Best way to defeat a high level wizard is to befriend them, ply them with drink, get them talking about all the cool tricks they know (most Wizards love to talk about how clever they are) and once you've learned enough to undo their contingencies (or pay someone to do it for you) stab them in their sleep 😉
It's not a direct way to do it, and requires careful planning and strategy, but any character can defeat a Wizard if they have enough time to learn where their clone is etc.
This at least a new outside the box approach and I like it!
It seems we may be shifting from Fighter vs Wizard, to Some Class vs Wizard… now I can’t say if that’s a good thing or a bad thing but all I can say to this is that unless we ether: improve the fighters build, improve the wizard build, come up with new builds, or create new strategies/tactics for ether side it seems the builds are stuck at being the Seppuku Samurai (Half-Elf/Custom Lineage depending) and the Supreme Wizard (Satyr/Custom Lineage/Hobgoblin + Chronurgist/Divination/Abjuration) builds.
P.S: For some reason I’m not being notified when posts are made on this forum so sorry for all the late replies.
Befriend then ehhhhh… plausible but tbh most wizard are very wary (I mean VERY) so you could befriend them maybe if you became there companion awhile back and go for the long con but nothing is guaranteed so he might pry into you or even check your intent with your partnership. As for supplying them with drink to loosen their lips depends on the wizard but most (if not all) wizards who attain such height in arcane prowess probably keep knowledge about their traps, contingencies, and other such vital information close to their chest even among “friends.”
I feel like you're making a LOT of assumptions in only one direction there; befriending is as much about your Charisma than the target's wariness and there are ways around even that. For example, you could also engineer a circumstance to get them to trust you initially, e.g- a plot against the wizard that you then help to foil. D&D is a game in which inventive play should absolutely be rewarded, and that's arguably a core mechanic in the game.
As for getting the actual information out of them that's easy, "Who would win in a fight, you or a dragon?", just keep pushing scenarios until you've got all the information you need (what their contingency might be, what backups they have with a simulacrum, clone etc.). It's basic information gathering, you just have to make sure it only seems like curiosity (of the fawning, intellectual or casual variety, dependent upon the wizard), i.e- don't ask too much at once. You can also ask about particular spells, after all, who wouldn't ask a wizard about magic?
Any character can be wary, but Wizards have no particular advantages when it comes to Insight (especially if focused on DEX/INT with a bit of CON).
It was mostly a silly suggestion anyway, since the thread is very much focused on combat solutions to the question (as sadly 99% of threads on DDB seem to be 😝), but Wizards aren't especially good at the social side of D&D, especially defensively (and even offensively requires research and/or trickery).
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Haravikk I was more talking about the wizards personality of being wary. And as such of being a wary person you can’t just be persuaded as it just can’t be done. Like say Asmodeus came to me and tried to persuade me to commit suicide like no matter how persuasive he was he could not get me (the wizard) to do such a thing… so what I’m saying is there are things that no matter how high your persuasion roll is you just can’t get someone to do (like my extreme example of suicide) as such no matter how persuasive this wanna-be assassin of the wizard may be it doesn’t change how this wizard acts nor does ever change his personality (being say paranoid).
And the reason why I peg most/all wizards as these Mastermind Uber Prepared Paranoid Researching Hermits is because that is how I feel most wizards are to act or be in their lives especially if they got all the way up to level 20 so they must have been doing something right along their path of eternal life (Apotheosis, Lichdom, Immortality, Clone, Possession, Dracodom/Live longer, Dracolich/Shadow Dragon, Etc).
Buuutt of course these aren’t all wizards but just how I visulize how most of these great wise elders or genius prodigies of the arcane arts are…
There are two things that you can do to a Wizard that they cannot stop. One is that you can ruin their reputation.
If you are feeling cruel, start telling tales about them, a Bard is especially good at this, but anyone with a high charisma can do it. People love a good story, and the bigger and more powerful the character in the story, the more delight people take in mocking them. No amount of denial ever catches up with a rumor and the more scandalous the better! If you actually know anything about them, which is unlikely since they never come out of their Fortress of Solitude, have any servants, family or friends, add whatever you can find out into the story.
The more they try, the more powerful they are, the worse it gets for them. All their efforts are just adding gasoline to a fire. They just make the tales spread or the wipe out all sentient life around them for miles and miles. If nothing else, that kind of thing draws the attention of the gods themselves, and pretty soon the gods are laughing along with the joke.
Or, of course, you could just ignore them. They are paranoid after all, they have irrational fears, and that is an exploitable weakness no spell or any amount of preparation can help with since they do it to themselves. Let them stay in their Fortress Of Solitude like the Hermits they are, let them go mad researching into arcane secrets. There's no danger of them ever coming out.
Getting some magical items certainly is the baseline for more aptly comparing these scenarios. 20 levels of just mindlessly killing rats that have come through the Portal to the Plane of Rats has given you experience, but left you completely devoid of any items to help you kill stuff!
Some cool items for a mage-killing Fighter:
1) Protection from Magic: Mantle of Spell Resistance, Spellguard Shield
2) Getting out of Forcecages: Helm of Teleportation, Voyager Staff (for EKs or with Feats)
3) Rod of Absorption
Some combination of these, combined with the right combination of Class and Race could quite easily go toe to toe with almost any Wizard.
Any other magic items that appeal to a mage-hunting Fighter?
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
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The only way to have a real chance of knowing who would come out on top in a battle between a level 20 Fighter and a level 20 Wizard would be for neither of them to have any magic items or preparations in effect at all. In the case of the Wizard, that would mean the Wizard would have to show up in the flesh, no clones, no simulacrums, none of that stuff. A True Seeing spell or item that provides that will sort it out. The Fighter gets to bring any non-magical weapons they like, the Wizard gets to prepare their spells before the fight (I know, I said no preparations, but spells are the functional equivalent of a Fighter's weapons, so either neither gets any, or both have to).
The fight itself should not have to be to the death, nor even to incapacitation, a surrender will do just fine. Obviously neither side would do such a thing, but the option should be there.
The most likely thing you will fight is a Bladesinger, which should make for an interesting fight.
Next is a Divination Wizard, and if they want to cast their Portent while in the arena to mess with 3 of your rolls before you make them, sure, let them.
Next is an Abjuration Wizard, and all their Ward does is give them some more hit points. That's fine.
It should be a good matchup, but any decent Bladesinger is at a disadvantage against a real Fighter, a Divination Wizard would know better than to challenge a Fighter under those circumstances, and I doubt an Abjuration Wizard's, extra hit points are going to get them anywhere near what you have when you have a d10, and they have a d6. The other choices they have are worse.
The only way to have a real chance of knowing who would come out on top in a battle between a level 20 Fighter and a level 20 Wizard would be for neither of them to have any magic items or preparations in effect at all. In the case of the Wizard, that would mean the Wizard would have to show up in the flesh, no clones, no simulacrums, none of that stuff. A True Seeing spell or item that provides that will sort it out. The Fighter gets to bring any non-magical weapons they like, the Wizard gets to prepare their spells before the fight (I know, I said no preparations, but spells are the functional equivalent of a Fighter's weapons, so either neither gets any, or both have to).
The fight itself should not have to be to the death, nor even to incapacitation, a surrender will do just fine. Obviously neither side would do such a thing, but the option should be there.
The most likely thing you will fight is a Bladesinger, which should make for an interesting fight.
Next is a Divination Wizard, and if they want to cast their Portent while in the arena to mess with 3 of your rolls before you make them, sure, let them.
Next is an Abjuration Wizard, and all their Ward does is give them some more hit points. That's fine.
It should be a good matchup, but any decent Bladesinger is at a disadvantage against a real Fighter, a Divination Wizard would know better than to challenge a Fighter under those circumstances, and I doubt an Abjuration Wizard's, extra hit points are going to get them anywhere near what you have when you have a d10, and they have a d6. The other choices they have are worse.
The fighter has to be an archer though or the wizard just levitates and destroys you from range. Having a greatsword doesn't do you much good if you are never going to be in range to use it.
So many variables in all of this. Probably too many to ever figure it out one way or the other. Is there cover readily available or they effectively out in the open? Who wins initiative? It matters quite a bit imo. If the fighter can win initiative and is in melee range, then with Action Surge, the fighter may end the fight early. So many variables...
The fighter has to be an archer though or the wizard just levitates and destroys you from range. Having a greatsword doesn't do you much good if you are never going to be in range to use it.
So many variables in all of this. Probably too many to ever figure it out one way or the other. Is there cover readily available or they effectively out in the open? Who wins initiative? It matters quite a bit imo. If the fighter can win initiative and is in melee range, then with Action Surge, the fighter may end the fight early. So many variables...
Answer: While range is important, reliable nova is king. It also helps that ranged builds have archery so they can have their SS shots have a better chance to hit.
As for the battlefield is a infinite whitebox and the starting distance is 20ft because it gives space to run away or engage. As having it above 25ft between the 2 players means that certain races couldn’t engage the other without expending an action to dash or whatever to close the expanse (Halfling, Dwarf, Gnome, etc). While it can’t being within 10-15 since that means that polearms and certain builds could reach their opponent right off the bat. So the distance must be around twenty feet to be fair for every class, race, strategy, and build.
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
They don't really need items.... Forcecage + sickening radiance is about all they need.
Honestly just something to maximize initiative would be the best call.
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
They don't really need items.... Forcecage + sickening radiance is about all they need.
Honestly just something to maximize initiative would be the best call.
Answer: Weeeelll I got a few things to say:
1. If we were to add magic items it’d be too many variables to consider kinda because it fully depends on how many and what rarities of magic items are allowed.
like can the Eldritch Knight just take a staff of the magi drop everything into hp (survival) then walk towards the wizard and after using his bonus/action to attack the wizard snap the staff over his knee for 400 force damage (while the EK may take 800 force damage he can use absorb elements to half the damage) though even if the wizard also has absorb elements he still takes 200 damage and that’s a lot.
2. There is the problem of where the fighter would usually benefit more from magic items like say the fighter and wizard get boots of flying while the fighter now gains a whole new movement option the wizard just saves a spell slot… now I’m not saying this goes for everything (as it doesn’t) but most of the time a magic item is going to be akin to a scroll for a wizard in other words just saving a spell slot… but then again that is not for everything as wizards not only benefit greatly from boosts to their spell save DC, AC, or Initiative but also to their own saves so if a wizard wanted a decent low level magic item a cloak/ring of protection is great for them (but that kinda goes for anything so…).
P.S: Pay no attention to this if you don’t know of my “Become an Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon” strategy. Ok since I guess one could argue “hey since true polymorph and magic jar are dispellable could someone just get rid of their dragon power” yes that is kinda true (could be argued… not really… but could). Now then if you think then that I got the perfect thing for you first off use your change shape to now become a humanoid (how you would probably look before becoming the dragon) then cast clone and since it clones a medium humanoid you now clone yourself then after the clone gets to the age you want/matures you hurt yourself to below 100 ho then cast Power Word Kill and you die the reason for this is because it could be argued that if you were to die (reverting to your normal form) you are not that creature anymore blah blah blah you get it so you must insta kill yourself to make sure your soul enters the clone of your alter body and since true polymorph makes you that creature that means after you killed yourself you TRULY TRUTHFULLY now become a true dragon as your clone even though it is a copy of you doesn’t technically have you spell part only the effect so now you are truly a True Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon… sorry for the rambling but if you don’t know and your like what’s he talking about all I’m saying is this is all possible according to RAW I’ve done my research hahaahahhahahaha… haha.
Do tell if I missed something, or just plain old didn’t address something.
True polymorph doesn't let you retain your ability to cast your wizard spells; your statistics are temporarily (or semi-permanently) replaced by the stat block of the creature you're turning into. That throws the clone + power word kill combo out the window. Shapechange lets you keep your wizard spells, but is strictly temporary.
Now, boosting initiative rolls sounds like a viable way for the nova fighter to win the fight against non-Diviners. Champions get half-proficiency to initiative, plus they should have the ASIs to both get Sharpshooter and Alert AND max out their Dexterity (and Constitution). Slap on a longbow (or hand crossbow if you further invest into that) and spam -5/+10 projectiles.
Remember, if the wizard wins initiative, it's practically over already.
True polymorph doesn't let you retain your ability to cast your wizard spells; your statistics are temporarily (or semi-permanently) replaced by the stat block of the creature you're turning into. That throws the clone + power word kill combo out the window. Shapechange lets you keep your wizard spells, but is strictly temporary.
Answer: By how you say that… that means you haven’t seen the semi-thread about of “How to Become a Spellcasting Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon” as you would know that I use the spells True Polymorph, and Magic Jar as the main spells while Simulacrum, Clone, and Power Word Kill. The reason for the clone and power word kill are for the absolute permanency of the form. As for the Simulacrum it is there to make sure everything works so you can transform into the true polymorphed form. Also just saying say if the wizard acquired a powerful creature over time the Wizard could true polymorph the creature into a humanoid then possess it and become that creature then become that creature forever. And if you encounter any problems there is nothing a Wish can’t fix.
Now, boosting initiative rolls sounds like a viable way for the nova fighter to win the fight against non-Diviners. Champions get half-proficiency to initiative, plus they should have the ASIs to both get Sharpshooter and Alert AND max out their Dexterity (and Constitution). Slap on a longbow (or hand crossbow if you further invest into that) and spam -5/+10 projectiles.
Remember, if the wizard wins initiative, it's practically over already.
Answer: Chronurgist and War Magic can add their Int to their initiative while the Chronurgist and Divination wizard have dice manipulation while any class can get Alert. As for the SS and longbow… we have builds that already do that see the latest version of the Seppuku Samurai Fighter and it does it better especially since it has a musket (Gunner) for more damage since yeah… if you look back I don’t have to spell out the entire build/s if the fighter.
Yeah if wizard goes first/gets a turn there’s so many options to do anything the wizard can just win…
3rd-level monk feature If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
there ya go, badabing badaboom you can cast silence and make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, or strike him with a sword, or shoot him with a gun if you have one of those
plus even if that bonus action unarmed strike happens to miss or the stunning strike does not go off, the wizard would still trigger an opportunity attack from the monk if they tried to move away, and if that opportunity attack hits the wizard well you're shit outa luck mate your speed is now 0 (sentinel feat) and you are no longer allowed to do anything, and thanks again to tasha's cauldron of everything the monk could spend ki to increase that attack roll by as much as +6, meaning that if the monk really needed that one opportunity attack to land, it ****ing will 95% of the time unless you happen to have an armor class of 20. Remember that within the area of a silence spell, you cannot cast shield
Answer: Yeah I forgot about ki-fuelled attack but now what? Just saying at 20th level you have a 60ft movement speed. Ok imma run you through the scenarios:
1st: You move 60ft away (expending 40ft of movement), Action cast Silence, move 20ft back you are now within 40ft of the wizard now you bonus action step of the wind, now you within 5ft of the wizard with 20ft of movement to spare. You end your turn. Wizards turn…
2nd: You have Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell). You as an action cast a silent silence and move the 20ft to engage the wizard. You use bonus action to make 1 bonus action strike (at ether disadvantage (Chronal Shift), auto miss (Portent/Convergent Future) or reroll on hit (lucky)) where if you have lucky you can help yourself a little bit with a reroll. You end your turn. Wizards turn…
3rd: You have Metamagic Adept (Quickened Spell). You move 60ft away (expending 40ft of movement), Bonus action silence, move 20ft back you are now within 40ft of the wizard now you action dash, now you are within 5ft of the wizard with 20ft of movement to spare. You end your turn. Wizards turn…
Just saying your over estimating what the monk can do on his turn by like I think… a lot.
Next… so why in the world is the wizard purposely making the monk get a AoO? So that ends the rest of that… As for Focused Aim the optional tashas feature sure it’s good? But that doesn’t matter if your stunning strike doesn’t land as the only way to win is if you stop the wizard from getting a turn.
you do not seem to actiually understand what i am doing or how this setup works, so let me just make a few things clear:
Sentinel
You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
the monk build(s) i described would all use this feat, sentinel. If the wizard has no way to subtle-spell their way out of the silence zone, they would have to walk using their legs. If the wizard tries to walk their way out using their legs, they trigger an opportunity attack, regardless of weather or not they took the disengage action beforehand, and if the monk's opportunity attack hits the wizard then the wizard's speed becomes 0 and once again they cannot ******* move. The monk does not actiually need to stun-lock the wizard not even during their first turn for the strategy to work.
Also both of these scenarios assume that you are having to use the dash action if you want to move 120 feet on your turn, when that is simply not the case for an tabaxi monk thanks to the following feature:
Feline Agility
Your reflexes and agility allow you to move with a burst of speed. When you move on your turn in combat, you can double your speed until the end of the turn. Once you use this trait, you can’t use it again until you move 0 feet on one of your turns.
so in two out of the three scenarios where you assumed that the monk would get no attacks, a tabaxi monk would indeed be able to throw in one or two unarmed strikes
P.S: tbh this entire debate could be just finish by saying “I build a resist nova build with metamagic subtle spell” because with that you can just when it hits your turn say “I cast a silent wish,” DM “what do you wish for?” me “I win” of course it would be those but something that would guarantee your victory via the opponents death. But yeah whatever it better to have them “fight” than just the wizard choosing to win.
stating such an vaguely worded wish is just a recipe for disaster and an open invitation for the DM to screw you over
As for your “is there anything a wizard could do to fight the monk who is trapping them within this bubble” I don’t know how about like survive one measly punch from a monk, build high AC, build high saves, control dice, become a tank, wdym “is there anything?” the wizard has so many things he could do.
Also why would the wizard like over half the time ever care if they are grappled? Sure they can’t move but like… so I can just say “I teleport 10 000 or more ft into the air” then as your fall 500ft per round you like just do whatever you want…
if the wizard lacks subtle spell, the fact that the wizard is able to survive some punches does not exactly matter, you are still a spellcaster reduced to not being able to cast most of your spells. See entry below for why that is important to notice
tell me, is every single wizard ever made going to have the Subtle Spell metamagic option? Will even all of your proposed wizard builds have it? If they don't, is there anything a wizard could do to fight the monk who is trapping them within this bubble thanks to the sentinel feat + grappling + some other stuff? The only reliable strat i can think of is to never get grappled (and thus never get stunned on your first turn and thus probably have resilient (con)) and then cast mislead. And that relies on a wizard preparing mislead, i mean like who does that? And of course there are many ways to mislead-proof your strategy by for instance swapping a bonus to wisdom for Metamagic Adept, casting the silence spell as a bonus action via quickened spell and then using an action to grapple the wizard instead. Sure the wizard can try to escape the grapple as their action and then escape using their remaining movement, but then they would have to deal with the opportunity attack and the sentinel feat and also the monk could try to knock them prone first to help
Answer: Yes in a real world not every wizard would have Metamagic Adept but also in a real world you also wouldn’t have a silence wizard assassin monk with Metamagic Adept… so what are you getting at becuase this is a specialized monk/fighter vs a specialized wizard in a whiteroom now if you want to put it in a “real world” there wouldn’t even be a matchup since in a “real world” the wizard would have won before you even knew you where going to fight and if by some godforsaken miracle you somehow “find” this wizard you would becuase the actual wizard is probably ether locked away in his own death trap of a wizard tower which is locked away in some demiplane of his design that is so filled with magic, traps, wards, spells, and the kitchen sinks that for even anyone to get near to him or even to figure out he is in a Demiplane is so impossible there is not even a point to mention his existence because for all you know he doesn’t exist.
my point has nothing to do with "realisim" or whatever, my point is is that feats are not exactly free (assuming you want max int you will be left with three asi's, if you want both lucky and metamagic adept then you have only one feat left for increasing your dexterity / con or to do other stuff) and that if the only way a wizard could ever win this matchup/ this strategy is to use that specific feat then that you would rarely use against the fighter then that in of itself says something about the potency of this tactic, as it narrows down the number of wizard builds that could handle this tactic. You could either make your wizard completely safe against the absurd scenario of a specially-built fighter comming to hunt you down or you can build your wizard to be safe against a level 20 monk hunting you down, but you could never do both
further things i ams just gonna mention without quoting you:
1) devil's sight + metamagic adept, you can subtle spell darkness to avoid counterspelling and GTFO as a bonus action
2) technically RAW eldrich adept and metamagic adept both require the Spellcasting feature, something that the shadow monk technically does not have, like the premise of the monk being able to pick these feats makes the matchup more interesting, and the more this becomes an weird magical arm-s race where both parties are trying to one-up eachother the more fun this discussion becomes
3) not to say that the premise of the match don't allow for you to run away and then gather power until you can win, just that the strategy itself sounds a bit silly, and would arguably mean that the wizard is forfeiting the match should such an scenario occur within an organized setting such as an tournament or whatever.
4) Forcecage + sickening radiance was the most reliable way cited to kill a monk (or rather the best way to kill a fighter, potato potahto), if a monk can survive it then that reflects well on the monk v wizard matchup even if there are other spells an wizard could use
5) problem is that the attack bonus for Animate objects does not scale, against an AC 20 monk (custom linneage + eldrich adept + metamagic adept + max dex and wisdom shadow monk who used their abillities to flee the initial Forcecage of course) most of the animated object's attacks will miss, especially if you are spending 1 ki point to use patient defense.
And of course if you decide to try and escape Forcecage using purely non-class related features (such as being an eladrin with the lucky feat, or mark of passage human + fey ancestry + metamagic adept) other monks of course have ways of gaining +2 AC to make these puny objects even more inaccurate (kensei and astral self) and AoE effects that could yeet multiple objects at once (notable one here is of course drunken master and four elements (shatter spell especially as these coins are considered inorganic), but astral self also deals an AoE when it activates it's main class feature).
Not to mention how the monk is faster, if it is valid to just teleport away from the fight and spend 30 years prepping willy-nilly then it is absolutely valid for a monk to spenk 1 ki point on step of the wind so that they may disengage as a bonus action, and then use an action to dash, leaving the animated objects with a meager 30 ft speed behind, something that would also be problematic for the animated objects as they are unable to "see" any creature more than 30 feet away from them and thus unable to follow a command such as "attack and kill the monk"
And all of that is not to mention how casting animate objects and using your bonus action to command the coins to attack means that the wizard is momentarily put in an vulnerable position where they can be attacked by an opportunistic monk who can try to stunning strike or just generally hurt the wizard to try and break it's concentration
point is while there are certainly spells that are effective against monks, animate objects is not one of those spells and animate objects is in fact bad and resource inefficient when dealing with a 20th level monk
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Ah, I see how magic jar fits into the equation; you true poly the simulacrum, then once it's been made permanent you magic jar into the snowman.
There's a critical flaw that comes up: dispel magic. I highly doubt you'd bring your jar 100 feet from the arena, and an EK can potentially start by casting it and being able to respond to an incoming counterspell with one of his/her own. It's not perfect, but it is a possibility.
This all assumes that the wizard is allowed prep-time, which may or may not be the case. If so, the likelihood of the fighter winning drops considerably without some counterbalance, as said wizard has multiple high-level spell effects in place while still starting the fight with all of their spell slots available.
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
What optimus said. The wizard doesn't need matchup specific items to succeed. Having access to matchup specific magic items and needing them to be able to compete isn't a strength of the fighter. It's a weakness.
All a wizard needs is a suite of defensive items. I'd throw in a horn of valhalla because fighters problem solve with damage. Maybe a ring of telekinesis to steal those precious items.
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
What optimus said. The wizard doesn't need matchup specific items to succeed. Having access to matchup specific magic items and needing them to be able to compete isn't a strength of the fighter. It's a weakness.
All a wizard needs is a suite of defensive items. I'd throw in a horn of valhalla because fighters problem solve with damage. Maybe a ring of telekinesis to steal those precious items.
Which if you were attuned to both you could have +3 to your DC (making a 19 into a 22) and cast spells without V/S/M components 3 times a day....meaning the silence strategy would not work very well then.
Haha thanks ArtificeMeal yeah Metamagic requires you to have the spellcasting or pact magic feature so you can’t even do such a strategy (since we doing RAW monk can’t use it) so the silence strategy is even worse.
Also while your entire monk build relies on the wizard not being optimized like having Metamagic Adept because if he does he can just grab Subtle Spell (Cast spell even if can’t speak/use arms), and Distant Spell (Double range of Counterspell: 120ft). Your monk is required to be optimized… as for the “there is no wizard build that would defeat both the fighter builds and monk builds” well I give you the satyr build that was made as not only does it defeat your Monk, The Eldritch Knight, And most Nova, the only thing it doesn’t defeat (though still holds the higher odds) is the Seppuku Samurai but with a little bit of some alterations the Satyr build can defeat it like all builds if not hold a higher win chance…
Since if the wizard has these metamagic your monk is useless that means even with tabaxi having a 120ft (180 step of the wind) he still can’t get back within range/melee because he just doesn’t have the movement speed to move out of the 120ft counterspell range then move within melee without using the dash Action but since you used your Action (for silence) your a goner as you just can’t close the distance.
P.S: As for your gripes about me not specifying the wish I thought it was pretty obvious that I would assume that the wizard would be able to better articulate his wish compared to me and even so could if I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent. As for your gripes for the others spells sure you “may” be able to try to get out of some but not all and as for the animate objects how could you not think to just give the order of “move forward then attack the monk” as when they would move forward they would see the monk but whatever. Also since life happened yeah that shadow monk dies in that Forcecage with sickening radius… unless you somehow argue that the dim light that you emit counts for the spell but whatever as such dim light could easily be overridden by the wizard just making another light source of bright light to make sure the monk could attempt to get away by overpowering the dim light.
Sorry if I missed something or didn’t address something so if I did do tell it is much appreciated.
TLDR: Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Distant Spell… The reason for the many spells listed is to highlight that the wizard has plenty of strategies (some greater than others) that would defeat any number of builds, Classes, and tactics. Also in an optimized whiteroom battle between a wizard and another player I see no reason for the wizard to not have Metamagic.
This at least a new outside the box approach and I like it!
It seems we may be shifting from Fighter vs Wizard, to Some Class vs Wizard… now I can’t say if that’s a good thing or a bad thing but all I can say to this is that unless we ether: improve the fighters build, improve the wizard build, come up with new builds, or create new strategies/tactics for ether side it seems the builds are stuck at being the Seppuku Samurai (Half-Elf/Custom Lineage depending) and the Supreme Wizard (Satyr/Custom Lineage/Hobgoblin + Chronurgist/Divination/Abjuration) builds.
P.S: For some reason I’m not being notified when posts are made on this forum so sorry for all the late replies.
I feel like you're making a LOT of assumptions in only one direction there; befriending is as much about your Charisma than the target's wariness and there are ways around even that. For example, you could also engineer a circumstance to get them to trust you initially, e.g- a plot against the wizard that you then help to foil. D&D is a game in which inventive play should absolutely be rewarded, and that's arguably a core mechanic in the game.
As for getting the actual information out of them that's easy, "Who would win in a fight, you or a dragon?", just keep pushing scenarios until you've got all the information you need (what their contingency might be, what backups they have with a simulacrum, clone etc.). It's basic information gathering, you just have to make sure it only seems like curiosity (of the fawning, intellectual or casual variety, dependent upon the wizard), i.e- don't ask too much at once. You can also ask about particular spells, after all, who wouldn't ask a wizard about magic?
Any character can be wary, but Wizards have no particular advantages when it comes to Insight (especially if focused on DEX/INT with a bit of CON).
It was mostly a silly suggestion anyway, since the thread is very much focused on combat solutions to the question (as sadly 99% of threads on DDB seem to be 😝), but Wizards aren't especially good at the social side of D&D, especially defensively (and even offensively requires research and/or trickery).
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Haravikk I was more talking about the wizards personality of being wary. And as such of being a wary person you can’t just be persuaded as it just can’t be done. Like say Asmodeus came to me and tried to persuade me to commit suicide like no matter how persuasive he was he could not get me (the wizard) to do such a thing… so what I’m saying is there are things that no matter how high your persuasion roll is you just can’t get someone to do (like my extreme example of suicide) as such no matter how persuasive this wanna-be assassin of the wizard may be it doesn’t change how this wizard acts nor does ever change his personality (being say paranoid).
And the reason why I peg most/all wizards as these Mastermind Uber Prepared Paranoid Researching Hermits is because that is how I feel most wizards are to act or be in their lives especially if they got all the way up to level 20 so they must have been doing something right along their path of eternal life (Apotheosis, Lichdom, Immortality, Clone, Possession, Dracodom/Live longer, Dracolich/Shadow Dragon, Etc).
Buuutt of course these aren’t all wizards but just how I visulize how most of these great wise elders or genius prodigies of the arcane arts are…
There are two things that you can do to a Wizard that they cannot stop. One is that you can ruin their reputation.
If you are feeling cruel, start telling tales about them, a Bard is especially good at this, but anyone with a high charisma can do it. People love a good story, and the bigger and more powerful the character in the story, the more delight people take in mocking them. No amount of denial ever catches up with a rumor and the more scandalous the better! If you actually know anything about them, which is unlikely since they never come out of their Fortress of Solitude, have any servants, family or friends, add whatever you can find out into the story.
The more they try, the more powerful they are, the worse it gets for them. All their efforts are just adding gasoline to a fire. They just make the tales spread or the wipe out all sentient life around them for miles and miles. If nothing else, that kind of thing draws the attention of the gods themselves, and pretty soon the gods are laughing along with the joke.
Or, of course, you could just ignore them. They are paranoid after all, they have irrational fears, and that is an exploitable weakness no spell or any amount of preparation can help with since they do it to themselves. Let them stay in their Fortress Of Solitude like the Hermits they are, let them go mad researching into arcane secrets. There's no danger of them ever coming out.
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Getting some magical items certainly is the baseline for more aptly comparing these scenarios. 20 levels of just mindlessly killing rats that have come through the Portal to the Plane of Rats has given you experience, but left you completely devoid of any items to help you kill stuff!
Some cool items for a mage-killing Fighter:
1) Protection from Magic: Mantle of Spell Resistance, Spellguard Shield
2) Getting out of Forcecages: Helm of Teleportation, Voyager Staff (for EKs or with Feats)
3) Rod of Absorption
Some combination of these, combined with the right combination of Class and Race could quite easily go toe to toe with almost any Wizard.
Any other magic items that appeal to a mage-hunting Fighter?
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
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The only way to have a real chance of knowing who would come out on top in a battle between a level 20 Fighter and a level 20 Wizard would be for neither of them to have any magic items or preparations in effect at all. In the case of the Wizard, that would mean the Wizard would have to show up in the flesh, no clones, no simulacrums, none of that stuff. A True Seeing spell or item that provides that will sort it out. The Fighter gets to bring any non-magical weapons they like, the Wizard gets to prepare their spells before the fight (I know, I said no preparations, but spells are the functional equivalent of a Fighter's weapons, so either neither gets any, or both have to).
The fight itself should not have to be to the death, nor even to incapacitation, a surrender will do just fine. Obviously neither side would do such a thing, but the option should be there.
It should be a good matchup, but any decent Bladesinger is at a disadvantage against a real Fighter, a Divination Wizard would know better than to challenge a Fighter under those circumstances, and I doubt an Abjuration Wizard's, extra hit points are going to get them anywhere near what you have when you have a d10, and they have a d6. The other choices they have are worse.
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The fighter has to be an archer though or the wizard just levitates and destroys you from range. Having a greatsword doesn't do you much good if you are never going to be in range to use it.
So many variables in all of this. Probably too many to ever figure it out one way or the other. Is there cover readily available or they effectively out in the open? Who wins initiative? It matters quite a bit imo. If the fighter can win initiative and is in melee range, then with Action Surge, the fighter may end the fight early. So many variables...
Answer: While range is important, reliable nova is king. It also helps that ranged builds have archery so they can have their SS shots have a better chance to hit.
As for the battlefield is a infinite whitebox and the starting distance is 20ft because it gives space to run away or engage. As having it above 25ft between the 2 players means that certain races couldn’t engage the other without expending an action to dash or whatever to close the expanse (Halfling, Dwarf, Gnome, etc). While it can’t being within 10-15 since that means that polearms and certain builds could reach their opponent right off the bat. So the distance must be around twenty feet to be fair for every class, race, strategy, and build.
They don't really need items.... Forcecage + sickening radiance is about all they need.
Honestly just something to maximize initiative would be the best call.
Answer: Weeeelll I got a few things to say:
1. If we were to add magic items it’d be too many variables to consider kinda because it fully depends on how many and what rarities of magic items are allowed.
like can the Eldritch Knight just take a staff of the magi drop everything into hp (survival) then walk towards the wizard and after using his bonus/action to attack the wizard snap the staff over his knee for 400 force damage (while the EK may take 800 force damage he can use absorb elements to half the damage) though even if the wizard also has absorb elements he still takes 200 damage and that’s a lot.
2. There is the problem of where the fighter would usually benefit more from magic items like say the fighter and wizard get boots of flying while the fighter now gains a whole new movement option the wizard just saves a spell slot… now I’m not saying this goes for everything (as it doesn’t) but most of the time a magic item is going to be akin to a scroll for a wizard in other words just saving a spell slot… but then again that is not for everything as wizards not only benefit greatly from boosts to their spell save DC, AC, or Initiative but also to their own saves so if a wizard wanted a decent low level magic item a cloak/ring of protection is great for them (but that kinda goes for anything so…).
P.S: Pay no attention to this if you don’t know of my “Become an Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon” strategy. Ok since I guess one could argue “hey since true polymorph and magic jar are dispellable could someone just get rid of their dragon power” yes that is kinda true (could be argued… not really… but could). Now then if you think then that I got the perfect thing for you first off use your change shape to now become a humanoid (how you would probably look before becoming the dragon) then cast clone and since it clones a medium humanoid you now clone yourself then after the clone gets to the age you want/matures you hurt yourself to below 100 ho then cast Power Word Kill and you die the reason for this is because it could be argued that if you were to die (reverting to your normal form) you are not that creature anymore blah blah blah you get it so you must insta kill yourself to make sure your soul enters the clone of your alter body and since true polymorph makes you that creature that means after you killed yourself you TRULY TRUTHFULLY now become a true dragon as your clone even though it is a copy of you doesn’t technically have you spell part only the effect so now you are truly a True Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon… sorry for the rambling but if you don’t know and your like what’s he talking about all I’m saying is this is all possible according to RAW I’ve done my research hahaahahhahahaha… haha.
Do tell if I missed something, or just plain old didn’t address something.
True polymorph doesn't let you retain your ability to cast your wizard spells; your statistics are temporarily (or semi-permanently) replaced by the stat block of the creature you're turning into. That throws the clone + power word kill combo out the window. Shapechange lets you keep your wizard spells, but is strictly temporary.
Now, boosting initiative rolls sounds like a viable way for the nova fighter to win the fight against non-Diviners. Champions get half-proficiency to initiative, plus they should have the ASIs to both get Sharpshooter and Alert AND max out their Dexterity (and Constitution). Slap on a longbow (or hand crossbow if you further invest into that) and spam -5/+10 projectiles.
Remember, if the wizard wins initiative, it's practically over already.
Answer: By how you say that… that means you haven’t seen the semi-thread about of “How to Become a Spellcasting Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon” as you would know that I use the spells True Polymorph, and Magic Jar as the main spells while Simulacrum, Clone, and Power Word Kill. The reason for the clone and power word kill are for the absolute permanency of the form. As for the Simulacrum it is there to make sure everything works so you can transform into the true polymorphed form. Also just saying say if the wizard acquired a powerful creature over time the Wizard could true polymorph the creature into a humanoid then possess it and become that creature then become that creature forever. And if you encounter any problems there is nothing a Wish can’t fix.
Answer: Chronurgist and War Magic can add their Int to their initiative while the Chronurgist and Divination wizard have dice manipulation while any class can get Alert. As for the SS and longbow… we have builds that already do that see the latest version of the Seppuku Samurai Fighter and it does it better especially since it has a musket (Gunner) for more damage since yeah… if you look back I don’t have to spell out the entire build/s if the fighter.
Yeah if wizard goes first/gets a turn there’s so many options to do anything the wizard can just win…
you do not seem to actiually understand what i am doing or how this setup works, so let me just make a few things clear:
the monk build(s) i described would all use this feat, sentinel. If the wizard has no way to subtle-spell their way out of the silence zone, they would have to walk using their legs. If the wizard tries to walk their way out using their legs, they trigger an opportunity attack, regardless of weather or not they took the disengage action beforehand, and if the monk's opportunity attack hits the wizard then the wizard's speed becomes 0 and once again they cannot ******* move. The monk does not actiually need to stun-lock the wizard not even during their first turn for the strategy to work.
Also both of these scenarios assume that you are having to use the dash action if you want to move 120 feet on your turn, when that is simply not the case for an tabaxi monk thanks to the following feature:
so in two out of the three scenarios where you assumed that the monk would get no attacks, a tabaxi monk would indeed be able to throw in one or two unarmed strikes
stating such an vaguely worded wish is just a recipe for disaster and an open invitation for the DM to screw you over
if the wizard lacks subtle spell, the fact that the wizard is able to survive some punches does not exactly matter, you are still a spellcaster reduced to not being able to cast most of your spells. See entry below for why that is important to notice
my point has nothing to do with "realisim" or whatever, my point is is that feats are not exactly free (assuming you want max int you will be left with three asi's, if you want both lucky and metamagic adept then you have only one feat left for increasing your dexterity / con or to do other stuff) and that if the only way a wizard could ever win this matchup/ this strategy is to use that specific feat then that you would rarely use against the fighter then that in of itself says something about the potency of this tactic, as it narrows down the number of wizard builds that could handle this tactic. You could either make your wizard completely safe against the absurd scenario of a specially-built fighter comming to hunt you down or you can build your wizard to be safe against a level 20 monk hunting you down, but you could never do both
further things i ams just gonna mention without quoting you:
1) devil's sight + metamagic adept, you can subtle spell darkness to avoid counterspelling and GTFO as a bonus action
2) technically RAW eldrich adept and metamagic adept both require the Spellcasting feature, something that the shadow monk technically does not have, like the premise of the monk being able to pick these feats makes the matchup more interesting, and the more this becomes an weird magical arm-s race where both parties are trying to one-up eachother the more fun this discussion becomes
3) not to say that the premise of the match don't allow for you to run away and then gather power until you can win, just that the strategy itself sounds a bit silly, and would arguably mean that the wizard is forfeiting the match should such an scenario occur within an organized setting such as an tournament or whatever.
4) Forcecage + sickening radiance was the most reliable way cited to kill a monk (or rather the best way to kill a fighter, potato potahto), if a monk can survive it then that reflects well on the monk v wizard matchup even if there are other spells an wizard could use
5) problem is that the attack bonus for Animate objects does not scale, against an AC 20 monk (custom linneage + eldrich adept + metamagic adept + max dex and wisdom shadow monk who used their abillities to flee the initial Forcecage of course) most of the animated object's attacks will miss, especially if you are spending 1 ki point to use patient defense.
And of course if you decide to try and escape Forcecage using purely non-class related features (such as being an eladrin with the lucky feat, or mark of passage human + fey ancestry + metamagic adept) other monks of course have ways of gaining +2 AC to make these puny objects even more inaccurate (kensei and astral self) and AoE effects that could yeet multiple objects at once (notable one here is of course drunken master and four elements (shatter spell especially as these coins are considered inorganic), but astral self also deals an AoE when it activates it's main class feature).
Not to mention how the monk is faster, if it is valid to just teleport away from the fight and spend 30 years prepping willy-nilly then it is absolutely valid for a monk to spenk 1 ki point on step of the wind so that they may disengage as a bonus action, and then use an action to dash, leaving the animated objects with a meager 30 ft speed behind, something that would also be problematic for the animated objects as they are unable to "see" any creature more than 30 feet away from them and thus unable to follow a command such as "attack and kill the monk"
And all of that is not to mention how casting animate objects and using your bonus action to command the coins to attack means that the wizard is momentarily put in an vulnerable position where they can be attacked by an opportunistic monk who can try to stunning strike or just generally hurt the wizard to try and break it's concentration
point is while there are certainly spells that are effective against monks, animate objects is not one of those spells and animate objects is in fact bad and resource inefficient when dealing with a 20th level monk
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Ah, I see how magic jar fits into the equation; you true poly the simulacrum, then once it's been made permanent you magic jar into the snowman.
There's a critical flaw that comes up: dispel magic. I highly doubt you'd bring your jar 100 feet from the arena, and an EK can potentially start by casting it and being able to respond to an incoming counterspell with one of his/her own. It's not perfect, but it is a possibility.
This all assumes that the wizard is allowed prep-time, which may or may not be the case. If so, the likelihood of the fighter winning drops considerably without some counterbalance, as said wizard has multiple high-level spell effects in place while still starting the fight with all of their spell slots available.
What optimus said. The wizard doesn't need matchup specific items to succeed. Having access to matchup specific magic items and needing them to be able to compete isn't a strength of the fighter. It's a weakness.
All a wizard needs is a suite of defensive items. I'd throw in a horn of valhalla because fighters problem solve with damage. Maybe a ring of telekinesis to steal those precious items.
Tashas also has:
Crystalline Chronicle - Magic Items - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Arcane Grimoire - Magic Items - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Which if you were attuned to both you could have +3 to your DC (making a 19 into a 22) and cast spells without V/S/M components 3 times a day....meaning the silence strategy would not work very well then.
Haha thanks ArtificeMeal yeah Metamagic requires you to have the spellcasting or pact magic feature so you can’t even do such a strategy (since we doing RAW monk can’t use it) so the silence strategy is even worse.
Also while your entire monk build relies on the wizard not being optimized like having Metamagic Adept because if he does he can just grab Subtle Spell (Cast spell even if can’t speak/use arms), and Distant Spell (Double range of Counterspell: 120ft). Your monk is required to be optimized… as for the “there is no wizard build that would defeat both the fighter builds and monk builds” well I give you the satyr build that was made as not only does it defeat your Monk, The Eldritch Knight, And most Nova, the only thing it doesn’t defeat (though still holds the higher odds) is the Seppuku Samurai but with a little bit of some alterations the Satyr build can defeat it like all builds if not hold a higher win chance…
Since if the wizard has these metamagic your monk is useless that means even with tabaxi having a 120ft (180 step of the wind) he still can’t get back within range/melee because he just doesn’t have the movement speed to move out of the 120ft counterspell range then move within melee without using the dash Action but since you used your Action (for silence) your a goner as you just can’t close the distance.
P.S: As for your gripes about me not specifying the wish I thought it was pretty obvious that I would assume that the wizard would be able to better articulate his wish compared to me and even so could if I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent. As for your gripes for the others spells sure you “may” be able to try to get out of some but not all and as for the animate objects how could you not think to just give the order of “move forward then attack the monk” as when they would move forward they would see the monk but whatever. Also since life happened yeah that shadow monk dies in that Forcecage with sickening radius… unless you somehow argue that the dim light that you emit counts for the spell but whatever as such dim light could easily be overridden by the wizard just making another light source of bright light to make sure the monk could attempt to get away by overpowering the dim light.
Sorry if I missed something or didn’t address something so if I did do tell it is much appreciated.
TLDR: Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Distant Spell… The reason for the many spells listed is to highlight that the wizard has plenty of strategies (some greater than others) that would defeat any number of builds, Classes, and tactics. Also in an optimized whiteroom battle between a wizard and another player I see no reason for the wizard to not have Metamagic.