My main point was that obstacle size/shape determines the type of cover. Whether or not it is a creature, an object, or something else entirely is moot. Cover rules don't care - they just care if the entity is functioning as an obstacle.
If the echo is as tangible as the real creature (which I do think is a bit vague, to be fair), it should be providing the same type of cover that a creature of identical size would provide (half-cover), and not the three-quarter's cover that was suggested in the original question. Its coverage as an obstacle is identical to that of the original creature.
If the Echo is an obstacle or not, will be up to the DM. I think most would allow half cover, while behind it. It seems reasonable to me.
Agreed, with one addendum.
Whether or not an obstacle provides cover depends on the relative position of the point or origin, the target space, and the location of the obstacle. It is 100% possible for a medium creature to provide even Total Cover in a confined environment.
Anyone have any thoughts on how the "Living Shadow" dark gift interacts with the echo? Specifically the Shadow Strike feature, which reads:
"When you make a melee attack roll, you can increase your reach for that attack by 10 feet. Your shadow stretches and delivers the attack as if it were you."
Would that apply to the attack I make through my echo? I'm doing Curse of Strahd right now, and our DM is allowing us 1 Dark Gift, and it's hard to resist the flavor of Living Shadow with the Echo Knight. Even if the consensus here is that that is an appropriate use of the feature, I doubt I'll try it in my game, since it feels a little OP combined with a 30ft manifest range + 30ft movement. Just curious what people think about it...
First, the strike feature works on you, not your echo, so when you take an attack from your echo’s position there’s nothing as written that would disallow it. Second, it’s not as though you have unlimited use of the ability: uses are limited to your proficiency per long rest. And meanwhile, whether or not you elect to use it, you still need to be on the lookout for 1 rolls.
Quick questions, do you have to have a line of sight on the echo to control it? Do you have to be able to see the echo itself in order to issue a command?
I was wondering how the Darkness spell would interact with the echo since the spell states that "If the point you choose (to cast the spell on) is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it.
Would the echo meet the requirement of being an object that isn't worn or carried, and would the darkness move with it when the echo is moved around by the knight?
Sorry if this has come up in the thread already. I haven't checked back here in a few weeks.
I was wondering how the Darkness spell would interact with the echo since the spell states that "If the point you choose (to cast the spell on) is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it.
Would the echo meet the requirement of being an object that isn't worn or carried, and would the darkness move with it when the echo is moved around by the knight?
Sorry if this has come up in the thread already. I haven't checked back here in a few weeks.
yes, it would work exactly as you say: The echo is an object, the darkness spell can be targeted on it, and the field will move with the echo as it moves.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I was wondering how the Darkness spell would interact with the echo since the spell states that "If the point you choose (to cast the spell on) is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it.
Would the echo meet the requirement of being an object that isn't worn or carried, and would the darkness move with it when the echo is moved around by the knight?
Sorry if this has come up in the thread already. I haven't checked back here in a few weeks.
yes, it would work exactly as you say: The echo is an object, the darkness spell can be targeted on it, and the field will move with the echo as it moves.
Score one for the Warlock Echo Knight with the Devil's Sight.
While darkness might work on an Echo (until it takes damage), I assume an Echo can’t attack a target the Knight can’t see — or at least it would be at disadvantage? Ultimately it is the knight doing the attacking, even if it is from the Echo’s space. Though that might be moot with Devil’s Sight.
While darkness might work on an Echo (until it takes damage), I assume an Echo can’t attack a target the Knight can’t see — or at least it would be at disadvantage? Ultimately it is the knight doing the attacking, even if it is from the Echo’s space. Though that might be moot with Devil’s Sight.
This is half correct: Unless the echo knight has Devil's Sight, or Blindsight that cuts into the Darkness spell, etc, the echo could not be used to do the "Attack of opportunity".
Nothing prevents you from just having your attack originate from the echo though, with the normal rules of Unseen Attacker and Target.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
My next game is starting at lvl 8. I made a 3 warlock/5 fighter. Hexblade with pqct of the blade and echo knight. Half drow and devils sight. Add eleven accuracy and some sentinel later and I'm looking to be very happy lol
When a Knight swaps places with his Echo , they obviously take all equipped and carried items with them.
...so 2 questions
Q1 - Could a Knight take a willing creature with them ...like a Goku instant transmission? IE : Party member is in a bad spot or dying etc , Knight grabs them and swaps places taking them to safety?
Q2 - If question 1 is okay .... than could a Knight grapple a hostile creature and swap the same way if still having 15+ feet of movement available including grappling penalties
Q: Can you teleport to an Echo that is 1000’ away using the Echo Avatar feature? A: No by RAI, a Knight cannot teleport while using an Echo Avatar.
Jeremy Crawford tweeted, “The intent is that you can't do anything with the Echo Knight's echo while using Echo Avatar, other than scout with it. The text stating that intent is mysteriously missing from the book. We'll fix it in a future printing! Sorry about the confusion."
Can you not just stop using the Echo Avatar as a free action, and then before the turn ends, use the teleport feature? The Echo doesn't dissappear until the end of your turn and the teleport feature has a limitless range. They would have to reword the teleport feature to limit distance or prevent actions from happening when you stop using the Echo Avatar feature. I wonder if you can teleport between realms before your turn ends. Teleport Echo as a object someplace, then then instantly teleport before it dissappears. It needs work to prevent this.
What I am really interested in asking is if you get the blindsight fighting style, can your main body fight with blindsight when you are using the Echo Avatar to scout? Can your main body fight at all when using Echo Avatar? Maybe the Echo can look over the battlefield or scout ahead. Of course, blindsight is only 10 feet. Depends on if you can move your body or not when using the feature.
What happens to the echo if the knight enters an extradimensional space like a genie’s vessel, if the echo was holding the vessel when the knight entered?
Assuming that your fighter, who is not, spoiler alert, a spellcaster, can enter an extra-dimensional space on an action, bonus action, movement, or whatever, do what needs to be done within that one turn, and then have a free action, bonus action, movement, or whatever to get back to her original dimension, then yes, you're absolutely, completely, pedantically correct. Under these extremely specific and never-ever-ever-going-to-happen circumstances involving a fighter able to plane-shift and then plane-shift back in the same turn, then yes, the Echo will not "poof" since you've somehow managed to plane-shift away and back in the same turn.
What happens to the echo if the knight enters an extradimensional space like a genie’s vessel, if the echo was holding the vessel when the knight entered?
This depends entirely on how the feature works.
Specifically with regards to Bottled Respite, the echo knight enters their bottle; which contains within it an extradimensional space with dimensions included. All this does is create additional space where none would be otherwise. So, theoretically, it's possible for the echo to persist. But it would have to remain within 10 feet of the vessel because the vessel's dimensions are 20 feet. As an aside, however, the echo cannot hold the vessel because it can't interact with objects.
And for good measure, the Ethereal Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. So, if your echo knight somehow finds themself there their echo will still persist. It might initially manifest on whichever plane your echo knight is on when created, but it won't cease to exist just because of this change in plane.
Assuming that your fighter, who is not, spoiler alert, a spellcaster, can enter an extra-dimensional space on an action, bonus action, movement, or whatever, do what needs to be done within that one turn, and then have a free action, bonus action, movement, or whatever to get back to her original dimension, then yes, you're absolutely, completely, pedantically correct. Under these extremely specific and never-ever-ever-going-to-happen circumstances involving a fighter able to plane-shift and then plane-shift back in the same turn, then yes, the Echo will not "poof" since you've somehow managed to plane-shift away and back in the same turn.
This rather specific combination of is achievable with a 4th level character, investing three levels into fighter and one level into warlock. They can enter their vessel, via Bottled Respite, as an action and leave as a bonus action. It's undoubtedly shenanigans, but it's perfectly achievable in Tier 1 play and, more importantly, legal. It's also not any sort of plane-shifting. That's a completely separate game mechanic.
Under the incredibly, individually specific circumstances of an echo knight with a level of genie warlock who wants, for no fathomable reason I can think of, to jump into the bottle with an action and then jump out of it with a bonus action on the same turn while the echo is deployed outside the bottle then no, the echo doesn’t “poof”.
If I wanted to get pedantic on a Monday morning, I’d ask the Are You Joking question, as in, okay, so it’s technically, by letter-of-the-law possible- but ffs, when is this ever going to happen in actual game play- but I won’t. Too early in the week to get stuck in the weeds. I’ll just end with we agree that it’s possible, just under incredibly specific circumstances.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Agreed, with one addendum.
Whether or not an obstacle provides cover depends on the relative position of the point or origin, the target space, and the location of the obstacle. It is 100% possible for a medium creature to provide even Total Cover in a confined environment.
Anyone have any thoughts on how the "Living Shadow" dark gift interacts with the echo? Specifically the Shadow Strike feature, which reads:
"When you make a melee attack roll, you can increase your reach for that attack by 10 feet. Your shadow stretches and delivers the attack as if it were you."
Would that apply to the attack I make through my echo? I'm doing Curse of Strahd right now, and our DM is allowing us 1 Dark Gift, and it's hard to resist the flavor of Living Shadow with the Echo Knight. Even if the consensus here is that that is an appropriate use of the feature, I doubt I'll try it in my game, since it feels a little OP combined with a 30ft manifest range + 30ft movement. Just curious what people think about it...
I see no issue with it.
First, the strike feature works on you, not your echo, so when you take an attack from your echo’s position there’s nothing as written that would disallow it. Second, it’s not as though you have unlimited use of the ability: uses are limited to your proficiency per long rest. And meanwhile, whether or not you elect to use it, you still need to be on the lookout for 1 rolls.
My $0.02: use it- and enjoy Strahd!
Quick questions, do you have to have a line of sight on the echo to control it? Do you have to be able to see the echo itself in order to issue a command?
I was wondering how the Darkness spell would interact with the echo since the spell states that "If the point you choose (to cast the spell on) is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it.
Would the echo meet the requirement of being an object that isn't worn or carried, and would the darkness move with it when the echo is moved around by the knight?
Sorry if this has come up in the thread already. I haven't checked back here in a few weeks.
yes, it would work exactly as you say: The echo is an object, the darkness spell can be targeted on it, and the field will move with the echo as it moves.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Score one for the Warlock Echo Knight with the Devil's Sight.
While darkness might work on an Echo (until it takes damage), I assume an Echo can’t attack a target the Knight can’t see — or at least it would be at disadvantage? Ultimately it is the knight doing the attacking, even if it is from the Echo’s space. Though that might be moot with Devil’s Sight.
This is half correct: Unless the echo knight has Devil's Sight, or Blindsight that cuts into the Darkness spell, etc, the echo could not be used to do the "Attack of opportunity".
Nothing prevents you from just having your attack originate from the echo though, with the normal rules of Unseen Attacker and Target.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
My next game is starting at lvl 8. I made a 3 warlock/5 fighter. Hexblade with pqct of the blade and echo knight. Half drow and devils sight. Add eleven accuracy and some sentinel later and I'm looking to be very happy lol
When a Knight swaps places with his Echo , they obviously take all equipped and carried items with them.
...so 2 questions
Q1 - Could a Knight take a willing creature with them ...like a Goku instant transmission? IE : Party member is in a bad spot or dying etc , Knight grabs them and swaps places taking them to safety?
Q2 - If question 1 is okay .... than could a Knight grapple a hostile creature and swap the same way if still having 15+ feet of movement available including grappling penalties
I didn't see any other questions regarding this
No. Teleportation doesn't bring along other creatures unless explicitly stated.
Can you not just stop using the Echo Avatar as a free action, and then before the turn ends, use the teleport feature? The Echo doesn't dissappear until the end of your turn and the teleport feature has a limitless range. They would have to reword the teleport feature to limit distance or prevent actions from happening when you stop using the Echo Avatar feature. I wonder if you can teleport between realms before your turn ends. Teleport Echo as a object someplace, then then instantly teleport before it dissappears. It needs work to prevent this.
What I am really interested in asking is if you get the blindsight fighting style, can your main body fight with blindsight when you are using the Echo Avatar to scout? Can your main body fight at all when using Echo Avatar? Maybe the Echo can look over the battlefield or scout ahead. Of course, blindsight is only 10 feet. Depends on if you can move your body or not when using the feature.
No, your consciousness is in the echo avatar, your own body is not able to take actions unless you end the connection with the avatar.
What happens to the echo if the knight enters an extradimensional space like a genie’s vessel, if the echo was holding the vessel when the knight entered?
A different dimension or plane is further than 30ft. The Echo will poof.
The Echo poofs at the end of your turn, not when it moves 30 feet away. Being 30 feet away at the end of your turn triggers the process.
Fine.
Assuming that your fighter, who is not, spoiler alert, a spellcaster, can enter an extra-dimensional space on an action, bonus action, movement, or whatever, do what needs to be done within that one turn, and then have a free action, bonus action, movement, or whatever to get back to her original dimension, then yes, you're absolutely, completely, pedantically correct. Under these extremely specific and never-ever-ever-going-to-happen circumstances involving a fighter able to plane-shift and then plane-shift back in the same turn, then yes, the Echo will not "poof" since you've somehow managed to plane-shift away and back in the same turn.
This depends entirely on how the feature works.
Specifically with regards to Bottled Respite, the echo knight enters their bottle; which contains within it an extradimensional space with dimensions included. All this does is create additional space where none would be otherwise. So, theoretically, it's possible for the echo to persist. But it would have to remain within 10 feet of the vessel because the vessel's dimensions are 20 feet. As an aside, however, the echo cannot hold the vessel because it can't interact with objects.
And for good measure, the Ethereal Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. So, if your echo knight somehow finds themself there their echo will still persist. It might initially manifest on whichever plane your echo knight is on when created, but it won't cease to exist just because of this change in plane.
This rather specific combination of is achievable with a 4th level character, investing three levels into fighter and one level into warlock. They can enter their vessel, via Bottled Respite, as an action and leave as a bonus action. It's undoubtedly shenanigans, but it's perfectly achievable in Tier 1 play and, more importantly, legal. It's also not any sort of plane-shifting. That's a completely separate game mechanic.
So we agree.
Under the incredibly, individually specific circumstances of an echo knight with a level of genie warlock who wants, for no fathomable reason I can think of, to jump into the bottle with an action and then jump out of it with a bonus action on the same turn while the echo is deployed outside the bottle then no, the echo doesn’t “poof”.
If I wanted to get pedantic on a Monday morning, I’d ask the Are You Joking question, as in, okay, so it’s technically, by letter-of-the-law possible- but ffs, when is this ever going to happen in actual game play- but I won’t. Too early in the week to get stuck in the weeds. I’ll just end with we agree that it’s possible, just under incredibly specific circumstances.