You seem to have a very linear line of thought on what is "good" about a subclass. Versatility is the name of the game for the Echo Knight. Fighters are arguably the most customizable class already and having a subclass that increases your effective range, mobility and survivability and minor support in combat while also giving scouting capabilities out of combat is great! Stat investment is a non-issue because Fighters generally want high constitution anyway, but wherever the subclass is lacking can be made up for or mitigated with Feats or magic items.
Playing as an Echo Knight can make you a constant presence that can't be ignored. Who cares if my Echo only has one hit point when any attack against it is one NOT made on my friends? Don't have a wizard in your party or they dont have the "Find Familiar" spell? My Avatar can cover that role and at a greater distance and better AC. And even when the limited resources are burned out for the day, I will always have my Echo available. Subclasses like Battle Master need Short Rests just be useful in one aspect of D&D and those aren't even guaranteed. The Echo Knight is just fun to play and RP and that to me makes for a good subclass.
You seem to have a very linear line of thought on what is "good" about a subclass. Versatility is the name of the game for the Echo Knight. Fighters are arguably the most customizable class already and having a subclass that increases your effective range, mobility and survivability and minor support in combat while also giving scouting capabilities out of combat is great! Stat investment is a non-issue because Fighters generally want high constitution anyway, but wherever the subclass is lacking can be made up for or mitigated with Feats or magic items.
Playing as an Echo Knight can make you a constant presence that can't be ignored. Who cares if my Echo only has one hit point when any attack against it is one NOT made on my friends? Don't have a wizard in your party or they dont have the "Find Familiar" spell? My Avatar can cover that role and at a greater distance and better AC. And even when the limited resources are burned out for the day, I will always have my Echo available. Subclasses like Battle Master need Short Rests just be useful in one aspect of D&D and those aren't even guaranteed. The Echo Knight is just fun to play and RP and that to me makes for a good subclass.
so the echo is not as good as a familiar, because first off the familiar has its own turn, if you use the owl statblock (as a DM I let my players use whatever statblock they want with there familiar because they want flavor but will always use the owl) it has flyby so every round you give one player advantage on a attack role, it also has 120 feet of darkvision and can scout way ahead and not be noticed, as where a faintly glowing version of yourself blends in with nothing and sticks out like a sore thumb, further more the familiar has no max range, while you need it to be within 100 feet of you for actions such as seeing though its eyes or spell stuff, the familiar can scout MILES ahead of you and because it is a creature second off this subclass take away alot of the fighters versatility: it only works with melee attacks, only works within 30 feet of you and has intelligence (it can be a beast but it can also be celestial, fey, or fiend) and share information, the avatar feature only works when you are within 1000 feet of you and when you stop using its avatar form it poofs.
the echo knight removes much of the fighters versatility and I have said this before: the echo abilities are based off your con so much of the game your going to only have 3 chargers that come back on a LONG rest after that your a normal fighter the echo lets you cover slightly more ground most of the time but is very fragile, if your fighting any enemies with intelligence (like a pack of goblins or kobolds) they will have some hold back with a bow and shot at it when you summon it the echo only works with melee weapons the avatar does not work the way people think it works. the way it works is first off you have to make yourself BLIND and DEAF, then you can control and move it around to up to 1000 feet, if at any point you brake the link it becomes a normal echo and if it is more than 30 feet away it vanishes because the normal echo can't be more than 30 feet from you, in theory you can make it attack with your weapon but it has very low AC and HP at best you can ambush some stuff but to what end other than making the DM work alot harder and giving everything your attacking a chance to run away because your avatar works by most of the same rules as the echo meaning it can only move 30 feet at a time, it has also been confirmed that you can only switch places when its a echo, when its a avatar you can't. it can't hold or use items it has very limited use because its based off con (going based on the fact that most DMs use point buy and players will most of the time use there ASIs for there attack score because a +1 to hit and to damage is more important than extra HP because after 16 con you can just pick up the tough feat and its the equivalent of having 20 con without investing 2 ASIs into it) to sum up you get something that has very limited use and gives you one extra attack and needs long rests to work right, if you want to be a better version of this make your fighting anything but echo knight, make your main ability score dex, pick the two weapon fighting, fighting style and use two of your many ASIs to pick up the dual wielder and mobile feats, now you get your one extra attack and you can bounce around the battle field with no restrictions and if something tries to run you can use a longbow.
Feels like thats a lot of work to just get one attack as a bonus action that has ability modifier added to damage, Proxy. I'd just use polearm master or a DB scimitar if I really wanted it. Id argue the echo also let's you bounce around the field as it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Just teleport swap. The fact it can move any direction and Spawn anywhere you can see means next to no environment hazards can contain you. Prison breaks are a joke when you can just teleport out the window. I'm currently playing a Warforged Echo Knight Archaeologist with a bag of Holding full of tools, and let me just say my pure mobility, utility, and combat tactics in a 1v1 has made me fall in love with this subclass. Why is it only numbers and attacks with your thinking?
You seem to have a very linear line of thought on what is "good" about a subclass. Versatility is the name of the game for the Echo Knight. Fighters are arguably the most customizable class already and having a subclass that increases your effective range, mobility and survivability and minor support in combat while also giving scouting capabilities out of combat is great! Stat investment is a non-issue because Fighters generally want high constitution anyway, but wherever the subclass is lacking can be made up for or mitigated with Feats or magic items.
Playing as an Echo Knight can make you a constant presence that can't be ignored. Who cares if my Echo only has one hit point when any attack against it is one NOT made on my friends? Don't have a wizard in your party or they dont have the "Find Familiar" spell? My Avatar can cover that role and at a greater distance and better AC. And even when the limited resources are burned out for the day, I will always have my Echo available. Subclasses like Battle Master need Short Rests just be useful in one aspect of D&D and those aren't even guaranteed. The Echo Knight is just fun to play and RP and that to me makes for a good subclass.
the echo knight removes much of the fighters versatility and I have said this before: It gives more versatility than it removes. the echo abilities are based off your con so much of the game your going to only have 3 chargers that come back on a LONG rest after that your a normal fighter This is balanced and a good ability. It lets you attack more than other fighters at this level. the echo lets you cover slightly more ground most of the time but is very fragile, if your fighting any enemies with intelligence (like a pack of goblins or kobolds) they will have some hold back with a bow and shot at it when you summon it Why would they do this? How would they know that you're an echo knight, or what an echo is? This sounds a lot like the DM just punishing the characters for choosing this subclass. the echo only works with melee weapons Incorrect. Unleash Incarnation only works with melee weapon attacks, but any attack as part of your Attack action can be ranged. the avatar does not work the way people think it works. the way it works is first off you have to make yourself BLIND and DEAF, then you can control and move it around to up to 1000 feet, if at any point you brake the link it becomes a normal echo and if it is more than 30 feet away it vanishes because the normal echo can't be more than 30 feet from you, in theory you can make it attack with your weapon but it has very low AC and HP at best you can ambush some stuff but to what end other than making the DM work alot harder and giving everything your attacking a chance to run away because your avatar works by most of the same rules as the echo meaning it can only move 30 feet at a time, it has also been confirmed that you can only switch places when its a echo, when its a avatar you can't. RAW, you can teleport and attack when you are seeing through its position. This is not RAI, but is still legal. Only stupid people would leave themselves blind and deaf and alone. You won't be ambushed and killed if you have allies with you watching yourself as you are blind and deaf. Stop assuming people are stupid. it can't hold or use items It really does not need to. it has very limited use because its based off con (going based on the fact that most DMs use point buy and players will most of the time use there ASIs for there attack score because a +1 to hit and to damage is more important than extra HP because after 16 con you can just pick up the tough feat and its the equivalent of having 20 con without investing 2 ASIs into it) Why would anyone do this if they're an echo knight? Constitution is one of the most useful ability scores in the game. Literally everyone gives themselves a bonus to it, if they can. Every other fighter in the game has limited uses. Eldritch Knights have only 2 spell slots at the same level, and they're less useful than Unleash Incarnation. to sum up you get something that has very limited use and gives you one extra attack and needs long rests to work right, if you want to be a better version of this make your fighting anything but echo knight, make your main ability score dex, pick the two weapon fighting, fighting style and use two of your many ASIs to pick up the dual wielder and mobile feats, now you get your one extra attack and you can bounce around the battle field with no restrictions and if something tries to run you can use a longbow.
To sum up, literally everything you just said is irrelevant or incorrect. Stop spreading misinformation, please.
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Hi Levi and Proxy. Is it really worth continuing this argument/debate? If I recall, this has been a long running and "heated" discussion. And it sounds like the same statements are getting repeated. Every campaign is different. And more importantly, each person is entitled to their own opinion on how effective or not the class is.
Hi Levi and Proxy. Is it really worth continuing this argument/debate? If I recall, this has been a long running and "heated" discussion. And it sounds like the same statements are getting repeated. Every campaign is different. And more importantly, each person is entitled to their own opinion on how effective or not the class is.
Respectfully, I will say that I'm not dropping this matter until ProxyJames has. I have explained the rules on multiple occasions, and have vowed to correct any false statements about the subclass in this thread. This isn't a matter of opinion or different campaigns here, it's a matter of RAW.
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Hi Levi and Proxy. Is it really worth continuing this argument/debate? If I recall, this has been a long running and "heated" discussion. And it sounds like the same statements are getting repeated. Every campaign is different. And more importantly, each person is entitled to their own opinion on how effective or not the class is.
Respectfully, I will say that I'm not dropping this matter until ProxyJames has. I have explained the rules on multiple occasions, and have vowed to correct any false statements about the subclass in this thread. This isn't a matter of opinion or different campaigns here, it's a matter of RAW.
I'd second that. I've been on this thread basically since this debate began, and it seems less of an argument over opinion and more of one over RAW. Proxy has repeatedly stated false information or misinterpretations of the rules and has not stated it is his own home ruling version, implying he believes it's the mainstream rules for D&D. While it should remain civil, this argument doesn't warrant ending quite yet.
ok so in the argument I have tried to only state facts, some of witch were reworded with various tweets like this one https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/03/27/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/ but the core of the fact boils down to this: all the wording with echo knight is poorly written and not well though out, a fighter two weapon fighting or using corssbow expert using a hand crossbow gets just as many attacks. people are trying to make out this subclass as something that can move anywhere they want with complete freedom that leaves them and the echo in 0 danger and this is not true. the echo is VERY vulnerable and yes jeremy has said it is a "targetable object" but every object in D&D can be targeted, doors have AC and HP pools and can be hurt with spells and many spells have clauses for objects like shatter and there are other things very much like it, unseen servant, bigbys hand and so on. lastly players forget they only have ONE action and ONE bonus action, most of the time as a fighter you want to be on the front line and your going to rarely use the swap feature, I have a fighter in a game I run who is a shardar kai elf and he rarely even uses his teleport feature because in most combats it puts them in more danger (because they can get surrounded) and leaves others vulnerable to attacks. on top of that people are not taking into account that most of the WoTC content is level 1 to level 10 maybe, some dip over this but very few go to higher levels, so maybe if your rolling for your ability scores you get lucky and roll some 18s so you can maybe get a +4 in your con but otherwise your going to be sitting around 16 con and maybe get some magic items that will give you a +1, on top of that MOST of the advantage you get fun running the echo knight depends on a evenly paired up combat (even number of friendly and hostile combatants) but this is a VERY rare event, most encounters to balance out the game will weight the action economy ageist the player, forcing them to dip into there combat resources and take short rests and replenish them, fighters main attraction is most subclass features come back on a short rest so they can be the driving force when resources are low to keep the group safe and be able to deal high amounts of damage, once echo knight uses up the extra attacks they become a pretty basic fighter, as where other fighters can keep going (and if you want that one extra attack and are using two weapon fighting and can keep going with that extra attack) they keep falling further and further behind, there reactions to block one attacks don't really count for much when your dealing with larger numbers of creature because it goes like this: DM: ok the goblin its attacking you with a short sword and it hits. player: I use my reaction and my echo takes the hit. DM: ok...now the other 4 goblins attack you. at the end of the day all its really good for is swaping with it to get to otherwise high ground you can't get to or a quick reposition to impose flanking when you otherwise could not. its one of the things that when its on paper it looks good but in practice it just ends up being bad, I can see a player using it and then getting board because they used up all there extra attacks and all its good for is movement and they are just sitting there like: why didn't I make a monk? I stand by everything I said: echo knight is not good, I get why people want it to be, but its not and it boils down to being some fan content that not great. I am going to drop this thread because people keep repeating themselves thinking that I will say something different and its just pointing out more and more flaws in the echo knight.
About 90% of the post above is your opinion, and I can't argue with an opinion or play style. Maybe you should clarify. You don't like the Echo Knight. You don't like its playstyle. You think that if you want to do the things that echo knights do, you should just play a different character. I get that. That's all your opinion. I can't refute that anymore than you can refute the fact that I hate avocados.
But, when you say "I stand by everything I said" that's where I have an issue. I could fill a whole page with posts quoting your posts, showing every single false statement you made in the thread. You argued against having them float, argued against their immunity to fireball as far as we know, and argued against many other features trying to make them useless.
The fact of the matter is, that's your opinion. You finally admitted that all of that is your opinion, whereas before you were saying your rulings and thoughts on the subclass were completely RAW. If you think the subclass sucks, fine. I've spent nearly 9 pages trying to convince you and others that it's good. But, don't make false statements. I won't argue against your opinions as long as they don't make any claims on the rules. If you say something about the rules of the class that is wrong, I will correct you. That's just how the world is. You say incorrect crap, you get corrected.
Deal?
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ANY dm that allows an Echo Knight in their campaign is a masochist. I certainly would not... Any class that requires this many clarifications was not that well thought IMO.
It also appears very powerful In effect allowing a melee based character ranged attacks with minimal risk to itself...ultimately re spawning if the enemy is going to waste actions against it..ignore it and it can get an opportunity attack......wow...yes this is powerful.
ANY dm that allows an Echo Knight in their campaign is a masochist. I certainly would not... Any class that requires this many clarifications was not that well thought IMO.
It also appears very powerful In effect allowing a melee based character ranged attacks with minimal risk to itself...ultimately re spawning if the enemy is going to waste actions against it..ignore it and it can get an opportunity attack......wow...yes this is powerful.
But it's still in-line with the wide versatility that fighters get, and honestly, the only really hard part is mucking through the poorly written rules to get to the heart of what it can and cannot do...
luckily, we have LeviRocks.
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Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
ANY dm that allows an Echo Knight in their campaign is a masochist. I certainly would not... Any class that requires this many clarifications was not that well thought IMO.
It also appears very powerful In effect allowing a melee based character ranged attacks with minimal risk to itself...ultimately re spawning if the enemy is going to waste actions against it..ignore it and it can get an opportunity attack......wow...yes this is powerful.
Part of the frustration people have been expressing here is that it doesn't require all of this clarification. If you read the class features and follow them RAW, yes there are a couple small areas about if you could swap while the echo is 1000ft away or not, but overall they operate as they are written.
However, people then either jump to conclusions or just don't read the actual text and start saying how it's not clear or broken. People like Levi are just trying to focus on the facts and he even says there are some improvements that could be made just like Treantmonk and others have said as well.
I apologize if this has been asked already, but I couldn't find it.
Manifest Echo says "As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you."
If I am prone when I use the teleport ability would I be able to automatically count as standing? I realize that this might seem like its irrelevant as the ability takes 15 feet of movement, and for the standard character standing also takes 15 feet of movement, but it would matter if the character has the mobile feet or is multiclassed into Monk or Barbarian.
I apologize if this has been asked already, but I couldn't find it.
Manifest Echo says "As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you."
If I am prone when I use the teleport ability would I be able to automatically count as standing? I realize that this might seem like its irrelevant as the ability takes 15 feet of movement, and for the standard character standing also takes 15 feet of movement, but it would matter if the character has the mobile feet or is multiclassed into Monk or Barbarian.
You would not be standing, but you would teleport.
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Is this guy seriously saying that his ruling is more official than Jeremy Crawford's? Cause I don't know how much clearer it can be when the guy who handles the rules says it is treated as an object, NOT a creature. Like, that's it. You don't pass Go. You don't collect two hundred dollars. You lose. Good day.
My only gripe with the Echo Knight is I wish Unleash Incarnation allowed me to make ranged attacks. My archer doesn't get to make Attacks of Opportunity ever so her reaction action is often unused. I wish I could make a ranged AoO, even if it's still provoked by someone entering and leaving my archer's melee radius.
My only gripe with the Echo Knight is I wish Unleash Incarnation allowed me to make ranged attacks. My archer doesn't get to make Attacks of Opportunity ever so her reaction action is often unused. I wish I could make a ranged AoO, even if it's still provoked by someone entering and leaving my archer's melee radius.
I agree. I would have preferred if they could make ranged attacks as well.
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I can already tell you all firsthand how useful the Echo Knight is:
Sunday night in the campaign that my wife and I play, the party got ambushed by a stone giant. We're escorting a caravan and unfortunately, the giant got the drop on us - particularly me as it hurled a rock right at my character and took it out in one hit. Damn squishy mages. Anyway, my wife is the Echo Knight and she used a bonus action to spring up her Echo right beside the giant. So what did the giant do..? It swung at this new target.. and it missed its first attack. With its second, it squashed her echo.
So with a SINGLE Bonus Action, my wife was able to get this Stone Giant to use both of its Attack swings on the Echo that she can just resummon next turn. Meanwhile, we were able to swarm the damn thing after that but the point is, you can NEVER underestimate battlefield control. Even in a dungeon, if an Echo Knight pops up the Echo in front of a doorway to help block it off, that's a huge help. This thing is an amazing feature without being absolutely broken.
I suspect that this subclass will become a fairly popular dip. The mobility mixed in with a bit of nova potential would be very welcome for rogues, rangers and maybe hexblades.
yeah, I'm currently playing a hexblade and planning to dip into echo knight.
I suspect that this subclass will become a fairly popular dip. The mobility mixed in with a bit of nova potential would be very welcome for rogues, rangers and maybe hexblades.
yeah, I'm currently playing a hexblade and planning to dip into echo knight.
I'm playing a Ranger (Horizon Walker) and planning to multiclass as Fighter (Echo Knight). I expect to be mostly Echo Knight though.
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You seem to have a very linear line of thought on what is "good" about a subclass. Versatility is the name of the game for the Echo Knight. Fighters are arguably the most customizable class already and having a subclass that increases your effective range, mobility and survivability and minor support in combat while also giving scouting capabilities out of combat is great! Stat investment is a non-issue because Fighters generally want high constitution anyway, but wherever the subclass is lacking can be made up for or mitigated with Feats or magic items.
Playing as an Echo Knight can make you a constant presence that can't be ignored. Who cares if my Echo only has one hit point when any attack against it is one NOT made on my friends? Don't have a wizard in your party or they dont have the "Find Familiar" spell? My Avatar can cover that role and at a greater distance and better AC. And even when the limited resources are burned out for the day, I will always have my Echo available. Subclasses like Battle Master need Short Rests just be useful in one aspect of D&D and those aren't even guaranteed. The Echo Knight is just fun to play and RP and that to me makes for a good subclass.
so the echo is not as good as a familiar, because first off the familiar has its own turn, if you use the owl statblock (as a DM I let my players use whatever statblock they want with there familiar because they want flavor but will always use the owl) it has flyby so every round you give one player advantage on a attack role, it also has 120 feet of darkvision and can scout way ahead and not be noticed, as where a faintly glowing version of yourself blends in with nothing and sticks out like a sore thumb, further more the familiar has no max range, while you need it to be within 100 feet of you for actions such as seeing though its eyes or spell stuff, the familiar can scout MILES ahead of you and because it is a creature
second off this subclass take away alot of the fighters versatility: it only works with melee attacks, only works within 30 feet of you and has intelligence (it can be a beast but it can also be celestial, fey, or fiend) and share information, the avatar feature only works when you are within 1000 feet of you and when you stop using its avatar form it poofs.
the echo knight removes much of the fighters versatility and I have said this before:
the echo abilities are based off your con so much of the game your going to only have 3 chargers that come back on a LONG rest after that your a normal fighter
the echo lets you cover slightly more ground most of the time but is very fragile, if your fighting any enemies with intelligence (like a pack of goblins or kobolds) they will have some hold back with a bow and shot at it when you summon it
the echo only works with melee weapons
the avatar does not work the way people think it works. the way it works is first off you have to make yourself BLIND and DEAF, then you can control and move it around to up to 1000 feet, if at any point you brake the link it becomes a normal echo and if it is more than 30 feet away it vanishes because the normal echo can't be more than 30 feet from you, in theory you can make it attack with your weapon but it has very low AC and HP at best you can ambush some stuff but to what end other than making the DM work alot harder and giving everything your attacking a chance to run away because your avatar works by most of the same rules as the echo meaning it can only move 30 feet at a time, it has also been confirmed that you can only switch places when its a echo, when its a avatar you can't.
it can't hold or use items
it has very limited use because its based off con (going based on the fact that most DMs use point buy and players will most of the time use there ASIs for there attack score because a +1 to hit and to damage is more important than extra HP because after 16 con you can just pick up the tough feat and its the equivalent of having 20 con without investing 2 ASIs into it)
to sum up you get something that has very limited use and gives you one extra attack and needs long rests to work right, if you want to be a better version of this make your fighting anything but echo knight, make your main ability score dex, pick the two weapon fighting, fighting style and use two of your many ASIs to pick up the dual wielder and mobile feats, now you get your one extra attack and you can bounce around the battle field with no restrictions and if something tries to run you can use a longbow.
Feels like thats a lot of work to just get one attack as a bonus action that has ability modifier added to damage, Proxy. I'd just use polearm master or a DB scimitar if I really wanted it. Id argue the echo also let's you bounce around the field as it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Just teleport swap. The fact it can move any direction and Spawn anywhere you can see means next to no environment hazards can contain you. Prison breaks are a joke when you can just teleport out the window. I'm currently playing a Warforged Echo Knight Archaeologist with a bag of Holding full of tools, and let me just say my pure mobility, utility, and combat tactics in a 1v1 has made me fall in love with this subclass. Why is it only numbers and attacks with your thinking?
Reasons why the Echo Knight is better than a Familiar:
This is just 11 examples. I could list more.
(Been almost 2 months since you last posted, Proxy? Waiting for anything in particular?)
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Hi Levi and Proxy. Is it really worth continuing this argument/debate? If I recall, this has been a long running and "heated" discussion. And it sounds like the same statements are getting repeated. Every campaign is different. And more importantly, each person is entitled to their own opinion on how effective or not the class is.
Respectfully, I will say that I'm not dropping this matter until ProxyJames has. I have explained the rules on multiple occasions, and have vowed to correct any false statements about the subclass in this thread. This isn't a matter of opinion or different campaigns here, it's a matter of RAW.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'd second that. I've been on this thread basically since this debate began, and it seems less of an argument over opinion and more of one over RAW. Proxy has repeatedly stated false information or misinterpretations of the rules and has not stated it is his own home ruling version, implying he believes it's the mainstream rules for D&D. While it should remain civil, this argument doesn't warrant ending quite yet.
ok so in the argument I have tried to only state facts, some of witch were reworded with various tweets like this one https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/03/27/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/ but the core of the fact boils down to this: all the wording with echo knight is poorly written and not well though out, a fighter two weapon fighting or using corssbow expert using a hand crossbow gets just as many attacks. people are trying to make out this subclass as something that can move anywhere they want with complete freedom that leaves them and the echo in 0 danger and this is not true. the echo is VERY vulnerable and yes jeremy has said it is a "targetable object" but every object in D&D can be targeted, doors have AC and HP pools and can be hurt with spells and many spells have clauses for objects like shatter and there are other things very much like it, unseen servant, bigbys hand and so on. lastly players forget they only have ONE action and ONE bonus action, most of the time as a fighter you want to be on the front line and your going to rarely use the swap feature, I have a fighter in a game I run who is a shardar kai elf and he rarely even uses his teleport feature because in most combats it puts them in more danger (because they can get surrounded) and leaves others vulnerable to attacks.
on top of that people are not taking into account that most of the WoTC content is level 1 to level 10 maybe, some dip over this but very few go to higher levels, so maybe if your rolling for your ability scores you get lucky and roll some 18s so you can maybe get a +4 in your con but otherwise your going to be sitting around 16 con and maybe get some magic items that will give you a +1, on top of that MOST of the advantage you get fun running the echo knight depends on a evenly paired up combat (even number of friendly and hostile combatants) but this is a VERY rare event, most encounters to balance out the game will weight the action economy ageist the player, forcing them to dip into there combat resources and take short rests and replenish them, fighters main attraction is most subclass features come back on a short rest so they can be the driving force when resources are low to keep the group safe and be able to deal high amounts of damage, once echo knight uses up the extra attacks they become a pretty basic fighter, as where other fighters can keep going (and if you want that one extra attack and are using two weapon fighting and can keep going with that extra attack) they keep falling further and further behind, there reactions to block one attacks don't really count for much when your dealing with larger numbers of creature because it goes like this: DM: ok the goblin its attacking you with a short sword and it hits. player: I use my reaction and my echo takes the hit. DM: ok...now the other 4 goblins attack you.
at the end of the day all its really good for is swaping with it to get to otherwise high ground you can't get to or a quick reposition to impose flanking when you otherwise could not. its one of the things that when its on paper it looks good but in practice it just ends up being bad, I can see a player using it and then getting board because they used up all there extra attacks and all its good for is movement and they are just sitting there like: why didn't I make a monk?
I stand by everything I said: echo knight is not good, I get why people want it to be, but its not and it boils down to being some fan content that not great. I am going to drop this thread because people keep repeating themselves thinking that I will say something different and its just pointing out more and more flaws in the echo knight.
The echo knight has its wording issues, yes. I've created a whole thread based on how Explorer's Guide to Wildemount's content should've been playtested: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/66453-this-is-why-you-put-subclasses-and-spells-in
About 90% of the post above is your opinion, and I can't argue with an opinion or play style. Maybe you should clarify. You don't like the Echo Knight. You don't like its playstyle. You think that if you want to do the things that echo knights do, you should just play a different character. I get that. That's all your opinion. I can't refute that anymore than you can refute the fact that I hate avocados.
But, when you say "I stand by everything I said" that's where I have an issue. I could fill a whole page with posts quoting your posts, showing every single false statement you made in the thread. You argued against having them float, argued against their immunity to fireball as far as we know, and argued against many other features trying to make them useless.
The fact of the matter is, that's your opinion. You finally admitted that all of that is your opinion, whereas before you were saying your rulings and thoughts on the subclass were completely RAW. If you think the subclass sucks, fine. I've spent nearly 9 pages trying to convince you and others that it's good. But, don't make false statements. I won't argue against your opinions as long as they don't make any claims on the rules. If you say something about the rules of the class that is wrong, I will correct you. That's just how the world is. You say incorrect crap, you get corrected.
Deal?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
ANY dm that allows an Echo Knight in their campaign is a masochist. I certainly would not... Any class that requires this many clarifications was not that well thought IMO.
It also appears very powerful In effect allowing a melee based character ranged attacks with minimal risk to itself...ultimately re spawning if the enemy is going to waste actions against it..ignore it and it can get an opportunity attack......wow...yes this is powerful.
But it's still in-line with the wide versatility that fighters get, and honestly, the only really hard part is mucking through the poorly written rules to get to the heart of what it can and cannot do...
luckily, we have LeviRocks.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Part of the frustration people have been expressing here is that it doesn't require all of this clarification. If you read the class features and follow them RAW, yes there are a couple small areas about if you could swap while the echo is 1000ft away or not, but overall they operate as they are written.
However, people then either jump to conclusions or just don't read the actual text and start saying how it's not clear or broken. People like Levi are just trying to focus on the facts and he even says there are some improvements that could be made just like Treantmonk and others have said as well.
I apologize if this has been asked already, but I couldn't find it.
Manifest Echo says "As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you."
If I am prone when I use the teleport ability would I be able to automatically count as standing? I realize that this might seem like its irrelevant as the ability takes 15 feet of movement, and for the standard character standing also takes 15 feet of movement, but it would matter if the character has the mobile feet or is multiclassed into Monk or Barbarian.
You would not be standing, but you would teleport.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Is this guy seriously saying that his ruling is more official than Jeremy Crawford's? Cause I don't know how much clearer it can be when the guy who handles the rules says it is treated as an object, NOT a creature. Like, that's it. You don't pass Go. You don't collect two hundred dollars. You lose. Good day.
My only gripe with the Echo Knight is I wish Unleash Incarnation allowed me to make ranged attacks. My archer doesn't get to make Attacks of Opportunity ever so her reaction action is often unused. I wish I could make a ranged AoO, even if it's still provoked by someone entering and leaving my archer's melee radius.
I agree. I would have preferred if they could make ranged attacks as well.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I can already tell you all firsthand how useful the Echo Knight is:
Sunday night in the campaign that my wife and I play, the party got ambushed by a stone giant. We're escorting a caravan and unfortunately, the giant got the drop on us - particularly me as it hurled a rock right at my character and took it out in one hit. Damn squishy mages. Anyway, my wife is the Echo Knight and she used a bonus action to spring up her Echo right beside the giant. So what did the giant do..? It swung at this new target.. and it missed its first attack. With its second, it squashed her echo.
So with a SINGLE Bonus Action, my wife was able to get this Stone Giant to use both of its Attack swings on the Echo that she can just resummon next turn. Meanwhile, we were able to swarm the damn thing after that but the point is, you can NEVER underestimate battlefield control. Even in a dungeon, if an Echo Knight pops up the Echo in front of a doorway to help block it off, that's a huge help. This thing is an amazing feature without being absolutely broken.
yeah, I'm currently playing a hexblade and planning to dip into echo knight.
I'm playing a Ranger (Horizon Walker) and planning to multiclass as Fighter (Echo Knight). I expect to be mostly Echo Knight though.