Firstly, thank you so much to @The_Humble_Giant for this compilation. I have recently joined a 5e campaign after a 15+ year hiatus (raising special needs kids = No Free Time!) (plus I wasn't a fan of 4e). I just reached 3rd level and I am excited to see what I can do with my new Echo Knight abilities. I'm not sure if this is the place to ask, but how would you rule on a player positioning an Echo above an opponent, then swapping places? Could the Knight be prepared for the fall and have some advantage in the ensuing grapple? Would it be a grapple? Or could the Knight cause damage? 200lbs of armor and weapons dropping from some height? I think there are plenty of more easily adjudicated actions available, so I can avoid this if necessary, but I'm curious what you guys would think. (@LeviRocks, please weigh in as well. I've found your opinions on EK very helpful in cutting through so many wrong opinions.) Thanks guys!
By the rules, you can certain position your Echo above an opponent and then swap places. What happens afterwards is beyond the scope of the Echo Knight rules. I would personally would say that you could absolutely be ready for it (you know it is coming and control the timing). And as a DM, I personally would probably grant advantage on the follow-up attack. I would also apply falling damage equality between the Knight and target, since both are taking an impact. I may allow a save to reduce the impact. I may also limit how many times this tactic could be used before an enemy gets wise. But all that said, it is really up to your DM.
Good luck with your new Echo Knight and welcome back to D&D.
Movement 10 (Updated - 4/28) Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space?
A: No, because it occupies a space, and isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
1. I'm not sure I agree with this point. If the object is the same size as the original, normally, it takes up space within the 5ft, but doesn't move (as I understand) or threaten, so is there any reason why allies and enemies can't squeeze past it? Eg typically a human isn't 5ft wide! So as an object, I'd rule anyone can squeeze past it. It would count as difficult terrain to pass, or be squeezed (for the enemy and any echo attacks). I'd also rule echos can't squeeze into spaces themselves as can't move.
2. Regarding the homebrew: In my game, I am using the above (but only recently as I have read more)
3. In our game we have a Kobold echo, as the munchkin wanted to utilise 'pack tactics' whenever possible (and it seems to work RAW!)
4. But as it is small, I am also ruling anyone (allies and enemies) can jump onto and beyond the echo kobold (as 3'11 and so need trained athletics or str 12 or more!) - also means it could be used as a stepping stone. - enemies will provoke from the kobold if he can see it!
5. I can also see no reason why this would not work with wildshape. So I want to play an echo bear!
Great questions and comments @Egrek. I'll try to respond as best I can one at a time. I will add that I'm trying to keep the FAQ as true to RAW as possible, and want to leave it up to DMs to rule as they would like.
Movement 10 (Updated - 4/28) Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space?
A: No, because it occupies a space, and isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
1. I'm not sure I agree with this point. If the object is the same size as the original, normally, it takes up space within the 5ft, but doesn't move (as I understand) or threaten, so is there any reason why allies and enemies can't squeeze past it? Eg typically a human isn't 5ft wide! So as an object, I'd rule anyone can squeeze past it. It would count as difficult terrain to pass, or be squeezed (for the enemy and any echo attacks). I'd also rule echos can't squeeze into spaces themselves as can't move.
By the rules as written, the Echo "is the same size as you, and it occupies its space." When using a grid, "occupies its space" essentially means that other creature can't get by, regardless of it's size. At least by RAW. I believe this assumes that the Echo is moving and not purely a static statue, and it still poses a threat since it can be used for opportunity attacks as well. Thus the same way a PC occupies a space. The complication is that the Echo is, but the rules (see Crawfords ruling), an object. The movement rules state, "You can move through a nonhostile creature's space." But since the Echo is not a creature, there is no real provision for this.
That all said, I personally as a DM would probably treat the Echo the same way as the Knight for the sake of moving through a space. Meaning that I'd allow an ally through the space, but hostile creatures could not pass by the standard movement rules.
2. Regarding the homebrew: In my game, I am using the above (but only recently as I have read more)
Makes sense. I think the real challenge for DMs is trying to figure out what model to use for the Echo. Should they treat it like a creature, object, or image? Or some combination. I tend to treat it as a threatening, semi-substantial illusion.
3. In our game we have a Kobold echo, as the munchkin wanted to utilise 'pack tactics' whenever possible (and it seems to work RAW!)
As a DM I don't know that I'd allow the Echo of the kobold to treat himself as an ally for pact tactics, since it is really the Knight making the attack. But by RAW, it shouldn't matter that the Echo is an object for the sake of Pact Tactics, since it states "You have advantage on an attack roll against a creature if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet".
4. But as it is small, I am also ruling anyone (allies and enemies) can jump onto and beyond the echo kobold (as 3'11 and so need trained athletics or str 12 or more!) - also means it could be used as a stepping stone. - enemies will provoke from the kobold if he can see it!
Makes sense. For better or worse, the rules abstract the creatures size for things like moving around. Granted an echo is technically an object. That said, what you describe makes sense, but I'd allow the Echo/Knight an opportunity attack if an enemy tried to leap over it.
5. I can also see no reason why this would not work with wildshape. So I want to play an echo bear!
An Echo in the form of a bear would definitely be frightening.
How do we detrermine what gets echoed? If a player holds a torch it gets echoed. What about if he were mounted? Would the mount be echoed or would the echo be floating in a sitting position on open air.
Firstly, Thank You, LeviRocks and Humble_Giant for taking the time to compile and respond to so many questions.
Re: Grapples
For simplicity's sake and to prevent grappling with an Echo from being overpowered, I would rule that while the Knight can initiate a grapple using the Echo, maintaining the grapple would only work if the Knight used her bonus action on the same round as the grappling being initiated to swap places with said Echo. And I absolutely would not allow the Knight to move the Echo in order to move the grappled creature! If the Echo has no mass, and cannot pick up objects, there is no way it should be able to move a grappled creature on its own. As someone said above, allowing grapple + move through the Echo with no contact from the Knight herself invites abuse because then the Echo could be used like a Telekinesis spell obtained at 3rd level and without using concentration.
Re: Interaction with Traps
My first thought here is that the devs really need to either give the Echo a weight (even 1 lb.) or just disallow it from triggering traps that would be triggered by a body passing through a space or stepping on something. Otherwise, it creates too much confusion and becomes a pain to adjudicate for the DM. Similarly, if it remains an object through whatever changes that the devs apply and weight is granted to it, then it should be movable by other creatures. If they maintain the position that it is an object but has no weight, then it cannot be used to interact with any object or creature except via the Attack action, period. The ability or inability of the Echo to interact with other objects/traps/features of the terrain needs to be consistent and fairly easy to determine based on reading. This is an always-available ability, after all, and really needs to be ironed out so as not to dissuade DMs from allowing the subclass, which I agree is both flavorful and useful.
If a Knight is part rogue and is hidden, does an echo get sneak attack? Does the knight become visible? And how would this work thematically and with regards to RP?
If my DM allows the Tunnel Fighter fighting style would an Echo Knight be able to take opportunity attacks from the Echo's position without expending their reaction?
Tunnel Fighter: As a bonus action, you can enter a defensive stance that lasts until the start of your next turn. While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against a creature that moves more than 5 feet while within your reach.
Relevant Echo Knight text: When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
I'm running an echo knight with this. What we decided is that "you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space." was still a use of the reaction, but he could do the AoO for free within their own reach.
3. In our game we have a Kobold echo, as the munchkin wanted to utilise 'pack tactics' whenever possible (and it seems to work RAW!)
As a DM I don't know that I'd allow the Echo of the kobold to treat himself as an ally for pact tactics, since it is really the Knight making the attack. But by RAW, it shouldn't matter that the Echo is an object for the sake of Pact Tactics, since it states "You have advantage on an attack roll against a creature if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet".
The Echo would not grant Pack Tactics for the same reason it doesn't grant flanking. It is not considered an ally.
If a Knight is part rogue and is hidden, does an echo get sneak attack? Does the knight become visible? And how would this work thematically and with regards to RP?
RAW:
If the knight is hidden, it gains advantage on the attack, even if the echo is making it. So it would get sneak attack, provided it doesn't also have disadvantage from another source that is canceling out the advantage. Also, the knight is no longer hidden after the first attack (even if the echo is making it), and must Hide again in order to regain that advantage.
From an RP standpoint, it is a corner case that might seem a bit odd. Sneak attack can be justified by the fact that the enemy is distracted while attempting to locate your true body's position, which is what is granting the advantage to the echo's attack.
As far as becoming revealed when your echo attacks, one possible way to RP it would be to have a subtle blur shifts from you to your echo when you attack with it. You might come up with other indicators that are more relevant to your character's flavor and background.
but how would a echo knight ancestral guardian work. because your attacks originate from your Echo, but your Echo is not you (you as in the knight). how would reckless attack and ancestral protectors work.
Reckless Attack
Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn.
Ancestral Protectors
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you’re raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn’t against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
does this then mean that when I hit a enemy with my echo with reckless attack and apply ancestral protectors then that creature has disadvantage on it's attacks against the echo but advantage against the knight?
that doesn't really matter against the knight because he will be attacking form 30 feet away. and if I add Sentinel on top of that he won't be able to move away because opportunity attack will make the enemy speed 0. thus you can lock one enemy in place. especially against monsters that can only attack in melee.
does this then mean that when I hit a enemy with my echo with reckless attack and apply ancestral protectors then that creature has disadvantage on it's attacks against the echo but advantage against the knight?
Yes, this would be correct - although the damage resistance portion of Ancestral Protectors would not apply, as it only references creatures (which your echo is not).
the damage resistance won't matter because the echo has only 1 hitpoint. so it will die no matter what damage it will take. the question was more about the advantage/disadvantage against the echo.
does this then mean that when I hit a enemy with my echo with reckless attack and apply ancestral protectors then that creature has disadvantage on it's attacks against the echo but advantage against the knight?
Yes, this would be correct - although the damage resistance portion of Ancestral Protectors would not apply, as it only references creatures (which your echo is not).
the damage resistance won't matter because the echo has only 1 hitpoint. so it will die no matter what damage it will take. the question was more about the advantage/disadvantage against the echo.
Q: Can an Echo move more than 30’ from the Knight without it disappearing? A: Yes. However if the Echo moves more than 30’ from the Knight at any time, it will disappear at the end of Knight's round.
This seems to imply that the echo will be destroyed even if it is only momentarily more than 30 feet away? The wording in the book (as I read it at least) I think means that it is only destroyed if you end your turn more than 30 feet away?
I think the placement of the comma is the key here, compare:
"If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed." [As written in the book]
"If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you, at the end of your turn it is destroyed." [Comma moved]
Great thread and very informative! I've been playing D&D for about three months now and I think this is our DM's first campaign as DM, though he had been a player for a while.
After a fair bit of thought and some reading - although sadly, not this thread - I chose Echo Knight, which our DM was also considering for his own character in another campaign where he's a player.
I think that I've maybe played the Echo Knight a little bit wrong, although this could be written off as DM ruling/home rules, I guess? My only main point was the above, which I agree with Blayze9 on. In our game, my Echo can move out of range but doesn't disappear as long as it returns by the end of my Knight's turn.
Other than that there's been occasions that have helped and hindered, such as my Echo grappling, using the crossbow (I think) and being used as a sort of trap scout, but also it once manifested 15' in the air, but failed to grab the fence and fell. So as I say, we're doing it a bit wrong, I think!
Great thread and very informative! I've been playing D&D for about three months now and I think this is our DM's first campaign as DM, though he had been a player for a while.
After a fair bit of thought and some reading - although sadly, not this thread - I chose Echo Knight, which our DM was also considering for his own character in another campaign where he's a player.
I think that I've maybe played the Echo Knight a little bit wrong, although this could be written off as DM ruling/home rules, I guess? My only main point was the above, which I agree with Blayze9 on. In our game, my Echo can move out of range but doesn't disappear as long as it returns by the end of my Knight's turn.
Other than that there's been occasions that have helped and hindered, such as my Echo grappling, using the crossbow (I think) and being used as a sort of trap scout, but also it once manifested 15' in the air, but failed to grab the fence and fell. So as I say, we're doing it a bit wrong, I think!
It exciting to hear you are playing a Echo Knight, and also cool that your DM is or wants to play one. Every table is different, and you can work with your DM to figure out what makes the most sense for your table and what would be the most fun. This FAQ is mainly meant to address the Rules As Written (RAW), but as you can see, there are a number of gaps and some strangeness. So a lot of the rules are open to interpretation. If you do have more questions that come up with you and our DM, feel free to post them here. But again, work with your DM to figure out something that feels right for your table. And while there are 'rules' provided for how Echo Knight should work, there really is no wrong way to run them, so long as you have agreement at your table are are having fun.
Thanks! I've pointed my DM to this thread as I thought he might be interested. I think what we've done so far is fine for us but going forward I guess we'll see!
By the rules, you can certain position your Echo above an opponent and then swap places. What happens afterwards is beyond the scope of the Echo Knight rules. I would personally would say that you could absolutely be ready for it (you know it is coming and control the timing). And as a DM, I personally would probably grant advantage on the follow-up attack. I would also apply falling damage equality between the Knight and target, since both are taking an impact. I may allow a save to reduce the impact. I may also limit how many times this tactic could be used before an enemy gets wise. But all that said, it is really up to your DM.
Good luck with your new Echo Knight and welcome back to D&D.
Movement 10 (Updated - 4/28) Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space?
A: No, because it occupies a space, and isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
1. I'm not sure I agree with this point. If the object is the same size as the original, normally, it takes up space within the 5ft, but doesn't move (as I understand) or threaten, so is there any reason why allies and enemies can't squeeze past it? Eg typically a human isn't 5ft wide! So as an object, I'd rule anyone can squeeze past it. It would count as difficult terrain to pass, or be squeezed (for the enemy and any echo attacks). I'd also rule echos can't squeeze into spaces themselves as can't move.
2. Regarding the homebrew: In my game, I am using the above (but only recently as I have read more)
3. In our game we have a Kobold echo, as the munchkin wanted to utilise 'pack tactics' whenever possible (and it seems to work RAW!)
4. But as it is small, I am also ruling anyone (allies and enemies) can jump onto and beyond the echo kobold (as 3'11 and so need trained athletics or str 12 or more!) - also means it could be used as a stepping stone. - enemies will provoke from the kobold if he can see it!
5. I can also see no reason why this would not work with wildshape. So I want to play an echo bear!
By the rules as written, the Echo "is the same size as you, and it occupies its space." When using a grid, "occupies its space" essentially means that other creature can't get by, regardless of it's size. At least by RAW. I believe this assumes that the Echo is moving and not purely a static statue, and it still poses a threat since it can be used for opportunity attacks as well. Thus the same way a PC occupies a space. The complication is that the Echo is, but the rules (see Crawfords ruling), an object. The movement rules state, "You can move through a nonhostile creature's space." But since the Echo is not a creature, there is no real provision for this.
That all said, I personally as a DM would probably treat the Echo the same way as the Knight for the sake of moving through a space. Meaning that I'd allow an ally through the space, but hostile creatures could not pass by the standard movement rules.
Makes sense. I think the real challenge for DMs is trying to figure out what model to use for the Echo. Should they treat it like a creature, object, or image? Or some combination. I tend to treat it as a threatening, semi-substantial illusion.
As a DM I don't know that I'd allow the Echo of the kobold to treat himself as an ally for pact tactics, since it is really the Knight making the attack. But by RAW, it shouldn't matter that the Echo is an object for the sake of Pact Tactics, since it states "You have advantage on an attack roll against a creature if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet".
Makes sense. For better or worse, the rules abstract the creatures size for things like moving around. Granted an echo is technically an object. That said, what you describe makes sense, but I'd allow the Echo/Knight an opportunity attack if an enemy tried to leap over it.
An Echo in the form of a bear would definitely be frightening.
How do we detrermine what gets echoed? If a player holds a torch it gets echoed. What about if he were mounted? Would the mount be echoed or would the echo be floating in a sitting position on open air.
I'd say it's only you/character gets echoed, with any equipment (in a 5ft like area, maybe reduced to a light load, so no 15ft paper mache dragons!)
The torch would be there (but as stated previously, no light)
No mount, so you'd look like a cowboy with piles :) bandy legs floating around!
But I'd also add, I play it as an image of you, AS you summon the echo, or AFTER you attack. So it would look odd, but accurate.
Firstly, Thank You, LeviRocks and Humble_Giant for taking the time to compile and respond to so many questions.
Re: Grapples
For simplicity's sake and to prevent grappling with an Echo from being overpowered, I would rule that while the Knight can initiate a grapple using the Echo, maintaining the grapple would only work if the Knight used her bonus action on the same round as the grappling being initiated to swap places with said Echo. And I absolutely would not allow the Knight to move the Echo in order to move the grappled creature! If the Echo has no mass, and cannot pick up objects, there is no way it should be able to move a grappled creature on its own. As someone said above, allowing grapple + move through the Echo with no contact from the Knight herself invites abuse because then the Echo could be used like a Telekinesis spell obtained at 3rd level and without using concentration.
Re: Interaction with Traps
My first thought here is that the devs really need to either give the Echo a weight (even 1 lb.) or just disallow it from triggering traps that would be triggered by a body passing through a space or stepping on something. Otherwise, it creates too much confusion and becomes a pain to adjudicate for the DM. Similarly, if it remains an object through whatever changes that the devs apply and weight is granted to it, then it should be movable by other creatures. If they maintain the position that it is an object but has no weight, then it cannot be used to interact with any object or creature except via the Attack action, period. The ability or inability of the Echo to interact with other objects/traps/features of the terrain needs to be consistent and fairly easy to determine based on reading. This is an always-available ability, after all, and really needs to be ironed out so as not to dissuade DMs from allowing the subclass, which I agree is both flavorful and useful.
If a Knight is part rogue and is hidden, does an echo get sneak attack? Does the knight become visible? And how would this work thematically and with regards to RP?
If my DM allows the Tunnel Fighter fighting style would an Echo Knight be able to take opportunity attacks from the Echo's position without expending their reaction?
Tunnel Fighter: As a bonus action, you can enter a defensive stance that lasts until the start of your next turn. While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against a creature that moves more than 5 feet while within your reach.
Relevant Echo Knight text: When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
I'm running an echo knight with this. What we decided is that "you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space." was still a use of the reaction, but he could do the AoO for free within their own reach.
The Echo would not grant Pack Tactics for the same reason it doesn't grant flanking. It is not considered an ally.
RAW:
If the knight is hidden, it gains advantage on the attack, even if the echo is making it. So it would get sneak attack, provided it doesn't also have disadvantage from another source that is canceling out the advantage. Also, the knight is no longer hidden after the first attack (even if the echo is making it), and must Hide again in order to regain that advantage.
From an RP standpoint, it is a corner case that might seem a bit odd. Sneak attack can be justified by the fact that the enemy is distracted while attempting to locate your true body's position, which is what is granting the advantage to the echo's attack.
As far as becoming revealed when your echo attacks, one possible way to RP it would be to have a subtle blur shifts from you to your echo when you attack with it. You might come up with other indicators that are more relevant to your character's flavor and background.
but how would a echo knight ancestral guardian work. because your attacks originate from your Echo, but your Echo is not you (you as in the knight). how would reckless attack and ancestral protectors work.
Reckless Attack
Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn.
Ancestral Protectors
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you’re raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn’t against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
does this then mean that when I hit a enemy with my echo with reckless attack and apply ancestral protectors then that creature has disadvantage on it's attacks against the echo but advantage against the knight?
that doesn't really matter against the knight because he will be attacking form 30 feet away. and if I add Sentinel on top of that he won't be able to move away because opportunity attack will make the enemy speed 0. thus you can lock one enemy in place. especially against monsters that can only attack in melee.
Yes, this would be correct - although the damage resistance portion of Ancestral Protectors would not apply, as it only references creatures (which your echo is not).
the damage resistance won't matter because the echo has only 1 hitpoint. so it will die no matter what damage it will take. the question was more about the advantage/disadvantage against the echo.
This might be a dumb question, but:
Can an Echo or Echo Avatar gesture?
Great thread and very informative! I've been playing D&D for about three months now and I think this is our DM's first campaign as DM, though he had been a player for a while.
After a fair bit of thought and some reading - although sadly, not this thread - I chose Echo Knight, which our DM was also considering for his own character in another campaign where he's a player.
I think that I've maybe played the Echo Knight a little bit wrong, although this could be written off as DM ruling/home rules, I guess? My only main point was the above, which I agree with Blayze9 on. In our game, my Echo can move out of range but doesn't disappear as long as it returns by the end of my Knight's turn.
Other than that there's been occasions that have helped and hindered, such as my Echo grappling, using the crossbow (I think) and being used as a sort of trap scout, but also it once manifested 15' in the air, but failed to grab the fence and fell. So as I say, we're doing it a bit wrong, I think!
It exciting to hear you are playing a Echo Knight, and also cool that your DM is or wants to play one. Every table is different, and you can work with your DM to figure out what makes the most sense for your table and what would be the most fun. This FAQ is mainly meant to address the Rules As Written (RAW), but as you can see, there are a number of gaps and some strangeness. So a lot of the rules are open to interpretation. If you do have more questions that come up with you and our DM, feel free to post them here. But again, work with your DM to figure out something that feels right for your table. And while there are 'rules' provided for how Echo Knight should work, there really is no wrong way to run them, so long as you have agreement at your table are are having fun.
Thanks! I've pointed my DM to this thread as I thought he might be interested. I think what we've done so far is fine for us but going forward I guess we'll see!
If an echo knight/barbarian uses Reckless Attack, can it attack with advantage from the echo's position?
And do attacks agains the echo have advantage?
Yes, the attacks that are being delivered from the echo's position would have advantage.
No, attacks aren't made against the echo at advantage, but they are made against you at advantage.
The distinction is that you are making the attacks from the echo's position, so any attacks that reference you apply. The echo is not you, however.