent this death if it was cast on the caster's body, because it stops the touched creature from dying (even that is debatable, RAW as it stops effects of spells and this is an effect of the spell being finished, not the spell itself). It does not provide the caster with the ability to possess a creature that was due to a spell that is no longer in effect that requires a component that no longer exists.
If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies. <= Creature only dies if it can't return to it's body. Not be able to return does not stop the caster from being forced to leave the host body, nor does it allow them to possess the body once they have left. Furthermore, if a creature dies, it's body and soul both die, as one cannot live without the other (The above plus If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies... In order to for a creature to be alive, the body needs to be alive and the soul needs to be able to return to it if it has left). A caster can't possess a dead creature, because when the body dies, the caster is forced to leave.
Answer: Honestly I've read this part multiple times and it just makes no sense to me (sorry) but anyways it looks like your trying to argue that... I don't even wanna try it's all over the place... so instead I'll just show you why my double casting of Magic Jar works by going through each part of the last paragraph
"If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die."
When the wizard breaks the Jar #1 in the strategy the wizard is already in his own body so it's fine and his body isn't dead it was only ever catatonic for a bit so he doesn't die.
"If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies."
As for this part, since in the strategy the wizard moves the creature away so that it can't return back o it's body it dies as normal and you are fine.
now as for the people who say "but when you use your second Magic Jar the wizard's main body doesn't have a soul to swap" to that I say True Polymorph. The reason the wizard would cast True Polymorph on his body is to make his body into some random humanoid creature so you can swap it's soul into Jar #2. After doing that you have the True Polymorph cancelled and you return to your catatonic body and while you are essentially in a coma your Simulacrum goes and moves Jar #2 away and smashes it destroying the soul and makin you return to the body you cast the second Magic Jar spell on. As such you are now in your new body permanently.
So if it was too confusing as to what happened I'll say it again but what happened is that the original body was transformed into a form with a soul and that soul was used to swap again with Magic Jar then the transformation was cancelled so the wizard reverted to a essentially comatose (catatonic) body and has his simulacrum move away and break Jar #2 as to make the wizard return to the body he cast the second Magic Jar on. I don't know if that made it easier to understand but it's here if it does help.
What Death Ward would do is stop the host body dying whilst the caster was possessing it.
Answer:
1) Cast Magic Jar on yourself, your body falls catatonic, and your soul enters Jar #1.
2) You project your soul and possess a humanoid. The humanoid’s soul enters Jar #1.
3) You cast Death Ward on yourself, to negate an effect that would instantly kill you.
4) You move your catatonic body 100ft away from you. You destroy Jar #1.
5) You are farther than 100ft from your body you die. Death Ward negates it. The Magic Jar spell ends.
6) Magic Jar is over, you are not dead, your body was to far away, your soul is unable attempt to return your body*
7) That means your soul has to be in the humanoid body it makes no sense for it to be anywhere else.
8) You are now that creature permanently.
*The reason why your soul doesn't attempt to return is because while it is said the soul immediately returns that is directly contradicted by the fact that the soul is given a range at which it attempts to return to the body that is 100ft (see bolded) and that is why it dies because it doesn't have the needed range to attempt to even begin the journey so you just die. This is supported by the "or" separating the two clauses and the comma before the "you die." Another point that shows that this is the correct interpretation of the rules (RAW) is the next sentence after that (underlined) shows that for the soul to attempt to return the to its body the body must be within 100ft just like before. So what I'm trying to say is that the soul knows it can't make the distance so you instead die but due to Death Ward that instance of death is avoided and since the Magic Jar spell ends your soul is no longer under the influence of the Magic Jar's effect to kill you so you instead live in your new humanoid body.
"If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet."
Same way two Magic Jar spells doesn't work because 1) at no point is the host body your body, and 2) if the creature's soul can't return to it's body, it dies and you can't return to a dead body (not withstanding the basic logic errors in the two jars argument that stop it dead with regard to body at casting and spells ending).
Answer: Magic Jar, Range: self. The first sentence is: "Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component."
Now if your going to tell me that when you are possessing a creature with with Magic Jar that spells with a range of self don't work just to make this spell combo not work then I honestly don't know what to say to you... as for the other stuff I think I've already addressed them.
Anyways do tell if I missed something, because I honestly took so much time on this post I can barely remember what I did/didn't address. Sorry this is such a complex topic.
I found another way to become a monster with class levels observe Shapechange. With that spell and casting Wish to cast Clone all you need to do is wait for the Clone to mature then die. Now you must be wondering as Shapechange has a 1 hour duration how would you stay in that form until the clone matures and the answer is you don't, you simply cast the spell again after it matures then have a naturally casted Simulacrum cast Power Word Kill on you after you damage your form below 100hp. Although as Shapechange is kinda weird in how it is worded you might not even have to assume the cloned creatures form when you die as it still is you but I digress.
Additionally there's some absolute shenanigan's you can do with spell Time Ravage as the spell rapidly ages a target's body until they are 30 days away from death by old age. That means you could rapidly age a dragon so they become ancient or perhaps something greater like a greatwyrm although from the lore of the greatwyrm it doesn't get its poaslongwer from age as most dragons do but from like these remnant echo thingys but thats not the point. With Time Ravage you could potentially mature a clone in an instant as long as you consider the inert clone as a creature.
I found another way to become a monster with class levels observe Shapechange. With that spell and casting Wish to cast Clone all you need to do is wait for the Clone to mature then die. Now you must be wondering as Shapechange has a 1 hour duration how would you stay in that form until the clone matures and the answer is you don't you simply cast the spell again after it matures then have a naturally casted Simulacrum cast spell]Power Word Kill[/spell] on you after you damage your form below 100hp. Although as Shapechange is kinda weird in how it is worded you might not even have to assume the cloned creatures form when you die as it still is you but I digress.
Additionally there's some absolute shenanigan's you can do with spell Time Ravage as the spell rapidly ages a target's body until they are 30 days away from death by old age. That means you could rapidly age a dragon so they become ancient or perhaps something greater like a greatwyrm although from the lore of the greatwyrm it doesn't get its poaslongwer from age as most dragons do but from like these remnant echo thingys but thats not the point. With Time Ravage you could potentially mature a clone in an instant as long as you consider the inert clone as a creature.
Anyways do tell if I messed up or something.
That’s all iffy. If I happened to be DMing for a player that tried to do this, I would make the first just create a copy of your original body and the second either not work at all or worse, work. Time ravage would leave the body 30 days from dying, something not desirable.
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The issue with clone + shapechange (or any buff) is that there's no reason to believe that it would make a permanent copy of the shapechange spell. Nothing mentions if temporary buffs are transferred over, and if they were, it would make sense to me that the duration would just run as normal (and probably run out during the growth process)
The issue with clone + shapechange (or any buff) is that there's no reason to believe that it would make a permanent copy of the shapechange spell. Nothing mentions if temporary buffs are transferred over, and if they were, it would make sense to me that the duration would just run as normal (and probably run out during the growth process)
Answer: I understand how you but it's just not how it works as when you transform you adopt that creatures stats and form becoming the creature so when you cast Clone on yourself since you are that creature Clone sees that as your original body and a clone is made so when you die in that form you would enter into your Clone. And lets entertain the idea that Clone chooses the non transformed body as the original body after casting it that would mean if you ever used True Polymorph on a rock for object into creature then used Clone since the target would be a living creature but the "original body" was the rock you would Clone a rock which you know kinda isn't possible barring Arcanist's Magic Aura but who would want to clone a rock in the first place... wait maybe... just kidding there is no amazing thing you could do... or is there.
Anyways that's why it Clone works, since you are essentially that creature for the duration of the spell so when you cast Clone you clone that creatures body.
I hope I said that well but either way do tell if I missed something or messed up.
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That’s the problem with vague wording. Everyone interprets magic jar differently, because there are so many seemingly correct ways to interpret it. Someone should go ask sage advice about the magic jar-clone interaction.
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Hey just found another way you could do the Magic Jar part of The Magnum Opus strategy although it is a little complicated with the souls jumping around and such. The Plan:
With this process you are permanently in your new body without any casting of Magic Jar active and you have your original body as a spare body that you can save for later.
Additionally, remember this can be seamlessly added into The Magnum Opus strategy and is quite the strategy. As for those who will probably cite "Combining Magical Effects" to try to say it doesn't work I recommend they read the section again.
Anyways sorry it is very complicated but I tried for a while to make it easy to understand but I just wanted to show another way it could be done as opposed to the Magic Jar, Clone focused strategy that while less complicated is currently under scrutiny (even though I think it works I give them another option and if somehow all else fails I do have a third option to fall back on although it is techniqually dispel able but it is still powerful).
Well that’s an exploit. Both evil and game-breaking. Don’t do this in an actual campaign unless it’s an evil campaign and the dm is very good. To be honest, if one works but not the other, it’s probably the first, because you’re using magic jar to return to a dead body, its original soul gone, and everyone needs to respect the dm that can figure out exactly what happens to your original body. What’s the third way?
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Answer: Eh I guess so but it still works mostly but it is just unclear as the spell gives you no clue what happens to the spell when there is no soul to swap but it seems reasonable that you would possess the body regardless but i can see why you are tentative to accept it.
Answer: The third way is way more meh and kinda lame but what it essentially boils down to is you Magic Jaring into a creature using Arcanist's Magic Aura or just entering a humanoid as normal. Afterwards you give your catatonic body your Magic Jar by putting it in their backpack and cast Imprisonment using the Minimus Containment option the minimizes his original body along with Magic Jar. So now you are lets say a gold dragon which suspiciously carries a small gem which of course holds your original body and Magic Jar. So yeah kinda lame all things considered but still very strong as people still need know your weakness and be powerful enough to dispel it to really do anything to you and you still have a large army of simulacrums that are copies of you.
Ah ok. That one nobody can contest. But it is rather boring in comparison to the others.
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Answer: We’ll I’ve been looking around and found some other pretty cool stuff although… well you’ll see:
1) This strategy uses the following three (more like two but whatever) spells Magic Jar, Wish, and Death Ward. The way this strategy is supposed to work is the wizard possesses the body with Magic Jar then uses Wish to cast Death Ward on the wizard. Then as you are under the effects of Death Ward when you smash the jar the spell is supposed to end as your souls swap/return but your soul/death is negated and instead you stay in the body you possessed without Magic Jar active so you are permanently that creature. But it is weird since how the soul/death thing is worded but otherwise on paper it should work.
2) This strategy once again uses Magic Jar, but this time it we also use True Polymorph and then Clone. The plan for this is to cast Magic Jar to possess a humanoid then cast True Polymorph on the wizards own catatonic body making it an adult gold dragon or whatever then undo the Magic Jar spell and return to your now altered body to then cast Clone to permanentize the change. The plan runs off the fact that the soul carries the mental ability scores, alignment, personality, and class features with the soul so when the soul returns to the changed body you keep you those stats on top of the new polymorphed body and as such become that creature but with your class features and such.
3) This is less about spells as it is about lore but the spell used is True Polymorph so you can become an Intellect Devourer though what I’m mostly going for is the Illithed also known as the [Tooltip Not Found]. As the lore of them and their kin is of their tadpoles entering and controlling creatures. And since through the use of Simulacrum and the True Polymorph spells the wizard can make his own Elder Brain or mindflayer hive and use that to attempt to take control of creatures.
I’m very sorry for how these strategies are presented but I’m tired so they aren’t as good as I want them to be. As such they probably look worse than they are so after you have read them take them with a grain of salt in that they should be better worded and more organized.
Someone already asked
I cast Clone in a body possessed by Magic Jar... (sageadvice.eu)
Oh look, doesn't work because RAW....
Besides, it's not vague wording, possess in this context means to have complete power and control over something, which is not the same as to become something (I possess and control a car, it doesn't mean I am a car. When controlling it, for all intents and purposes we move as one, but I'm still not a car). That is the crux of the issue, but there are further reasons it won't work RAW, which is also why Death Ward and destroying the jar won't work.
If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. <= The material component to the spell has been destroyed. Spell ends because one of it's components that it requires to function no longer exists. Thus, caster is forced to leave host body to return their body. In order to retain possession, the spell needs to be active. In this case, that'll be the spell that ended and is no longer active because it's required component was destroyed. Furthermore, the act of returning to your point of origin means you leave where you were, irrespective of whether or not you can actually get back to where you originally started from.
While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body. <= To possess a creature, the caster needs to be in the jar. Once they have left the host body, the can't possess it unless that are in the jar. In this case, that'll be the destroyed jar that the caster isn't in because it no longer exists.
If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. <= The caster dies because they aren't in a body and they can't return to their body. Death Ward would only prevent this death if it was cast on the caster's body, because it stops the touched creature from dying (even that is debatable, RAW as it stops effects of spells and this is an effect of the spell being finished, not the spell itself). It does not provide the caster with the ability to possess a creature that was due to a spell that is no longer in effect that requires a component that no longer exists.
If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies. <= Creature only dies if it can't return to it's body. Not be able to return does not stop the caster from being forced to leave the host body, nor does it allow them to possess the body once they have left. Furthermore, if a creature dies, it's body and soul both die, as one cannot live without the other (The above plus If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies... In order to for a creature to be alive, the body needs to be alive and the soul needs to be able to return to it if it has left). A caster can't possess a dead creature, because when the body dies, the caster is forced to leave.
What Death Ward would do is stop the host body dying whilst the caster was possessing it.
Same way two Magic Jar spells doesn't work because 1) at no point is the host body your body, and 2) if the creature's soul can't return to it's body, it dies and you can't return to a dead body (not withstanding the basic logic errors in the two jars argument that stop it dead with regard to body at casting and spells ending).
That's pretty much what I said. The fact that you control someone doesn't mean that you've become that person. But, it is hard to win a debate when people think that the fact that you are outnumbered is evidence that you are wrong.
What you were wrong about that I also found you wrong about was wish. You had no evidence of any kind and refused to provide any, while we had some evidence that you didn’t accept. You were outnumbered, but that wasn’t why you were wrong. I made no comment on magic jar in favor of anyone and you weren’t outnumbered there.
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You had no evidence, just random quotes that failed to relate to the question.
Back to you, except not even any random quotes. You barely attempted to prove anything. That is why we didn’t see your point. Because you didn’t try to show it. Any amount of evidence in your favor would have beaten “more people think this.” But you provided literally none, and no attempt at any.
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I'm not the one who lied and claimed that my position was RAW.
I'm not the one who posted a bunch of random quotes from the rulebooks (what did you do, roll dice to make your selection?) and claimed it backed my position.
In fact, I repeatedly pointed out that my position wasn't taken directly from RAW, but it does avoid making an arbitrary and indefensible distinction between range and casting time. It also doesn't make high-level campaigns unplayable.
I, also, didn't say that you "ground my gears" by disagreeing with me.
At this point it's likely not productive to keep harking on this issue so let's just move on eh?
Answer: Wren you have to be joking I'll do this once. Instead of just showing you "a bunch of random quotes from the rulebooks" I'll show you the ones I've used and explain why it is there:
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects."
Explanation: As shown above the same basic rules are followed for EVERY spell that a character casts regardless of the spell's effect so a spell like Wish still follows the basic rules in it's spell description regardless of the fact it duplicates a spell as it's spell effect. As such when you spend an action to instantaneously speak aloud your Wish to yourself you activate the effect of the Wish spell. The Wish spell's spell effect is to duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower.
Now I want to draw extra attention to the sentence "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower," notice that it says it duplicates the spell not casts it now if it said cast it Wren you might have been able to have an argument but it says "duplicate" meaning the wizard isn't casting the spell but essentially duplicating it's effects.
So in short when you cast Wish after casting it the spell's effect lets you duplicate any spell. You can see this separation of a spell and that spell's effect in this quote below:
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect."
Notice the "The rest of a spell's entry describes the spell's effect," that means that I am right in that when you cast Wish you use it's 'casting time, range, components, and duration" and the rest of the wish is the spell's effect.
Since I already referenced Wish I don't need to go in depth especially when I've linked the spell already many times so you can just read it again.
Wren if you say that this isn't RAW one more time you lose all credibility as these are once again direct quotes from the PHB with page numbers from an official rulebook from Wizards of the Coast.
Thank you. It duplicates the effect without actually casting the spell. The range and duration things are RAO (rules as obvious) because they technically aren’t written in, but they are both the only way that makes any sense.
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Answer: First Link this post shows that their tweets aren't RAW not even Jeremy Crawford tweets are official as all it is, is just advice. And sage advice isn't and was never intended to be RAW just advice while Jeremy Crawford's tweets were considered official advice but now his tweets aren't even considered that so you've proven nothing. Lastly what strategy are we talking since what you shown like only covers like one strategy since all the other ones end off with Magic Jar not active anymore...
Answer: Hey that one heck of a false equivalency if I ever saw one compounded by you twisting the definition of possession as well. 1) Possession refers to the act of a spirit or in this case a soul inhabiting/occupying a body, while to possess refers to ownership/property of an person place or thing/object. 2) But were both techniqually right in that both definitions are a way to describe the same word but the difference between the two definitions is that yours doesn't take into context the situation while the other (mine) does as it refers to the spirit inhabiting the creature's body as opposed to yours which refers to just owning an person place or thing/object... so yeah...
Answer: Honestly I've read this part multiple times and it just makes no sense to me (sorry) but anyways it looks like your trying to argue that... I don't even wanna try it's all over the place... so instead I'll just show you why my double casting of Magic Jar works by going through each part of the last paragraph
"If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die."
When the wizard breaks the Jar #1 in the strategy the wizard is already in his own body so it's fine and his body isn't dead it was only ever catatonic for a bit so he doesn't die.
"If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies."
As for this part, since in the strategy the wizard moves the creature away so that it can't return back o it's body it dies as normal and you are fine.
now as for the people who say "but when you use your second Magic Jar the wizard's main body doesn't have a soul to swap" to that I say True Polymorph. The reason the wizard would cast True Polymorph on his body is to make his body into some random humanoid creature so you can swap it's soul into Jar #2. After doing that you have the True Polymorph cancelled and you return to your catatonic body and while you are essentially in a coma your Simulacrum goes and moves Jar #2 away and smashes it destroying the soul and makin you return to the body you cast the second Magic Jar spell on. As such you are now in your new body permanently.
So if it was too confusing as to what happened I'll say it again but what happened is that the original body was transformed into a form with a soul and that soul was used to swap again with Magic Jar then the transformation was cancelled so the wizard reverted to a essentially comatose (catatonic) body and has his simulacrum move away and break Jar #2 as to make the wizard return to the body he cast the second Magic Jar on. I don't know if that made it easier to understand but it's here if it does help.
Answer:
1) Cast Magic Jar on yourself, your body falls catatonic, and your soul enters Jar #1.
2) You project your soul and possess a humanoid. The humanoid’s soul enters Jar #1.
3) You cast Death Ward on yourself, to negate an effect that would instantly kill you.
4) You move your catatonic body 100ft away from you. You destroy Jar #1.
5) You are farther than 100ft from your body you die. Death Ward negates it. The Magic Jar spell ends.
6) Magic Jar is over, you are not dead, your body was to far away, your soul is unable attempt to return your body*
7) That means your soul has to be in the humanoid body it makes no sense for it to be anywhere else.
8) You are now that creature permanently.
*The reason why your soul doesn't attempt to return is because while it is said the soul immediately returns that is directly contradicted by the fact that the soul is given a range at which it attempts to return to the body that is 100ft (see bolded) and that is why it dies because it doesn't have the needed range to attempt to even begin the journey so you just die. This is supported by the "or" separating the two clauses and the comma before the "you die." Another point that shows that this is the correct interpretation of the rules (RAW) is the next sentence after that (underlined) shows that for the soul to attempt to return the to its body the body must be within 100ft just like before. So what I'm trying to say is that the soul knows it can't make the distance so you instead die but due to Death Ward that instance of death is avoided and since the Magic Jar spell ends your soul is no longer under the influence of the Magic Jar's effect to kill you so you instead live in your new humanoid body.
"If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet."
Answer: Magic Jar, Range: self. The first sentence is: "Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component."
Now if your going to tell me that when you are possessing a creature with with Magic Jar that spells with a range of self don't work just to make this spell combo not work then I honestly don't know what to say to you... as for the other stuff I think I've already addressed them.
Anyways do tell if I missed something, because I honestly took so much time on this post I can barely remember what I did/didn't address. Sorry this is such a complex topic.
I found another way to become a monster with class levels observe Shapechange. With that spell and casting Wish to cast Clone all you need to do is wait for the Clone to mature then die. Now you must be wondering as Shapechange has a 1 hour duration how would you stay in that form until the clone matures and the answer is you don't, you simply cast the spell again after it matures then have a naturally casted Simulacrum cast Power Word Kill on you after you damage your form below 100hp. Although as Shapechange is kinda weird in how it is worded you might not even have to assume the cloned creatures form when you die as it still is you but I digress.
Additionally there's some absolute shenanigan's you can do with spell Time Ravage as the spell rapidly ages a target's body until they are 30 days away from death by old age. That means you could rapidly age a dragon so they become ancient or perhaps something greater like a greatwyrm although from the lore of the greatwyrm it doesn't get its poaslongwer from age as most dragons do but from like these remnant echo thingys but thats not the point. With Time Ravage you could potentially mature a clone in an instant as long as you consider the inert clone as a creature.
Anyways do tell if I messed up or something.
That’s all iffy. If I happened to be DMing for a player that tried to do this, I would make the first just create a copy of your original body and the second either not work at all or worse, work. Time ravage would leave the body 30 days from dying, something not desirable.
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The issue with clone + shapechange (or any buff) is that there's no reason to believe that it would make a permanent copy of the shapechange spell. Nothing mentions if temporary buffs are transferred over, and if they were, it would make sense to me that the duration would just run as normal (and probably run out during the growth process)
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Answer: I understand how you but it's just not how it works as when you transform you adopt that creatures stats and form becoming the creature so when you cast Clone on yourself since you are that creature Clone sees that as your original body and a clone is made so when you die in that form you would enter into your Clone. And lets entertain the idea that Clone chooses the non transformed body as the original body after casting it that would mean if you ever used True Polymorph on a rock for object into creature then used Clone since the target would be a living creature but the "original body" was the rock you would Clone a rock which you know kinda isn't possible barring Arcanist's Magic Aura but who would want to clone a rock in the first place... wait maybe... just kidding there is no amazing thing you could do... or is there.
Anyways that's why it Clone works, since you are essentially that creature for the duration of the spell so when you cast Clone you clone that creatures body.
I hope I said that well but either way do tell if I missed something or messed up.