Yeah if the Wizard is good at being a Wizard the Wizard wins because of invulnerability or many of his powerful Wizard spells from the Wizard spell list.
Also If the Wizard gets a single turn he wins so yeah.
The people who were backing up fighter were saying "why should the wizard get to pick those spells". Spells are to the wizard what Weapons and Feats are to the Fighter.
The wizard should be able to pick any spell that they'd have access to (so only dunamancy for the dunamancers), and have no restrictions on what spells from their list they can choose.
If you don't let the wizard choose their spells, then the fighter doesn't get to choose their weapons.
I think the census is that Wizards win if they get to go, and it will probably remain this way until Wizards of the Coast makes a fighter subclass that can somehow force the wizard to lose.
(One thing I don't think that people have pointed out is that eldritch knight can learn counterspell, but it can't do it many times, and the wizard could just counterspell them, and eldritch knights tend to do less damage than most other fighter subclasses.)
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Yeah if the Wizard is good at being a Wizard the Wizard wins because of invulnerability or many of his powerful Wizard spells from the Wizard spell list.
Also If the Wizard gets a single turn he wins so yeah.
Sorry, what? I don't really understand that last post, it's a bit confusing. Might need some grammar fixes.
I wanted to say Wizard a lot giving emphasis that wizards are a powerhouse of magic and the “Additionally, Wizard” was a attempt at a joke given the fact that I purposely put Wizard into the paragraph multiple times.
You know, I find these discussions to be a bit off, because they tend to come down to one side ignoring what another side can do. I see lots of people listing off spell after spell. But I see a distinct lack of people willing to discuss how Maneuvers, or things like Arcane Shots, or Eldritch Knight abilities, etc can work to the Fighter's advantage. The wizard gets to use Shield, but a Fighter can't use a tripping attack, then get advantage to attacks while the wizard is down?
For instance, lets say that we have an Arcane Archer. They go first, get off four attacks. Any one of the arrows hit, they get to use Banishing Arrow. That's a charisma save, which is a bad save for wizard. This banishes the wizard and causes them to lose their turn, effectively granting the Fighter more attacks they can launch, definitely dealing more HP than the wizard has health.
Grappling and restraining. There's some debate how it interferes with somatic and verbal components, but in Mearl's own words, "depends on situation and nature of restraint." Which means there are ways to use grappling on mages to prevent them from casting spells, though the details are undefined. I would imagine that a Fighter with the Grapple feat would know enough to be able to restrain a wizard.
That's just three things off the top of my head, and that no one is open to discussing such things is rather sad, in my opinion. There's a lot of cool options for Fighters that are being ignored here - I guess the stereotype of the Fighter acting like the simple Champion is too strong?
@Mephista, I think the reason why The wizard would not care about the fighter is quite simple. There is not much a fighter could do to a 20th Level Wizard.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell. Heck a fighter is more likely to take off their armor than the wizard not having their contingency spell on for 10 days.
The contingency would be if anyone is trying to attack the mage, Resilient Sphere is cast ( Up to DM how it can be worded. A melee weapon and ranged weapon reaching within 5 feet of the wizard or something like that). So even if the Wizard loses initiative, about the only thing I can think of they can do is push the sphere around. Resilient Sphere is a concentration spell, when ever the wizard has a 1st turn, the would cast invulnerability which would stop the sphere, but they would now be invulnerable for the next 100 turns.
I would give the fighter buckley's chance of surviving what ever the wizard wants to do with the left over 21 spell slots, Especially if you are going to count, evocation wizard with over channel or divination wizard with portent or just using lots of mind spikes and getting spell slots back, Spell mastery, signature spell or even spam something like toll the head for 100 turns.
You have to remember if a Fighter has magic items, then the wizard needs equal value items unless there is a handy cap. And if the fighter can prep like putting on their armor first, then a wizard should have things like contingency or simulacrum.
You know, I find these discussions to be a bit off, because they tend to come down to one side ignoring what another side can do. I see lots of people listing off spell after spell. But I see a distinct lack of people willing to discuss how Maneuvers, or things like Arcane Shots, or Eldritch Knight abilities, etc can work to the Fighter's advantage. The wizard gets to use Shield, but a Fighter can't use a tripping attack, then get advantage to attacks while the wizard is down?
For instance, lets say that we have an Arcane Archer. They go first, get off four attacks. Any one of the arrows hit, they get to use Banishing Arrow. That's a charisma save, which is a bad save for wizard. This banishes the wizard and causes them to lose their turn, effectively granting the Fighter more attacks they can launch, definitely dealing more HP than the wizard has health.
Grappling and restraining. There's some debate how it interferes with somatic and verbal components, but in Mearl's own words, "depends on situation and nature of restraint." Which means there are ways to use grappling on mages to prevent them from casting spells, though the details are undefined. I would imagine that a Fighter with the Grapple feat would know enough to be able to restrain a wizard.
That's just three things off the top of my head, and that no one is open to discussing such things is rather sad, in my opinion. There's a lot of cool options for Fighters that are being ignored here - I guess the stereotype of the Fighter acting like the simple Champion is too strong?
To a counterpoint many spells that are listed are save or suck spells like Forcecage, Planeshift, and some just powerful spells like Invulnerability and wish that just would destroy a Fighter.
In most hypothetical fights it is ether battlemaster, samurai, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Archer.
While Wizard is ether Divination, Chronurgist, illusion, or Abjuration. With the most said are Divination or Chronurgist.
And lets assume it’s Divination (The most mentioned) vs the arcane archer (the one you mentioned). All the Wizard would need to do would survive banishing arrow and could use one portent to do so (I assume the three portents are 5ish, 10ish, and 15ish). He would succeed against the arrow and since you have only two uses and can use only one per turn he would be fine this turn and once his turn comes around he would use a save or suck spell and/or a teleportation spell to get a little prepared.
And as LeviRocks said the Wizard could use shield and be quite fine against the arrows.
As with the grappling when grappled you can’t move with no mention of stopping spellcasting (same thing with restrained). The only way you’d block his casting is with Counterspell because if a Barbarian could grapple the BBEG the lich and stop the lich using his hands or mouth to speak that would be OP so.. . Yeah.
@Mephista, I think the reason why The wizard would not care about the fighter is quite simple. There is not much a fighter could do to a 20th Level Wizard.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell. Heck a fighter is more likely to take off their armor than the wizard not having their contingency spell on for 10 days.
The contingency would be if anyone is trying to attack the mage, Resilient Sphere is cast ( Up to DM how it can be worded. A melee weapon and ranged weapon reaching within 5 feet of the wizard or something like that). So even if the Wizard loses initiative, about the only thing I can think of they can do is push the sphere around. Resilient Sphere is a concentration spell, when ever the wizard has a 1st turn, the would cast invulnerability which would stop the sphere, but they would now be invulnerable for the next 100 turns.
I would give the fighter buckley's chance of surviving what ever the wizard wants to do with the left over 21 spell slots, Especially if you are going to count, evocation wizard with over channel or divination wizard with portent or just using lots of mind spikes and getting spell slots back, Spell mastery, signature spell or even spam something like toll the head for 100 turns.
You have to remember if a Fighter has magic items, then the wizard needs equal value items unless there is a handy cap. And if the fighter can prep like putting on their armor first, then a wizard should have things like contingency or simulacrum.
Demonwobatofdoom you mentioned this:
“I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell. Heck a fighter is more likely to take off their armor than the wizard not having their contingency spell on for 10 days.”
My answer to that is no, just no. One is armor one is a spell. The fighter would have his chain on and the wizard not have contingency.
To a counterpoint many spells that are listed are save or suck spells like Forcecage, Planeshift, and some just powerful spells like Invulnerability and wish that just would destroy a Fighter.
See, that's the fundamental problem. You're willing to talk about abilities that can target the Fighter's weak points. And that's a valid tactic for a caster. My problem is that there's very little discussion about the reverse and the Fighter using tactics. Its not a fair discussion, its an unbalanced one.
And lets assume it’s Divination (The most mentioned) vs the arcane archer (the one you mentioned). All the Wizard would need to do would survive banishing arrow and could use one portent to do so (I assume the three portents are 5ish, 10ish, and 15ish). He would succeed against the arrow and since you have only two uses and can use only one per turn he would be fine this turn and once his turn comes around he would use a save or suck spell and/or a teleportation spell to get a little prepared.
That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.
As with the grappling when grappled you can’t move with no mention of stopping spellcasting (same thing with restrained)
Its a situation that Mike Mearls talked about online. He said it was possible to use Restrain to restrict somatic and vocal components, depending on the situation. There are also rulings made about binding hands to stop somatic gestures, and blocking vocal components by silencing a mage. All these are valid tactics to discuss and use, though admittedly open to GM rulings, as I mentioned before.
@Mephista, I think the reason why The wizard would not care about the fighter is quite simple. There is not much a fighter could do to a 20th Level Wizard.
Sure there is. People just aren't talking about it.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell.
No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
You have to remember if a Fighter has magic items, then the wizard needs equal value items unless there is a handy cap. And if the fighter can prep like putting on their armor first, then a wizard should have things like contingency or simulacrum.
No one has included magical items in this discussion. Not sure why you're bringing it up.
Actually, removing magical items from play inflicts a handicap on the Fighter, while it doesn't really affect the Wizard much. The reason? Magical items for warrior types tend to directly increase their damage potential and options. Magical items for wizards tend to increase their spell repertoire and spells per day, neither of which is exactly relevant for a fight determined within 10 seconds.
To a counterpoint many spells that are listed are save or suck spells like Forcecage, Planeshift, and some just powerful spells like Invulnerability and wish that just would destroy a Fighter.
See, that's the fundamental problem. You're willing to talk about abilities that can target the Fighter's weak points. And that's a valid tactic for a caster. My problem is that there's very little discussion about the reverse and the Fighter using tactics. Its not a fair discussion, its an unbalanced one.
And lets assume it’s Divination (The most mentioned) vs the arcane archer (the one you mentioned). All the Wizard would need to do would survive banishing arrow and could use one portent to do so (I assume the three portents are 5ish, 10ish, and 15ish). He would succeed against the arrow and since you have only two uses and can use only one per turn he would be fine this turn and once his turn comes around he would use a save or suck spell and/or a teleportation spell to get a little prepared.
That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.
As with the grappling when grappled you can’t move with no mention of stopping spellcasting (same thing with restrained)
Its a situation that Mike Mearls talked about online. He said it was possible to use Restrain to restrict somatic and vocal components, depending on the situation. There are also rulings made about binding hands to stop somatic gestures, and blocking vocal components by silencing a mage. All these are valid tactics to discuss and use, though admittedly open to GM rulings, as I mentioned before.
@Mephista, I think the reason why The wizard would not care about the fighter is quite simple. There is not much a fighter could do to a 20th Level Wizard.
Sure there is. People just aren't talking about it.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell.
No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
You have to remember if a Fighter has magic items, then the wizard needs equal value items unless there is a handy cap. And if the fighter can prep like putting on their armor first, then a wizard should have things like contingency or simulacrum.
No one has included magical items in this discussion. Not sure why you're bringing it up.
Actually, removing magical items from play inflicts a handicap on the Fighter, while it doesn't really affect the Wizard much. The reason? Magical items for warrior types tend to directly increase their damage potential and options. Magical items for wizards tend to increase their spell repertoire and spells per day, neither of which is exactly relevant for a fight determined within 10 seconds.
1st point you made:
”You're willing to talk about abilities that can target the Fighter's weak points. And that's a valid tactic for a caster. My problem is that there's very little discussion about the reverse and the Fighter using tactics.”
Answer: That’s the point of the debate and I’m sorry not a lot of people take your position and you are supposed to reply to the opposite opinion and I reply to your reply and so on so give me a good reason and I will rebut to the best of my ability.
2nd point you made:
“That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.”
Answer: Banishing arrow has a charisma save I would use the portent to “succeed against the arrow” as I said and that point is still valid though.
3rd point you made:
”Its a situation that Mike Mearls talked about online. He said it was possible to use Restrain to restrict somatic and vocal components, depending on the situation. There are also rulings made about binding hands to stop somatic gestures, and blocking vocal components by silencing a mage. All these are valid tactics to discuss and use, though admittedly open to GM rulings, as I mentioned before.”
Answer: Use restrain you say but to do so with the grappler feat you must first have them grappled and I’d argue simply grappling wouldn’t stop spellcasting. Additionally to use the special part of the Grappler you must use your action.
4th point you made:
“No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.”
Answer: I absolutely agree I have no clue what that guy thought tbh.
(On a side note I also responded to him:
“My answer to that is no, just no. One is armor one is a spell. The fighter would have his chain on and the wizard not have contingency.”)
5th point you made:
“No one has included magical items in this discussion. Not sure why you're bringing it up.
Actually, removing magical items from play inflicts a handicap on the Fighter, while it doesn't really affect the Wizard much. The reason? Magical items for warrior types tend to directly increase their damage potential and options. Magical items for wizards tend to increase their spell repertoire and spells per day, neither of which is exactly relevant for a fight determined within 10 seconds.”
Answer: Magic items have been mentioned previously in the history of the discussion and yes if Boots of flying were given to the wizard and fighter, the fighter would gain a new movement option while a wizard would just save a third level spell slot (Fly).
Now Mephista respond and prove me wrong or add new things to discuss to why the wizard would lose more than 1/100 fights with the fighter.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell.
No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
I was just trying to put more logic into it. The fighter would have their armor off every day to sleep, bath and use the bathroom(maybe haha), but a wizard would normally have contingency spell non stop for 10 days(just using 2 spell slots in 10 days). This is like giving the Wizard a handy cap because they would be at their weakest.
oh as for the magic items, some previous post was mentioning ioun stones of absorbtion. But totally agree, it would be a silly conversation if it started to include magic tiems.
One thing that the Fighter does have going for it, is with 7 ASI's they should on average have a higher dex than Wizard. unless they pumped it all into STR and CON first. So more likely to go first with initiative.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell.
No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
I was just trying to put more logic into it. The fighter would have their armor off every day to sleep, bath and use the bathroom(maybe haha), but a wizard would normally have contingency spell non stop for 10 days(just using 2 spell slots in 10 days). This is like giving the Wizard a handy cap because they would be at their weakest.
oh as for the magic items, some previous post was mentioning ioun stones of absorbtion. But totally agree, it would be a silly conversation if it started to include magic tiems.
One thing that the Fighter does have going for it, is with 7 ASI's they should on average have a higher dex than Wizard. unless they pumped it all into STR and CON first. So more likely to go first with initiative.
I do acknowledge that yes a normal lv 20 wizard would have Contingency but I assumed that nether have prep besides necessary prep ie prepare spells or like infusions for an Artificer.
Additionally I feel that merely equipping your starting equipment is harsh especially if armor or an action for a shield at the start of combat.
1st Point you said:
“One thing that the Fighter does have going for it, is with 7 ASI's they should on average have a higher dex than Wizard. unless they pumped it all into STR and CON first. So more likely to go first with initiative.”
Answer: Not necessarily if it’s a ranged or dexterity build if will have a higher base score but then again if the Wizard is divination they can use a portent, one of three to get a better “roll.”
This is for the people at the beginning of the discussion but if any want to please do rebut. (It’s kinda sarcastic but informative)
The highest AC a Wizard can get: 23 [13+5+5 (Mage armor+Max Dex+Shield)] a fighter using sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master has a +6 or a 28% to hit. And yes you would deal a lot of damage if you even hit.
Yes, the fighter would win if he had 30+ magic items while the Wizard has none.
Yes if the Fighter fails a single save he kinda loses.
Yes without magic items a Wizard if has shapechange or invulnerability instantly wins by become immune to the fighter (ie, by becoming a per say a Rakshasa becoming immune to non magical slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning)
Yes the fighter wins if he saves vs the first 4 spells.
Yes the fighter wins if everything goes his way.
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Yeah if the Wizard is good at being a Wizard the Wizard wins because of invulnerability or many of his powerful Wizard spells from the Wizard spell list.
Also If the Wizard gets a single turn he wins so yeah.
Additionally, Wizard
The people who were backing up fighter were saying "why should the wizard get to pick those spells". Spells are to the wizard what Weapons and Feats are to the Fighter.
The wizard should be able to pick any spell that they'd have access to (so only dunamancy for the dunamancers), and have no restrictions on what spells from their list they can choose.
If you don't let the wizard choose their spells, then the fighter doesn't get to choose their weapons.
I think the census is that Wizards win if they get to go, and it will probably remain this way until Wizards of the Coast makes a fighter subclass that can somehow force the wizard to lose.
(One thing I don't think that people have pointed out is that eldritch knight can learn counterspell, but it can't do it many times, and the wizard could just counterspell them, and eldritch knights tend to do less damage than most other fighter subclasses.)
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Did you know we are debating against no one but yeah wizards are strong.
Sorry, what? I don't really understand that last post, it's a bit confusing. Might need some grammar fixes.
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I wanted to say Wizard a lot giving emphasis that wizards are a powerhouse of magic and the “Additionally, Wizard” was a attempt at a joke given the fact that I purposely put Wizard into the paragraph multiple times.
I’m dumb
I meant the other one, I understood the Wizard one.
Yes, we are currently debating against no one, just wanted to make a few points. Wizard wins in a fair fight where they get to go.
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I know the:
Was on the fact that I read the wrong thing.
Okay.
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You know, I find these discussions to be a bit off, because they tend to come down to one side ignoring what another side can do. I see lots of people listing off spell after spell. But I see a distinct lack of people willing to discuss how Maneuvers, or things like Arcane Shots, or Eldritch Knight abilities, etc can work to the Fighter's advantage. The wizard gets to use Shield, but a Fighter can't use a tripping attack, then get advantage to attacks while the wizard is down?
For instance, lets say that we have an Arcane Archer. They go first, get off four attacks. Any one of the arrows hit, they get to use Banishing Arrow. That's a charisma save, which is a bad save for wizard. This banishes the wizard and causes them to lose their turn, effectively granting the Fighter more attacks they can launch, definitely dealing more HP than the wizard has health.
Grappling and restraining. There's some debate how it interferes with somatic and verbal components, but in Mearl's own words, "depends on situation and nature of restraint." Which means there are ways to use grappling on mages to prevent them from casting spells, though the details are undefined. I would imagine that a Fighter with the Grapple feat would know enough to be able to restrain a wizard.
That's just three things off the top of my head, and that no one is open to discussing such things is rather sad, in my opinion. There's a lot of cool options for Fighters that are being ignored here - I guess the stereotype of the Fighter acting like the simple Champion is too strong?
@Mephista, I think the reason why The wizard would not care about the fighter is quite simple. There is not much a fighter could do to a 20th Level Wizard.
I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell. Heck a fighter is more likely to take off their armor than the wizard not having their contingency spell on for 10 days.
The contingency would be if anyone is trying to attack the mage, Resilient Sphere is cast ( Up to DM how it can be worded. A melee weapon and ranged weapon reaching within 5 feet of the wizard or something like that). So even if the Wizard loses initiative, about the only thing I can think of they can do is push the sphere around. Resilient Sphere is a concentration spell, when ever the wizard has a 1st turn, the would cast invulnerability which would stop the sphere, but they would now be invulnerable for the next 100 turns.
I would give the fighter buckley's chance of surviving what ever the wizard wants to do with the left over 21 spell slots, Especially if you are going to count, evocation wizard with over channel or divination wizard with portent or just using lots of mind spikes and getting spell slots back, Spell mastery, signature spell or even spam something like toll the head for 100 turns.
You have to remember if a Fighter has magic items, then the wizard needs equal value items unless there is a handy cap. And if the fighter can prep like putting on their armor first, then a wizard should have things like contingency or simulacrum.
To a counterpoint many spells that are listed are save or suck spells like Forcecage, Planeshift, and some just powerful spells like Invulnerability and wish that just would destroy a Fighter.
In most hypothetical fights it is ether battlemaster, samurai, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Archer.
While Wizard is ether Divination, Chronurgist, illusion, or Abjuration. With the most said are Divination or Chronurgist.
And lets assume it’s Divination (The most mentioned) vs the arcane archer (the one you mentioned). All the Wizard would need to do would survive banishing arrow and could use one portent to do so (I assume the three portents are 5ish, 10ish, and 15ish). He would succeed against the arrow and since you have only two uses and can use only one per turn he would be fine this turn and once his turn comes around he would use a save or suck spell and/or a teleportation spell to get a little prepared.
And as LeviRocks said the Wizard could use shield and be quite fine against the arrows.
As with the grappling when grappled you can’t move with no mention of stopping spellcasting (same thing with restrained). The only way you’d block his casting is with Counterspell because if a Barbarian could grapple the BBEG the lich and stop the lich using his hands or mouth to speak that would be OP so.. . Yeah.
Demonwobatofdoom you mentioned this:
“I'll give you an example. If fighter is allowed to have their armor on. Then a Wizard should be able to use the Contingency spell. Heck a fighter is more likely to take off their armor than the wizard not having their contingency spell on for 10 days.”
My answer to that is no, just no. One is armor one is a spell. The fighter would have his chain on and the wizard not have contingency.
See, that's the fundamental problem. You're willing to talk about abilities that can target the Fighter's weak points. And that's a valid tactic for a caster. My problem is that there's very little discussion about the reverse and the Fighter using tactics. Its not a fair discussion, its an unbalanced one.
That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.
Its a situation that Mike Mearls talked about online. He said it was possible to use Restrain to restrict somatic and vocal components, depending on the situation. There are also rulings made about binding hands to stop somatic gestures, and blocking vocal components by silencing a mage. All these are valid tactics to discuss and use, though admittedly open to GM rulings, as I mentioned before.
Sure there is. People just aren't talking about it.
No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
No one has included magical items in this discussion. Not sure why you're bringing it up.
Actually, removing magical items from play inflicts a handicap on the Fighter, while it doesn't really affect the Wizard much. The reason? Magical items for warrior types tend to directly increase their damage potential and options. Magical items for wizards tend to increase their spell repertoire and spells per day, neither of which is exactly relevant for a fight determined within 10 seconds.
1st point you made:
”You're willing to talk about abilities that can target the Fighter's weak points. And that's a valid tactic for a caster. My problem is that there's very little discussion about the reverse and the Fighter using tactics.”
Answer: That’s the point of the debate and I’m sorry not a lot of people take your position and you are supposed to reply to the opposite opinion and I reply to your reply and so on so give me a good reason and I will rebut to the best of my ability.
2nd point you made:
“That's not how the rules work, though. Arcane Arrow's abilities can be triggered after you see the result, Portent triggers before the roll result. So, the Diviner would use Portent to make arrow X miss*, then the Fighter just doesn't use his Banishing Arrow ability. Its only after the arrow hits does the ability activate. So the diviner will never cause a Banishing Arrow to miss, because it never becomes a Banishing Arrow if he makes it miss.”
Answer: Banishing arrow has a charisma save I would use the portent to “succeed against the arrow” as I said and that point is still valid though.
3rd point you made:
”Its a situation that Mike Mearls talked about online. He said it was possible to use Restrain to restrict somatic and vocal components, depending on the situation. There are also rulings made about binding hands to stop somatic gestures, and blocking vocal components by silencing a mage. All these are valid tactics to discuss and use, though admittedly open to GM rulings, as I mentioned before.”
Answer: Use restrain you say but to do so with the grappler feat you must first have them grappled and I’d argue simply grappling wouldn’t stop spellcasting. Additionally to use the special part of the Grappler you must use your action.
4th point you made:
“No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.”
Answer: I absolutely agree I have no clue what that guy thought tbh.
(On a side note I also responded to him:
“My answer to that is no, just no. One is armor one is a spell. The fighter would have his chain on and the wizard not have contingency.”)
5th point you made:
“No one has included magical items in this discussion. Not sure why you're bringing it up.
Actually, removing magical items from play inflicts a handicap on the Fighter, while it doesn't really affect the Wizard much. The reason? Magical items for warrior types tend to directly increase their damage potential and options. Magical items for wizards tend to increase their spell repertoire and spells per day, neither of which is exactly relevant for a fight determined within 10 seconds.”
Answer: Magic items have been mentioned previously in the history of the discussion and yes if Boots of flying were given to the wizard and fighter, the fighter would gain a new movement option while a wizard would just save a third level spell slot (Fly).
Now Mephista respond and prove me wrong or add new things to discuss to why the wizard would lose more than 1/100 fights with the fighter.
No, if a fighter is allowed to wear armor, a wizard is allowed to have Mage Armor. That's the nearest equivalent, and I don't think anyone is really expecting otherwise. If you start talking about all the other spells a wizard can prepare, then we should be allowing the Fighter to make preparations as well. And that's just a rabbit hole no one wants to go down.
I was just trying to put more logic into it. The fighter would have their armor off every day to sleep, bath and use the bathroom(maybe haha), but a wizard would normally have contingency spell non stop for 10 days(just using 2 spell slots in 10 days). This is like giving the Wizard a handy cap because they would be at their weakest.
oh as for the magic items, some previous post was mentioning ioun stones of absorbtion. But totally agree, it would be a silly conversation if it started to include magic tiems.
One thing that the Fighter does have going for it, is with 7 ASI's they should on average have a higher dex than Wizard. unless they pumped it all into STR and CON first. So more likely to go first with initiative.
I do acknowledge that yes a normal lv 20 wizard would have Contingency but I assumed that nether have prep besides necessary prep ie prepare spells or like infusions for an Artificer.
Additionally I feel that merely equipping your starting equipment is harsh especially if armor or an action for a shield at the start of combat.
1st Point you said:
“One thing that the Fighter does have going for it, is with 7 ASI's they should on average have a higher dex than Wizard. unless they pumped it all into STR and CON first. So more likely to go first with initiative.”
Answer: Not necessarily if it’s a ranged or dexterity build if will have a higher base score but then again if the Wizard is divination they can use a portent, one of three to get a better “roll.”
I think the 20th Level Fighter would win.
"A Jack Of All Trades is a master of none"
'That's why I hate Bards'
How so please do explain your reasoning and which subclass, race and build excluding magic items of course.
This is for the people at the beginning of the discussion but if any want to please do rebut. (It’s kinda sarcastic but informative)
The highest AC a Wizard can get: 23 [13+5+5 (Mage armor+Max Dex+Shield)] a fighter using sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master has a +6 or a 28% to hit. And yes you would deal a lot of damage if you even hit.
Yes, the fighter would win if he had 30+ magic items while the Wizard has none.
Yes if the Fighter fails a single save he kinda loses.
Yes without magic items a Wizard if has shapechange or invulnerability instantly wins by become immune to the fighter (ie, by becoming a per say a Rakshasa becoming immune to non magical slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning)
Yes the fighter wins if he saves vs the first 4 spells.
Yes the fighter wins if everything goes his way.