Hey all! This is my first comment on the sight ever.
We're about to start a new campaign and i was thinking of doing an Echo Knight because they sound so interesting and fun.
I really enjoyed reading through a bunch of this and @Fishapod_, I plan on reading your other post about the Echo Knight. Third_Sundering, I appreciated your insights as well.
Also, that one guy was really annoying. Hope he found a character class that makes him happy.
Cheers to the rest of you!
Welcome to the thread! Echo Knights are fun and interesting. I would recommend checking out this thread for what is legal RAW and what isn't.
I'm glad you liked our debating/bickering.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Hey all! This is my first comment on the sight ever.
We're about to start a new campaign and i was thinking of doing an Echo Knight because they sound so interesting and fun.
I really enjoyed reading through a bunch of this and @Fishapod_, I plan on reading your other post about the Echo Knight. Third_Sundering, I appreciated your insights as well.
Also, that one guy was really annoying. Hope he found a character class that makes him happy.
Cheers to the rest of you!
Glad to hear you enjoyed our bickering! I haven’t checked back on my guide in a while, there may still be some incorrect information. Echo Knights are a bit complex because it’s a whole lot of figuring out what the wording allows you to do, so I may have made a few mistakes or left out a tactic or two. I highly recommend the subclass, if you enjoy using tactics and positioning to bring down your foes, you’ll really love the echo knight. They’re easily a contender for strongest fighter subclass.
Oh man, and then I have an obvious typo in my first sentence (site/sight).
Anyways, one quick follow-up... any particular race or races that are fun to combine with the Echo Knight?
Hey all! This is my first comment on the sight ever.
We're about to start a new campaign and i was thinking of doing an Echo Knight because they sound so interesting and fun.
I really enjoyed reading through a bunch of this and @Fishapod_, I plan on reading your other post about the Echo Knight. Third_Sundering, I appreciated your insights as well.
Also, that one guy was really annoying. Hope he found a character class that makes him happy.
Cheers to the rest of you!
Glad to hear you enjoyed our bickering! I haven’t checked back on my guide in a while, there may still be some incorrect information. Echo Knights are a bit complex because it’s a whole lot of figuring out what the wording allows you to do, so I may have made a few mistakes or left out a tactic or two. I highly recommend the subclass, if you enjoy using tactics and positioning to bring down your foes, you’ll really love the echo knight. They’re easily a contender for strongest fighter subclass.
Oh man, and then I have an obvious typo in my first sentence (site/sight).
Anyways, one quick follow-up... any particular race or races that are fun to combine with the Echo Knight?
My Echo Knight was a warforged, so that's a real fun one to do. Variant human or custom lineage if you want to get sentinel early is a good choice. Any race with a constitution boost is a great choice, if you have Tasha's, ignore what I just said because any race could have a con boost. I would stray away from anything that gives you more options for your bonus action. Most of the time it's going to be used spawning echoes or teleporting, so try to avoid having stuff that fights for your bonus action. If you're an echo knight and you didn't use your bonus action in combat, you're either doing it wrong or absolutely obliterating the enemy.
One of my current characters is an Echo Knight and she's become my favorite character I think I've ever played. That's partly because of her backstory and RP aspects that are paying off greatly in the campaign but also because of how awesome Echo Knight has been.
My character recently got her 3rd level of fighter and took a 2-level dip in Warlock before that to become a Hexblade with Devil's Sight and Fiendish Vigor. I don't have too many epic stories to tell about the subclass in combat yet, but I can attest to its extremely potent mobility and positioning abilities. During an encounter with a half-dozen vampire spawn in a cramped and burning cellar, she was never trapped nor cornered and made very good use out of being essentially in 2 places at once. Later our party was caught in a much larger and more open area (still crowded with NPCs) when a pack of dire wolves showed up. The amount of ground she was able to cover (without provoking OAs) definitely affected the number of NPCs that escaped. Eventually, our party will find their way into a castle/dungeon and I can't wait to get there and see how far I can run with the subclass' nifty utility.
Lastly I want to say a bit about the flavor I've gone with for the echo and how neatly it fit with my character's backstory, which was ultimately the reason I went with the subclass. So my character is a variant human who was born a tiefling. She was transformed by having to hold onto a blessed object while her infernal nature flowed from her into the object (a rapier that was given to her family by a cleric of Ilmater). This process took 10 years of her childhood and left her with a sword that would speak to her telepathically. This sword would eventually become her Hexblade. Originally, I planned to reflavor the specter that the Hexblade creates with their Accursed Specter ability as her patron (which was actually the infernal/tiefling side of her) taking a physical form that would fight along side her in combat. Well, luckily I decided to look into the newer Fighter subclasses out of curiosity and that's when I came across the Echo Knight. Manifest Echo jumped out at me instantly as a better way to represent this part of the character. So my Knight's "Echo" looks like a ghostly horned skeleton wreathed in lightless green fire from the waist up with a trail of smoke obscuring her lower body (similar to how a genie looks). I'll be posting a backstory w/pictures in the Character Backstory thread soon.
Edit: I want to thank everyone who posted here. And I do mean EVERYONE. This subclass had an understandably rough landing and although the majority of us are positive and excited about it, the Echo Knight could unquestionably benefit from a re-write at some point.
As everyone else has said you're super hung up on the echo being a player character. It isn't. YOU attack as if YOU were standing where the echo is standing.
At the risk of being rude, you're being deliberately obtuse.
The echo doesn't need ammo for your weapon because you carry the ammo.
You ever see a villain in anime that makes portals and punches the hero through them ? THAT'S your echo. Your echo is the portal. Its really not that hard
I'm thinking there are lots of other combinations you can to. Such as a Kobold Echo Knight where both you and the echo has advantage due to pact tactic. Not sure if the Echo will have light sensitivity.
Apparently the Echo doesn't count as an ally (or even as a creature) so it doesn't work with Pack Tactics. It's definitely something that should have been stated in the book but I suppose if your DM allows it anyway, then go for it.
The only good thing is that a lot of spells cannot affect your Echo because it's not a creature or object. So it can't give advantage but at least it's immune to all sorts of spells.
It can't give advantage, but can it GET advantage? Because that's just as nasty since you can take all your attack actions through your echo
yes, if your PC has advantage, then so does the echo
The echo never needs advantage and can never have disadvantage because it never attacks. You attack as if your are where it is. If you can have advantage, it can, but the pack tactics doesn't work because its not an ally, its you twice
Edit: if the echo has an ally other than you, you can have pack tactics advantage because its a copy of you, but you can't give it advantage nor can it give you
It can't give advantage, but can it GET advantage? Because that's just as nasty since you can take all your attack actions through your echo
It might be helpful for you to think of the echo as an object. In many important ways, it's more or less the result of an illusion spell - or, if you prefer, a Blur copy that doesn't have to be in your space. Of course, it's not actually either, since it has the miraculous ability to occupy its space, but the similarities are substantial. Per its rules, it is an image.
The unofficial FAQ linked earlier in this thread points out numerous, bizarre consequences of the fact that it is an object, but an object it remains. For example, no rule in the game prevents an enemy from simply picking the echo up, but also it's immune to Blindness/Deafness, even while you're seeing and hearing through it. Things can get a lot weirder - I just read the FAQ, and one of the stranger current rules interactions is that, because it occupies its space and therefore isn't incorporeal, it must be a legal flying platform, as if you stand on it, you will not fall through it.
I ended up going Dragonborn for my Echo Knight (see my avatar). He hasn't hit level 3 yet, but the abridged story is something as follows: I was captured by a wizard and was saved by a group of adventurers. The five years I spent as a prisoner I have 0% recollection of, but in my sleep I have dark dreams, flickering bits of recollection that only come to me then. Otherwise, it's one big 5-year blank spot in my memory. What did that wizard do to me?
Being incredibly thankful for the adventurers that saved me, I have spent my life since honing my skills on the battlefield and leaving behind a mercantile life for that of glory, and helping others in need, paying it forward.
I've been having terrible headaches and body aches. Every once in a while it's like a crack of lightning in my head. Fortunately, the headaches subside as quickly as they start. However, the frequency keeps increasing and it is troubling (forrrrreshadowinnnnng!)
came to say that - it's definitely NOT a shadow. Otherwise, it would be called Shadow Knight, haha
Actually I love this description – a "Shadow Knight". I'm been thinking about how to represent my own character's Echo. I imagine his Echo as his own shadow. And it is his shadow that comes to 'life' and that he can summon around the battlefield. I thought to add as additional roleplaying element – giving his shadow/echo its own personality. It has no mechanical impact on game system, but is simply there to add more color or life to the game. I think of his shadow as his own split personality manifested visually. It is perhaps his own darker side, that enjoys the violence or murder, and he has to keep it in check. But that also protects him, and does his dirty work. His shadow/echo sometime has a will of its own, though I have yet to figure out its true motives.
I imagine that when my character is asleep, his shadow (a translucent, dark image of himself), gets up and goes about a regular evening. Maybe it just sits around the campfire, or watches other characters, or accomplishes his own goals. I've contemplated this his echo might actually be partially derived from a 'Shadow' monster. Maybe it has a link to the plane of shadows, or is looking to corrupt my own character in some way.
The idea is actually well suited for a warlock as well, with the character's shadow being the manifestation of some other greater force. But it should be said that all of these ideas are just ways of flavoring or adding RP to the game and character. And none of it has mechanical impact upon the game. His echo could be a glowing lollipop for all it truly matters (so long as it is within the DM's graces). I love using it as a way to represent whatever I want my character to be. And I love reading about everyone else's ideas on how they flavor or describe their own Echos. And thus why I've also been enjoying this forum thread.
I believe one of the things that makes this class so appealing is that it taps the imagination of some many. While Echo Knights in Exandria are rooted in time magic, in your own game there are so many other ways they can be represented or explained to create amazing characters and epic stories.
yeah! I totally agree 100%. My echo (well...once I hit level 3) is going to actually be kind of like what you're talking about! I'm still working through it all in my head exactly what the echo is to my character, but I don't think it is going to be rooted to the Exandria explanation. I have 430 experience points to go so I better figure it out... haha
I’m going to try and add something new to this thread: battlefield tactics.
I think all agree that the EK’s strength is in the potential to be virtually anywhere on the field- front lines, behind the lines, on the flank, mobility is key. After thinking about it, I’m going to suggest that PAM is as viable, if not more viable than sentinel in controlling the battlefield and ruining enemy combat tactics. The fundamental distinction: sentinel permits OA’s when enemies are already in combat range (OA when an enemy within the EK’s reach attacks someone other than the EK) while PAM permits OA’s when enemies enter into the EK’s 10’ reach.
By adding PAM, you make a clear distinction between the E and the EK. The E is the striker. Its job is to wade into combat and hit things. If the E gets murdered or the EK ends up more than 30’ away from it, don’t care. That’s a wasted attack for the enemies and/or the EK ends in an excellent defensible position - and my bonus action is already used exclusively for summoning and/or moving the E.
The EK, on the other hand, is the defender. Just like when you’re playing pool, you’re not only thinking about sinking balls- you’re also thinking about where the cueball is likely to go after you take your shot so you can set up your next shot. As a defender, the EK maximizes her efficiency by ending her turn in the path of inbound enemies and intercept them as they enter into the 10’ polearm reach to provoke an OA. Between the 15’ distance in the initial summoning, the 30’ of E movement and the 30’ you can move, you can find a defensible position likely to provoke a PAM OA up to 75’ feet away from where the E’s attack action took place.
TL/DR: This build is all about having the EK keep enemies away from your lines (or making them pay for the privilege) while using the E to attack in an entirely different place. Efficiency by maximizing reactions by way of OA.
Here are the build tactics. Comments, opinions, and further tactics appreciated (and yes, obviously the d4 reaction of PAM is useless - doesn’t matter, since, IMO, the ability to provoke OA’s before enemies enter melee range is just that good) :
BASIC ECHO ATTACK/PAM DEFEND:
Bonus: summon echo - between summoning and movement, 45’ range
Action: attack through Echo
Movement: 30’ to place where PAM reaction anticipated
KNIGHT ATTACK TO PAM DEFEND:
Movement: up to 15’
Action: attack
Bonus: Either summon Echo or move Echo to a defensible position where PAM reaction expected
Movement: use remaining 15’ to teleport
FLANK ATTACK:
Bonus: summon Echo 15’ & move 30’ to desired position
Movement: 15’ to teleport; remaining 15’ to adjust as may be needed to put Knight in a defensible position where PAM reaction expected
Action: attack
FAST RUN: (90’ in one round!):
Movement: move 15’
Action: dash 30’
Bonus: summon Echo 15’ in desired direction, move Echo 30’
Hi Coshinopoulos, great ideas and thinking. A few questions for you:
How your balance the bonus actions needed for summoning your echo, and for PAM's bonus attack? Or do you simply forgo the extra attack?
For the Fast Run, are you also assuming using 15' to teleport?
Have you used these tactics in actual play yet, and if so, how has it worked out?
I see the difference between PAM and Sentinel as extra damage vs movement lock down. PAM give extra damage by allow more AoO as they move it, but nothing stops the enemy from moving by you unless you drop them. Sentinel doesn't provide the extra damage, but can prevent them from getting passed you. In truth I think the best option is to have both. But I do also worry that it is a partial waste because PAM and your Echo both compete for your bonus action.
That said, I love the strategic idea of multiple lines for defense for your more squishy characters. That is a great tactics.
On a side note, have you ever considered multiclassing an EK with a Path of the Ancestors barbarian? If you like party defense, imposing disadvantage on attacks against the rest of your party while your EK is at range can be quick a combo as well. I personally would love to play this build with Sentinel and Great Weapon Master to be able to make reckless attacks at range. But, GWM and PAM would also make for some deadly opportunity attacks.
I don't. Barring weird circumstances, my bonus action is reserved for the Echo;
Yes, damn, neglected to finish my thought. Corrected.
New build, level 4, playing it on Sunday.
As for commentary, there's no right or wrong builds, just builds that do different things to better or worse degrees - that said, the PAM build I'm suggesting leverages, I think, more of the EK's abilities, and in a better way, than sentinel. How do I come to that conclusion?
What basic principle distinguishes the EK as a subclass? I'll suggest there are two: 1) ridiculously flexible mobility; and 2) the ability to be in one place with the option to attack in two. If that's not the dictionary definition of a guerrilla-style build, I don't know what is. To leverage sentinel, you need to be in the front lines to take your opportunity attacks, waiting patiently for the enemy to attack someone else instead of you. The E can be wherever else and it can help- slow enemies within 30' (gotta keep the E manifested) by materializing it next to an enemy and daring them to either give the E an opportunity attack or waste its action hitting it. It turns the E into more of a battlefield obstacle while the EK stands on the front line.
The PAM, using the tactics I'm suggesting, is all hit and run and being everywhere at once. If you're a controlling mind of a group of monsters, a linear view of the field puts the tanks on the front lines with the squishies in back. This is ruined by the EK's non-linear ability to blink behind their front lines to attack the casters and archers. Or to be in two places at once with the E taking attacks on the front line, striking, being an obstacle, and looking for potential OA's, while the EK is off somewhere else, just begging enemies to come into reach OA range. Also helps to keep the EK alive, since you're staying away from the front lines while still getting your licks in and protecting with your reaction.
Haven't put my mind to multiclassing yet; something that would capitalize on the damage of the reaction OA or give multi-reactions would be excellent after the EK gets a second attack at 5th.
First, say so long to Prone being an issue. Why spend half your movement getting up and then doing whatever, when you can spend 15' to simply change positions with your Echo with another 15' of movement to boot.
Second, if you really want to make people's heads explode, play a Bugbear. Sure, the +1 is DEX and not CON, which isn't ideal, but for the love of Mike, imagine playing a PAM EK - with 5' more reach. 😳🤯😵
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Welcome to the thread! Echo Knights are fun and interesting. I would recommend checking out this thread for what is legal RAW and what isn't.
I'm glad you liked our debating/bickering.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Oh man, and then I have an obvious typo in my first sentence (site/sight).
Anyways, one quick follow-up... any particular race or races that are fun to combine with the Echo Knight?
My Echo Knight was a warforged, so that's a real fun one to do. Variant human or custom lineage if you want to get sentinel early is a good choice. Any race with a constitution boost is a great choice, if you have Tasha's, ignore what I just said because any race could have a con boost. I would stray away from anything that gives you more options for your bonus action. Most of the time it's going to be used spawning echoes or teleporting, so try to avoid having stuff that fights for your bonus action. If you're an echo knight and you didn't use your bonus action in combat, you're either doing it wrong or absolutely obliterating the enemy.
One of my current characters is an Echo Knight and she's become my favorite character I think I've ever played. That's partly because of her backstory and RP aspects that are paying off greatly in the campaign but also because of how awesome Echo Knight has been.
My character recently got her 3rd level of fighter and took a 2-level dip in Warlock before that to become a Hexblade with Devil's Sight and Fiendish Vigor. I don't have too many epic stories to tell about the subclass in combat yet, but I can attest to its extremely potent mobility and positioning abilities. During an encounter with a half-dozen vampire spawn in a cramped and burning cellar, she was never trapped nor cornered and made very good use out of being essentially in 2 places at once. Later our party was caught in a much larger and more open area (still crowded with NPCs) when a pack of dire wolves showed up. The amount of ground she was able to cover (without provoking OAs) definitely affected the number of NPCs that escaped. Eventually, our party will find their way into a castle/dungeon and I can't wait to get there and see how far I can run with the subclass' nifty utility.
Lastly I want to say a bit about the flavor I've gone with for the echo and how neatly it fit with my character's backstory, which was ultimately the reason I went with the subclass. So my character is a variant human who was born a tiefling. She was transformed by having to hold onto a blessed object while her infernal nature flowed from her into the object (a rapier that was given to her family by a cleric of Ilmater). This process took 10 years of her childhood and left her with a sword that would speak to her telepathically. This sword would eventually become her Hexblade. Originally, I planned to reflavor the specter that the Hexblade creates with their Accursed Specter ability as her patron (which was actually the infernal/tiefling side of her) taking a physical form that would fight along side her in combat. Well, luckily I decided to look into the newer Fighter subclasses out of curiosity and that's when I came across the Echo Knight. Manifest Echo jumped out at me instantly as a better way to represent this part of the character. So my Knight's "Echo" looks like a ghostly horned skeleton wreathed in lightless green fire from the waist up with a trail of smoke obscuring her lower body (similar to how a genie looks). I'll be posting a backstory w/pictures in the Character Backstory thread soon.
Edit: I want to thank everyone who posted here. And I do mean EVERYONE. This subclass had an understandably rough landing and although the majority of us are positive and excited about it, the Echo Knight could unquestionably benefit from a re-write at some point.
As everyone else has said you're super hung up on the echo being a player character. It isn't. YOU attack as if YOU were standing where the echo is standing.
At the risk of being rude, you're being deliberately obtuse.
The echo doesn't need ammo for your weapon because you carry the ammo.
You ever see a villain in anime that makes portals and punches the hero through them ? THAT'S your echo. Your echo is the portal. Its really not that hard
It can't give advantage, but can it GET advantage? Because that's just as nasty since you can take all your attack actions through your echo
yes, if your PC has advantage, then so does the echo
The echo never needs advantage and can never have disadvantage because it never attacks. You attack as if your are where it is. If you can have advantage, it can, but the pack tactics doesn't work because its not an ally, its you twice
Edit: if the echo has an ally other than you, you can have pack tactics advantage because its a copy of you, but you can't give it advantage nor can it give you
It might be helpful for you to think of the echo as an object. In many important ways, it's more or less the result of an illusion spell - or, if you prefer, a Blur copy that doesn't have to be in your space. Of course, it's not actually either, since it has the miraculous ability to occupy its space, but the similarities are substantial. Per its rules, it is an image.
The unofficial FAQ linked earlier in this thread points out numerous, bizarre consequences of the fact that it is an object, but an object it remains. For example, no rule in the game prevents an enemy from simply picking the echo up, but also it's immune to Blindness/Deafness, even while you're seeing and hearing through it. Things can get a lot weirder - I just read the FAQ, and one of the stranger current rules interactions is that, because it occupies its space and therefore isn't incorporeal, it must be a legal flying platform, as if you stand on it, you will not fall through it.
its not glowing its a shadow
It's not a shadow. It's an image.
came to say that - it's definitely NOT a shadow. Otherwise, it would be called Shadow Knight, haha
Very cool, BuzzinFrog!
I ended up going Dragonborn for my Echo Knight (see my avatar). He hasn't hit level 3 yet, but the abridged story is something as follows: I was captured by a wizard and was saved by a group of adventurers. The five years I spent as a prisoner I have 0% recollection of, but in my sleep I have dark dreams, flickering bits of recollection that only come to me then. Otherwise, it's one big 5-year blank spot in my memory. What did that wizard do to me?
Being incredibly thankful for the adventurers that saved me, I have spent my life since honing my skills on the battlefield and leaving behind a mercantile life for that of glory, and helping others in need, paying it forward.
I've been having terrible headaches and body aches. Every once in a while it's like a crack of lightning in my head. Fortunately, the headaches subside as quickly as they start. However, the frequency keeps increasing and it is troubling (forrrrreshadowinnnnng!)
Actually I love this description – a "Shadow Knight". I'm been thinking about how to represent my own character's Echo. I imagine his Echo as his own shadow. And it is his shadow that comes to 'life' and that he can summon around the battlefield. I thought to add as additional roleplaying element – giving his shadow/echo its own personality. It has no mechanical impact on game system, but is simply there to add more color or life to the game. I think of his shadow as his own split personality manifested visually. It is perhaps his own darker side, that enjoys the violence or murder, and he has to keep it in check. But that also protects him, and does his dirty work. His shadow/echo sometime has a will of its own, though I have yet to figure out its true motives.
I imagine that when my character is asleep, his shadow (a translucent, dark image of himself), gets up and goes about a regular evening. Maybe it just sits around the campfire, or watches other characters, or accomplishes his own goals. I've contemplated this his echo might actually be partially derived from a 'Shadow' monster. Maybe it has a link to the plane of shadows, or is looking to corrupt my own character in some way.
The idea is actually well suited for a warlock as well, with the character's shadow being the manifestation of some other greater force. But it should be said that all of these ideas are just ways of flavoring or adding RP to the game and character. And none of it has mechanical impact upon the game. His echo could be a glowing lollipop for all it truly matters (so long as it is within the DM's graces). I love using it as a way to represent whatever I want my character to be. And I love reading about everyone else's ideas on how they flavor or describe their own Echos. And thus why I've also been enjoying this forum thread.
I believe one of the things that makes this class so appealing is that it taps the imagination of some many. While Echo Knights in Exandria are rooted in time magic, in your own game there are so many other ways they can be represented or explained to create amazing characters and epic stories.
yeah! I totally agree 100%. My echo (well...once I hit level 3) is going to actually be kind of like what you're talking about! I'm still working through it all in my head exactly what the echo is to my character, but I don't think it is going to be rooted to the Exandria explanation. I have 430 experience points to go so I better figure it out... haha
I’m going to try and add something new to this thread: battlefield tactics.
I think all agree that the EK’s strength is in the potential to be virtually anywhere on the field- front lines, behind the lines, on the flank, mobility is key. After thinking about it, I’m going to suggest that PAM is as viable, if not more viable than sentinel in controlling the battlefield and ruining enemy combat tactics. The fundamental distinction: sentinel permits OA’s when enemies are already in combat range (OA when an enemy within the EK’s reach attacks someone other than the EK) while PAM permits OA’s when enemies enter into the EK’s 10’ reach.
By adding PAM, you make a clear distinction between the E and the EK. The E is the striker. Its job is to wade into combat and hit things. If the E gets murdered or the EK ends up more than 30’ away from it, don’t care. That’s a wasted attack for the enemies and/or the EK ends in an excellent defensible position - and my bonus action is already used exclusively for summoning and/or moving the E.
The EK, on the other hand, is the defender. Just like when you’re playing pool, you’re not only thinking about sinking balls- you’re also thinking about where the cueball is likely to go after you take your shot so you can set up your next shot. As a defender, the EK maximizes her efficiency by ending her turn in the path of inbound enemies and intercept them as they enter into the 10’ polearm reach to provoke an OA. Between the 15’ distance in the initial summoning, the 30’ of E movement and the 30’ you can move, you can find a defensible position likely to provoke a PAM OA up to 75’ feet away from where the E’s attack action took place.
TL/DR: This build is all about having the EK keep enemies away from your lines (or making them pay for the privilege) while using the E to attack in an entirely different place. Efficiency by maximizing reactions by way of OA.
Here are the build tactics. Comments, opinions, and further tactics appreciated (and yes, obviously the d4 reaction of PAM is useless - doesn’t matter, since, IMO, the ability to provoke OA’s before enemies enter melee range is just that good) :
BASIC ECHO ATTACK/PAM DEFEND:
KNIGHT ATTACK TO PAM DEFEND:
FLANK ATTACK:
FAST RUN: (90’ in one round!):
[edited for typos and to correct the fast run]
Hi Coshinopoulos, great ideas and thinking. A few questions for you:
I see the difference between PAM and Sentinel as extra damage vs movement lock down. PAM give extra damage by allow more AoO as they move it, but nothing stops the enemy from moving by you unless you drop them. Sentinel doesn't provide the extra damage, but can prevent them from getting passed you. In truth I think the best option is to have both. But I do also worry that it is a partial waste because PAM and your Echo both compete for your bonus action.
That said, I love the strategic idea of multiple lines for defense for your more squishy characters. That is a great tactics.
On a side note, have you ever considered multiclassing an EK with a Path of the Ancestors barbarian? If you like party defense, imposing disadvantage on attacks against the rest of your party while your EK is at range can be quick a combo as well. I personally would love to play this build with Sentinel and Great Weapon Master to be able to make reckless attacks at range. But, GWM and PAM would also make for some deadly opportunity attacks.
I love everything about the last two posts. Never thought of actually using the Echo solely as an attacking until and playing defense with the EK.
Kind of an ‘Aha’ moment
Answers first, commentary second.
As for commentary, there's no right or wrong builds, just builds that do different things to better or worse degrees - that said, the PAM build I'm suggesting leverages, I think, more of the EK's abilities, and in a better way, than sentinel. How do I come to that conclusion?
What basic principle distinguishes the EK as a subclass? I'll suggest there are two: 1) ridiculously flexible mobility; and 2) the ability to be in one place with the option to attack in two. If that's not the dictionary definition of a guerrilla-style build, I don't know what is. To leverage sentinel, you need to be in the front lines to take your opportunity attacks, waiting patiently for the enemy to attack someone else instead of you. The E can be wherever else and it can help- slow enemies within 30' (gotta keep the E manifested) by materializing it next to an enemy and daring them to either give the E an opportunity attack or waste its action hitting it. It turns the E into more of a battlefield obstacle while the EK stands on the front line.
The PAM, using the tactics I'm suggesting, is all hit and run and being everywhere at once. If you're a controlling mind of a group of monsters, a linear view of the field puts the tanks on the front lines with the squishies in back. This is ruined by the EK's non-linear ability to blink behind their front lines to attack the casters and archers. Or to be in two places at once with the E taking attacks on the front line, striking, being an obstacle, and looking for potential OA's, while the EK is off somewhere else, just begging enemies to come into reach OA range. Also helps to keep the EK alive, since you're staying away from the front lines while still getting your licks in and protecting with your reaction.
Haven't put my mind to multiclassing yet; something that would capitalize on the damage of the reaction OA or give multi-reactions would be excellent after the EK gets a second attack at 5th.
Two more points.
First, say so long to Prone being an issue. Why spend half your movement getting up and then doing whatever, when you can spend 15' to simply change positions with your Echo with another 15' of movement to boot.
Second, if you really want to make people's heads explode, play a Bugbear. Sure, the +1 is DEX and not CON, which isn't ideal, but for the love of Mike, imagine playing a PAM EK - with 5' more reach. 😳🤯😵