The class looks like the first fighter subclass that I've felt excited to play apart from Battle Master. Make a V. Human with Sentinel, chain mail and glaive to start. Then at level 3 I can have the echo make the OAs and freeze creatures if they hit. Super good. If you hit a flying creature with no hovering, that's a lot of good fall damage too! I love this new direction WotC is trying to go in to give you access to abilities that are core to the class but also aren't limited. Very awesome!
Why the reach weapon? It doesn't help the Echo's OA trigger.
Ah shit, I misspoke earlier. I meant a Great Weapon. You're right, you don't need a reach weapon. For some reason I always default to reach weapons when I sketch out fighter concepts. Call it a reflex.
Ah shit, I misspoke earlier. I meant a Great Weapon. You're right, you don't need a reach weapon. For some reason I always default to reach weapons when I sketch out fighter concepts. Call it a reflex.
I do think greatweapons are going to be the best for this subclass. Being specifically made for melee and being able to disregard having an optimized AC means that a great weapon is the best weapon for an Echo Knight
Yeah, this is also why I strongly recommend this as a dip for paladins, or a dip into paladins from Echo Knight. The 3 stats you want to focus on with paladin is Strenght, Constitution, and Charisma, 2 of these stats are important to this subclass.
(I would do Devotion or Redemption for the theme of protector)
You can divine smite at range, be better at protecting others, negate attacks and damage, punish people when they do hit, and be great with two-handed weapons.
Makes sense mechanically and thematically.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Yeah, this is also why I strongly recommend this as a dip for paladins, or a dip into paladins from Echo Knight. The 3 stats you want to focus on with paladin is Strenght, Constitution, and Charisma, 2 of these stats are important to this subclass.
(I would do Devotion or Redemption for the theme of protector)
You can divine smite at range, be better at protecting others, negate attacks and damage, punish people when they do hit, and be great with two-handed weapons.
Makes sense mechanically and thematically.
I agree that this would make a good dip subclass for paladins, however, I think if you're looking to make an optimized multiclassed Echo Knight that dips into another class, Barbarian is the way to go. Going of Treantmonk's review, two levels of barbarian provides reckless attack, which pairs very well with the greatweapon specialization.
Yeah. There certainly are benefits to staying Fighter to level 20, but for story elements, multiclassing could also be fairly good. Fighter would definitely be the main class, though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The major problem I see with MC is that a lot of features/feats rely on "Opportunity Attacks" in which the attack the Echo Knight does is explicitly not that. I wish it was as it would work with Sentinel and War Caster. I would love to Booming Blade as a reaction to a fleeing enemy from the Echo.
It literally lets you make OAs from its space. Why wouldn’t sentinel or war caster apply? It’s you attacking...not the echo. Surely, that would mean you get the benefits of any feats you have. Including sentinel and war caster. I would probably rule it as such at my table. Most interpretations of the rules seem to agree on that point.
It literally lets you make OAs from its space. Why wouldn’t sentinel or war caster apply? It’s you attacking...not the echo. Surely, that would mean you get the benefits of any feats you have. Including sentinel and war caster. I would probably rule it as such at my table. Most interpretations of the rules seem to agree on that point.
Well there's several problems with this. Let's look at the sentinel feat wording and the relevant wording for the echo.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
The first feature works, which is why I see so much value in the feat. The second feature requires the creature to leave your reach. The echo is not your reach. The echo's OA is essentially a special feature, it does not follow any other OA rules as if it's you. For the third feature it has to be a creature within 5 ft of you, not within 5 ft of the echo. You are not your echo, so only the first clause works for echoes.
Next, Warcaster
You have practiced casting spells in the midst of combat, learning techniques that grant you the following benefits:
You have advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage.
You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
The first two clauses don't matter, as Echoes aren't the ones focusing on spells or casting spells. The first condition is met, if a creature moves 5ft away from the echo, its movement has in fact provoked an OA from you. However, it's not clear if you can cast spells through an echo. I'd see if any sage advice comes out for this.
Fair points. Though one could argue with respect to warcaster, if the spell is cast on your weapon (eg: booming blade) then the damage should transfer through the echo. It also satisfies the “must target only that creature” portion of the feat. But that’s just my opinion.
Fair points. Though one could argue with respect to warcaster, if the spell is cast on your weapon (eg: booming blade) then the damage should transfer through the echo. It also satisfies the “must target only that creature” portion of the feat. But that’s just my opinion.
I'm not sure about that still, after all, the melee attack is a component, the booming blade cantrip still falls under the 'cast a spell' action.
Fair points. Though one could argue with respect to warcaster, if the spell is cast on your weapon (eg: booming blade) then the damage should transfer through the echo. It also satisfies the “must target only that creature” portion of the feat. But that’s just my opinion.
I'm not sure about that still, after all, the melee attack is a component, the booming blade cantrip still falls under the 'cast a spell' action.
Also if casting a spell through the Echo was RAI then I think you could cast Melee Spells through the Echo normally...which you can't.
Since only one part of sentinel works with the Echo its questionable if it would be good....I think it likely would still be a good choice but I think I would rather take STR/DEX and CON to 20 first.
Fair points. Though one could argue with respect to warcaster, if the spell is cast on your weapon (eg: booming blade) then the damage should transfer through the echo. It also satisfies the “must target only that creature” portion of the feat. But that’s just my opinion.
I'm not sure about that still, after all, the melee attack is a component, the booming blade cantrip still falls under the 'cast a spell' action.
Also if casting a spell through the Echo was RAI then I think you could cast Melee Spells through the Echo normally...which you can't.
Since only one part of sentinel works with the Echo its questionable if it would be good....I think it likely would still be a good choice but I think I would rather take STR/DEX and CON to 20 first.
Con 20 is immediate goals for Echo Knight. The Sentinel feat is one of the best feats for Echo Knight, I’ve been saying it and now Treantmonk’s review is saying it. The threat of an OA from and Echo reducing movement to zero is a huge boost to control. You’re telling enemies, you either waste an attack on a 1 hp object, or you risk getting hurt and stuck. I don’t care much for being able to stop a disengage or strike at enemies attacking my allies with the echo. If an enemy disengages, that’s an action wasted. Action economy is now in your favor.
Fair points. Though one could argue with respect to warcaster, if the spell is cast on your weapon (eg: booming blade) then the damage should transfer through the echo. It also satisfies the “must target only that creature” portion of the feat. But that’s just my opinion.
I'm not sure about that still, after all, the melee attack is a component, the booming blade cantrip still falls under the 'cast a spell' action.
Also if casting a spell through the Echo was RAI then I think you could cast Melee Spells through the Echo normally...which you can't.
Since only one part of sentinel works with the Echo its questionable if it would be good....I think it likely would still be a good choice but I think I would rather take STR/DEX and CON to 20 first.
Con 20 is immediate goals for Echo Knight. The Sentinel feat is one of the best feats for Echo Knight, I’ve been saying it and now Treantmonk’s review is saying it. The threat of an OA from and Echo reducing movement to zero is a huge boost to control. You’re telling enemies, you either waste an attack on a 1 hp object, or you risk getting hurt and stuck. I don’t care much for being able to stop a disengage or strike at enemies attacking my allies with the echo. If an enemy disengages, that’s an action wasted. Action economy is now in your favor.
So would you sacrifice STR/DEX for the feat?
I just dont see it before 8th level and even then I would like to have that extra attack per day by increasing CON.
These are some interesting interactions, to be sure, but I think there is two key parts to pay attention to here. In the Manifest Echo, it says:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
This means that if the prereq (an enemy moving away from the Echo) happens, you get to take an Opportunity Attack against that creature as if your PC was in the Echo's space. So anything that is a valid Opportunity Attack, or that triggers on Opportunity Attacks, will work on this attack. Sentinel says "When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn." So even though you can't use the Sentinel feat to get the free special reaction attack when enemies attack allies, you DO set a creatures speed to 0. Warcaster says "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." So you trigger an Opportunity Attack with Manifest Echo, and can use Warcaster to Cast a spell in place of that Opportunity Attack, and this all works because, mechanically, for that Opportunity Attack you count as being in the Echo's space.
Lets look at the current weirdness due to wording.
Ranged attacks can be substituted when making an attack, but you can NOT use Unleash Incarnation to get extra attacks with ranged weapons. You CAN use a Ranged attack, and Unleash Incarnation to take a melee attack from the Echo's position, so you could Unarmed Attack with Unleash Incarnation while shooting with a bow(which gets better if you are part Monk).
The Echo does not threaten squares traditionally, the Fighter has to SEE the movement in order to get the Opportunity Attack. Disengage can be used to avoid the Opportunity Attack even if the Fighter has Sentinel. Alternatively, anything that blocks the fighters sight renders the Echo useless, as he still has to see to be able to make Opportunity Attacks through the Echo, and not being able to see means if he tries to attack through the Echo, then he is treated as if he is blind, so disadvantage and doesn't even know if he is targeting the right square.
You can't normally use attack spells through the Echo, but specifically when using Warcaster to replace the Opportunity Attack with a Spell you can.
The relevant part of the description says "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space." Surely the phrase "as if you were in the echo's space" means that it is treated as if it was within your reach, as that would be the case if you were actually in the echo's space? Therefore the entirety of both the Sentinel and War Caster feats apply to the opportunity attack.
I started typing about a possible Rogue (Swashbuckler) 17/Fighter (Echo Knight) 3 build designed to use Sentinel to trigger Sneak Attack twice per round, but the damage is actually rather lackluster even in the higher tiers of play once the build has come online. I really overestimated the power of Sneak Attack. I'd definitely stay single classed with this subclass and pick up Sentinel early, bump Str and Con to 18 then pick up Great Weapon Master and possibly Resilient: Wis before finishing off my Str and Con.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Why the reach weapon? It doesn't help the Echo's OA trigger.
Ah shit, I misspoke earlier. I meant a Great Weapon. You're right, you don't need a reach weapon. For some reason I always default to reach weapons when I sketch out fighter concepts. Call it a reflex.
I do think greatweapons are going to be the best for this subclass. Being specifically made for melee and being able to disregard having an optimized AC means that a great weapon is the best weapon for an Echo Knight
Yeah, this is also why I strongly recommend this as a dip for paladins, or a dip into paladins from Echo Knight. The 3 stats you want to focus on with paladin is Strenght, Constitution, and Charisma, 2 of these stats are important to this subclass.
(I would do Devotion or Redemption for the theme of protector)
You can divine smite at range, be better at protecting others, negate attacks and damage, punish people when they do hit, and be great with two-handed weapons.
Makes sense mechanically and thematically.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree that this would make a good dip subclass for paladins, however, I think if you're looking to make an optimized multiclassed Echo Knight that dips into another class, Barbarian is the way to go. Going of Treantmonk's review, two levels of barbarian provides reckless attack, which pairs very well with the greatweapon specialization.
A dip into both could also be good.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That's true, although I probably wouldn't multiclass at all. At least not with the echo knight character I currently have
Yeah. There certainly are benefits to staying Fighter to level 20, but for story elements, multiclassing could also be fairly good. Fighter would definitely be the main class, though.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
True and you wouldn't need a hexblade dip either. Keep everything revolving around STR.
The major problem I see with MC is that a lot of features/feats rely on "Opportunity Attacks" in which the attack the Echo Knight does is explicitly not that. I wish it was as it would work with Sentinel and War Caster. I would love to Booming Blade as a reaction to a fleeing enemy from the Echo.
It literally lets you make OAs from its space. Why wouldn’t sentinel or war caster apply? It’s you attacking...not the echo. Surely, that would mean you get the benefits of any feats you have. Including sentinel and war caster. I would probably rule it as such at my table. Most interpretations of the rules seem to agree on that point.
Sentinel would apply, so would War Caster.
Polearm Master's opportunity attack when creatures move within your reach wouldn't apply, neither would 10 foot reach opportunity attacks.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Well there's several problems with this. Let's look at the sentinel feat wording and the relevant wording for the echo.
The first feature works, which is why I see so much value in the feat. The second feature requires the creature to leave your reach. The echo is not your reach. The echo's OA is essentially a special feature, it does not follow any other OA rules as if it's you. For the third feature it has to be a creature within 5 ft of you, not within 5 ft of the echo. You are not your echo, so only the first clause works for echoes.
Next, Warcaster
The first two clauses don't matter, as Echoes aren't the ones focusing on spells or casting spells. The first condition is met, if a creature moves 5ft away from the echo, its movement has in fact provoked an OA from you. However, it's not clear if you can cast spells through an echo. I'd see if any sage advice comes out for this.
Fair points. Though one could argue with respect to warcaster, if the spell is cast on your weapon (eg: booming blade) then the damage should transfer through the echo. It also satisfies the “must target only that creature” portion of the feat. But that’s just my opinion.
I'm not sure about that still, after all, the melee attack is a component, the booming blade cantrip still falls under the 'cast a spell' action.
Also if casting a spell through the Echo was RAI then I think you could cast Melee Spells through the Echo normally...which you can't.
Since only one part of sentinel works with the Echo its questionable if it would be good....I think it likely would still be a good choice but I think I would rather take STR/DEX and CON to 20 first.
Con 20 is immediate goals for Echo Knight. The Sentinel feat is one of the best feats for Echo Knight, I’ve been saying it and now Treantmonk’s review is saying it. The threat of an OA from and Echo reducing movement to zero is a huge boost to control. You’re telling enemies, you either waste an attack on a 1 hp object, or you risk getting hurt and stuck. I don’t care much for being able to stop a disengage or strike at enemies attacking my allies with the echo. If an enemy disengages, that’s an action wasted. Action economy is now in your favor.
So would you sacrifice STR/DEX for the feat?
I just dont see it before 8th level and even then I would like to have that extra attack per day by increasing CON.
These are some interesting interactions, to be sure, but I think there is two key parts to pay attention to here. In the Manifest Echo, it says:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
This means that if the prereq (an enemy moving away from the Echo) happens, you get to take an Opportunity Attack against that creature as if your PC was in the Echo's space. So anything that is a valid Opportunity Attack, or that triggers on Opportunity Attacks, will work on this attack. Sentinel says "When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn." So even though you can't use the Sentinel feat to get the free special reaction attack when enemies attack allies, you DO set a creatures speed to 0. Warcaster says "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." So you trigger an Opportunity Attack with Manifest Echo, and can use Warcaster to Cast a spell in place of that Opportunity Attack, and this all works because, mechanically, for that Opportunity Attack you count as being in the Echo's space.
Lets look at the current weirdness due to wording.
Ranged attacks can be substituted when making an attack, but you can NOT use Unleash Incarnation to get extra attacks with ranged weapons. You CAN use a Ranged attack, and Unleash Incarnation to take a melee attack from the Echo's position, so you could Unarmed Attack with Unleash Incarnation while shooting with a bow(which gets better if you are part Monk).
The Echo does not threaten squares traditionally, the Fighter has to SEE the movement in order to get the Opportunity Attack. Disengage can be used to avoid the Opportunity Attack even if the Fighter has Sentinel. Alternatively, anything that blocks the fighters sight renders the Echo useless, as he still has to see to be able to make Opportunity Attacks through the Echo, and not being able to see means if he tries to attack through the Echo, then he is treated as if he is blind, so disadvantage and doesn't even know if he is targeting the right square.
You can't normally use attack spells through the Echo, but specifically when using Warcaster to replace the Opportunity Attack with a Spell you can.
Any other strange interactions people see?
The relevant part of the description says "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space." Surely the phrase "as if you were in the echo's space" means that it is treated as if it was within your reach, as that would be the case if you were actually in the echo's space? Therefore the entirety of both the Sentinel and War Caster feats apply to the opportunity attack.
I started typing about a possible Rogue (Swashbuckler) 17/Fighter (Echo Knight) 3 build designed to use Sentinel to trigger Sneak Attack twice per round, but the damage is actually rather lackluster even in the higher tiers of play once the build has come online. I really overestimated the power of Sneak Attack. I'd definitely stay single classed with this subclass and pick up Sentinel early, bump Str and Con to 18 then pick up Great Weapon Master and possibly Resilient: Wis before finishing off my Str and Con.