Jeremy Crawford Just posted on twitter that it can move vertically. he also stated that it can hang out there. So LeviRocks you were right! Looks like the Echo Knight may be one of the best fighter subclasses out there.
Proxy, the Echo is an object, not a creature. It does not have a speed. it has 30 feet of movement. and the text specifically says it can be moved in ANY direction. It isnt a poor interpretation, its an accurate one
Jeremy Crawford Just posted on twitter that it can move vertically. he also stated that it can hang out there. So LeviRocks you were right! Looks like the Echo Knight may be one of the best fighter subclasses out there.
Thank you for backing me up with evidence.
It is a great subclass, and can strangely do ranged damage, that is still technically melee damage.
It isn't an object or a creature. Never says that it is either, but it does say that it is an image. I'd not classify it as either an object or creature, but in a 3rd category, just to make it so it can't be affected by True Polymorph, and so people can't make echoes with True Polymorphy, just for simplicity.
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So even if you can move it vertically there is next to no point in doing so as to do most things with the echo it needs to be within 5 feet of a creature (friendly or hostile) using a polearm or ranged weapon would be a detriment to this, and because its unclear weather they can carry or use ammo means ranged weapons are a big blank. So my point still stands, this subclass doesn't really add anything to the kit but the extra attack witch is good damage but is overshadowed by other archetypes, if anything this archetype restricts what a fighter can really do, even the champion offers more flexibility.
How does the Champion have more flexibility? The Battle Master is more flexible, but doesn't do more damage.
This subclass is extremely useful. Ever wanted to attack a creature with a Great Weapon Master Greatsword, and but it was 40 feet above you. You can melee attack, vertically.
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The echo doesn't need ammo because it doesn't attack. The feature says you can use your own attack action from your position OR the echo's position. That's why LeviRocks and I were highlighting this is a way to effectively do ranged melee. Or if you want to go ranged and give up some of attack of opportunity options, you could hide behind full cover, move your echo out, take a shot from it, and never reveal your actual character.
The echo doesn't need ammo because it doesn't attack. The feature says you can use your own attack action from your position OR the echo's position. That's why LeviRocks and I were highlighting this is a way to effectively do ranged melee. Or if you want to go ranged and give up some of attack of opportunity options, you could hide behind full cover, move your echo out, take a shot from it, and never reveal your actual character.
after re reading...this does not work XD unlease incarnarion (the feature that lets you attack again) reads "you can heighten your echo's fury. Whenever you take the attack action, you can make one additional MELEE attack from your echo's position." Ranged attacks 100% do not work, also when your plan you are giving up all your attacks to make one maybe from safety from a clone that has 1 HP, great plan if you want your group to hate you for not helping.
How does the Champion have more flexibility? The Battle Master is more flexible, but doesn't do more damage.
This subclass is extremely useful. Ever wanted to attack a creature with a Great Weapon Master Greatsword, and but it was 40 feet above you. You can melee attack, vertically.
Champion is more flexible because you can use whatever type of weapons/fighting style you want and even gives you extra fighting styles later on in place of nothing. same goes for battle master and battlemaster can really tack on that extra damage, effectively you can only use the echo up to 5 times to attack and at lower levels its maybe 3 times and it only comes back on a long rest, superiority dice comes back on a short rest and can be used as many times as you have attacks on your turn, want to blow it all in one turn and really add on that damage you can, did you get a crit? well time to use a maneuver and roll 2 of those sweet superiority dice cuz you cirt, something giving you trouble? fear, knock it down or disarm it then use its own weapon to fight it. echo know....1 extra attack a turn and you can only use it up to 5 times and lets be honest, early game no one takes more than 16 con and then no one buffs it till at least level 12.
The echo itself doesn't have a weapon, it's basically your shadow and doesn't attack for itself. The flexibility comes from the level 3 ability:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
And
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
This allows you to make any number of your attacks from your position or an echo's position, which is how it gives you better battlefield control. Additionally, it benefits from your weapons, traits, and features since it's just changing the point or origin not replacing the attack.
The echo itself doesn't have a weapon, it's basically your shadow and doesn't attack for itself. The flexibility comes from the level 3 ability:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
And
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
This allows you to make any number of your attacks from your position or an echo's position, which is how it gives you better battlefield control. Additionally, it benefits from your weapons, traits, and features since it's just changing the point or origin not replacing the attack.
"Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
you miss quoted, it has NONE of your features or traits, and the saving throw thing makes 0 difference because it is immune to all conditions and has 1 hp, even is something does 1 1 damage and makes the save it dies because you can't deal less than 1 damage.
furthermore when it comes to ranged attacked the feature that lets you make a extra attack states melee, the first feature doesn't say melee BUT you make a ranged attack you have to either ammo for said ranged weapon OR throw it, this feature uses YOUR weapon so it can't throw your weapon nor does it have ammo (and probably can't carry anything, it doesn't have any ability scores so it has a str of 0 witch means it has a carry weight of 0)
also for the sear fact it can't make attacks of opportunity means you have 0 battlefield control because when it is not your turn it poses 0 threat and the only thing it can do is jump if front of someone and die or just die, not to mention the main thing is going to be used for is attacking the same thing your attacking so swapping places with it at the cost of 15 movement is next to pointless and you can get further just by using a dash action (if its 30 feet away you have to use 15 movement to swap to it then you can move 15 more, and if your using the 1000 feet away one you can only move it 30 feet every 6 seconds so it is faster to dash) lastly making two of them changes nothing because you need a reaction to use anything it does so you can only use one or the other, putting the other one next to something further away at best will stop ONE attack and you can only use it ONCE per long rest, also by the time you do get that feature creatures normally has more than one attack so they kill it and just keep making attacks.
lastly you can only use it x times per LONG rest unlike most other strong damage fight feature (maneuvers and arcane shots) come back on a short rest, also lets be real, early game unless you rolled 2 18s who has more than 14-16 con, meaning you only get 2-3 uses on a long rest or if your lucky maybe 4 (most races only give a con boost of +1, and 5 uses per long rest is extremely limited, so to review: only works with melee attacks limiting you to duling, two weapon fighting or GWF, limited use and movement, doesn't really do anything beyond the 1 extra attack so you might as well make a war cleric and get a bunch of cool spells.
How does the Champion have more flexibility? The Battle Master is more flexible, but doesn't do more damage.
This subclass is extremely useful. Ever wanted to attack a creature with a Great Weapon Master Greatsword, and but it was 40 feet above you. You can melee attack, vertically.
1. champion works with all weapon types and crits on 19 come up alot, also being 5 feet above the thing your attack means nothing, even if you were using a reach weapon it still means nothing because you are the same distance away and it can still be targeted and killed, furthermore your only looking at champion's level 3 ability, the level 7 ability makes you good at flat str, dex and con checks as well as any skills that use those stats, level 10 gives you another fighting style (so you can pick up armored so that is a free +1 AC) at 15 you crit on 18s and at level 18 as long as you have at least 1 hp you get 5+con HP every turn and by then you should have 20 con so 10 HP every turn. so yes being able to use your fighter however you want and crit way more often and be good at more skill checks is more flexible, that being champion is super under rated but its still not quite as good as battle master with is extra damage on demand that can be used like a weaker pally smite that can also knock down, disarm or fear anything you want at will, or use commanding strike to let your rogue get in extra sneak attacks in. echo knight limits you to melee attacks only with its only buff being one extra attack once per turn, with maneuvers you can use them on every attack in a turn if you want, and arcane shots just do more damage AND can debuff.
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
"also for the sear fact it can't make attacks of opportunity means you have 0 battlefield control "
Well, one of these statements is wrong ;)
The fact that you can make opportunity attacks through the echo has the potential to make it extremely potent for battlefield control if you start combining it with feats such as Sentinel and Mobile. That said the Echo Knight's strength isn't in raw combat potential though (Battelmaster easily outpaces it there) but in versatility; there aren't many features out there that allow a melee character to attack at a range of 30ft, teleport short distances at will, run nearly as fast as a rogue or be able to retreat when on low hps and engage in drone attacks.
I'm sorry I miss read a bad class, would. Doesn't matter anyways as I sated before two things:
1. You only get one reaction so having more doesn't do anything
2. You are more than likely going to have your echo up close to something your attacking anyways making the point about reactions moot
And lastly when you make the echo it has to be within 15 feet of you, if you are going to send it out to stand by things those creatures better be within 30 feet of your echo or it will NEVER catch up to what your sending it after. Lastly if it's a spell caster or something that makes it do a save, it's just dead, on the cube moved 5 feet forward, oh look it's dead again.
Still not useful and still doesn't give you more battlefield control.
I also just realised something, any creature with aura damage renders the echo useless as most aura deal damage when a creature enters or ends there it takes damage so even if you use a bonus action to summon a new one if its within the aura range ot takes damage and as auras extens 5 or more feet means the echo becomes un useable
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Jeremy Crawford Just posted on twitter that it can move vertically. he also stated that it can hang out there. So LeviRocks you were right! Looks like the Echo Knight may be one of the best fighter subclasses out there.
Proxy, the Echo is an object, not a creature. It does not have a speed. it has 30 feet of movement. and the text specifically says it can be moved in ANY direction. It isnt a poor interpretation, its an accurate one
Thank you for backing me up with evidence.
It is a great subclass, and can strangely do ranged damage, that is still technically melee damage.
It isn't an object or a creature. Never says that it is either, but it does say that it is an image. I'd not classify it as either an object or creature, but in a 3rd category, just to make it so it can't be affected by True Polymorph, and so people can't make echoes with True Polymorphy, just for simplicity.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Just for clarification, per Jeremy Crawford the echo is an object. Therefore, the echo can be targeted by things that target objects.
Because the echo manifested is magical in nature no True Polymorph shenanigans to worry about.
Okay, if he says it's and object, I guess it is. Wish that was specified in the book though.
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So even if you can move it vertically there is next to no point in doing so as to do most things with the echo it needs to be within 5 feet of a creature (friendly or hostile) using a polearm or ranged weapon would be a detriment to this, and because its unclear weather they can carry or use ammo means ranged weapons are a big blank. So my point still stands, this subclass doesn't really add anything to the kit but the extra attack witch is good damage but is overshadowed by other archetypes, if anything this archetype restricts what a fighter can really do, even the champion offers more flexibility.
How does the Champion have more flexibility? The Battle Master is more flexible, but doesn't do more damage.
This subclass is extremely useful. Ever wanted to attack a creature with a Great Weapon Master Greatsword, and but it was 40 feet above you. You can melee attack, vertically.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The echo doesn't need ammo because it doesn't attack. The feature says you can use your own attack action from your position OR the echo's position. That's why LeviRocks and I were highlighting this is a way to effectively do ranged melee. Or if you want to go ranged and give up some of attack of opportunity options, you could hide behind full cover, move your echo out, take a shot from it, and never reveal your actual character.
Exactly, you can attack someone over and over again without revealing what you look like without casting any spells or concentrating on anything.
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after re reading...this does not work XD unlease incarnarion (the feature that lets you attack again) reads "you can heighten your echo's fury. Whenever you take the attack action, you can make one additional MELEE attack from your echo's position."
Ranged attacks 100% do not work, also when your plan you are giving up all your attacks to make one maybe from safety from a clone that has 1 HP, great plan if you want your group to hate you for not helping.
Champion is more flexible because you can use whatever type of weapons/fighting style you want and even gives you extra fighting styles later on in place of nothing. same goes for battle master and battlemaster can really tack on that extra damage, effectively you can only use the echo up to 5 times to attack and at lower levels its maybe 3 times and it only comes back on a long rest, superiority dice comes back on a short rest and can be used as many times as you have attacks on your turn, want to blow it all in one turn and really add on that damage you can, did you get a crit? well time to use a maneuver and roll 2 of those sweet superiority dice cuz you cirt, something giving you trouble? fear, knock it down or disarm it then use its own weapon to fight it.
echo know....1 extra attack a turn and you can only use it up to 5 times and lets be honest, early game no one takes more than 16 con and then no one buffs it till at least level 12.
Sure, their extra attack 5 times a day has to be melee, but you still can be ranged based, but change melee when they want to use this ability.
Also, how does getting a critical hit on a 19 or 20 on any weapon attack more flexible than being able to attack from two different spaces?
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Does the Echo Knight have to have the same weapon you are wielding? Or can it have a longbow or a warhammer while you have a greatsword?
Does the Echo Knight have to have the same weapon you are wielding? Or can it have a longbow or a warhammer while you have a greatsword?
It has to be the same weapon you're using.
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The echo itself doesn't have a weapon, it's basically your shadow and doesn't attack for itself. The flexibility comes from the level 3 ability:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
And
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."
This allows you to make any number of your attacks from your position or an echo's position, which is how it gives you better battlefield control. Additionally, it benefits from your weapons, traits, and features since it's just changing the point or origin not replacing the attack.
"Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
you miss quoted, it has NONE of your features or traits, and the saving throw thing makes 0 difference because it is immune to all conditions and has 1 hp, even is something does 1 1 damage and makes the save it dies because you can't deal less than 1 damage.
furthermore when it comes to ranged attacked the feature that lets you make a extra attack states melee, the first feature doesn't say melee BUT you make a ranged attack you have to either ammo for said ranged weapon OR throw it, this feature uses YOUR weapon so it can't throw your weapon nor does it have ammo (and probably can't carry anything, it doesn't have any ability scores so it has a str of 0 witch means it has a carry weight of 0)
also for the sear fact it can't make attacks of opportunity means you have 0 battlefield control because when it is not your turn it poses 0 threat and the only thing it can do is jump if front of someone and die or just die, not to mention the main thing is going to be used for is attacking the same thing your attacking so swapping places with it at the cost of 15 movement is next to pointless and you can get further just by using a dash action (if its 30 feet away you have to use 15 movement to swap to it then you can move 15 more, and if your using the 1000 feet away one you can only move it 30 feet every 6 seconds so it is faster to dash)
lastly making two of them changes nothing because you need a reaction to use anything it does so you can only use one or the other, putting the other one next to something further away at best will stop ONE attack and you can only use it ONCE per long rest, also by the time you do get that feature creatures normally has more than one attack so they kill it and just keep making attacks.
lastly you can only use it x times per LONG rest unlike most other strong damage fight feature (maneuvers and arcane shots) come back on a short rest, also lets be real, early game unless you rolled 2 18s who has more than 14-16 con, meaning you only get 2-3 uses on a long rest or if your lucky maybe 4 (most races only give a con boost of +1, and 5 uses per long rest is extremely limited, so to review: only works with melee attacks limiting you to duling, two weapon fighting or GWF, limited use and movement, doesn't really do anything beyond the 1 extra attack so you might as well make a war cleric and get a bunch of cool spells.
1. champion works with all weapon types and crits on 19 come up alot, also being 5 feet above the thing your attack means nothing, even if you were using a reach weapon it still means nothing because you are the same distance away and it can still be targeted and killed, furthermore your only looking at champion's level 3 ability, the level 7 ability makes you good at flat str, dex and con checks as well as any skills that use those stats, level 10 gives you another fighting style (so you can pick up armored so that is a free +1 AC) at 15 you crit on 18s and at level 18 as long as you have at least 1 hp you get 5+con HP every turn and by then you should have 20 con so 10 HP every turn.
so yes being able to use your fighter however you want and crit way more often and be good at more skill checks is more flexible, that being champion is super under rated but its still not quite as good as battle master with is extra damage on demand that can be used like a weaker pally smite that can also knock down, disarm or fear anything you want at will, or use commanding strike to let your rogue get in extra sneak attacks in. echo knight limits you to melee attacks only with its only buff being one extra attack once per turn, with maneuvers you can use them on every attack in a turn if you want, and arcane shots just do more damage AND can debuff.
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space."
"also for the sear fact it can't make attacks of opportunity means you have 0 battlefield control "
Well, one of these statements is wrong ;)
The fact that you can make opportunity attacks through the echo has the potential to make it extremely potent for battlefield control if you start combining it with feats such as Sentinel and Mobile. That said the Echo Knight's strength isn't in raw combat potential though (Battelmaster easily outpaces it there) but in versatility; there aren't many features out there that allow a melee character to attack at a range of 30ft, teleport short distances at will, run nearly as fast as a rogue or be able to retreat when on low hps and engage in drone attacks.
I'm sorry I miss read a bad class, would. Doesn't matter anyways as I sated before two things:
1. You only get one reaction so having more doesn't do anything
2. You are more than likely going to have your echo up close to something your attacking anyways making the point about reactions moot
And lastly when you make the echo it has to be within 15 feet of you, if you are going to send it out to stand by things those creatures better be within 30 feet of your echo or it will NEVER catch up to what your sending it after. Lastly if it's a spell caster or something that makes it do a save, it's just dead, on the cube moved 5 feet forward, oh look it's dead again.
Still not useful and still doesn't give you more battlefield control.
I also just realised something, any creature with aura damage renders the echo useless as most aura deal damage when a creature enters or ends there it takes damage so even if you use a bonus action to summon a new one if its within the aura range ot takes damage and as auras extens 5 or more feet means the echo becomes un useable