If I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent.
As a DM, I would absolutely grant that Wish, exactly as stated. The person casting the Wish dies forever. That satisfies their intent. Want it to effect someone else? Do you happen to have their True Name? Even if you did have that, and how you got that for some random stranger you've met for a duel, I don't know, I'd still give them a save that they would probably make at level 20.
If I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent.
As a DM, I would absolutely grant that Wish, exactly as stated. The person casting the Wish dies forever. That satisfies their intent. Want it to effect someone else? Do you happen to have their True Name? Even if you did have that, and how you got that for some random stranger you've met for a duel, I don't know, I'd still give them a save that they would probably make at level 20.
Answer: That’s just being cheeky you know what I mean as the intent would obviously not want to kill themselves as their true intent would be exactly what they want in this case it could be for someone to be killed forever (that someone not being you and it being the fighter as per your true intent as anything other than that would not be your true intent and therefore the wish could not be twist just as your own true intent not be twisted). But whatever… they could word it as being a level 20 wizard with high int so the wish would suit there purpose.
The DM is encouraged to take what is said literally. The Wish spell provides a complete list of what it can do, and when you try to do something else, one of the kindest things is for the DM to have your Wish simply kill you. You didn't say who the target was, your intent was not clear, the spell has no way of knowing what you are thinking, only what you say, so it grabs the nearest likely target and does exactly what you told it to do.
Another option is for you to never gain be able to cast Wish. In my opinion, that's cruel. It takes the the apex of Wizard spells and denies them to you. It's only 1 chance in 3, but how many wishes exactly has that Wizard made? All proxies are ultimately still things the caster wished for, so it's perfectly reasonable for the DM to erase everything you ever wished for.
When you want to target someone else you need their True Name, and they may know it themselves. The only ones who know that are the parents, and they might have never shared that with their child, and the gods. Wizards aren't gods, not yet at least. Not at level 20, that's for certain. Have Cleric try praying to a Wizard and see if they get any spells. Unless, of course, you use a Wish to do that... One chance in three again.
You said "Fighter", Ok, that's a game term, so trying to use that is meta-gaming. What does the person with the weapon think of themselves as? If they were trained as a soldier, they might think of themselves as "an ex-soldier". They could have gotten their training some other way. You won't know, unless you cast a Wish to find out... Roll some dice there buddy, one chance in three.
You could be entirely mistaken about which class. The girl over there? With the sword and shield? Cleric. She thinks of herself as "High Clerist" or maybe she's a she's a Monk, she calls herself "Humble Acolyte", and she's only got that sword and shield because she's holding it for the High Clerist who hasn't arrived yet.
Remember, at level 20 everyone is equally intelligent, they all max out at 20 unless they can raise the cap, like with a Wish, maybe? 1 chance in 3. Sure, there are items that raise scores over that, but they have access to the same items, so you can't ever be smarter than anyone else. Useful point, when it comes to overriding score caps, Strength can be boosted to 29 by a Belt of Storm Giant Strength. The most you can get your intelligence up to is 22, multiple readings of different Tomes of Clear Thought don't stack.
You have to use your own intelligence to get a Wish to work the way you want it to. The game can't make changes to the real world. You can't just say; Well, a level 20 Wizard with a high int could word the wish to suit their purpose.
When the time comes to cast a Wish, you must be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. You Wish to be a Gold Dragon, you could become a Wyrmling, or become a piece of artwork, and if you're lucky, you soul moves on to it's intended destination. Your soul could be trapped inside that piece of art, aware, but unable to take any action, for as long as the item existed. Trying to get exactly want you want and expecting to get exactly that and nothing else is "Hubris" a degree of pride that the gods find disturbing. As a DM, I'm the one who decides what the gods think, and most of them are pretty petty. Proper play is for you to get struck down, and poetic justice might just turn you into a Fighter, at level 1, with none of your gear.
True polymorph doesn't let you retain your ability to cast your wizard spells; your statistics are temporarily (or semi-permanently) replaced by the stat block of the creature you're turning into. That throws the clone + power word kill combo out the window. Shapechange lets you keep your wizard spells, but is strictly temporary.
Answer: By how you say that… that means you haven’t seen the semi-thread about of “How to Become a Spellcasting Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon” as you would know that I use the spells True Polymorph, and Magic Jar as the main spells while Simulacrum, Clone, and Power Word Kill. The reason for the clone and power word kill are for the absolute permanency of the form. As for the Simulacrum it is there to make sure everything works so you can transform into the true polymorphed form. Also just saying say if the wizard acquired a powerful creature over time the Wizard could true polymorph the creature into a humanoid then possess it and become that creature then become that creature forever. And if you encounter any problems there is nothing a Wish can’t fix.
This is massively illegal, so I'll try to translate it into the least illegal process possible:
The simulacrum can't be true polymorphed into a dragon with CR > 20, period. So we have to pick a different dragon. The new dragon has to be metallic - the only way to magic jar into the creature is for it to be a humanoid, which requires a metallic dragon (or possibly another spell you didn't include in your post). Assuming you want as high a CR as possible, that leaves only one option: an Ancient Brass Dragon.
True Polymorph turns you into a creature that "can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions", which means we have a grammar explosion. In terms of trying to resolve it, presumably the new shape can't speak at all - that is, "can't speak" adds nothing to the sentence unless it is true even if the new form "is capable of such actions", so presumably, "is capable of such actions" only applies to "any other action", meaning the ban on speaking and casting spells applies even if the new form is capable of speech and casting spells. If you want to rule the other way - that the ban on speech does nothing at all, and neither does the ban on casting spells - here's the new wording:
It can't take any action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions.
Assuming your DM has house-ruled that True Polymorph's ban on speaking and casting spells is redundant and deleted the text, ancient brass dragons don't retain the spellcasting of the wizard in question - they have exactly 4 spells (ordinarily chosen by the DM - there is no valid basis for arguing that the 4 would be 4 that the original wizard had prepared or even knew) of spell level 6 or less, each castable once per day.
Magic Jar won't let you override Clone's text, meaning you can't use Clone to shenanigan yourself into a simulacrum body. There's just no way to do that - Clone works off of souls, and while you're jarred into the simulacrum, its soul is in the jar. No matter how clever you get, Clone will save your life when you die by putting you in a clone of your body, while it will save the simulacrum's life when it dies by putting it into a clone of its body - that applies whether you cast Clone on the simulacrum before Jarring in or after.
If I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent.
As a DM, I would absolutely grant that Wish, exactly as stated. The person casting the Wish dies forever. That satisfies their intent. Want it to effect someone else? Do you happen to have their True Name? Even if you did have that, and how you got that for some random stranger you've met for a duel, I don't know, I'd still give them a save that they would probably make at level 20.
Yet again someone proving to me that wishes are useless in 5E as DMs seem to want to go out of their way to **** you over with the spell.
In general it seems that everone is very much against the players vs the DM situation, just not when it comes to the Wish spell, then it becomes DM vs players for some reason instead.
If I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent.
As a DM, I would absolutely grant that Wish, exactly as stated. The person casting the Wish dies forever. That satisfies their intent. Want it to effect someone else? Do you happen to have their True Name? Even if you did have that, and how you got that for some random stranger you've met for a duel, I don't know, I'd still give them a save that they would probably make at level 20.
Yet again someone proving to me that wishes are useless in 5E as DMs seem to want to go out of their way to **** you over with the spell.
In general it seems that everone is very much against the players vs the DM situation, just not when it comes to the Wish spell, then it becomes DM vs players for some reason instead.
Honestly the only safe option is to mimic the 8th level spell with no costs for 1 action...its a really powerful use of the spell overall as it immediately takes effect and you get a full benefit of it.
You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.
So then, your options as a GM (DM) are, The spell may simply fail, in which case you suffer all the penalties of Stress and nothing happens at all.
You get part of what you want, the DM gets to decide what part, and you suffer all the penalties of Stress.
You suffer some unforeseen consequence if your wish, and that can be anything the DM likes, and you suffer all the penalties of Stress.
Under no circumstances is a DM allowed to simply grant a wish that does anything other than what it says on the list. Not even if they like what the Wish was for. The more abusive the Wish, the lower down on that list of 3 and only three choices that a DM has the result should be. So the DM takes your exact wording, and they try and give it to you.
You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.
So then, your options as a GM (DM) are, The spell may simply fail, in which case you suffer all the penalties of Stress and nothing happens at all.
You get part of what you want, the DM gets to decide what part, and you suffer all the penalties of Stress.
You suffer some unforeseen consequence if your wish, and that can be anything the DM likes, and you suffer all the penalties of Stress.
Under no circumstances is a DM allowed to simply grant a wish that does anything other than what it says on the list. Not even if they like what the Wish was for. The more abusive the Wish, the lower down on that list of 3 and only three choices that a DM has the result should be. So the DM takes your exact wording, and they try and give it to you.
I'm not sure I agree with this interpetation.
It's a contradiction for the DM to have "great latitude in ruling what occurs" then immediately be limited to only three choices of how to rule. The part about how "the spell might simply fail" etc. reads like a list of examples of how the wish could go wrong, but that doesn't mean the DM is forced to have custom wishes go wrong in some way, or only in the ways specified. The text you're focusing on follows the statement "the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong", which makes it pretty clear the ruling the DM is being asked to make is about scope. If the player is just wishing for a really nice pancake then it seems unreasonable to have that go catastrophically wrong.
For example, some curses are considered too strong to be removed by a simple Remove Curse, so wishing for the curse to be lifted using a Wish seems like a perfectly reasonable, RAW usage of the spell as a higher level alternative (or you might quest for someone that can grant wishes etc.). There seems no reason to have consequences to that, as having to burn a 9th level spell only available to certain spell lists at a minimum of 17th level seems like compensation enough.
That said, your DM can (and should) absolutely Wishmaster you to their heart's content if they feel you're using it too much as a crutch, but there is no requirement for them to do so.
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Haha thanks ArtificeMeal yeah Metamagic requires you to have the spellcasting or pact magic feature so you can’t even do such a strategy (since we doing RAW monk can’t use it) so the silence strategy is even worse.
it should however be noted that the 20th level monk capstone sucks, if the monk happens to technically be like a monk 19 / [spell casting class] 1 who happens to never use the class features of the other class, other than to qualify for feats, then i'd consider that to be in the spirit of the "no multiclassing, pure 20th level character" setup
Since if the wizard has these metamagic your monk is useless that means even with tabaxi having a 120ft (180 step of the wind) he still can’t get back within range/melee because he just doesn’t have the movement speed to move out of the 120ft counterspell range then move within melee without using the dash Action but since you used your Action (for silence) your a goner as you just can’t close the distance.
your statement that a tabaxi monk using feline agillity and step of the wind would have a speed of 180 feet is simply not true. Feline Agillity doubles your speed until the end of your next turn, and the dash action works as follows:
Dash
When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash.
Any increase or decrease to your speed changes this additional movement by the same amount. If your speed of 30 feet is reduced to 15 feet, for instance, you can move up to 30 feet this turn if you dash.
the monk starts with a speed of 60 feet, it uses their racial feature to double their speed until the end of their current turn, meaning that their movement speed is now 120. If they now take the dash action, they add an addtional 120 feet of movement to their speed. Nothing here has changed with the addition of distant spell, other than the monk using up an bonus action they did not really need. This changes nothing about what made this build tick, and is also kinda pointless given how subtle spell is all you need?
As for your gripes for the others spells sure you “may” be able to try to get out of some but not all and as for the animate objects how could you not think to just give the order of “move forward then attack the monk” as when they would move forward they would see the monk but whatever.
if the monk is 120 feet away, a distance that is very reasonable for a monk to move in a single turn as i just described (no tabaxi, just 60 feet + 60 feet using your action to dash and your bonus action to disengage thanks to step of the wind), then even if the animated objects dash in the right direction (moving 30 feet + 30 feet or a total of 60 feet), the monk would still be outside of their view (they were 120 feet away. Now they are 60 feet away. They cannot see stuff further than 30 feet away, thus they cannot see the monk). On their next turn the monk can then keep moving away from the coins without having to spend any ki (just using their action to dash and their movement to move away from them or even using their action for whatever and using ther movement), until at one point several rounds later they decide to just move 60 feet or more at a right angle to their previous path. The coins would then continue to go in the direction they saw you, potentially forever, as they fly past you. Unless of course you are keeping these coins under very close supervision for whatever reason and are ready to redirect them towards where the monk is at a moment's notice. Simply put these completely normal coins are too slow, animate objects sucks.
Now i wonder, while the wizard can use instant teleportation to close the distance between them and the monk at any time, but doing so typically requires an action, thus preventing you from casting another leveled spell during that turn. So then what if you build a monk that moves so fast in a turn that a wizard would be unable to target them with most leveled spells, possibly whilst being a kensei so they can shoot the wizard using their longbow? Probably not given that ki-usage is required to reach the highest speeds that a monk can ever reach (bonus action to dash, since you wanna use your action to do other stuff) and opportunity attacks are still a thing a teleporting wizard could do to you, even if it's just cantrip damage. Still neat to think about, might be the one build capable of mass resource waste on part of the wizard trying to keep up. With just the dash action, a centaur monk with the mobile feat could travel 160 feet, further than what a normal wizard could travel using haste + one dash action (120) and exactly what an ancient gold dragon using the dash action could do. With two dash actions (step of the wind + normal action), such an centaur monk could instead move 240 feet, slower than a hasted wizard double dashing (180). Ok yeah maybe that would not work.
Also since life happened yeah that shadow monk dies in that Forcecage with sickening radius… unless you somehow argue that the dim light that you emit counts for the spell but whatever as such dim light could easily be overridden by the wizard just making another light source of bright light to make sure the monk could attempt to get away by overpowering the dim light.
step 0: assume the monk has a really big blanket available, like almost a foot or two longer than the monk and a bit wider also. Does not need to be absurdly large. Also needs to be as opake
assuming the version of forcecage the monk is trapped in is the "cage" form (and the arena is covered in nonmagical bright light):
- the monk must first cover themselves with the blanket such that the wizard cannot see them (crouching down / going prone as nessesary to fit under it). It does not matter that the monk's location is obvious, as you will see.
- the monk can then cast darkness without concern for counterspell, as you cannot see the monk, he is behind full cover. It does not matter that said cover is super thin and that the monk's location is obvious, counterspell is blocked
- if the monk has blindsight via the Fighting Initiate feat, he can use the darkness of his darkness spell to teleport out. Otherwise he can cast the darkness spell in the dim light created by the wizard's crown of stars* / sickening radiance and get out (both spells are higher than 2nd level but don't specifically dispell the darkness and will thus illuminate the area normally).
Now assuming the version of Forcecage used is the Box shape, the m i g t h y f o r c e c u b e if you will:
- the monk can cast darkness in the cage without needing a blanket, as the Forcecage spell blocks all spell being cast from outside this spell targeting stuff inside the spell, you cannot counterspell this darkness, nor can you dispel it. You cannot center the darkness on a point outside the cage, but the area of the darkness spell will spread outside the box anyways.
- now the blindsight that the fighter has does not work if the thing you are trying to perceive is behind total cover, so that's sad. Luckily you can still utilize the dim light created by the wizard's spells, using the "backdrop" of your darkness spell to forcefully create some dim light.
- And if your wizard adversary stands next to the cube with a crown of stars* spell to try and make sure that the area of your darkness spell is always bright light (whilst making sure that he would never fall within the radius of his own sickening radiance spell), well then remember that the monk (and especially a monk awkwardly holding a blanket to increase their silhouette) is an opaque object that will produce an shadow, an shadow that will most likely consist of dim light or darkness and that could possibly fall outside the cube, thus letting the shadow monk aptly use their own shadow to teleport. (this might sound confusing and i may need like a drawing to show what i mean more clearly, but hopefully this should all make sense).
The one and only way that a wizard would be able to prevent the shadow of the monk from falling outside the ForceCube would be if he is above the monk, something that is not really an option when he is trying both to magically illuminate the monk and kill the monk to death with sickening radiance
*you mentioned how a wizard could use spells other than sickening radiance to override the dim light, but since darkness is available to the monk that spell would have to be a spell capable of emitting bright light of 3rd level or higher.
Of course if the wizard really wants to win and does not care about such things as resource management and basic decency, they could absolutely use wish to replicate the daylight spell, auto dispelling any darkness spell the monk may try to cast and their hopes and dreams with it. But at that point it really does not matter, becuase if you are put in a situation where you are forced to use the I WIN spell to illuminate your opponent, you have lost. Not the fight maybe, but you absolutely did loose your dignity. How can a self-respecting wizard continue living knowing they wasted a 9th level spell slot to replicate an kinda mediocre 3rd level spell? You may have won against an fairly basic shadow monk with no special race or feat choices, but at what cost? How will you regain your confidence after having to use the peak of your magical might to best a guy with a 5 sp blanket (or i guess since this blanket is extra big and thicc it might be like 8 sp or even 1 gp, does not matter) who also was only really using class features gained at 6th level or lower.
(to clarify, i am not genuinely saying that i win becuase a wizard would have to use the wish spell in a stupid way to fix the problem of course, i just kinda wrote that for funsies.... We are all here on this forum to have fun, after all?)
so the wizard strat that could absolutely make sure to trap the basic shadow monk with a blanket is to step 1: cast forcecage step 2: use your 9th level spell slot to cast a mediocre 3rd level spell, daylight step 3: cast sickening radiance step 4: presumably grab a cup of coffee or prefered hot beverage as you wait for the monk to cook and as you reconsider the life choices that lead you to this exact moment
If the fighter gets magic items then so does the wizard, at which point it's a wash.
While the fighter could bring magic items that specifically help with fighting a wizard, what magic items is a wizard most likely to bring in return? Most that I can think of would just be things that make the wizard a better wizard, they don't necessarily work to counteract what the fighter might bring.
What optimus said. The wizard doesn't need matchup specific items to succeed. Having access to matchup specific magic items and needing them to be able to compete isn't a strength of the fighter. It's a weakness.
All a wizard needs is a suite of defensive items. I'd throw in a horn of valhalla because fighters problem solve with damage. Maybe a ring of telekinesis to steal those precious items.
Which if you were attuned to both you could have +3 to your DC (making a 19 into a 22) and cast spells without V/S/M components 3 times a day....meaning the silence strategy would not work very well then.
EK fighters cannot use silence, that is exclusively an shadow monk tactic. For fighters magic items would still arguably help them even more than they would help the wizard (especially like a +3 magical musket), even if it would mildly **** over one hyperspecific monk strat
Also in an optimized whiteroom battle between a wizard and another player I see no reason for the wizard to not have Metamagic.
obviously in this hyperspecific optimized whiteroom scenario a wizard will always come equipped, point is that if the only way a wizard survives is with that feat, it says something and there are scenarios where metamagic is not nessesary
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
ArtificeMeal nice reply since it’s so huge imma just plop the paragraphs of text into little digestible points of info so I can answer them easier so the points are as follows:
1. Monk capstone garbage… 19 monk, 1 spellcasting. Answer: The monk capstone amount others yeah it’s horrible but if we were to have any type of multiclassing the wizard would also be able to multiclass and then we’d get into the arguments of what actually constitutes being a monk/fighter or wizard and then next thing we know there is too much variables (maybe). Plus this forum is fighter vs wizard not multiclassed fighter vs wizard and blah blah blah you get the point.
2. Tabaxi monk has feline agility for whole round not just one movement. Still doesn’t matter though. Answer: Oops missed that thanks but still doesn’t help the monk against Metamagic Adept though haha.
3. Monk outrun animate objects. Animate objects suck. Answer: Yes the monk is fast but animate objects are not bad
4. Monk sprinter to run away. Centaur Mobile Monk to go fast. But Wizard can still teleport, etc. Answer: As the Spellcasting Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon if he hastes himself he can catch up but of course their are other strategies the wizard can employ.
5. Blanket vs Forcecage and wizard use wish for daylight. Answer: Love the use of the blanket reminds me of how early I made the EK block sight of material components using an object. As for the wish eh sure if it makes him win I don’t he’d be too mad beyond just cursing his foe for make him lose that spell for the day but after he defeated the foe and a day/week later he’d comeback as literal Demi-god if not an actual one. Speaking of blankets couldn’t you do the same thing but instead turn your character into a hunchback t-Rex arm man wearing a opaque poncho so that you would need to drop prone as your arms would be covered by the poncho (just a funny idea of a large piece of clothing that just overwhelms your body to such a degree no one can see what your doing as it just seems your shaking and muttering crazily but in-fact you are casting a spell while in your own personal blanket mound).
6. For funsies. Answer: Yes this thread is for fun… and deathmatches… but mostly fun haha. Though if I do say so myself many people (myself included) can become quite snarky not that I care but eh.
7. “EK fighters can’t use silence.” Answer: Pretty sure no one mentioned EK fighters in the quote you did but whatever. But characters could try to hold/gag an opponent (no verbal components), bind/hold their arms/disarm them (no somatic/material components), and for even better protection blindfold them (Blindness and no sight spells).
8. obviously in this hyperspecific optimized whiteroom scenario a wizard will always come equipped, point is that if the only way a wizard survives is with that feat, it says something and there are scenarios where metamagic is not nessesary. Answer: Yeah it does say something about the wizards capabilities (in a whiteroom) but since this is an optimized whiteroom scenario where he fights other optimized builds in the whiteroom he needs to be at his best and therefore he usually has to have Metamagic Adept. And yes there are scenarios where Metamagic Adept is not needed a perfect example is the Seppuku Samurai where the only thing the wizard would want is AC, and HP practically. Well what I’m trying to say I think is that the reason the wizard takes Metamagic Adept is to deal with the other possible optimized builds and say if we weren’t in a whiteroom but a world the wizard would at least have a contingency. That contingency is for when if his spellcasting is infringed by others against his will or something and then he’s teleported away. So I guess you could say that a wizards biggest bane and boon is his spellcasting and that’s why especially in optimized fights the wizard would want to make sure beyond a doubt that he could use his spells, as most wizards (besides a few builds) have their spells as their only thing that keeps them afloat. As for something else the wizard could do to bypass silence with an enemy within 5ft:
1. To stop a AoO you can cast minor illusion for a box or whatever to be put over their eyes/head as to make it so that they can’t see/blind them. Then you move away.
2. Have a blanket or item you can use to throw over or whatever object you can use to cover your escape (make it so they can’t see you).
3. Use mislead to go invisible then leave their reach and go out of the silence.
4. Cast demiplane at the monks feet so they fall into the Demiplane? then move out of the silence radius.
5. Push the character 5ft away (could use portent or convergent future for a success).
6. Their certain races/feats I think like the elastic where you can just teleport akin to the Misty step spell (Eladrin: Fey Step).
7. There is some ways but it practically boils down to ether push target away, blind target, or do something else akin to mislead.
Just saying a shove breaks all grapples as the target is pushed 5ft and therefore out of reach of the grappled target.
P.S: I think I addressed everything if I didn’t then again do tell it’s much appreciated.
Creating a nice stack of Pancakes is easily accomplished by the Wish spell, unless your DM really is being overly cruel. Either that's covered under "duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower" which would be Create Food and Water, or it's under the first bullet point
You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.
A DM who said that you only get one pancake because it says one object or that you can create a stack of pancakes but they only appear on the ground is being a jackass. You should be able to use a wish to created your pancakes, with butter and maple syrup, bacon on the side, a glass of your favorite beverage, the plate, the silverware, the table, the chair and the house it goes in with a Wish. If you want to use a Wish for that, I'll cheerfully allow it, and that's not abusing the power of a wish, it's on the list. If you want to use your wish for the Magnificent Mansion spell, you even get servants to help you eat your breakfast.
The description of the effects that require a Wish to remove, like the curse of Lycanthrope or the having been turned into a vampire spawn, specifically say a Wish cures them, so you're fine there, unless, again, your DM is being a pain in the ass.
So then, anything else is entirely open to interpretation by the DM. The rules say that any an all wishes that aren't on the list get Stress, and usually more than that, specific always overrides general, so for things like curses that Remove Curse won't cover, if the description says they need a Wish, a Wish works without Stress. Anything else is up to Elminster if you're in the Forgotten Realms, me in my own campaign setting, or you in whatever setting you are using. The only one who doesn't have a say is the caster, they get whatever the DM thinks is coming to them, the rules just tell you what that would be.
”The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.”
Answer: The above is straight from the Wish spell and it gives three possibilities within the DM’s latitude:
1. This spell might simply fail.
2. The effect you desire might only be partly achieved.
3. You might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.
With each of these options being able to be altered however the DM wants. Though I have few things to say though:
1. D&D is not a DM vs players game.
2. DM’s shouldn’t be looking out to defeat players/screw them over.
3. If it is a lesser wish (I.e anything that isn’t make me a god) it should be relatively safe.
Now there are a few things else I wanna say on the previous subject but now I will say my wish (keep in mind I’m not saying this is perfect but it should work):
”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability”
Now you may be wondering wait a second you don’t say what your wish is to be only that your TRUE intent is to be fulfilled. Now the rest of the wish depends on what your intent is for your wish and since it is your true intent it can’t be messed with by the DM since doing anything to mess it up would mean it would not be your true intent. So let’s say your intent is “X person should die” now that person dies and since if the DM wants/tries to mess with your wish anything he does would mean that it would not be your true intent and therefore can be altered… I hope all of what I said makes sense but trust me it just works though of course I feel the wish could be altered a bit to something better but I don’t know what would that wish be so I’ll just leave it at that.
P.S: Do tell if I missed something or whatever it’s much appreciated.
This is massively illegal, so I'll try to translate it into the least illegal process possible:
Answer: I’m but man you missed I wanna say like 90% of the conversation about how this goes down and since I don’t want to repeat the multitude of posts I did on this and I’ll try to keep it concise but I definitely said it better in my previous posts so if you wanna know how it works just look back in the post count. And since you did point form and such I will answer in parts.
The simulacrum can't be true polymorphed into a dragon with CR > 20, period. So we have to pick a different dragon. The new dragon has to be metallic - the only way to magic jar into the creature is for it to be a humanoid, which requires a metallic dragon (or possibly another spell you didn't include in your post). Assuming you want as high a CR as possible, that leaves only one option: an Ancient Brass Dragon.
Answer: Yeah you missed a lot first off I was and like have never had wanted to instantly go for the ancient gold dragon. I went for the adult gold shadow dragon and if you look at the young red shadow dragon you see it’s CR after becoming a shadow dragon jump up by 3 as a normal young red is CR 10 but as a shadow dragon its CR is 13. Since an adult gold dragon is CR 17 and the max plus to CR for becoming anshadow dragon is +3 that means our adult gold shadow dragon sits nicely at CR 20 ripe for the True Polymorph spell. And yes we use metallic dragons because that have change shape to turn into a humanoid for our purposes.
True Polymorph turns you into a creature that "can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions", which means we have a grammar explosion. In terms of trying to resolve it, presumably the new shape can't speak at all - that is, "can't speak" adds nothing to the sentence unless it is true even if the new form "is capable of such actions", so presumably, "is capable of such actions" only applies to "any other action", meaning the ban on speaking and casting spells applies even if the new form is capable of speech and casting spells. If you want to rule the other way - that the ban on speech does nothing at all, and neither does the ban on casting spells - here's the new wording:
It can't take any action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions.
Answer: Dragons can speak, and they can use spells as shown when they you know… use spells/have spellcasting levels and say even if they weren’t capable of doing so they can still change shape into a human/form to do so if they wanted.
So as for the “The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.” part of True Polymorph spell the new form is capable of speech, casting spells and whatever other action as shown how they can do so. So as a dragon you are under no such limitations as you seem to try to prescribe.
Assuming your DM has house-ruled that True Polymorph's ban on speaking and casting spells is redundant and deleted the text, ancient brass dragons don't retain the spellcasting of the wizard in question - they have exactly 4 spells (ordinarily chosen by the DM - there is no valid basis for arguing that the 4 would be 4 that the original wizard had prepared or even knew) of spell level 6 or less, each castable once per day.
Answer: Um what? where… huh? what are you talking about? The process for this combo one could say is: Cast simulacrum, Cast True Polymorph to turn simulacrum into adult gold shadow dragon waiting for it to finish, simu-gon uses shape change into humanoid, you cast magic jar possess simu-gon, you are now a spellcasting adult gold shadow dragon, now there are a few ways to age yourself, waiting is one way, summoning ghosts is another, casting time ravage on yourself is another then getting rid of the side effects but keep age, casting wish to age yourself to ancient level, etc. And some ways to make this form permanent is to ether cast wish or do the clone, power word kill strategy where in your new form you clone your self the wait for the clone to mature/reach the age you want you hurt yourself then cast powerword kill to kill yourself in your new form and therefore send your soul into the clone of this form where the clone can’t be dispelled as it just is. Also a way to make the clone grow faster if you want you could just cast wish. And if you encounter any problems you can just wish them away. Just saying there is some slight variation on how you can do this strategy.
In addition say if you find a monster of sufficient CR you can copy a part of this process by practically true polymorphing the creature into a humanoid creature then possessing them, then blah blah blah repeat now your that creature permanently. Just saying this is strategy works via RAW so yeah it’s fun.
Magic Jar won't let you override Clone's text, meaning you can't use Clone to shenanigan yourself into a simulacrum body. There's just no way to do that - Clone works off of souls, and while you're jarred into the simulacrum, its soul is in the jar. No matter how clever you get, Clone will save your life when you die by putting you in a clone of your body, while it will save the simulacrum's life when it dies by putting it into a clone of its body - that applies whether you cast Clone on the simulacrum before Jarring in or after.
Answer: What is… this? Just saying simulacrum’s are akin to any other creature as they are affected by any other creature and the simulacrum’s only to have the correct CR target nothing more.
So if I missed anything do tell… I guess? much appreciated.
”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability”
In order for this to work, whatever power it is that grants the wish has to be able to establish the true intent. You need to reword it.
"I wish, for my current true intent to be available to the power that grants wishes and consent that they read my mind, and I consent to the fact that they can take as long as they desire before rendering judgement, and I can take no action against them while waiting. I further wish that once the true intent is determined, judgement made, I cannot change anything about my wish, and it is to be fulfilled to it's utmost capability"
You still suffer Stress of course. Your Wish isn't on the list of things that Wishes can do. Now. What if your true intent is for someone else to die, you sill haven't solved the problem of identifying who you want it to happen to. Pointing will do. They die and can never come back. Having fulfilled your wish, and knowing your fill intent, the power is now free to do whatever it thinks is just to you. Better hope it liked what you Wished for. Powers are often cruel and not a one of them likes to be forced into taking a specific action.
”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability”
In order for this to work, whatever power it is that grants the wish has to be able to establish the true intent. You need to reword it.
"I wish, for my current true intent to be available to the power that grants wishes and consent that they read my mind, and I consent to the fact that they can take as long as they desire before rendering judgement, and I can take no action against them while waiting. I further wish that once the true intent is determined, judgement made, I cannot change anything about my wish, and it is to be fulfilled to it's utmost capability"
You still suffer Stress of course. Your Wish isn't on the list of things that Wishes can do. Now. What if your true intent is for someone else to die, you sill haven't solved the problem of identifying who you want it to happen to. Pointing will do. They die and can never come back. Having fulfilled your wish, and knowing your fill intent, the power is now free to do whatever it thinks is just to you. Better hope it liked what you Wished for. Powers are often cruel and not a one of them likes to be forced into taking a specific action.
one phrase comes to mind, "Are you serious? I mean really, is that how to want to phrase that?"
:-) People often talk about having to use Legalese when making a Wish, because the DM is pretty much told to mess with you. You are pretty much trying to program the brain of a god in English. It's difficult, you have to get every single tiny detail right or it doesn't work, and the best you can usually hope for is an error message. It is also true that gods don't like to be forced into things. Imagine trying to get Zeus Almighty to give you powers that are normally reserved for him, like striking someone down at will. I believe Hecate is the Greek goddess of Magic, and she is not nice at all. In the Forgotten Realms, Eliminster is (or used to be) the god of magic, and a Wish that forces him to grant it is the equivalent of punching him in the nose, and remember, he's the god of the Weave, the source of all magic. Imagine what he can do to you if he feels insulted.
In my own campaign, the Forces of the Cosmos are truly neutral, and entirely uncaring. Does that mean the don't react when someone tries to tear the fabric of reality? No. The harder you try, the worse the reaction, and they aren't interested in your intent, they just shut you down hard. The Forces were there before the gods, and will be there when the gods are all gone, and the aren't something to play with idly or use sloppy wording on.
”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability”
I think the problem with this idea is that there's a difference between what you the player intend and what your character might intend; this leaves your DM with some room to interpret what your character might truly want or meant based on their backstory and personality.
If you want really legalise it then you have to ditch "my" and "current" as these are totally subjective to the character; "current" in particular is problematic, as your DM could force you to roll for whether your character was actually thinking of what you the player wanted or instead got distracted and ends up with cake because that's momentarily what they craved most. 😉
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I feel like there is a great difference between me (the wizard) casting wish and having it read my true intent then carry it out and wishing for my true intent to be achieved.
As for the wording and the words “my” and “current” if I wanted I could change how the wish is done but I could only see the current being changed not the my since my current is there to make sure it is my true intent:
”I wish, that this present wish fulfills my true intent to its utmost capability.”
As for how to interpret true intent it should be exactly what the player wants with failure, misunderstandings, or partial truths because if any were to happen it’d mean that the wish wasn’t following my true intent (say if your DM tries to screw you over you can just say “that isn’t part of my intent” and then the DM can’t mess up your wish).
Now as for the “your mind might wander/your true intent” yes that may happen then require a check… well maybe, since it depends if you wanting cake while your getting get murdered by a monster is your true intent because you wanting cake say is your intent but say your true intent is the monster. As for me if the DM were to call a check in the guise of “ your character needs to keep their mind from wandering” not only would I think that the DM would be intruding onto my player agency, they also would be misinterpreting the spell as show with the difference between intent (cake) and say true intent (the threat/monster) and even if he were (of which he couldn’t, shouldn’t, and wouldn’t).
P.S: I think some of you have a misconception about how wish works as if you look at who gets the spell it’s arcane casters not divine and the fact that your words are to speak to the cosmos and the weave (you are not speaking to the Gods as this is not divine magic) means that your staying your wish to magic itself not the god if magic but since on which era you look at the god of magic might be the weave anyway. But since this is a whiteroom you can’t have a god and therefore you must just speak to the weave having your words manifest at the weaves discretion.
Actually, that's not my Wish. That came from the Wizard known as Deathknight. Way back in post 585 he said
"I thought it was pretty obvious that I would assume that the wizard would be able to better articulate his wish compared to me and even so could if I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent. As for your gripes for the others spells sure you “may” be able to try to get out of."
I was amused. "someone". So I commented that as a DM I would grant that wish, and the caster would die immediately.
So Deathknight the Wizard came back and said I was being "cheeky" because that was obviously not his true intent, he wanted "the Fighter" to die, and a Wizard would be smart enough to make that happen. Still amused. "The Fighter" How does the spell know who that is? "Fighter" is a game term. So I went on about that.
Next, someone complained about how all DMs are out to make the Wish spell useless, and I pointed out that the wording of the spell description pretty much mandates that a DM do so. That was fun.
Deathknight the Wizard comes back again. Now he says ”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability” and goes on about how that couldn't be messed with. I point out that the spell itself doesn't have any way of knowing true intent. The power that grants the wish needs to be able to tell, and in order for them to do it, they would have to be able to read the casters mind, study their memories, and go on from there. I gave an elaborate version of the new Wish that granted the power what it would need, and it was pretty detailed, so someone commented about how nobody would seriously word a wish that way. So they got back some comments about how Wishes need to be very exact in their wording.
Now we are here. I do like your point about how intent could vary from moment to moment. That's perfect. Better not think of anything else while your mind is being studied. That's like the fable about the guy with the magic flying carpet that would only fly if he did not think of a white bear.
I'm not sure if you were talking to me or just in general, but the quote box had my name and no other, so I answered.
”I wish, that this present wish fulfills my true intent to its utmost capability.”
This still seems overcomplicated and tenuous; if you want to narrow the field it would be easier to just say something like "I wish for the physically closest person known to me as <insert name>, to immedtiately and permanently mortally die." This should be more than unambiguous enough to be unable to be twisted, as you're drawing on your own knowledge of the target (so it doesn't matter if you don't know their real name), limiting it by physical proximity to prevent anyone else that you might know with the same name to die, and eliminating the possibility that they only die temporarily (e.g- heart briefly stops then restarts when they hit the ground) or die of old age much later. If you don't know the enemy's name you can identify them in some other way, e.g- wearing a red hat, wielding a hammer etc. it just has to not be too vague. I also added the word "mortally" to avoid wishmastering and merely having the target to spend the rest of their life dying things different colours.
If your goal is to eliminate the possibility of the spell failing, or only partially working, then that sadly is not up to you; as any condition you try to place upon the wish (the "utmost of its ability" part) can simply be the part that doesn't work, and that's going to be down to your DM. They may decide that killing a person outright (and forever) is too much, as the closest equivalent spell would be Power Word Kill (to kill outright) which is a 9th level spell limited by HP remaining, and/or Disintegrate but neither of these can kill a target outright without them being reduced in HP first.
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As a DM, I would absolutely grant that Wish, exactly as stated. The person casting the Wish dies forever. That satisfies their intent. Want it to effect someone else? Do you happen to have their True Name? Even if you did have that, and how you got that for some random stranger you've met for a duel, I don't know, I'd still give them a save that they would probably make at level 20.
<Insert clever signature here>
Answer: That’s just being cheeky you know what I mean as the intent would obviously not want to kill themselves as their true intent would be exactly what they want in this case it could be for someone to be killed forever (that someone not being you and it being the fighter as per your true intent as anything other than that would not be your true intent and therefore the wish could not be twist just as your own true intent not be twisted). But whatever… they could word it as being a level 20 wizard with high int so the wish would suit there purpose.
The DM is encouraged to take what is said literally. The Wish spell provides a complete list of what it can do, and when you try to do something else, one of the kindest things is for the DM to have your Wish simply kill you. You didn't say who the target was, your intent was not clear, the spell has no way of knowing what you are thinking, only what you say, so it grabs the nearest likely target and does exactly what you told it to do.
Another option is for you to never gain be able to cast Wish. In my opinion, that's cruel. It takes the the apex of Wizard spells and denies them to you. It's only 1 chance in 3, but how many wishes exactly has that Wizard made? All proxies are ultimately still things the caster wished for, so it's perfectly reasonable for the DM to erase everything you ever wished for.
When you want to target someone else you need their True Name, and they may know it themselves. The only ones who know that are the parents, and they might have never shared that with their child, and the gods. Wizards aren't gods, not yet at least. Not at level 20, that's for certain. Have Cleric try praying to a Wizard and see if they get any spells. Unless, of course, you use a Wish to do that... One chance in three again.
You said "Fighter", Ok, that's a game term, so trying to use that is meta-gaming. What does the person with the weapon think of themselves as? If they were trained as a soldier, they might think of themselves as "an ex-soldier". They could have gotten their training some other way. You won't know, unless you cast a Wish to find out... Roll some dice there buddy, one chance in three.
You could be entirely mistaken about which class. The girl over there? With the sword and shield? Cleric. She thinks of herself as "High Clerist" or maybe she's a she's a Monk, she calls herself "Humble Acolyte", and she's only got that sword and shield because she's holding it for the High Clerist who hasn't arrived yet.
Remember, at level 20 everyone is equally intelligent, they all max out at 20 unless they can raise the cap, like with a Wish, maybe? 1 chance in 3. Sure, there are items that raise scores over that, but they have access to the same items, so you can't ever be smarter than anyone else. Useful point, when it comes to overriding score caps, Strength can be boosted to 29 by a Belt of Storm Giant Strength. The most you can get your intelligence up to is 22, multiple readings of different Tomes of Clear Thought don't stack.
You have to use your own intelligence to get a Wish to work the way you want it to. The game can't make changes to the real world. You can't just say; Well, a level 20 Wizard with a high int could word the wish to suit their purpose.
When the time comes to cast a Wish, you must be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. You Wish to be a Gold Dragon, you could become a Wyrmling, or become a piece of artwork, and if you're lucky, you soul moves on to it's intended destination. Your soul could be trapped inside that piece of art, aware, but unable to take any action, for as long as the item existed. Trying to get exactly want you want and expecting to get exactly that and nothing else is "Hubris" a degree of pride that the gods find disturbing. As a DM, I'm the one who decides what the gods think, and most of them are pretty petty. Proper play is for you to get struck down, and poetic justice might just turn you into a Fighter, at level 1, with none of your gear.
<Insert clever signature here>
This is massively illegal, so I'll try to translate it into the least illegal process possible:
Yet again someone proving to me that wishes are useless in 5E as DMs seem to want to go out of their way to **** you over with the spell.
In general it seems that everone is very much against the players vs the DM situation, just not when it comes to the Wish spell, then it becomes DM vs players for some reason instead.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Honestly the only safe option is to mimic the 8th level spell with no costs for 1 action...its a really powerful use of the spell overall as it immediately takes effect and you get a full benefit of it.
Ever read the text of the Wish spell?
Under no circumstances is a DM allowed to simply grant a wish that does anything other than what it says on the list. Not even if they like what the Wish was for. The more abusive the Wish, the lower down on that list of 3 and only three choices that a DM has the result should be. So the DM takes your exact wording, and they try and give it to you.
<Insert clever signature here>
I'm not sure I agree with this interpetation.
It's a contradiction for the DM to have "great latitude in ruling what occurs" then immediately be limited to only three choices of how to rule. The part about how "the spell might simply fail" etc. reads like a list of examples of how the wish could go wrong, but that doesn't mean the DM is forced to have custom wishes go wrong in some way, or only in the ways specified. The text you're focusing on follows the statement "the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong", which makes it pretty clear the ruling the DM is being asked to make is about scope. If the player is just wishing for a really nice pancake then it seems unreasonable to have that go catastrophically wrong.
For example, some curses are considered too strong to be removed by a simple Remove Curse, so wishing for the curse to be lifted using a Wish seems like a perfectly reasonable, RAW usage of the spell as a higher level alternative (or you might quest for someone that can grant wishes etc.). There seems no reason to have consequences to that, as having to burn a 9th level spell only available to certain spell lists at a minimum of 17th level seems like compensation enough.
That said, your DM can (and should) absolutely Wishmaster you to their heart's content if they feel you're using it too much as a crutch, but there is no requirement for them to do so.
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it should however be noted that the 20th level monk capstone sucks, if the monk happens to technically be like a monk 19 / [spell casting class] 1 who happens to never use the class features of the other class, other than to qualify for feats, then i'd consider that to be in the spirit of the "no multiclassing, pure 20th level character" setup
your statement that a tabaxi monk using feline agillity and step of the wind would have a speed of 180 feet is simply not true. Feline Agillity doubles your speed until the end of your next turn, and the dash action works as follows:
the monk starts with a speed of 60 feet, it uses their racial feature to double their speed until the end of their current turn, meaning that their movement speed is now 120. If they now take the dash action, they add an addtional 120 feet of movement to their speed. Nothing here has changed with the addition of distant spell, other than the monk using up an bonus action they did not really need. This changes nothing about what made this build tick, and is also kinda pointless given how subtle spell is all you need?
if the monk is 120 feet away, a distance that is very reasonable for a monk to move in a single turn as i just described (no tabaxi, just 60 feet + 60 feet using your action to dash and your bonus action to disengage thanks to step of the wind), then even if the animated objects dash in the right direction (moving 30 feet + 30 feet or a total of 60 feet), the monk would still be outside of their view (they were 120 feet away. Now they are 60 feet away. They cannot see stuff further than 30 feet away, thus they cannot see the monk). On their next turn the monk can then keep moving away from the coins without having to spend any ki (just using their action to dash and their movement to move away from them or even using their action for whatever and using ther movement), until at one point several rounds later they decide to just move 60 feet or more at a right angle to their previous path. The coins would then continue to go in the direction they saw you, potentially forever, as they fly past you. Unless of course you are keeping these coins under very close supervision for whatever reason and are ready to redirect them towards where the monk is at a moment's notice. Simply put these completely normal coins are too slow, animate objects sucks.
Now i wonder, while the wizard can use instant teleportation to close the distance between them and the monk at any time, but doing so typically requires an action, thus preventing you from casting another leveled spell during that turn. So then what if you build a monk that moves so fast in a turn that a wizard would be unable to target them with most leveled spells, possibly whilst being a kensei so they can shoot the wizard using their longbow? Probably not given that ki-usage is required to reach the highest speeds that a monk can ever reach (bonus action to dash, since you wanna use your action to do other stuff) and opportunity attacks are still a thing a teleporting wizard could do to you, even if it's just cantrip damage. Still neat to think about, might be the one build capable of mass resource waste on part of the wizard trying to keep up. With just the dash action, a centaur monk with the mobile feat could travel 160 feet, further than what a normal wizard could travel using haste + one dash action (120) and exactly what an ancient gold dragon using the dash action could do. With two dash actions (step of the wind + normal action), such an centaur monk could instead move 240 feet, slower than a hasted wizard double dashing (180). Ok yeah maybe that would not work.
stupid problems require stupid solutions, observe:
step 0: assume the monk has a really big blanket available, like almost a foot or two longer than the monk and a bit wider also. Does not need to be absurdly large. Also needs to be as opake
assuming the version of forcecage the monk is trapped in is the "cage" form (and the arena is covered in nonmagical bright light):
- the monk must first cover themselves with the blanket such that the wizard cannot see them (crouching down / going prone as nessesary to fit under it). It does not matter that the monk's location is obvious, as you will see.
- the monk can then cast darkness without concern for counterspell, as you cannot see the monk, he is behind full cover. It does not matter that said cover is super thin and that the monk's location is obvious, counterspell is blocked
- if the monk has blindsight via the Fighting Initiate feat, he can use the darkness of his darkness spell to teleport out. Otherwise he can cast the darkness spell in the dim light created by the wizard's crown of stars* / sickening radiance and get out (both spells are higher than 2nd level but don't specifically dispell the darkness and will thus illuminate the area normally).
Now assuming the version of Forcecage used is the Box shape, the m i g t h y f o r c e c u b e if you will:
- the monk can cast darkness in the cage without needing a blanket, as the Forcecage spell blocks all spell being cast from outside this spell targeting stuff inside the spell, you cannot counterspell this darkness, nor can you dispel it. You cannot center the darkness on a point outside the cage, but the area of the darkness spell will spread outside the box anyways.
- now the blindsight that the fighter has does not work if the thing you are trying to perceive is behind total cover, so that's sad. Luckily you can still utilize the dim light created by the wizard's spells, using the "backdrop" of your darkness spell to forcefully create some dim light.
- And if your wizard adversary stands next to the cube with a crown of stars* spell to try and make sure that the area of your darkness spell is always bright light (whilst making sure that he would never fall within the radius of his own sickening radiance spell), well then remember that the monk (and especially a monk awkwardly holding a blanket to increase their silhouette) is an opaque object that will produce an shadow, an shadow that will most likely consist of dim light or darkness and that could possibly fall outside the cube, thus letting the shadow monk aptly use their own shadow to teleport. (this might sound confusing and i may need like a drawing to show what i mean more clearly, but hopefully this should all make sense).
The one and only way that a wizard would be able to prevent the shadow of the monk from falling outside the ForceCube would be if he is above the monk, something that is not really an option when he is trying both to magically illuminate the monk and kill the monk to death with sickening radiance
*you mentioned how a wizard could use spells other than sickening radiance to override the dim light, but since darkness is available to the monk that spell would have to be a spell capable of emitting bright light of 3rd level or higher.
Of course if the wizard really wants to win and does not care about such things as resource management and basic decency, they could absolutely use wish to replicate the daylight spell, auto dispelling any darkness spell the monk may try to cast and their hopes and dreams with it. But at that point it really does not matter, becuase if you are put in a situation where you are forced to use the I WIN spell to illuminate your opponent, you have lost. Not the fight maybe, but you absolutely did loose your dignity. How can a self-respecting wizard continue living knowing they wasted a 9th level spell slot to replicate an kinda mediocre 3rd level spell? You may have won against an fairly basic shadow monk with no special race or feat choices, but at what cost? How will you regain your confidence after having to use the peak of your magical might to best a guy with a 5 sp blanket (or i guess since this blanket is extra big and thicc it might be like 8 sp or even 1 gp, does not matter) who also was only really using class features gained at 6th level or lower.
(to clarify, i am not genuinely saying that i win becuase a wizard would have to use the wish spell in a stupid way to fix the problem of course, i just kinda wrote that for funsies.... We are all here on this forum to have fun, after all?)
so the wizard strat that could absolutely make sure to trap the basic shadow monk with a blanket is to
step 1: cast forcecage
step 2: use your 9th level spell slot to cast a mediocre 3rd level spell, daylight
step 3: cast sickening radiance
step 4: presumably grab a cup of coffee or prefered hot beverage as you wait for the monk to cook and as you reconsider the life choices that lead you to this exact moment
EK fighters cannot use silence, that is exclusively an shadow monk tactic. For fighters magic items would still arguably help them even more than they would help the wizard (especially like a +3 magical musket), even if it would mildly **** over one hyperspecific monk strat
obviously in this hyperspecific optimized whiteroom scenario a wizard will always come equipped, point is that if the only way a wizard survives is with that feat, it says something and there are scenarios where metamagic is not nessesary
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
ArtificeMeal nice reply since it’s so huge imma just plop the paragraphs of text into little digestible points of info so I can answer them easier so the points are as follows:
1. Monk capstone garbage… 19 monk, 1 spellcasting.
Answer: The monk capstone amount others yeah it’s horrible but if we were to have any type of multiclassing the wizard would also be able to multiclass and then we’d get into the arguments of what actually constitutes being a monk/fighter or wizard and then next thing we know there is too much variables (maybe). Plus this forum is fighter vs wizard not multiclassed fighter vs wizard and blah blah blah you get the point.
2. Tabaxi monk has feline agility for whole round not just one movement. Still doesn’t matter though.
Answer: Oops missed that thanks but still doesn’t help the monk against Metamagic Adept though haha.
3. Monk outrun animate objects. Animate objects suck.
Answer: Yes the monk is fast but animate objects are not bad
4. Monk sprinter to run away. Centaur Mobile Monk to go fast. But Wizard can still teleport, etc.
Answer: As the Spellcasting Ancient Gold Shadow Dragon if he hastes himself he can catch up but of course their are other strategies the wizard can employ.
5. Blanket vs Forcecage and wizard use wish for daylight.
Answer: Love the use of the blanket reminds me of how early I made the EK block sight of material components using an object. As for the wish eh sure if it makes him win I don’t he’d be too mad beyond just cursing his foe for make him lose that spell for the day but after he defeated the foe and a day/week later he’d comeback as literal Demi-god if not an actual one. Speaking of blankets couldn’t you do the same thing but instead turn your character into a hunchback t-Rex arm man wearing a opaque poncho so that you would need to drop prone as your arms would be covered by the poncho (just a funny idea of a large piece of clothing that just overwhelms your body to such a degree no one can see what your doing as it just seems your shaking and muttering crazily but in-fact you are casting a spell while in your own personal blanket mound).
6. For funsies.
Answer: Yes this thread is for fun… and deathmatches… but mostly fun haha. Though if I do say so myself many people (myself included) can become quite snarky not that I care but eh.
7. “EK fighters can’t use silence.”
Answer: Pretty sure no one mentioned EK fighters in the quote you did but whatever. But characters could try to hold/gag an opponent (no verbal components), bind/hold their arms/disarm them (no somatic/material components), and for even better protection blindfold them (Blindness and no sight spells).
8. obviously in this hyperspecific optimized whiteroom scenario a wizard will always come equipped, point is that if the only way a wizard survives is with that feat, it says something and there are scenarios where metamagic is not nessesary.
Answer: Yeah it does say something about the wizards capabilities (in a whiteroom) but since this is an optimized whiteroom scenario where he fights other optimized builds in the whiteroom he needs to be at his best and therefore he usually has to have Metamagic Adept. And yes there are scenarios where Metamagic Adept is not needed a perfect example is the Seppuku Samurai where the only thing the wizard would want is AC, and HP practically. Well what I’m trying to say I think is that the reason the wizard takes Metamagic Adept is to deal with the other possible optimized builds and say if we weren’t in a whiteroom but a world the wizard would at least have a contingency. That contingency is for when if his spellcasting is infringed by others against his will or something and then he’s teleported away. So I guess you could say that a wizards biggest bane and boon is his spellcasting and that’s why especially in optimized fights the wizard would want to make sure beyond a doubt that he could use his spells, as most wizards (besides a few builds) have their spells as their only thing that keeps them afloat. As for something else the wizard could do to bypass silence with an enemy within 5ft:
1. To stop a AoO you can cast minor illusion for a box or whatever to be put over their eyes/head as to make it so that they can’t see/blind them. Then you move away.
2. Have a blanket or item you can use to throw over or whatever object you can use to cover your escape (make it so they can’t see you).
3. Use mislead to go invisible then leave their reach and go out of the silence.
4. Cast demiplane at the monks feet so they fall into the Demiplane? then move out of the silence radius.
5. Push the character 5ft away (could use portent or convergent future for a success).
6. Their certain races/feats I think like the elastic where you can just teleport akin to the Misty step spell (Eladrin: Fey Step).
7. There is some ways but it practically boils down to ether push target away, blind target, or do something else akin to mislead.
Just saying a shove breaks all grapples as the target is pushed 5ft and therefore out of reach of the grappled target.
P.S: I think I addressed everything if I didn’t then again do tell it’s much appreciated.
Creating a nice stack of Pancakes is easily accomplished by the Wish spell, unless your DM really is being overly cruel. Either that's covered under "duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower" which would be Create Food and Water, or it's under the first bullet point
A DM who said that you only get one pancake because it says one object or that you can create a stack of pancakes but they only appear on the ground is being a jackass. You should be able to use a wish to created your pancakes, with butter and maple syrup, bacon on the side, a glass of your favorite beverage, the plate, the silverware, the table, the chair and the house it goes in with a Wish. If you want to use a Wish for that, I'll cheerfully allow it, and that's not abusing the power of a wish, it's on the list. If you want to use your wish for the Magnificent Mansion spell, you even get servants to help you eat your breakfast.
The description of the effects that require a Wish to remove, like the curse of Lycanthrope or the having been turned into a vampire spawn, specifically say a Wish cures them, so you're fine there, unless, again, your DM is being a pain in the ass.
So then, anything else is entirely open to interpretation by the DM. The rules say that any an all wishes that aren't on the list get Stress, and usually more than that, specific always overrides general, so for things like curses that Remove Curse won't cover, if the description says they need a Wish, a Wish works without Stress. Anything else is up to Elminster if you're in the Forgotten Realms, me in my own campaign setting, or you in whatever setting you are using. The only one who doesn't have a say is the caster, they get whatever the DM thinks is coming to them, the rules just tell you what that would be.
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”The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.”
Answer: The above is straight from the Wish spell and it gives three possibilities within the DM’s latitude:
1. This spell might simply fail.
2. The effect you desire might only be partly achieved.
3. You might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.
With each of these options being able to be altered however the DM wants. Though I have few things to say though:
1. D&D is not a DM vs players game.
2. DM’s shouldn’t be looking out to defeat players/screw them over.
3. If it is a lesser wish (I.e anything that isn’t make me a god) it should be relatively safe.
Now there are a few things else I wanna say on the previous subject but now I will say my wish (keep in mind I’m not saying this is perfect but it should work):
”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability”
Now you may be wondering wait a second you don’t say what your wish is to be only that your TRUE intent is to be fulfilled.
Now the rest of the wish depends on what your intent is for your wish and since it is your true intent it can’t be messed with by the DM since doing anything to mess it up would mean it would not be your true intent. So let’s say your intent is “X person should die” now that person dies and since if the DM wants/tries to mess with your wish anything he does would mean that it would not be your true intent and therefore can be altered… I hope all of what I said makes sense but trust me it just works though of course I feel the wish could be altered a bit to something better but I don’t know what would that wish be so I’ll just leave it at that.
P.S: Do tell if I missed something or whatever it’s much appreciated.
Answer: I’m but man you missed I wanna say like 90% of the conversation about how this goes down and since I don’t want to repeat the multitude of posts I did on this and I’ll try to keep it concise but I definitely said it better in my previous posts so if you wanna know how it works just look back in the post count. And since you did point form and such I will answer in parts.
Answer: Yeah you missed a lot first off I was and like have never had wanted to instantly go for the ancient gold dragon. I went for the adult gold shadow dragon and if you look at the young red shadow dragon you see it’s CR after becoming a shadow dragon jump up by 3 as a normal young red is CR 10 but as a shadow dragon its CR is 13. Since an adult gold dragon is CR 17 and the max plus to CR for becoming anshadow dragon is +3 that means our adult gold shadow dragon sits nicely at CR 20 ripe for the True Polymorph spell. And yes we use metallic dragons because that have change shape to turn into a humanoid for our purposes.
Answer: Dragons can speak, and they can use spells as shown when they you know… use spells/have spellcasting levels and say even if they weren’t capable of doing so they can still change shape into a human/form to do so if they wanted.
So as for the “The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions.” part of True Polymorph spell the new form is capable of speech, casting spells and whatever other action as shown how they can do so. So as a dragon you are under no such limitations as you seem to try to prescribe.
Answer: Um what? where… huh? what are you talking about? The process for this combo one could say is: Cast simulacrum, Cast True Polymorph to turn simulacrum into adult gold shadow dragon waiting for it to finish, simu-gon uses shape change into humanoid, you cast magic jar possess simu-gon, you are now a spellcasting adult gold shadow dragon, now there are a few ways to age yourself, waiting is one way, summoning ghosts is another, casting time ravage on yourself is another then getting rid of the side effects but keep age, casting wish to age yourself to ancient level, etc. And some ways to make this form permanent is to ether cast wish or do the clone, power word kill strategy where in your new form you clone your self the wait for the clone to mature/reach the age you want you hurt yourself then cast powerword kill to kill yourself in your new form and therefore send your soul into the clone of this form where the clone can’t be dispelled as it just is. Also a way to make the clone grow faster if you want you could just cast wish. And if you encounter any problems you can just wish them away.
Just saying there is some slight variation on how you can do this strategy.
In addition say if you find a monster of sufficient CR you can copy a part of this process by practically true polymorphing the creature into a humanoid creature then possessing them, then blah blah blah repeat now your that creature permanently. Just saying this is strategy works via RAW so yeah it’s fun.
Answer: What is… this? Just saying simulacrum’s are akin to any other creature as they are affected by any other creature and the simulacrum’s only to have the correct CR target nothing more.
So if I missed anything do tell… I guess? much appreciated.
”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability”
In order for this to work, whatever power it is that grants the wish has to be able to establish the true intent. You need to reword it.
"I wish, for my current true intent to be available to the power that grants wishes and consent that they read my mind, and I consent to the fact that they can take as long as they desire before rendering judgement, and I can take no action against them while waiting. I further wish that once the true intent is determined, judgement made, I cannot change anything about my wish, and it is to be fulfilled to it's utmost capability"
You still suffer Stress of course. Your Wish isn't on the list of things that Wishes can do. Now. What if your true intent is for someone else to die, you sill haven't solved the problem of identifying who you want it to happen to. Pointing will do. They die and can never come back. Having fulfilled your wish, and knowing your fill intent, the power is now free to do whatever it thinks is just to you. Better hope it liked what you Wished for. Powers are often cruel and not a one of them likes to be forced into taking a specific action.
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one phrase comes to mind, "Are you serious? I mean really, is that how to want to phrase that?"
:-) People often talk about having to use Legalese when making a Wish, because the DM is pretty much told to mess with you. You are pretty much trying to program the brain of a god in English. It's difficult, you have to get every single tiny detail right or it doesn't work, and the best you can usually hope for is an error message. It is also true that gods don't like to be forced into things. Imagine trying to get Zeus Almighty to give you powers that are normally reserved for him, like striking someone down at will. I believe Hecate is the Greek goddess of Magic, and she is not nice at all. In the Forgotten Realms, Eliminster is (or used to be) the god of magic, and a Wish that forces him to grant it is the equivalent of punching him in the nose, and remember, he's the god of the Weave, the source of all magic. Imagine what he can do to you if he feels insulted.
In my own campaign, the Forces of the Cosmos are truly neutral, and entirely uncaring. Does that mean the don't react when someone tries to tear the fabric of reality? No. The harder you try, the worse the reaction, and they aren't interested in your intent, they just shut you down hard. The Forces were there before the gods, and will be there when the gods are all gone, and the aren't something to play with idly or use sloppy wording on.
<Insert clever signature here>
I think the problem with this idea is that there's a difference between what you the player intend and what your character might intend; this leaves your DM with some room to interpret what your character might truly want or meant based on their backstory and personality.
If you want really legalise it then you have to ditch "my" and "current" as these are totally subjective to the character; "current" in particular is problematic, as your DM could force you to roll for whether your character was actually thinking of what you the player wanted or instead got distracted and ends up with cake because that's momentarily what they craved most. 😉
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I feel like there is a great difference between me (the wizard) casting wish and having it read my true intent then carry it out and wishing for my true intent to be achieved.
As for the wording and the words “my” and “current” if I wanted I could change how the wish is done but I could only see the current being changed not the my since my current is there to make sure it is my true intent:
”I wish, that this present wish fulfills my true intent to its utmost capability.”
As for how to interpret true intent it should be exactly what the player wants with failure, misunderstandings, or partial truths because if any were to happen it’d mean that the wish wasn’t following my true intent (say if your DM tries to screw you over you can just say “that isn’t part of my intent” and then the DM can’t mess up your wish).
Now as for the “your mind might wander/your true intent” yes that may happen then require a check… well maybe, since it depends if you wanting cake while your getting get murdered by a monster is your true intent because you wanting cake say is your intent but say your true intent is the monster. As for me if the DM were to call a check in the guise of “ your character needs to keep their mind from wandering” not only would I think that the DM would be intruding onto my player agency, they also would be misinterpreting the spell as show with the difference between intent (cake) and say true intent (the threat/monster) and even if he were (of which he couldn’t, shouldn’t, and wouldn’t).
P.S: I think some of you have a misconception about how wish works as if you look at who gets the spell it’s arcane casters not divine and the fact that your words are to speak to the cosmos and the weave (you are not speaking to the Gods as this is not divine magic) means that your staying your wish to magic itself not the god if magic but since on which era you look at the god of magic might be the weave anyway. But since this is a whiteroom you can’t have a god and therefore you must just speak to the weave having your words manifest at the weaves discretion.
Actually, that's not my Wish. That came from the Wizard known as Deathknight. Way back in post 585 he said
"I thought it was pretty obvious that I would assume that the wizard would be able to better articulate his wish compared to me and even so could if I were the one wishing just say for my wish to be “I wish, that my wish is completed to my true intent” and as there is no possible way to bend my true intent for the spell as it would play out for exactly how I intend, per say if I said this and my intent is to have someone die forever the wish would then carry out my intent. As for your gripes for the others spells sure you “may” be able to try to get out of."
I was amused. "someone". So I commented that as a DM I would grant that wish, and the caster would die immediately.
So Deathknight the Wizard came back and said I was being "cheeky" because that was obviously not his true intent, he wanted "the Fighter" to die, and a Wizard would be smart enough to make that happen. Still amused. "The Fighter" How does the spell know who that is? "Fighter" is a game term. So I went on about that.
Next, someone complained about how all DMs are out to make the Wish spell useless, and I pointed out that the wording of the spell description pretty much mandates that a DM do so. That was fun.
Deathknight the Wizard comes back again. Now he says ”I wish, for my current true intent to be fulfilled to it’s utmost capability” and goes on about how that couldn't be messed with. I point out that the spell itself doesn't have any way of knowing true intent. The power that grants the wish needs to be able to tell, and in order for them to do it, they would have to be able to read the casters mind, study their memories, and go on from there. I gave an elaborate version of the new Wish that granted the power what it would need, and it was pretty detailed, so someone commented about how nobody would seriously word a wish that way. So they got back some comments about how Wishes need to be very exact in their wording.
Now we are here. I do like your point about how intent could vary from moment to moment. That's perfect. Better not think of anything else while your mind is being studied. That's like the fable about the guy with the magic flying carpet that would only fly if he did not think of a white bear.
I'm not sure if you were talking to me or just in general, but the quote box had my name and no other, so I answered.
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This still seems overcomplicated and tenuous; if you want to narrow the field it would be easier to just say something like "I wish for the physically closest person known to me as <insert name>, to immedtiately and permanently mortally die." This should be more than unambiguous enough to be unable to be twisted, as you're drawing on your own knowledge of the target (so it doesn't matter if you don't know their real name), limiting it by physical proximity to prevent anyone else that you might know with the same name to die, and eliminating the possibility that they only die temporarily (e.g- heart briefly stops then restarts when they hit the ground) or die of old age much later. If you don't know the enemy's name you can identify them in some other way, e.g- wearing a red hat, wielding a hammer etc. it just has to not be too vague. I also added the word "mortally" to avoid wishmastering and merely having the target to spend the rest of their life dying things different colours.
If your goal is to eliminate the possibility of the spell failing, or only partially working, then that sadly is not up to you; as any condition you try to place upon the wish (the "utmost of its ability" part) can simply be the part that doesn't work, and that's going to be down to your DM. They may decide that killing a person outright (and forever) is too much, as the closest equivalent spell would be Power Word Kill (to kill outright) which is a 9th level spell limited by HP remaining, and/or Disintegrate but neither of these can kill a target outright without them being reduced in HP first.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.