Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
Can you Unleash Incarnation multiple times in a turn? I'd only use it once per Attack action, but I'm not sure what the ruling is here. Maybe if you action surged or had haste, then you could do one each Attack action, I'd allow that, but I don't know if just under normal circumstances you could. Correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone but ProxyJames,) but I interpret "Whenever you take the Attack action" as once when you take it.
No I don’t think you can use it more than once per attack. I used attack, unleash, then action surge, then attack, unleash. Very nice burst.
That's what I assumed would happen, and did happen. Just a clarification. That is very powerful for level 3. What weapons were you using? I assume a greatsword, or halberd.
I was using a long sword with dueling. I failed to mention getting two critical hits lol, that certainly helped the damage spike
That's a good combo. I prefer heavy weapons for Great Weapon Master, Great Weapon Fighting, and Polearm Master, but longsword works for tanking and protection.
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the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter.
Where's the rules on objects? Page 246 and 247 of the DMG. Here, let me copy past a small section of the OFFICIAL DMG RULES ABOUT OBJECTS
Objects and Damage Types. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. You might decide that some damage types are more effective against a particular object or substance than others. For example, bludgeoning damage works well for smashing things but not for cutting through rope or leather. Paper or cloth objects might be vulnerable to fire and lightning damage. A pick can chip away stone but can't effectively cut down a tree. As always, use your best judgment.
What's that first ******* line? IMMUNE to poison and psychic damage. If you are too incompetent to read and understand the rules and know how they work, that doesn't mean other people are making shit up. Also, since it is an object that automatically means spells that target creatures cannot target it, because they cannot target objects. If you want to change that in your games, fine, go ahead, more power to you. But don't tell people that they are wrong when RAW this is how it is intended to work.
As for the floating. Again, read the rules.
Manifest Echo(snippet): On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
ANY DIRECTION. Read that again. ANY. DIRECTION. It's a translucent gray image, why WOULD it fall from gravity. Are you really going to say it's going to fall. What if I cast Minor Illusion to create the image of person standing in the air, will that person fall? NO. Because it's an image. And before you come back with "Well if it's an object why doesn't it fall" bullshit, read the above tweet again. It is an image that counts as an object. And if you want further proof. Let me AGAIN redirect you to what Jeremy Crawford has said: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592
yeah he didn't answer the question the poster had witch was, he just gave a vague description not the way it acts in combat A.I. for the for the purpose of attacks and attacking it does it behave like a creature, I mean he could have solved everything by just giving it a stat block, but I will further define why I am right: animate object and bigbys hand, both make objects both can be targeted with spells and other attacks, end of the day: spells can hurt it, area effects can hurt it. everything in that book is so loosely written and poorly defined, worst yet many people on this threat get butt hurt and just repeat themselves like its going to change how the class works and how poorly it preforms, the fact is: I am still not wrong and you guys still don't know the RAW or RAI very well XD
the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter.
Where's the rules on objects? Page 246 and 247 of the DMG. Here, let me copy past a small section of the OFFICIAL DMG RULES ABOUT OBJECTS
Objects and Damage Types. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. You might decide that some damage types are more effective against a particular object or substance than others. For example, bludgeoning damage works well for smashing things but not for cutting through rope or leather. Paper or cloth objects might be vulnerable to fire and lightning damage. A pick can chip away stone but can't effectively cut down a tree. As always, use your best judgment.
What's that first ******* line? IMMUNE to poison and psychic damage. If you are too incompetent to read and understand the rules and know how they work, that doesn't mean other people are making shit up. Also, since it is an object that automatically means spells that target creatures cannot target it, because they cannot target objects. If you want to change that in your games, fine, go ahead, more power to you. But don't tell people that they are wrong when RAW this is how it is intended to work.
As for the floating. Again, read the rules.
Manifest Echo(snippet): On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
ANY DIRECTION. Read that again. ANY. DIRECTION. It's a translucent gray image, why WOULD it fall from gravity. Are you really going to say it's going to fall. What if I cast Minor Illusion to create the image of person standing in the air, will that person fall? NO. Because it's an image. And before you come back with "Well if it's an object why doesn't it fall" bullshit, read the above tweet again. It is an image that counts as an object. And if you want further proof. Let me AGAIN redirect you to what Jeremy Crawford has said: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592
yeah he didn't answer the question the poster had witch was, he just gave a vague description not the way it acts in combat A.I. for the for the purpose of attacks and attacking it does it behave like a creature, I mean he could have solved everything by just giving it a stat block, but I will further define why I am right: animate object and bigbys hand, both make objects both can be targeted with spells and other attacks, end of the day: spells can hurt it, area effects can hurt it. everything in that book is so loosely written and poorly defined, worst yet many people on this threat get butt hurt and just repeat themselves like its going to change how the class works and how poorly it preforms, the fact is: I am still not wrong and you guys still don't know the RAW or RAI very well XD
Because Animate Object makes the Objects into creatures. "Each target animates and becomes a creature under your control until the spell ends or until reduced to 0 hit points."
Echoes are explicitly not creatures.
Bigby's Hand is explicitly stated to be an object, thus follows the same rules as the Echo in terms of being targeted. "The hand is an object that has AC 20 and hit points equal to your hit point maximum. If it drops to 0 hit points, the spell ends. It has a Strength of 26 (+8) and a Dexterity of 10 (+0). The hand doesn't fill its space. When you cast the spell and as a bonus action on your subsequent turns, you can move the hand up to 60 feet and then cause one of the following effects with it."
We can agree the subclass is poorly written, sure, fine. But you're STILL insisting things that are just not applicable, and how things RAW (which I am citing in this very post) prove you wrong.
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the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter.
Where's the rules on objects? Page 246 and 247 of the DMG. Here, let me copy past a small section of the OFFICIAL DMG RULES ABOUT OBJECTS
Objects and Damage Types. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. You might decide that some damage types are more effective against a particular object or substance than others. For example, bludgeoning damage works well for smashing things but not for cutting through rope or leather. Paper or cloth objects might be vulnerable to fire and lightning damage. A pick can chip away stone but can't effectively cut down a tree. As always, use your best judgment.
What's that first ******* line? IMMUNE to poison and psychic damage. If you are too incompetent to read and understand the rules and know how they work, that doesn't mean other people are making shit up. Also, since it is an object that automatically means spells that target creatures cannot target it, because they cannot target objects. If you want to change that in your games, fine, go ahead, more power to you. But don't tell people that they are wrong when RAW this is how it is intended to work.
As for the floating. Again, read the rules.
Manifest Echo(snippet): On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
ANY DIRECTION. Read that again. ANY. DIRECTION. It's a translucent gray image, why WOULD it fall from gravity. Are you really going to say it's going to fall. What if I cast Minor Illusion to create the image of person standing in the air, will that person fall? NO. Because it's an image. And before you come back with "Well if it's an object why doesn't it fall" bullshit, read the above tweet again. It is an image that counts as an object. And if you want further proof. Let me AGAIN redirect you to what Jeremy Crawford has said: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592
yeah he didn't answer the question the poster had witch was, he just gave a vague description not the way it acts in combat A.I. for the for the purpose of attacks and attacking it does it behave like a creature, I mean he could have solved everything by just giving it a stat block, but I will further define why I am right: animate object and bigbys hand, both make objects both can be targeted with spells and other attacks, end of the day: spells can hurt it, area effects can hurt it. everything in that book is so loosely written and poorly defined, worst yet many people on this threat get butt hurt and just repeat themselves like its going to change how the class works and how poorly it preforms, the fact is: I am still not wrong and you guys still don't know the RAW or RAI very well XD
You’re talking about people just repeat themselves. You literally keep doing that, you’re just projecting it on others. There are spells that specifically say you may target a creature or object and spells that say target a creature. This is purposeful. I don’t know how many times that needs to be explained to you.
He did in fact answer the question, at least the one relevant to this debate, which is “is the echo an object?” The answer is yes. It doesn’t have a stat block because it’s not a creature, it’s essentially a martial version of invoke duplicity. It doesn’t attack, you attack from its position like a portal. Does the copy from invoke duplicity cast spells on its own?
Spells can hurt it, just ones that can target or damage creatures. Auras that damage objects can hurt it too, but none of those exist in game right now. You are in fact wrong, because you literally continue to disagree with the lead rules designer. I can’t understand how you’re so insistent on your own interpretation of the rules.
the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter.
Where's the rules on objects? Page 246 and 247 of the DMG. Here, let me copy past a small section of the OFFICIAL DMG RULES ABOUT OBJECTS
Objects and Damage Types. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. You might decide that some damage types are more effective against a particular object or substance than others. For example, bludgeoning damage works well for smashing things but not for cutting through rope or leather. Paper or cloth objects might be vulnerable to fire and lightning damage. A pick can chip away stone but can't effectively cut down a tree. As always, use your best judgment.
What's that first ******* line? IMMUNE to poison and psychic damage. If you are too incompetent to read and understand the rules and know how they work, that doesn't mean other people are making shit up. Also, since it is an object that automatically means spells that target creatures cannot target it, because they cannot target objects. If you want to change that in your games, fine, go ahead, more power to you. But don't tell people that they are wrong when RAW this is how it is intended to work.
As for the floating. Again, read the rules.
Manifest Echo(snippet): On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
ANY DIRECTION. Read that again. ANY. DIRECTION. It's a translucent gray image, why WOULD it fall from gravity. Are you really going to say it's going to fall. What if I cast Minor Illusion to create the image of person standing in the air, will that person fall? NO. Because it's an image. And before you come back with "Well if it's an object why doesn't it fall" bullshit, read the above tweet again. It is an image that counts as an object. And if you want further proof. Let me AGAIN redirect you to what Jeremy Crawford has said: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592
yeah he didn't answer the question the poster had witch was, he just gave a vague description not the way it acts in combat A.I. for the for the purpose of attacks and attacking it does it behave like a creature, I mean he could have solved everything by just giving it a stat block, but I will further define why I am right: animate object and bigbys hand, both make objects both can be targeted with spells and other attacks, end of the day: spells can hurt it, area effects can hurt it. everything in that book is so loosely written and poorly defined, worst yet many people on this threat get butt hurt and just repeat themselves like its going to change how the class works and how poorly it preforms, the fact is: I am still not wrong and you guys still don't know the RAW or RAI very well XD
Ha. You're the one repeating yourself. You've repeatedly said that it can't move vertically, even though it's confirmed that it can.
(Please use a spellchecker. I know you're probably using a phone, but you can still use them there.)
Yes, spells can interact with objects. No one said they can't. Literally no one said that spells cannot affect objects. If you think they did, quote them, and say exactly where they said that.
Spells can interact with objects, if and only if, the spell says it does. Fireball interacts with objects, if and only if they're flammable. There have been no comments on whether or not the Echo is flammable, so I am assuming it isn't, as it is an "image." Holograms (even tangible ones from movies) don't tend to be flammable. Spells can interact with objects if the spell description says they can. Toll of the Dead says it only works on creatures. Sacred Flame only works on creatures. Firebolt can target creatures or objects, so a firebolt could obviously kill an echo, if it hits.
Bigby's hand could work against the echo, but only Clenched Fist. None of the other abilities for Bigby's Hand would work, because they all specify creature.
Animate objects does interact with nonmagical objects (not echoes, they're magical). You can't cast Animate Objects on it, no matter how cool that would be (I'm not saying that you said it could, just saying this for clarification, so don't get butt hurt about me saying that).
Spells can interact with objects. No one said they can't. They can't if the spell description specifies that it only effects "creatures."
Also, they didn't give it a stat block, because they wanted it to be an object. If they wanted it to be a creature, they would've given it a stat block. Also, a stat block would take more ink and pages in the book, so object is actually simpler, even if it needs a few clarifications.
Also, you're still wrong. I literally have exposed your mistakes and misunderstandings many times, (more than I should have to). You're the one that doesn't understand RAW or RAI or Jeremy Crawford's or Matthew Mercer's explanations.
Please stop making crap up.
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You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
This means that you create an object, that can move any direction, and can summon it back as a bonus action indefinitely. This means, it isn't invulnerable, because invulnerable means immune to all damage. They aren't immune to all damage. They're immune to all poison and psychic damage, and all conditions. Do you understand, ProxyJames?
This also combines well with the level 7 ability, where it can be 1,000 feet away, and you can teleport to it expending 15 feet of movement.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This works once each Attack action, so Action Surge, or Haste, or other similar abilities let you use this multiple times a turn. It requires a melee attack, which could be an unarmed strike, if you want to multiclass with monk.
Echo Avatar
7th-level Echo Knight feature
You can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.
This is my favorite ability that the Echo Knights have. You can move the echo 1,000 feet vertically now. And, you can teleport to it while it is 1,000 feet away. Sure, you're blinded and deafened, but if you're smart, you can pull some great tricks with this ability.
Shadow Martyr
10th-level Echo Knight feature
You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
This lets you waste attacks of enemies more effectively. Sure, it destroys it, but you can summon it back as a bonus action immediately after it is destroyed under the right circumstances.
Reclaim Potential
15th-level Echo Knight feature
You’ve learned to absorb the fleeting magic of your echo. When an echo of yours is destroyed by taking damage, you can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to 2d6 + your Constitution modifier, provided you don’t already have temporary hit points.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
You get temporary hit points when the echo dies! Great, this means that whenever you use your level 10 ability, you can gain temporary hit points. Sure, it doesn't work if you already have temporary hit points, but be serious. How often do you actually have temporary hit points?
Legion of One
18th-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to create two echoes with your Manifest Echo feature, and these echoes can coexist. If you try to create a third echo, the previous two echoes are destroyed. Anything you can do from one echo’s position can be done from the other’s instead.
In addition, when you roll initiative and have no uses of your Unleash Incarnation feature left, you regain one use of that feature.
This triples your chances of getting opportunity attacks, and it lets you waste even more enemy attacks. Also, the extra Unleash Incarnations are great. Very useful. I don't usually like initiative recharging abilities, but this is really nice, especially with how often Unleash Incarnation is used up.
This is my analysis of the subclass. Everything I've commented above should be correct.
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How about we do this. ProxyJames, you list something you think that the echo knight can or can't do, and we'll say whether or not that is correct and why. Then we can not get any more giant rant posts that are just us spouting insults.
Just post one thing, 1, that we can agree with and correct, and we can move on that way.
I want to show that the subclass is good without making the conversation personal.
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How about we do this. ProxyJames, you list something you think that the echo knight can or can't do, and we'll say whether or not that is correct and why. Then we can not get any more giant rant posts that are just us spouting insults.
Just post one thing, 1, that we can agree with and correct, and we can move on that way.
I want to show that the subclass is good without making the conversation personal.
Good call, it’ll allow us to break down things one feature at a time without having to do 10+ numbered rebuttals
How about we do this. ProxyJames, you list something you think that the echo knight can or can't do, and we'll say whether or not that is correct and why. Then we can not get any more giant rant posts that are just us spouting insults.
Just post one thing, 1, that we can agree with and correct, and we can move on that way.
I want to show that the subclass is good without making the conversation personal.
Good call, it’ll allow us to break down things one feature at a time without having to do 10+ numbered rebuttals
Yeah, I was getting tired of that. It just made it impossible to keep track of everything that was said with like 3 people responding to one post, and stuff like that.
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Why are you guys even arguing with ProxyJames? You have to realize he’s just trolling you at this point with his poorly spelled walls of text. Even going so far as to argue against overwhelming evidence at times (or so I assume based on LeviRocks’ arguments because I gave up trying to read the posts from ProxyJames).
I think most of us agree the Echo Knight is a very awesome subclass for the fighter (and pretty original in my opinion). I just hope you don’t let the troll give you a heart attack LeviRocks.
Why are you guys even arguing with ProxyJames? You have to realize he’s just trolling you at this point with his poorly spelled walls of text. Even going so far as to argue against overwhelming evidence at times (or so I assume based on LeviRocks’ arguments because I gave up trying to read the posts from ProxyJames).
I think most of us agree the Echo Knight is a very awesome subclass for the fighter (and pretty original in my opinion). I just hope you don’t let the troll give you a heart attack LeviRocks.
I’m honestly not sure if he’s trolling. I was curious and checked his post history. He argues this kind of stuff a lot and seems to have held the same opinions throughout. Some of his older arguments are actually valid and are in the same form, bad spelling and all.
I think most of us agree the Echo Knight is a very awesome subclass for the fighter (and pretty original in my opinion). I just hope you don’t let the troll give you a heart attack LeviRocks.
I don't get hard attacks from people like this, I just make sure that I crush their arguments so they don't spread misinformation on how D&D rules work to other people.
I know that most of us agree it is awesome and useful, just trying to make sure he doesn't persuade others the opposite of this.
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Tonight I ran Cissus Nars, 3rd level Echo Knight, Great Weapon Fighter with Polearm Master.. The rest of the party was a Vengeance paladin and a Kensei Monk. It was a DM Guild adventure for 4 PCs and the DM had, by his own admission, upped the power and numbers of the enemies.
Echo Knights RAWK!
From simple utility like opening a door by sending the Echo through a crack in the wall or teleporting down shafts and waiting with a sigh while the higher Dexterity people shimmied down a rope, to drawing enemy fire a dozen times or more, luring out undead, or the sweet, sweet feeling of a nova round with Action Surge with 2 Unleash Incarnation attacks, a Bonus Action attack AND an Opportunity Attack, this was one of the most fun sessions I’ve had in years.
The action economy was a bit tricky with the PAM bonus attack, but since the Echo is nontrivial to hit and immune to much as an object I only had to resummon every 4 rounds or so, so I still got plenty of bonus attacks in.
The other players were impressed by the Echo Knight’s utility (affectionately calling the Echo Captain Expendable) and cool factor. This class comes fully online right out of the box and looks to get better.
"The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it." A quote straight from Jeremy Crawford, so it looks like you are wrong. Also, you should check out Treantmonk's review of the subclass before being such a negative nancy. See what a creative player can make of this subclass when they aren't hellbent on hating it...
The class looks like the first fighter subclass that I've felt excited to play apart from Battle Master. Make a V. Human with Sentinel, chain mail and glaive to start. Then at level 3 I can have the echo make the OAs and freeze creatures if they hit. Super good. If you hit a flying creature with no hovering, that's a lot of good fall damage too! I love this new direction WotC is trying to go in to give you access to abilities that are core to the class but also aren't limited. Very awesome!
So, everyone besides ProxyJames seems to agree that Echo Knight is a great fighter subclass.
No other fighter subclass can make 13 attacks in a round, all with advantage, even at level 20. (With Action Surge, Unleash Incarnation 3 times, Haste, and a bonus action attack from Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Dual-Wielding, or a Scimitar of Speed.)
So, everyone besides ProxyJames seems to agree that Echo Knight is a great fighter subclass.
No other fighter subclass can make 13 attacks in a round, even at level 20. (With Action Surge, Unleash Incarnation 3 times, Haste, and a bonus action attack from Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Dual-Wielding, or a Scimitar of Speed.)
That's a good combo. I prefer heavy weapons for Great Weapon Master, Great Weapon Fighting, and Polearm Master, but longsword works for tanking and protection.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
yeah he didn't answer the question the poster had witch was, he just gave a vague description not the way it acts in combat A.I. for the for the purpose of attacks and attacking it does it behave like a creature, I mean he could have solved everything by just giving it a stat block, but I will further define why I am right: animate object and bigbys hand, both make objects both can be targeted with spells and other attacks, end of the day: spells can hurt it, area effects can hurt it. everything in that book is so loosely written and poorly defined, worst yet many people on this threat get butt hurt and just repeat themselves like its going to change how the class works and how poorly it preforms, the fact is: I am still not wrong and you guys still don't know the RAW or RAI very well XD
Because Animate Object makes the Objects into creatures. "Each target animates and becomes a creature under your control until the spell ends or until reduced to 0 hit points."
Echoes are explicitly not creatures.
Bigby's Hand is explicitly stated to be an object, thus follows the same rules as the Echo in terms of being targeted. "The hand is an object that has AC 20 and hit points equal to your hit point maximum. If it drops to 0 hit points, the spell ends. It has a Strength of 26 (+8) and a Dexterity of 10 (+0). The hand doesn't fill its space.
When you cast the spell and as a bonus action on your subsequent turns, you can move the hand up to 60 feet and then cause one of the following effects with it."
We can agree the subclass is poorly written, sure, fine. But you're STILL insisting things that are just not applicable, and how things RAW (which I am citing in this very post) prove you wrong.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
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You’re talking about people just repeat themselves. You literally keep doing that, you’re just projecting it on others. There are spells that specifically say you may target a creature or object and spells that say target a creature. This is purposeful. I don’t know how many times that needs to be explained to you.
He did in fact answer the question, at least the one relevant to this debate, which is “is the echo an object?” The answer is yes. It doesn’t have a stat block because it’s not a creature, it’s essentially a martial version of invoke duplicity. It doesn’t attack, you attack from its position like a portal. Does the copy from invoke duplicity cast spells on its own?
Spells can hurt it, just ones that can target or damage creatures. Auras that damage objects can hurt it too, but none of those exist in game right now. You are in fact wrong, because you literally continue to disagree with the lead rules designer. I can’t understand how you’re so insistent on your own interpretation of the rules.
Ha. You're the one repeating yourself. You've repeatedly said that it can't move vertically, even though it's confirmed that it can.
(Please use a spellchecker. I know you're probably using a phone, but you can still use them there.)
Yes, spells can interact with objects. No one said they can't. Literally no one said that spells cannot affect objects. If you think they did, quote them, and say exactly where they said that.
Spells can interact with objects, if and only if, the spell says it does. Fireball interacts with objects, if and only if they're flammable. There have been no comments on whether or not the Echo is flammable, so I am assuming it isn't, as it is an "image." Holograms (even tangible ones from movies) don't tend to be flammable. Spells can interact with objects if the spell description says they can. Toll of the Dead says it only works on creatures. Sacred Flame only works on creatures. Firebolt can target creatures or objects, so a firebolt could obviously kill an echo, if it hits.
Bigby's hand could work against the echo, but only Clenched Fist. None of the other abilities for Bigby's Hand would work, because they all specify creature.
Animate objects does interact with nonmagical objects (not echoes, they're magical). You can't cast Animate Objects on it, no matter how cool that would be (I'm not saying that you said it could, just saying this for clarification, so don't get butt hurt about me saying that).
Spells can interact with objects. No one said they can't. They can't if the spell description specifies that it only effects "creatures."
Also, they didn't give it a stat block, because they wanted it to be an object. If they wanted it to be a creature, they would've given it a stat block. Also, a stat block would take more ink and pages in the book, so object is actually simpler, even if it needs a few clarifications.
Also, you're still wrong. I literally have exposed your mistakes and misunderstandings many times, (more than I should have to). You're the one that doesn't understand RAW or RAI or Jeremy Crawford's or Matthew Mercer's explanations.
Please stop making crap up.
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Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
This means that you create an object, that can move any direction, and can summon it back as a bonus action indefinitely. This means, it isn't invulnerable, because invulnerable means immune to all damage. They aren't immune to all damage. They're immune to all poison and psychic damage, and all conditions. Do you understand, ProxyJames?
This also combines well with the level 7 ability, where it can be 1,000 feet away, and you can teleport to it expending 15 feet of movement.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This works once each Attack action, so Action Surge, or Haste, or other similar abilities let you use this multiple times a turn. It requires a melee attack, which could be an unarmed strike, if you want to multiclass with monk.
Echo Avatar
7th-level Echo Knight feature
You can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.
This is my favorite ability that the Echo Knights have. You can move the echo 1,000 feet vertically now. And, you can teleport to it while it is 1,000 feet away. Sure, you're blinded and deafened, but if you're smart, you can pull some great tricks with this ability.
Shadow Martyr
10th-level Echo Knight feature
You can make your echo throw itself in front of an attack directed at another creature that you can see. Before the attack roll is made, you can use your reaction to teleport the echo to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the targeted creature. The attack roll that triggered the reaction is instead made against your echo.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
This lets you waste attacks of enemies more effectively. Sure, it destroys it, but you can summon it back as a bonus action immediately after it is destroyed under the right circumstances.
Reclaim Potential
15th-level Echo Knight feature
You’ve learned to absorb the fleeting magic of your echo. When an echo of yours is destroyed by taking damage, you can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to 2d6 + your Constitution modifier, provided you don’t already have temporary hit points.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
You get temporary hit points when the echo dies! Great, this means that whenever you use your level 10 ability, you can gain temporary hit points. Sure, it doesn't work if you already have temporary hit points, but be serious. How often do you actually have temporary hit points?
Legion of One
18th-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to create two echoes with your Manifest Echo feature, and these echoes can coexist. If you try to create a third echo, the previous two echoes are destroyed. Anything you can do from one echo’s position can be done from the other’s instead.
In addition, when you roll initiative and have no uses of your Unleash Incarnation feature left, you regain one use of that feature.
This triples your chances of getting opportunity attacks, and it lets you waste even more enemy attacks. Also, the extra Unleash Incarnations are great. Very useful. I don't usually like initiative recharging abilities, but this is really nice, especially with how often Unleash Incarnation is used up.
This is my analysis of the subclass. Everything I've commented above should be correct.
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Thanks for the reminder, Sorce. It was getting unnecessarily hostile.
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How about we do this. ProxyJames, you list something you think that the echo knight can or can't do, and we'll say whether or not that is correct and why. Then we can not get any more giant rant posts that are just us spouting insults.
Just post one thing, 1, that we can agree with and correct, and we can move on that way.
I want to show that the subclass is good without making the conversation personal.
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Good call, it’ll allow us to break down things one feature at a time without having to do 10+ numbered rebuttals
Yeah, I was getting tired of that. It just made it impossible to keep track of everything that was said with like 3 people responding to one post, and stuff like that.
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Why are you guys even arguing with ProxyJames? You have to realize he’s just trolling you at this point with his poorly spelled walls of text. Even going so far as to argue against overwhelming evidence at times (or so I assume based on LeviRocks’ arguments because I gave up trying to read the posts from ProxyJames).
I think most of us agree the Echo Knight is a very awesome subclass for the fighter (and pretty original in my opinion). I just hope you don’t let the troll give you a heart attack LeviRocks.
I’m honestly not sure if he’s trolling. I was curious and checked his post history. He argues this kind of stuff a lot and seems to have held the same opinions throughout. Some of his older arguments are actually valid and are in the same form, bad spelling and all.
I don't get hard attacks from people like this, I just make sure that I crush their arguments so they don't spread misinformation on how D&D rules work to other people.
I know that most of us agree it is awesome and useful, just trying to make sure he doesn't persuade others the opposite of this.
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Tonight I ran Cissus Nars, 3rd level Echo Knight, Great Weapon Fighter with Polearm Master.. The rest of the party was a Vengeance paladin and a Kensei Monk. It was a DM Guild adventure for 4 PCs and the DM had, by his own admission, upped the power and numbers of the enemies.
Echo Knights RAWK!
From simple utility like opening a door by sending the Echo through a crack in the wall or teleporting down shafts and waiting with a sigh while the higher Dexterity people shimmied down a rope, to drawing enemy fire a dozen times or more, luring out undead, or the sweet, sweet feeling of a nova round with Action Surge with 2 Unleash Incarnation attacks, a Bonus Action attack AND an Opportunity Attack, this was one of the most fun sessions I’ve had in years.
The action economy was a bit tricky with the PAM bonus attack, but since the Echo is nontrivial to hit and immune to much as an object I only had to resummon every 4 rounds or so, so I still got plenty of bonus attacks in.
The other players were impressed by the Echo Knight’s utility (affectionately calling the Echo Captain Expendable) and cool factor. This class comes fully online right out of the box and looks to get better.
"The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it." A quote straight from Jeremy Crawford, so it looks like you are wrong. Also, you should check out Treantmonk's review of the subclass before being such a negative nancy. See what a creative player can make of this subclass when they aren't hellbent on hating it...
The class looks like the first fighter subclass that I've felt excited to play apart from Battle Master. Make a V. Human with Sentinel, chain mail and glaive to start. Then at level 3 I can have the echo make the OAs and freeze creatures if they hit. Super good. If you hit a flying creature with no hovering, that's a lot of good fall damage too! I love this new direction WotC is trying to go in to give you access to abilities that are core to the class but also aren't limited. Very awesome!
So, everyone besides ProxyJames seems to agree that Echo Knight is a great fighter subclass.
No other fighter subclass can make 13 attacks in a round, all with advantage, even at level 20. (With Action Surge, Unleash Incarnation 3 times, Haste, and a bonus action attack from Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Dual-Wielding, or a Scimitar of Speed.)
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Incorrect!
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/eflch2/fun_fact_a_level_20_samurai_can_potentially_make/
Sorry, I'll correct my post to make it actually correct.
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