I also don't understand how you can hide and make attacks through the echo simultaneously? Like, doesn't making an Attack action reveal your position? Don't you have to see the target (unless you are fine with Blinded condition effects)?
well you could but its not very..."usable" its a bonus action to summon it and a action to hide, so you would move it into place to attack while you hide, it dies, you have to summon it again witch will give away your location and then use your action to hide, you could have just used the attack action twice with that flow, even if you took two levels in rogue its kind of the same deal because you would be using your bonus action to summon it and your bonus action to hide, its better to just bonus action hide and then fire some type of bow, also as I said before the echo can't hold ammo and the feature that calls for the extra attack specifies "melee attack".
so you could, but unless the thing you want to attack in within 45 feet of you, your looking at several turns on doing nothing witch means hanging your team mates out to dry
I mean that as I picture it, if you want to attack from the point of your echo, you have to make an attack yourself, since this is your image (otherwise it makes no sense for you to be able to make less attacks, if your image is independent, kinda like the problem with Beast Master). So swinging a sword from barrels that you are hiding behind should logically give away your position (or at least allow enemies to make a perception check with advantage or smth).
You can also be out of enemy's sight and hearing, but in that case you can't see them either, so you attack blindly with all the downsides. You could use Avatar ability to see through the echo of course, but since the intent was that you can't do anything in that state, its useless in that regard.
Ok so you have a few things wrong when it comes to the Echo.
Legion of One allows you to make 2 echos, those echos can be 30 feet from you in a fight. They cant flank or sneak bonus but you CAN attack from each one in a single turn as RAW clearly states. So you could engage 3 targets simultaneously if you have 3 or more attacks in an action. This may or may not be useful in combat depending on the situation, but I can think of a few situations where it helps immensely.
As far as summoning within 15' yes its limited, but you and the echo can move as a pack in your turn as its movement does not count against you. I'm thinking Held actions here. Imagine than you stroll up and draw attention and hold your reaction. You say "I will wait until the target reaches this point and then I will summon my echo next to it." The target reaches said point on it's way to you and triggers your reaction. As it moves out of the threat range of the echo it gets an OoA. That's 1 free hit before it gets to you. It might not seem like much but it was free damage. If there were other enemies following the first than the echo now serves as a distraction buying you 1 turn before they join the other and engage you.
As far as moving the echo, RAW states ANY direction. That means vertical. You could use it to engage aerial opponents and use melee attacks. Let's be honest, if your going for dex builds, fighter is not the cream of the crop, there are better choices. So this let's you focus on str attacks and still be able to fight aerial combatants.
This class is built for teamwork. And it delivers. With the right equipment it's a tank, healer or sniper. It has extended mobility and can get you to places other fighter classes couldnt easily reach. With a good DM who plays creatures as creatures and not like they know your tactics it is an amazing class.
If your looking for brute strength than no, the echo knight is not the class for you. But if you like tactics and you have any imagination than this class has options for you.
Ok so you have a few things wrong when it comes to the Echo.
Legion of One allows you to make 2 echos, those echos can be 30 feet from you in a fight. They cant flank or sneak bonus but you CAN attack from each one in a single turn as RAW clearly states. So you could engage 3 targets simultaneously if you have 3 or more attacks in an action. This may or may not be useful in combat depending on the situation, but I can think of a few situations where it helps immensely.
As far as summoning within 15' yes its limited, but you and the echo can move as a pack in your turn as its movement does not count against you. I'm thinking Held actions here. Imagine than you stroll up and draw attention and hold your reaction. You say "I will wait until the target reaches this point and then I will summon my echo next to it." The target reaches said point on it's way to you and triggers your reaction. As it moves out of the threat range of the echo it gets an OoA. That's 1 free hit before it gets to you. It might not seem like much but it was free damage. If there were other enemies following the first than the echo now serves as a distraction buying you 1 turn before they join the other and engage you.
As far as moving the echo, RAW states ANY direction. That means vertical. You could use it to engage aerial opponents and use melee attacks. Let's be honest, if your going for dex builds, fighter is not the cream of the crop, there are better choices. So this let's you focus on str attacks and still be able to fight aerial combatants.
This class is built for teamwork. And it delivers. With the right equipment it's a tank, healer or sniper. It has extended mobility and can get you to places other fighter classes couldnt easily reach. With a good DM who plays creatures as creatures and not like they know your tactics it is an amazing class.
If your looking for brute strength than no, the echo knight is not the class for you. But if you like tactics and you have any imagination than this class has options for you.
Couldn’t have said it better. The strength comes from your ability to maneuver and strike. I cannot stress enough how good sentinel is for echo knight and how much it contributes to these tactics. Also with the new errata on sentinel, we may be looking at echoes benefiting even more, although that’s just wishful thinking
Ok so you have a few things wrong when it comes to the Echo.
Legion of One allows you to make 2 echos, those echos can be 30 feet from you in a fight. They cant flank or sneak bonus but you CAN attack from each one in a single turn as RAW clearly states. So you could engage 3 targets simultaneously if you have 3 or more attacks in an action. This may or may not be useful in combat depending on the situation, but I can think of a few situations where it helps immensely.
As far as summoning within 15' yes its limited, but you and the echo can move as a pack in your turn as its movement does not count against you. I'm thinking Held actions here. Imagine than you stroll up and draw attention and hold your reaction. You say "I will wait until the target reaches this point and then I will summon my echo next to it." The target reaches said point on it's way to you and triggers your reaction. As it moves out of the threat range of the echo it gets an OoA. That's 1 free hit before it gets to you. It might not seem like much but it was free damage. If there were other enemies following the first than the echo now serves as a distraction buying you 1 turn before they join the other and engage you.
As far as moving the echo, RAW states ANY direction. That means vertical. You could use it to engage aerial opponents and use melee attacks. Let's be honest, if your going for dex builds, fighter is not the cream of the crop, there are better choices. So this let's you focus on str attacks and still be able to fight aerial combatants.
This class is built for teamwork. And it delivers. With the right equipment it's a tank, healer or sniper. It has extended mobility and can get you to places other fighter classes couldnt easily reach. With a good DM who plays creatures as creatures and not like they know your tactics it is an amazing class.
If your looking for brute strength than no, the echo knight is not the class for you. But if you like tactics and you have any imagination than this class has options for you.
so there are alot of things wrong with your post, first off, attacking more than one creature in only good when fighting things that die in one hit, otherwise your just doing less overall damage and ruining your action economy, this is a DM tactic for dealing damage to more than one player with a creature that has multi attack so you don't outright kill players, but if your fighting 3 creatures with a equal CR then you want to take them out one at a time so there action economy goes down, spreading yourself thin will just make you a larger target and you will be the first to go down. also engaging creatures with flying that are not melee attackers is not possible as they will always have more or equal movement to the echo so if it has ranged attacks it can take one dash and then forever be safe from the echo....or just attack it and kill it in one hit and then you have to summon it and get it 90 feet in the air all over again.
also as for the equipment its limited to your melee weapon so it has a range of AT BEST 10 feet , it is ment for extra damage and that is all its good for, it can't use cure wound or hold a potion so healer is out and its range is limited to its weapon and movement.
What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it. 2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them 3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care. 4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out 5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago. 6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol 7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM 8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it. 2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them 3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care. 4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out 5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago. 6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol 7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM 8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
1: don't assume that people will DM like you would. The echo is an object, and in my games, I would continue to treat it as such. You can still attack an object, and it has a defined AC and HP, so a normal "attack" would still hit it. But spells that SPECIFICALLY target creatures would not affect the echo.
2: So far this is the only correct thing you have said.
3: No, with his logic, the Fighter can take attacks of opportunity through the echo's space. It is not the Echo making the attack of opportunity, but rather the Fighter with an expanded "threat range" or "range" or whatever the PHB/DMG defines it as, since the Fighter can make attacks through their space OR their echoes.
4: Alright, while the spirit of your argument is sound (I'll give you that), if a player wants to spread their actions that thin, that's their problem, not a problem with the mechanics. And besides, if a Fighter is getting all the attention, that's the Casters who are free to nuke things, which is the very definition of teamwork.
5: What in the hell are you actually talking about here???
6: Okay, sure, a creature can just stay 35 feet away from the echo. But uh, reach weapons are a thing still. So it'd have to be 45 feet away. Is it 100% viable? No, but it IS a thing that can happen if things line up.
7: If a spell specifically says "target creature," then no, the echo cannot be targeted period. Normal attacks can still work, as stated before.
8: Save or suck spells, most of them (to my current off the top of my head knowledge) do not specify target creature, so yes that's fair and valid targetting. As for making yourself blind and deaf, yes, sure that is also true and valid, but the 1000 feet range is still also able to go straight up if you wanted to. As far as the multiple attacks... well, that's true. I'll give you that.
so out of your 8 points, you have... 1.5 correct.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
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What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it. 2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them 3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care. 4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out 5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago. 6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol 7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM 8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
1. it's purposefully an object in the rules. I've posted the source to it elsewhere. It's not able to attack like a creature. You're able to attack from it's space. It doesn't attack, you do. It's like invoke duplicity. Maybe in your games it's a creature, but mainstream it's an object. Don't post something objectively false like this. Jeremy Crawford, lead rules designer of dnd, has said the opposite of what you have. You may rule differently when you're a dm, but don't push it on the community.
2. Not all spells can damage an object. Eldritch blast can't, fire bolt can. The wording is specific for a reason, it's done on purpose. It's an image of you, it's not the same as hitting a creature.
3. That's not an argument. It's literally in the description that you can make OA's from echoes. That's a class feature, it doesn't have to do with objects making oppurtunity attacks. This isn't a summoned creature, it's an object image of you can attack from.
4. The echo, using sentinel (I have to plug this), threatens approaching creatures with OA's, meaning your party can focus on the current enemies while your echoes can keep back the tide. They also provide escape routes and make you nigh impossible to pin down. Nothing can hold an echo knight excluding a solid steel box they can't see out of. Big numbers isn't always the best thing.
5. Objects don't provoke opportunity attacks. Sorry, rules are rules.
6. I haven't a clue why this matters.
7.So they used sacred flame on the echo. Congratulations, they just wasted their one cantrip action on something you can respawn indefinitely. A waste of damage if I've ever seen it, and the echo's done its job immaculately.
8. Read the rules. Avatar isn't used in combat. It's essentially just a superior familiar. A familiar takes an hour to summon, echoes you can pump out. If your dm allows it, deactivating avatar gives you 6 seconds (til the end of your turn) to teleport. I can't imagine it being particularly useful tho. I imagine moving an echo sixty feet up to a ledge and teleport is far more valuable.
You seem to absolutely hate this subclass and be willing to lie about anything to put it down. Please for your own sake, stop posting, research the class, then respond back.
What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it. 2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them 3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care. 4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out 5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago. 6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol 7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM 8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
1: don't assume that people will DM like you would. The echo is an object, and in my games, I would continue to treat it as such. You can still attack an object, and it has a defined AC and HP, so a normal "attack" would still hit it. But spells that SPECIFICALLY target creatures would not affect the echo.
2: So far this is the only correct thing you have said.
3: No, with his logic, the Fighter can take attacks of opportunity through the echo's space. It is not the Echo making the attack of opportunity, but rather the Fighter with an expanded "threat range" or "range" or whatever the PHB/DMG defines it as, since the Fighter can make attacks through their space OR their echoes.
4: Alright, while the spirit of your argument is sound (I'll give you that), if a player wants to spread their actions that thin, that's their problem, not a problem with the mechanics. And besides, if a Fighter is getting all the attention, that's the Casters who are free to nuke things, which is the very definition of teamwork.
5: What in the hell are you actually talking about here???
6: Okay, sure, a creature can just stay 35 feet away from the echo. But uh, reach weapons are a thing still. So it'd have to be 45 feet away. Is it 100% viable? No, but it IS a thing that can happen if things line up.
7: If a spell specifically says "target creature," then no, the echo cannot be targeted period. Normal attacks can still work, as stated before.
8: Save or suck spells, most of them (to my current off the top of my head knowledge) do not specify target creature, so yes that's fair and valid targetting. As for making yourself blind and deaf, yes, sure that is also true and valid, but the 1000 feet range is still also able to go straight up if you wanted to. As far as the multiple attacks... well, that's true. I'll give you that.
so out of your 8 points, you have... 1.5 correct.
Thank you, I'm getting kind of tired of this guy. I don't know how many times people are going to have to tell him this stuff.
What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it. 2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them 3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care. 4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out 5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago. 6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol 7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM 8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
Wow. Just wow. Another post full of crap. Some others have already corrected you, but I definitely should get something clear. I follow RAW. You follow whatever twisted version of RAI you have that makes you think that Echo Knights have to suck, because you clearly do not want this subclass to be good.
It can act like a creature, WHEN YOU TELL IT TO! IT ISN'T INDEPENDENT! IT DEPENDS ON YOU TO TELL IT WHAT TO DO! It is basically a machine, walking, animated by your control. It isn't a creature. It doesn't act like a creature, because: IT DOESN'T ACT! YOU ACT, THROUGH IT! Imagine it as a portal. It is a moving portal, shaped like you, that moves around, and you can teleport your attacks through it! It is an object, like a portal, it can be attacked! ANYTHING IN THE GAME CAN BE ATTACKED THAT IS AN OBJECT OR CREATURE. IT IS NOT IMMUNE TO ATTACKS BECAUSE IT IS AN OBJECT, IT CAN BE ATTACKED LIKE A BARBARIAN CAN ATTACK A DOOR WITH A GREATAXE! (What attacks in the game require creatures? That is a very general falicious statement backed up by no evidence on your part. If you make a claim like that, back it up!)
I cannot find any spells that require objects to make saving throws. I know there are exceptions, like vehicles have to make saving throws, occasionally, but most spells that can affect objects (like Blight or Fireball) specify exactly what they do to objects without making a saving throw, because an inanimate tree can't dodge a fireball, it instantly catches on fire. Blight specifies that it instantly withers plants, no saving throw needed. Shatter may be the spell you were thinking of, but it says, "A creature made of inorganic material such as stone, crystal, or metal has disadvantage on the saving throw. A nonmagical object that isn't being worn or carried also takes damage if it is in the spell's area." I might be wrong, but no spells require saving throws from objects, because objects don't have a will, and cannot dodge a spell, or make a mental saving throw against damage.
No, by my logic, AN ECHO DOESN'T MAKE AN OPPORTUNITY ATTACK! THE CHARACTER DOES, FROM THE POSITION OF THE ECHO! ECHOES ARE BASICALLY PORTALS FOR YOUR ATTACKS, THEY DON'T MAKE THEIR OWN ATTACKS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A WILL!
It is bad tactics if you have your echo near a hostile melee attacker if you want it to not get attacked. You don't put your fragile antique vase next to a werewolf if you want it to not get smashed. If you would prefer to having the vase destroyed than your sister, keep it next to the the attacker, so that attack doesn't go on your sister! If you want any chance of the echo making an opportunity attack, keep it next to the werewolf. If you want to use your level 10 ability to make sure that your sister doesn't get crushed, keep the echo next to the attacker, especially because you can SUMMON IT BACK AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT! What is your point? You're now claiming that having an echo makes you deal less damage? What alternate dimension do you have your head in, because now you think having abilities that increase your chance of doing damage suddenly make you do less damage!?!?!?
Echoes are not creatures! ONLY CREATURES TRIGGER OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS! THEY "totally" CANNOT BE THE TARGET OF AN OPPORTUNITY ATTACK BECAUSE: THEY!!! ARE!!! NOT!!! CREATURES!!! If you want to be a terrible, horrible, stupid DM, sure. Go ahead. Let this subclass be totally useless by dismantling every single ability they have by your terrible interpretation of the "rules." STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION!!!
Who cares if you think that using an Action Surge to dash is a waste of that ability? The players will do what they have to do if they have to catch up to someone! That's not a rebuttal! That is your opinion on the proper use of action surges! My point with my initial statement on this is that the Echo isn't the one that does the catching up to a creature you absolutely need to catch up to! That isn't their job, that is your job! I honestly have no idea what you want the echo to be able to do. If you want to increase the movement of echoes, you do so, but that isn't what they are supposed to be able to do. Stop trying to comeback at me with BS!
"Flame-like radiance descends on a creatureyou can see within range." I wish I didn't have to say anything else, but apparently you don't care about that one word that I have emboldened, underlined, and increased font size on. Sacred Flame requires a creature to damage! ANY SPELL THAT SPECIFIES THAT IT CAN TARGET A CREATURECANNOT TARGET OBJECTS!!! Echoes are not creatures. ECHOES ARE NOT CREATURES!!! ECHOES ARE NOT CREATURES!!!Is that enough, or do I need a jackhammer to pound that little bit of information into your skull?
What is your point here? Seriously, you didn't even try to rebut my statement, you were just making a dumb statement about being blind and deaf. You don't need eyes or ears if your companions are around you! You can have your fellow adventurers guard you! This is no different from what Wizards/Warlocks with a familiar can do! What the hell are you trying to get across? That doesn't disprove my point in any way. Also, you can teleport to it while you are seeing through its position, in the current writing. This isn't the intention of the ability, but it is legal RAW in the current form!
There are a few things that you apparently are not able to get into your brain. You need to understand that it is okay that echoes only have one hit point, because you can summon them back as a bonus action FOREVER! Echoes aren't creatures! Echoes are not threats on their own, they require you to command it to act!
Like others have said, stop assuming what other DMs will rule things, because if they rule things the way you do, this subclass sucks. If they rule it the way EVERYONE ELSE DOES/SHOULD, it is an awesome subclass, versatile, and has more attacks than most other fighters.
NO OBJECTS HAVE SAVING THROWS UNLESS SOMETHING DIRECTLY CONFLICTS THIS GENERAL RULE! (YOU CANNOT MIND SPIKE A ROCK, LIKE YOU SAID THEY COULD! IT AGAIN SPECIFIES THAT IT TARGETS CREATURES! ONLY CREATURES!)
You have no legitimate defense against what I and everyone else is saying so you make up BS rulings that you say "Any DM in their right mind would rule it this way", because you have no real way to deflect my rebuttal, so you post flaming bull-crap comments with no real reason on why this subclass sucks.
(What the hell are you talking about with the 1d4 more damage? Where did this even come from? Stop making up crap. I am generally a calm person, but I don't react well to crap, and statements made of it.)
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What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it. 2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them 3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care. 4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out 5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago. 6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol 7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM 8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
1: don't assume that people will DM like you would. The echo is an object, and in my games, I would continue to treat it as such. You can still attack an object, and it has a defined AC and HP, so a normal "attack" would still hit it. But spells that SPECIFICALLY target creatures would not affect the echo.
2: So far this is the only correct thing you have said.
3: No, with his logic, the Fighter can take attacks of opportunity through the echo's space. It is not the Echo making the attack of opportunity, but rather the Fighter with an expanded "threat range" or "range" or whatever the PHB/DMG defines it as, since the Fighter can make attacks through their space OR their echoes.
4: Alright, while the spirit of your argument is sound (I'll give you that), if a player wants to spread their actions that thin, that's their problem, not a problem with the mechanics. And besides, if a Fighter is getting all the attention, that's the Casters who are free to nuke things, which is the very definition of teamwork.
5: What in the hell are you actually talking about here???
6: Okay, sure, a creature can just stay 35 feet away from the echo. But uh, reach weapons are a thing still. So it'd have to be 45 feet away. Is it 100% viable? No, but it IS a thing that can happen if things line up.
7: If a spell specifically says "target creature," then no, the echo cannot be targeted period. Normal attacks can still work, as stated before.
8: Save or suck spells, most of them (to my current off the top of my head knowledge) do not specify target creature, so yes that's fair and valid targetting. As for making yourself blind and deaf, yes, sure that is also true and valid, but the 1000 feet range is still also able to go straight up if you wanted to. As far as the multiple attacks... well, that's true. I'll give you that.
so out of your 8 points, you have... 1.5 correct.
Thank you, I'm getting kind of tired of this guy. I don't know how many times people are going to have to tell him this stuff.
Thank you as well. I am morally stuck here correcting his crap, I am happy to have you guys backing me up.
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I’m going to put a link to my echo knight analysis here. I believe you could use it, ProxyJames. To know a classes weaknesses, you should at least know the class.
I’m going to put a link to my echo knight analysis here. I believe you could use it, ProxyJames. To know a classes weaknesses, you should at least know the class.
yes I do know the class and the problem is that it has no strengths, also before you write something you should always double check the rules and know the difference between rules as written and rules as intended, for instanced everyone though you could use the avatar to teleport up to 1000 feet witch is not the cause as confirmed by jeremy crawford. I have played ALOT and I have DMed alot, I have been in both high and low games, the way you guys want this class to preform is having a invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything, this is not the case, you have a very fragile thing that dies in one hit and will have a max AC of 20 at level 17 that lets you preform a extra attack once per turn up to 5 times per long rest, it is extremely unreliable because if it gets countered hard your are just a basic fighter and the only real benefit from it is the extra attack witch isn't that strong. if a DM really wanted to he could have a creature using ranged weapons and spells hanging back and holding a action to shoot the echo as soon as its summoned. combat has a flow to it and its heavily based on the action economy, most of the tactics that would actually make the echo useful has several turns of set up witch is several turns of you doing nothing hence decreasing your groups action economy to benefit no one, combat 101: pick one creature and put it down as fast as you can, the less turns they get the more likely you are to win, also because the echo knight lacks the raw burst damage of the other classes it falls behind in damage and because it doesn't really do anything to support the team other than take one hit that may or may not hit is all its gets (Shadow Martyr has to be used BEFORE anyone sees the attack roll so you could just waste a reaction on nothing). it doesn't really provide any real battle field control even with the threat of attacks of opportunity because the creatures within 30 feet of you are going to run in your face anyways and the creatures outside of 30 foot radius wont care, as a battle master with a longbow or heavy crossbow you have COMPLETE control of everything on the battlefield being able to fear creatures on the backline to stop them from attacking or disarm creatures with giant weapons to lower there damage, champion does this by just being a crit machine and running in, samurai pretty much provides the same bonus as echo knight but doesn't suck at it, eldritch knight can support the group with spells and later on cast haste on themselfs so the casters can cast another target, arcane archer can trip up and disable creatures outright, cavalier can punish foes that target anyone but them and has total battlefield coverage on a mount. echo knight...one extra attack and maybe stop one other attack, as I said before having two echos later on makes 0 difference because you only have one bonus action and one reaction that may or may not stop a attack, if you really want to be a class that does the same thing but better be a war cleric. also lastly I may state that the only argument that people have for it is that ITS A OBJECT SO SPELLS DON'T EFFECT IT and the funny part I bet alot of these people have used spells to attack doors, nets or other things of that nature, if it has AC, HP and can move around, anything that can effect a creature can effect it, though I would give it immunity to psychic and poison damage for obvious reasons, but if you ever play this class get ready to summon that echo ALOT because the DM is going to use every opportunity to shut it down and as I was saying earlier once its gone you are basic fighter, all the other fighter classes can't be stopped from using there abilities, many don't even need a weapon! many subclasses don't need anything to work, they just need to show up and do there thing, echo knight needs a multitude of things to work right: can't be fighting smart enemies that will hold attacks to kill it, can't have any type of AoE or environment damage, can't be a anti magic area, has to be within 30 feet of the summoner, on top of that if you have disadvantage or can't for some reason the echo will have disadvantage or won't be able to attack as well as it sates "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack." note that it says "any attack you make that action can originate from your space or the echo's space" meaning the echo is not making the attack YOU ARE, so if you can't attack or have disadvantage it does too (same goes for having advantage on your attack though) also you have to actually be able to SEE what the echo is attacking, if you are behind a wall with full cover you can't make any attacks because you can't attack things you can't see or take reactions on things you can't see for that matter.
You talk about action economy a lot, but fail to understand that enemies have action economy as well. That ranged unit that stays back just to attack the Echo is wasting their action economy. Their dmg is basically pointless because they are attacking something that can come back every turn.
Here is the, in a vacuum, scenario: Ranged unit does 10 dmg every turn and has two targets: a Wizard with 50 hp and the Echo with 1 Hp. They can either spend every turn attacking the Wizard or every turn attacking the Echo.
First option: The Ranged unit attacks only the Wizard, and in five turns the wizard is dead. Now the Ranged unit has only one target.d
Second option: The Ranged unit attacks only the Echo, and in five turns the Echo is still getting summoned. the Ranged unit still has two tragets.
Another thing i want to point out is the Echo Knight's movement potential, since you spent a while arguing that it is trash. The Echo does not disappear until the end of your turn if it moves more the 30 ft from the original Echo Knight. That allows the Echo Knight to summon the Echo 15 ft away then move an additional 30 ft placing the Echo 45 ft away from the Echo Knight. Now the Echo Knight uses 15 ft of its own movement to teleport 45 ft. The Echo Knight then moves the additional 15 ft, uses it action to dash and moves 30 more feet for a grand total of 90 ft per turn. The same as a rouge with 30 ft of movement speed moving, action dashing, and bonus action dashing.
You attack as if you were in the echos position. It does not have ammo so you lose what you use like normal.
Funny you should mention ammo, it only validates the need for you to make an attack by yourself, including when you are in hiding. Like, what do you do with your arrow/bolt when you attack from the echo's position? Does it just disappear from your inventory, or do you have to draw your (cross)bow, aim and shoot? Also what happens with the ammo after you make the shot? Does it teleport moments after to the echo's position?
Echo is a solid subclass. It allows for an extra target that enemies have to deal with. It is immune to conditions. Do you have a smart DM that likes to grapple your fighter in combat? well, stay grappled. Dont waste time and actions trying to break it. keep tied down with that opponent, and let your echo keep fighting. Have you gotten yourself tied down with multiple enemies but the wizard is in trouble? send your echo for aid. And on the next turn tp to the wizard.
The echo utilizes positioning in combat, wasting the enemies actions, and allows the fighter to have some of the best mobility in the game, competing with monks and rogues. And all of that is just at 3rd level.
I’m going to put a link to my echo knight analysis here. I believe you could use it, ProxyJames. To know a classes weaknesses, you should at least know the class.
yes I do know the class and the problem is that it has no strengths, also before you write something you should always double check the rules and know the difference between rules as written and rules as intended, for instanced everyone though you could use the avatar to teleport up to 1000 feet witch is not the cause as confirmed by jeremy crawford. I have played ALOT and I have DMed alot, I have been in both high and low games, the way you guys want this class to preform is having a invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything, this is not the case, you have a very fragile thing that dies in one hit and will have a max AC of 20 at level 17 that lets you preform a extra attack once per turn up to 5 times per long rest, it is extremely unreliable because if it gets countered hard your are just a basic fighter and the only real benefit from it is the extra attack witch isn't that strong. if a DM really wanted to he could have a creature using ranged weapons and spells hanging back and holding a action to shoot the echo as soon as its summoned. combat has a flow to it and its heavily based on the action economy, most of the tactics that would actually make the echo useful has several turns of set up witch is several turns of you doing nothing hence decreasing your groups action economy to benefit no one, combat 101: pick one creature and put it down as fast as you can, the less turns they get the more likely you are to win, also because the echo knight lacks the raw burst damage of the other classes it falls behind in damage and because it doesn't really do anything to support the team other than take one hit that may or may not hit is all its gets (Shadow Martyr has to be used BEFORE anyone sees the attack roll so you could just waste a reaction on nothing). it doesn't really provide any real battle field control even with the threat of attacks of opportunity because the creatures within 30 feet of you are going to run in your face anyways and the creatures outside of 30 foot radius wont care, as a battle master with a longbow or heavy crossbow you have COMPLETE control of everything on the battlefield being able to fear creatures on the backline to stop them from attacking or disarm creatures with giant weapons to lower there damage, champion does this by just being a crit machine and running in, samurai pretty much provides the same bonus as echo knight but doesn't suck at it, eldritch knight can support the group with spells and later on cast haste on themselfs so the casters can cast another target, arcane archer can trip up and disable creatures outright, cavalier can punish foes that target anyone but them and has total battlefield coverage on a mount. echo knight...one extra attack and maybe stop one other attack, as I said before having two echos later on makes 0 difference because you only have one bonus action and one reaction that may or may not stop a attack, if you really want to be a class that does the same thing but better be a war cleric. also lastly I may state that the only argument that people have for it is that ITS A OBJECT SO SPELLS DON'T EFFECT IT and the funny part I bet alot of these people have used spells to attack doors, nets or other things of that nature, if it has AC, HP and can move around, anything that can effect a creature can effect it, though I would give it immunity to psychic and poison damage for obvious reasons, but if you ever play this class get ready to summon that echo ALOT because the DM is going to use every opportunity to shut it down and as I was saying earlier once its gone you are basic fighter, all the other fighter classes can't be stopped from using there abilities, many don't even need a weapon! many subclasses don't need anything to work, they just need to show up and do there thing, echo knight needs a multitude of things to work right: can't be fighting smart enemies that will hold attacks to kill it, can't have any type of AoE or environment damage, can't be a anti magic area, has to be within 30 feet of the summoner, on top of that if you have disadvantage or can't for some reason the echo will have disadvantage or won't be able to attack as well as it sates "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack." note that it says "any attack you make that action can originate from your space or the echo's space" meaning the echo is not making the attack YOU ARE, so if you can't attack or have disadvantage it does too (same goes for having advantage on your attack though) also you have to actually be able to SEE what the echo is attacking, if you are behind a wall with full cover you can't make any attacks because you can't attack things you can't see or take reactions on things you can't see for that matter.
1. You’re now trying to back up what you say with what Jeremy Crawford has said, despite the fact you’ve ignored his rules before, like the fact the echo can move vertically and is not a creature. Don’t be contradicting, it ruins your credibility. I don’t want an invulnerable copy of it. 2. Where you see weakness because the echo only has 1 health, I see strength. Any cantrip that can target objects used on a 1 hp object you can respawn instantly is a complete waste of a cantrip, as it takes an entire action and there’s not a complete guarantee it will hit, as it’s almost like it’s hitting you. You trade a bonus action for an action or possibly more. That’s a net positive action economy gain, it’s just not the orthodox way you’re looking for. 3. Yes if the DM wanted to metagame counter your class, the dm could. They could also counter arcane archer by making the battlefield a tiny hallway, or numerous things. If an enemy is focused on shooting something you have an infinite amount of, it’s not focusing on your team nuking the rest. Despite what you think, an echo dying isn’t a bad thing, it’s why there’s an infinite amount. You just can’t seem to think about teamwork, only dice, and the quote before about having the echo add an extra 1d4 to your damage by summoning it over yourself just proves it.
3. Yes some do take a couple turns to do. Of the tactics I’ve found, it’s a maximum of two. The 75ft (45ft if you don’t move) range happens in one turn. You could do it every turn. 4. It’s not about burst damage. Is all you think about damage? Have you ever role played? You must really dislike early level bards. The echo provides a distraction and keeps the knight in the midline to protect spellcasters (at least that’s how I do it). The team still takes them down one by one, but if one slips past there’s a full health knight standing between them and the teams core still. 5. If a creature runs straight at you and ignores the echo, OA it. With sentinel, the creature can no longer approach. If it reaches you just teleport and smack them with the echo, rinse wash repeat. You’ll gain more attacks on the enemy and the enemy will gain less attacks on you. This is why a champion would lose to an echo knight.
6. Echo knight gains one extra attack x amount of times. With 18 con and 16 strength let’s say, you’d get at least a total of 16 damage assuming everything hits but you roll the unluckiest damage possible. A near improbability. They can use the echo to hit creatures attacking in the air, teleport to heights enemy archers may be using to snipe at teammates, waste enemies actions on a 1 hp object you can respawn indefinitely. The big bad hits my echo, 27 damage, that’s 27 damage wasted that nobody has to take, I’ll just respawn my echo on my turn and hit him from afar with it. Even optimization guides have this class as top tier, check out the 5e Fighter Handbook, it’s considered better than Champion. 7. Having two echoes means you now have two extra threats on the field. If they only get rid of one you have a teleport option to escape damage.
8. The wordings are specific. Spells that only target creatures are purposeful. You can play differently and ignore the rules because you hate echo knight, but rules are rules.
9. If your dm is taking every opportunity to shut down your class, your dm isn’t fun. Are you one of those dm versus players type people? Whatever floats your boat, but remember every dm is different and they’re not all going to ignore the purposeful design of games to bend to your will. If your dm is playing dumb creatures as creatures that somehow know all your tactics, he’s metagaming. 10. If enemies hold attacks to hit your echo they are once again wasting tons of energy on an object with 1 hp, and the echo is being extremely valuable. A held action takes an action and a reaction that are now wasted on not even hurting the party, congrats you’re using the action economy you espouse so much very well.
11. If there’s an AoE environment it might not even hurt the object. Acid on the floor? FLOAT THE ECHO. How hard is that? Creature auras only effect creatures, an oath of ancients buff aura doesn’t make a table or floor resistant to magic, it makes its allies resistant to magic. A smart echo knight will avoid these easily, and if all the focus is on stopping the echo knight, it’s doing its job incredibly well because the rest of the team is unrestrained.
12 I should point out anti-magic is going to hurt the echo knight as much as it hurts an Eldritch Knight or a Rune Knight.
13. I’m well aware the echoes attack comes from you. I’ve literally told people the same thing on the forum. I haven’t a clue why you’re telling me. An echo knight with disadvantage is the same as any other fighter with disadvantage. Stuff happens man, the other fighters aren’t immune to it. If it’s a grapple, an echo knight will probably have an easier time getting out though.
You talk about action economy a lot, but fail to understand that enemies have action economy as well. That ranged unit that stays back just to attack the Echo is wasting their action economy. Their dmg is basically pointless because they are attacking something that can come back every turn.
Here is the, in a vacuum, scenario: Ranged unit does 10 dmg every turn and has two targets: a Wizard with 50 hp and the Echo with 1 Hp. They can either spend every turn attacking the Wizard or every turn attacking the Echo.
First option: The Ranged unit attacks only the Wizard, and in five turns the wizard is dead. Now the Ranged unit has only one target.d
Second option: The Ranged unit attacks only the Echo, and in five turns the Echo is still getting summoned. the Ranged unit still has two tragets.
Another thing i want to point out is the Echo Knight's movement potential, since you spent a while arguing that it is trash. The Echo does not disappear until the end of your turn if it moves more the 30 ft from the original Echo Knight. That allows the Echo Knight to summon the Echo 15 ft away then move an additional 30 ft placing the Echo 45 ft away from the Echo Knight. Now the Echo Knight uses 15 ft of its own movement to teleport 45 ft. The Echo Knight then moves the additional 15 ft, uses it action to dash and moves 30 more feet for a grand total of 90 ft per turn. The same as a rouge with 30 ft of movement speed moving, action dashing, and bonus action dashing.
I didn’t even figure out that dash tactic. Well done, and well said. I think Proxy has his own idea of what action economy is, and that’s dealing damage til something is dead and can’t act anymore, and anything else is heresy
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I would agree. Especially out of combat I would actually say at 7th level the Echo Knight is better due to the free scouting ability.
Yep. I agree.
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True, the wording as of now allows it, but again, according to Crawford that wasn't the intent.
I mean that as I picture it, if you want to attack from the point of your echo, you have to make an attack yourself, since this is your image (otherwise it makes no sense for you to be able to make less attacks, if your image is independent, kinda like the problem with Beast Master). So swinging a sword from barrels that you are hiding behind should logically give away your position (or at least allow enemies to make a perception check with advantage or smth).
You can also be out of enemy's sight and hearing, but in that case you can't see them either, so you attack blindly with all the downsides. You could use Avatar ability to see through the echo of course, but since the intent was that you can't do anything in that state, its useless in that regard.
You attack as if you were in the echos position. It does not have ammo so you lose what you use like normal.
Ok so you have a few things wrong when it comes to the Echo.
Legion of One allows you to make 2 echos, those echos can be 30 feet from you in a fight. They cant flank or sneak bonus but you CAN attack from each one in a single turn as RAW clearly states. So you could engage 3 targets simultaneously if you have 3 or more attacks in an action. This may or may not be useful in combat depending on the situation, but I can think of a few situations where it helps immensely.
As far as summoning within 15' yes its limited, but you and the echo can move as a pack in your turn as its movement does not count against you. I'm thinking Held actions here. Imagine than you stroll up and draw attention and hold your reaction. You say "I will wait until the target reaches this point and then I will summon my echo next to it." The target reaches said point on it's way to you and triggers your reaction. As it moves out of the threat range of the echo it gets an OoA. That's 1 free hit before it gets to you. It might not seem like much but it was free damage. If there were other enemies following the first than the echo now serves as a distraction buying you 1 turn before they join the other and engage you.
As far as moving the echo, RAW states ANY direction. That means vertical. You could use it to engage aerial opponents and use melee attacks. Let's be honest, if your going for dex builds, fighter is not the cream of the crop, there are better choices. So this let's you focus on str attacks and still be able to fight aerial combatants.
This class is built for teamwork. And it delivers. With the right equipment it's a tank, healer or sniper. It has extended mobility and can get you to places other fighter classes couldnt easily reach. With a good DM who plays creatures as creatures and not like they know your tactics it is an amazing class.
If your looking for brute strength than no, the echo knight is not the class for you. But if you like tactics and you have any imagination than this class has options for you.
Couldn’t have said it better. The strength comes from your ability to maneuver and strike. I cannot stress enough how good sentinel is for echo knight and how much it contributes to these tactics. Also with the new errata on sentinel, we may be looking at echoes benefiting even more, although that’s just wishful thinking
so there are alot of things wrong with your post, first off, attacking more than one creature in only good when fighting things that die in one hit, otherwise your just doing less overall damage and ruining your action economy, this is a DM tactic for dealing damage to more than one player with a creature that has multi attack so you don't outright kill players, but if your fighting 3 creatures with a equal CR then you want to take them out one at a time so there action economy goes down, spreading yourself thin will just make you a larger target and you will be the first to go down.
also engaging creatures with flying that are not melee attackers is not possible as they will always have more or equal movement to the echo so if it has ranged attacks it can take one dash and then forever be safe from the echo....or just attack it and kill it in one hit and then you have to summon it and get it 90 feet in the air all over again.
also as for the equipment its limited to your melee weapon so it has a range of AT BEST 10 feet , it is ment for extra damage and that is all its good for, it can't use cure wound or hold a potion so healer is out and its range is limited to its weapon and movement.
1. it acts like a creature, its able to attack and be targeted, most attacks say "attack a creature" not "attack a object" by that logic its invulnerable, and no DM would use that logic, so the DM will treat it like another PC on the field, damage from auras otherwise players would be able to circumvent many challenges like a hallways that emits necrotic damage as you walk though it.
2. any spell that has a area of effect can damage it, some spells even specify objects have disadvantage on the save and most area of effects do damage the environment around them
3.with your logic, the echo can't take attacks of opportunity because its when one creature moves away from another and well "the echo is a object". but also having the echo stand near something else is only useful when you are out of charges for the extra attack and that is IF the creature moves, if it is a ranged creature its not really going to care.
4.its called tactics and supporting action economy, kill as many as you can as fast as you can, spreading yourself thin just means your dealing less damage to more things, but as early on your going to maybe have 3 uses of the extra attack your only choice is to send it somewhere else but your best bet is to kill the thing in front of you unless you want to attract all the attention and get yourself knocked out
5.they totally can be, it is a thing that other creatures can see, attack and interact with, if you don't agree then by the same logic it can't make them as well because it is not threading anything and that goes back to something I just typed awhile ago.
6. ok using action surge to dash is called wasting a action sure, shame on you, and if you want the echo to be effect the way you want it to be it HAS to be able to catch up and harass other creatures but on that note...the echo poofs if its 30 feet away from you, creatures can avoid it by standing 35 feet away from you lol
7.I would agree stuff like toll of the dead won't work on it because...well it doesn't have life, but many other suck or save like sacred flame that hurls a magic orb at things or anything with a attack roll it can be targeted with, rule of thing if a player can target a object with the spell so can the DM
8.the echo can only stay 1000 feet away if you make yourself BLIND AND DEAF, while your using the avatar version of it you can't teleport to it either, so your using a action to make yourself blind and deaf (free advantage) to move it 30 feet a turn...that one is not going to happen and when you start the avatar form it poofs and using the avatar from combat isn't great because it still has 1 HP. lastly OH WOW YOU STOPPED ONE ATTACK HERE IS 3 MORE!, welcome to level 10+ encounters, also shadow Martyr uses your reaction so even if you have two you can only do it once not that it will do you any good.
you are trying some real shenanigans with this that won't fly with DMs on top of that you get whinny when someone points out where your clearly wrong and then try to pull out a ruling that doesn't really apply like using the fact that the echo is a object, those rules apply motionless objects that do nothing...like a wooden box or a rock and even then most objects have ACs, HP and saves and can be targeted by most attacks and abilities, nothing says a player can't cast mind spike on a rock. also you try to pull out these tactics that don't really work and take turns of setting up while everyone is getting there ass kicked, this class looks cool and all but its just not as good as other fighter classes, maybe it if worked like you summon the echo over yourself and you deal a extra 1d4 sometimes that could be cool but as it stands it doesn't really DO anything any other fighter can't do better.
1: don't assume that people will DM like you would. The echo is an object, and in my games, I would continue to treat it as such. You can still attack an object, and it has a defined AC and HP, so a normal "attack" would still hit it. But spells that SPECIFICALLY target creatures would not affect the echo.
2: So far this is the only correct thing you have said.
3: No, with his logic, the Fighter can take attacks of opportunity through the echo's space. It is not the Echo making the attack of opportunity, but rather the Fighter with an expanded "threat range" or "range" or whatever the PHB/DMG defines it as, since the Fighter can make attacks through their space OR their echoes.
4: Alright, while the spirit of your argument is sound (I'll give you that), if a player wants to spread their actions that thin, that's their problem, not a problem with the mechanics. And besides, if a Fighter is getting all the attention, that's the Casters who are free to nuke things, which is the very definition of teamwork.
5: What in the hell are you actually talking about here???
6: Okay, sure, a creature can just stay 35 feet away from the echo. But uh, reach weapons are a thing still. So it'd have to be 45 feet away. Is it 100% viable? No, but it IS a thing that can happen if things line up.
7: If a spell specifically says "target creature," then no, the echo cannot be targeted period. Normal attacks can still work, as stated before.
8: Save or suck spells, most of them (to my current off the top of my head knowledge) do not specify target creature, so yes that's fair and valid targetting. As for making yourself blind and deaf, yes, sure that is also true and valid, but the 1000 feet range is still also able to go straight up if you wanted to. As far as the multiple attacks... well, that's true. I'll give you that.
so out of your 8 points, you have... 1.5 correct.
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1. it's purposefully an object in the rules. I've posted the source to it elsewhere. It's not able to attack like a creature. You're able to attack from it's space. It doesn't attack, you do. It's like invoke duplicity. Maybe in your games it's a creature, but mainstream it's an object. Don't post something objectively false like this. Jeremy Crawford, lead rules designer of dnd, has said the opposite of what you have. You may rule differently when you're a dm, but don't push it on the community.
2. Not all spells can damage an object. Eldritch blast can't, fire bolt can. The wording is specific for a reason, it's done on purpose. It's an image of you, it's not the same as hitting a creature.
3. That's not an argument. It's literally in the description that you can make OA's from echoes. That's a class feature, it doesn't have to do with objects making oppurtunity attacks. This isn't a summoned creature, it's an object image of you can attack from.
4. The echo, using sentinel (I have to plug this), threatens approaching creatures with OA's, meaning your party can focus on the current enemies while your echoes can keep back the tide. They also provide escape routes and make you nigh impossible to pin down. Nothing can hold an echo knight excluding a solid steel box they can't see out of. Big numbers isn't always the best thing.
5. Objects don't provoke opportunity attacks. Sorry, rules are rules.
6. I haven't a clue why this matters.
7.So they used sacred flame on the echo. Congratulations, they just wasted their one cantrip action on something you can respawn indefinitely. A waste of damage if I've ever seen it, and the echo's done its job immaculately.
8. Read the rules. Avatar isn't used in combat. It's essentially just a superior familiar. A familiar takes an hour to summon, echoes you can pump out. If your dm allows it, deactivating avatar gives you 6 seconds (til the end of your turn) to teleport. I can't imagine it being particularly useful tho. I imagine moving an echo sixty feet up to a ledge and teleport is far more valuable.
You seem to absolutely hate this subclass and be willing to lie about anything to put it down. Please for your own sake, stop posting, research the class, then respond back.
Thank you, I'm getting kind of tired of this guy. I don't know how many times people are going to have to tell him this stuff.
Wow. Just wow. Another post full of crap. Some others have already corrected you, but I definitely should get something clear. I follow RAW. You follow whatever twisted version of RAI you have that makes you think that Echo Knights have to suck, because you clearly do not want this subclass to be good.
There are a few things that you apparently are not able to get into your brain. You need to understand that it is okay that echoes only have one hit point, because you can summon them back as a bonus action FOREVER! Echoes aren't creatures! Echoes are not threats on their own, they require you to command it to act!
Like others have said, stop assuming what other DMs will rule things, because if they rule things the way you do, this subclass sucks. If they rule it the way EVERYONE ELSE DOES/SHOULD, it is an awesome subclass, versatile, and has more attacks than most other fighters.
NO OBJECTS HAVE SAVING THROWS UNLESS SOMETHING DIRECTLY CONFLICTS THIS GENERAL RULE! (YOU CANNOT MIND SPIKE A ROCK, LIKE YOU SAID THEY COULD! IT AGAIN SPECIFIES THAT IT TARGETS CREATURES! ONLY CREATURES!)
You have no legitimate defense against what I and everyone else is saying so you make up BS rulings that you say "Any DM in their right mind would rule it this way", because you have no real way to deflect my rebuttal, so you post flaming bull-crap comments with no real reason on why this subclass sucks.
(What the hell are you talking about with the 1d4 more damage? Where did this even come from? Stop making up crap. I am generally a calm person, but I don't react well to crap, and statements made of it.)
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Thank you as well. I am morally stuck here correcting his crap, I am happy to have you guys backing me up.
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I’m going to put a link to my echo knight analysis here. I believe you could use it, ProxyJames. To know a classes weaknesses, you should at least know the class.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/62177-in-depth-echo-knight
I encourage you to respond
yes I do know the class and the problem is that it has no strengths, also before you write something you should always double check the rules and know the difference between rules as written and rules as intended, for instanced everyone though you could use the avatar to teleport up to 1000 feet witch is not the cause as confirmed by jeremy crawford. I have played ALOT and I have DMed alot, I have been in both high and low games, the way you guys want this class to preform is having a invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything, this is not the case, you have a very fragile thing that dies in one hit and will have a max AC of 20 at level 17 that lets you preform a extra attack once per turn up to 5 times per long rest, it is extremely unreliable because if it gets countered hard your are just a basic fighter and the only real benefit from it is the extra attack witch isn't that strong. if a DM really wanted to he could have a creature using ranged weapons and spells hanging back and holding a action to shoot the echo as soon as its summoned.
combat has a flow to it and its heavily based on the action economy, most of the tactics that would actually make the echo useful has several turns of set up witch is several turns of you doing nothing hence decreasing your groups action economy to benefit no one, combat 101: pick one creature and put it down as fast as you can, the less turns they get the more likely you are to win, also because the echo knight lacks the raw burst damage of the other classes it falls behind in damage and because it doesn't really do anything to support the team other than take one hit that may or may not hit is all its gets (Shadow Martyr has to be used BEFORE anyone sees the attack roll so you could just waste a reaction on nothing).
it doesn't really provide any real battle field control even with the threat of attacks of opportunity because the creatures within 30 feet of you are going to run in your face anyways and the creatures outside of 30 foot radius wont care, as a battle master with a longbow or heavy crossbow you have COMPLETE control of everything on the battlefield being able to fear creatures on the backline to stop them from attacking or disarm creatures with giant weapons to lower there damage, champion does this by just being a crit machine and running in, samurai pretty much provides the same bonus as echo knight but doesn't suck at it, eldritch knight can support the group with spells and later on cast haste on themselfs so the casters can cast another target, arcane archer can trip up and disable creatures outright, cavalier can punish foes that target anyone but them and has total battlefield coverage on a mount.
echo knight...one extra attack and maybe stop one other attack, as I said before having two echos later on makes 0 difference because you only have one bonus action and one reaction that may or may not stop a attack, if you really want to be a class that does the same thing but better be a war cleric.
also lastly I may state that the only argument that people have for it is that ITS A OBJECT SO SPELLS DON'T EFFECT IT and the funny part I bet alot of these people have used spells to attack doors, nets or other things of that nature, if it has AC, HP and can move around, anything that can effect a creature can effect it, though I would give it immunity to psychic and poison damage for obvious reasons, but if you ever play this class get ready to summon that echo ALOT because the DM is going to use every opportunity to shut it down and as I was saying earlier once its gone you are basic fighter, all the other fighter classes can't be stopped from using there abilities, many don't even need a weapon! many subclasses don't need anything to work, they just need to show up and do there thing, echo knight needs a multitude of things to work right: can't be fighting smart enemies that will hold attacks to kill it, can't have any type of AoE or environment damage, can't be a anti magic area, has to be within 30 feet of the summoner, on top of that if you have disadvantage or can't for some reason the echo will have disadvantage or won't be able to attack as well as it sates "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack." note that it says "any attack you make that action can originate from your space or the echo's space" meaning the echo is not making the attack YOU ARE, so if you can't attack or have disadvantage it does too (same goes for having advantage on your attack though) also you have to actually be able to SEE what the echo is attacking, if you are behind a wall with full cover you can't make any attacks because you can't attack things you can't see or take reactions on things you can't see for that matter.
You talk about action economy a lot, but fail to understand that enemies have action economy as well. That ranged unit that stays back just to attack the Echo is wasting their action economy. Their dmg is basically pointless because they are attacking something that can come back every turn.
Here is the, in a vacuum, scenario: Ranged unit does 10 dmg every turn and has two targets: a Wizard with 50 hp and the Echo with 1 Hp. They can either spend every turn attacking the Wizard or every turn attacking the Echo.
First option: The Ranged unit attacks only the Wizard, and in five turns the wizard is dead. Now the Ranged unit has only one target.d
Second option: The Ranged unit attacks only the Echo, and in five turns the Echo is still getting summoned. the Ranged unit still has two tragets.
Another thing i want to point out is the Echo Knight's movement potential, since you spent a while arguing that it is trash. The Echo does not disappear until the end of your turn if it moves more the 30 ft from the original Echo Knight. That allows the Echo Knight to summon the Echo 15 ft away then move an additional 30 ft placing the Echo 45 ft away from the Echo Knight. Now the Echo Knight uses 15 ft of its own movement to teleport 45 ft. The Echo Knight then moves the additional 15 ft, uses it action to dash and moves 30 more feet for a grand total of 90 ft per turn. The same as a rouge with 30 ft of movement speed moving, action dashing, and bonus action dashing.
Funny you should mention ammo, it only validates the need for you to make an attack by yourself, including when you are in hiding. Like, what do you do with your arrow/bolt when you attack from the echo's position? Does it just disappear from your inventory, or do you have to draw your (cross)bow, aim and shoot? Also what happens with the ammo after you make the shot? Does it teleport moments after to the echo's position?
Echo is a solid subclass. It allows for an extra target that enemies have to deal with. It is immune to conditions. Do you have a smart DM that likes to grapple your fighter in combat? well, stay grappled. Dont waste time and actions trying to break it. keep tied down with that opponent, and let your echo keep fighting. Have you gotten yourself tied down with multiple enemies but the wizard is in trouble? send your echo for aid. And on the next turn tp to the wizard.
The echo utilizes positioning in combat, wasting the enemies actions, and allows the fighter to have some of the best mobility in the game, competing with monks and rogues. And all of that is just at 3rd level.
1. You’re now trying to back up what you say with what Jeremy Crawford has said, despite the fact you’ve ignored his rules before, like the fact the echo can move vertically and is not a creature. Don’t be contradicting, it ruins your credibility. I don’t want an invulnerable copy of it.
2. Where you see weakness because the echo only has 1 health, I see strength. Any cantrip that can target objects used on a 1 hp object you can respawn instantly is a complete waste of a cantrip, as it takes an entire action and there’s not a complete guarantee it will hit, as it’s almost like it’s hitting you. You trade a bonus action for an action or possibly more. That’s a net positive action economy gain, it’s just not the orthodox way you’re looking for.
3. Yes if the DM wanted to metagame counter your class, the dm could. They could also counter arcane archer by making the battlefield a tiny hallway, or numerous things. If an enemy is focused on shooting something you have an infinite amount of, it’s not focusing on your team nuking the rest. Despite what you think, an echo dying isn’t a bad thing, it’s why there’s an infinite amount. You just can’t seem to think about teamwork, only dice, and the quote before about having the echo add an extra 1d4 to your damage by summoning it over yourself just proves it.
3. Yes some do take a couple turns to do. Of the tactics I’ve found, it’s a maximum of two. The 75ft (45ft if you don’t move) range happens in one turn. You could do it every turn.
4. It’s not about burst damage. Is all you think about damage? Have you ever role played? You must really dislike early level bards. The echo provides a distraction and keeps the knight in the midline to protect spellcasters (at least that’s how I do it). The team still takes them down one by one, but if one slips past there’s a full health knight standing between them and the teams core still.
5. If a creature runs straight at you and ignores the echo, OA it. With sentinel, the creature can no longer approach. If it reaches you just teleport and smack them with the echo, rinse wash repeat. You’ll gain more attacks on the enemy and the enemy will gain less attacks on you. This is why a champion would lose to an echo knight.
6. Echo knight gains one extra attack x amount of times. With 18 con and 16 strength let’s say, you’d get at least a total of 16 damage assuming everything hits but you roll the unluckiest damage possible. A near improbability. They can use the echo to hit creatures attacking in the air, teleport to heights enemy archers may be using to snipe at teammates, waste enemies actions on a 1 hp object you can respawn indefinitely. The big bad hits my echo, 27 damage, that’s 27 damage wasted that nobody has to take, I’ll just respawn my echo on my turn and hit him from afar with it. Even optimization guides have this class as top tier, check out the 5e Fighter Handbook, it’s considered better than Champion.
7. Having two echoes means you now have two extra threats on the field. If they only get rid of one you have a teleport option to escape damage.
8. The wordings are specific. Spells that only target creatures are purposeful. You can play differently and ignore the rules because you hate echo knight, but rules are rules.
9. If your dm is taking every opportunity to shut down your class, your dm isn’t fun. Are you one of those dm versus players type people? Whatever floats your boat, but remember every dm is different and they’re not all going to ignore the purposeful design of games to bend to your will. If your dm is playing dumb creatures as creatures that somehow know all your tactics, he’s metagaming.
10. If enemies hold attacks to hit your echo they are once again wasting tons of energy on an object with 1 hp, and the echo is being extremely valuable. A held action takes an action and a reaction that are now wasted on not even hurting the party, congrats you’re using the action economy you espouse so much very well.
11. If there’s an AoE environment it might not even hurt the object. Acid on the floor? FLOAT THE ECHO. How hard is that? Creature auras only effect creatures, an oath of ancients buff aura doesn’t make a table or floor resistant to magic, it makes its allies resistant to magic. A smart echo knight will avoid these easily, and if all the focus is on stopping the echo knight, it’s doing its job incredibly well because the rest of the team is unrestrained.
12 I should point out anti-magic is going to hurt the echo knight as much as it hurts an Eldritch Knight or a Rune Knight.
13. I’m well aware the echoes attack comes from you. I’ve literally told people the same thing on the forum. I haven’t a clue why you’re telling me. An echo knight with disadvantage is the same as any other fighter with disadvantage. Stuff happens man, the other fighters aren’t immune to it. If it’s a grapple, an echo knight will probably have an easier time getting out though.
I didn’t even figure out that dash tactic. Well done, and well said. I think Proxy has his own idea of what action economy is, and that’s dealing damage til something is dead and can’t act anymore, and anything else is heresy