Q: Can you use an Echo Avatar to make an attack up to 1000’ away? A: No. By RAI, attacks cannot be made through an Echo Avatar.
Jeremy Crawford tweeted, “The intent is that you can't do anything with the Echo Knight's echo while using Echo Avatar, other than scout with it. The text stating that intent is mysteriously missing from the book. We'll fix it in a future printing! Sorry about the confusion."
Per Crawford, literally you cannot attack, teleport, or otherwise do anything other features would let you do with the echo... Intended. currently RAW you can, yes... but that's not how it's supposed to work.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
what i mean is you stop using Echo Avatar and your Echo is still 1000 distance away from you and if you end your turn it get destroyed because its out of reach from you.
you can can move your echo 60 feet away from you to teleport and its not destroyed till u end your turn
i know i cant do any other action while in Echo Avatar but what if when i end it then use teleport ? its still within my turn
Actions, bonus actions, and reactions don't have much meaning outside a combat situation. And since combats don't take place hundreds of feet across, how the ability actually works is entirely up to the DM.
i know i cant do any other action while in Echo Avatar, but what if when i end it then use teleport?
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you. (Manifest Echo)
As an action, you can see through your echo’s eyes and hear through its ears. [...] You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). (Echo Avatar)
Action economy would indicate that you can do this. You have to stop the avatar function (no action required) and then swap places (bonus action) "in the same turn". If this is outside of combat, have at it. If this is during combat, just make sure you do this all on your turn.
Scenario: Echo Knight is "Frightened": *A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within Line of Sight. * The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.
1. Can the Echo Knight swap places? *As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you. A. No, a teleport is "willingly moving closer" B. Yes, a teleport is not a "movement" as it does not trigger opportunity attacks C. While teleport is OK, you use "15 ft of movement" and thus, can NOT teleport due the same reason you cannot teleport out of the 'restrained' condition...
2. Can the Echo Knight hide behind a wall and attack without disadvantage as the source of its fear is NOT within Line of Sight? * When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack. A. Yes, as you don't need to see the creature to attack. B. No, while you are attacking from the shadow position, you are attacking from that position as if you seeing the source of fright (not blindly).
Sorry if this has been answered, I read the first page regarding Action but didn't see this specifically mentioned.
Can you use your Echo to attack with your Extra Attack (So Knight first attacks one enemy with Attack Action, then uses his Extra Attack to attack through the Echo) or does attacking through your Echo always occur on the first attack (meaning the actual Attack Action) and you'd have to use Extra Attack only through your Knight? If the first part is ok (using Extra Attack through your Echo), can you use both, the Attack Action and Extra Attack through your Echo or is it only one attack? I believe it was mentioned if you have PAM (I do) you can't use your bonus attack action to attack through the Echo.
Also, I believe it was also noted the Echo does not get the PAM feature of reacting when a create ENTERS its space (even if its 5f), only when it leaves its space, but I assume they still have at least 10 feet reach because the Knight is using a reach weapon, correct?
Thanks! First time trying this class out and my DM is also new to this so we're just trying to figure it out
From the 3rd level Manifest Echo, second bullet under how the echo can be used (emphasis mine):
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
You can see that on any attack, the attacker chooses where it originates from. Since Extra Attack states that you can make another attack as part of the same action, you would get to choose for each individual attack.
Edit: I think part of your confusion is stemming from the fact that you think Extra Attack is another action. This isn't the case. Extra Attack is an additional attack that is added as part of the same action.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Notice that you're still only taking one attack action. The same would also hold true for Action Surge. If you choose to use the extra action from Action Surge to take the attack action, you would be able to make two more attacks which could originate from your space or the echo's, which you would get to choose on each attack. So you could split your attacks as two from you and two from the echo, or have all four originate from the echo's space. It's up to you.
From the 3rd level Manifest Echo, second bullet under how the echo can be used (emphasis mine):
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
You can see that on any attack, the attacker chooses where it originates from. Since Extra Attack states that you can make another attack as part of the same action, you would get to choose for each individual attack.
Edit: I think part of your confusion is stemming from the fact that you think Extra Attack is another action. This isn't the case. Extra Attack is an additional attack that is added as part of the same action.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Notice that you're still only taking one attack action. The same would also hold true for Action Surge. If you choose to use the extra action from Action Surge to take the attack action, you would be able to make two more attacks which could originate from your space or the echo's, which you would get to choose on each attack. So you could split your attacks as two from you and two from the echo, or have all four originate from the echo's space. It's up to you.
Thanks, great explanation and it makes a lot of sense now.
In regards to reach, they have no issue using reach right? Its only in regards to their AoO that its limited to 5 feet?
You have the wording for the rogue sneak attack wrong.
The wording of sneak attack is:
"You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it,..."
It doesn't say anything about needing to be an Ally or a creature. So, the Echo is an enemy. It can be targeted and destroy, unlike spiritual weapon. So a rogue would set it sneak attack damage against a target that the echo was standing next to.
You have the wording for the rogue sneak attack wrong.
The wording of sneak attack is:
"You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it,..."
It doesn't say anything about needing to be an Ally or a creature. So, the Echo is an enemy. It can be targeted and destroy, unlike spiritual weapon. So a rogue would set it sneak attack damage against a target that the echo was standing next to.
The echo is an object, not an enemy. More to the point, it's an extension of the echo knight. It's not "another enemy" when it's already part of you.
"You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed,..."
"You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed,..."
Jeremy Crawford has stated that it is an object... they just somehow forgot to put it in, among other rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Literally from the first post.
Q: Can you use an Echo Avatar to make an attack up to 1000’ away?
A: No. By RAI, attacks cannot be made through an Echo Avatar.
Per Crawford, literally you cannot attack, teleport, or otherwise do anything other features would let you do with the echo... Intended. currently RAW you can, yes... but that's not how it's supposed to work.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
what i mean is you stop using Echo Avatar and your Echo is still 1000 distance away from you and if you end your turn it get destroyed because its out of reach from you.
you can can move your echo 60 feet away from you to teleport and its not destroyed till u end your turn
i know i cant do any other action while in Echo Avatar but what if when i end it then use teleport ? its still within my turn
Actions, bonus actions, and reactions don't have much meaning outside a combat situation. And since combats don't take place hundreds of feet across, how the ability actually works is entirely up to the DM.
i know i cant do any other action while in Echo Avatar, but what if when i end it then use teleport?
Action economy would indicate that you can do this. You have to stop the avatar function (no action required) and then swap places (bonus action) "in the same turn". If this is outside of combat, have at it. If this is during combat, just make sure you do this all on your turn.
Scenario: Echo Knight is "Frightened":
*A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within Line of Sight.
* The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.
1. Can the Echo Knight swap places?
*As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
A. No, a teleport is "willingly moving closer"
B. Yes, a teleport is not a "movement" as it does not trigger opportunity attacks
C. While teleport is OK, you use "15 ft of movement" and thus, can NOT teleport due the same reason you cannot teleport out of the 'restrained' condition...
2. Can the Echo Knight hide behind a wall and attack without disadvantage as the source of its fear is NOT within Line of Sight?
* When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
A. Yes, as you don't need to see the creature to attack.
B. No, while you are attacking from the shadow position, you are attacking from that position as if you seeing the source of fright (not blindly).
My thoughts are 1. A and 3. B
If I teleport with my Echo, can I take someone with me?
What if it's inside bag of holding
My $0.02,
1. If the Echo is farther from the source of fright, no problem. If closer, then you are moving closer, so no.
2. The Knight only sees through the Echo during Echo Avatar, so attacks from behind a wall are in effect, "blind", therefore at disadvantage.
Sorry if this has been answered, I read the first page regarding Action but didn't see this specifically mentioned.
Can you use your Echo to attack with your Extra Attack (So Knight first attacks one enemy with Attack Action, then uses his Extra Attack to attack through the Echo) or does attacking through your Echo always occur on the first attack (meaning the actual Attack Action) and you'd have to use Extra Attack only through your Knight? If the first part is ok (using Extra Attack through your Echo), can you use both, the Attack Action and Extra Attack through your Echo or is it only one attack? I believe it was mentioned if you have PAM (I do) you can't use your bonus attack action to attack through the Echo.
Also, I believe it was also noted the Echo does not get the PAM feature of reacting when a create ENTERS its space (even if its 5f), only when it leaves its space, but I assume they still have at least 10 feet reach because the Knight is using a reach weapon, correct?
Thanks! First time trying this class out and my DM is also new to this so we're just trying to figure it out
From the 3rd level Manifest Echo, second bullet under how the echo can be used (emphasis mine):
You can see that on any attack, the attacker chooses where it originates from. Since Extra Attack states that you can make another attack as part of the same action, you would get to choose for each individual attack.
Edit: I think part of your confusion is stemming from the fact that you think Extra Attack is another action. This isn't the case. Extra Attack is an additional attack that is added as part of the same action.
Notice that you're still only taking one attack action. The same would also hold true for Action Surge. If you choose to use the extra action from Action Surge to take the attack action, you would be able to make two more attacks which could originate from your space or the echo's, which you would get to choose on each attack. So you could split your attacks as two from you and two from the echo, or have all four originate from the echo's space. It's up to you.
You can alternate your attacks between your knight and your echo as you want.
Thanks, great explanation and it makes a lot of sense now.
In regards to reach, they have no issue using reach right? Its only in regards to their AoO that its limited to 5 feet?
Thanks
Question regarding Attacking #8.
You have the wording for the rogue sneak attack wrong.
The wording of sneak attack is:
"You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it,..."
It doesn't say anything about needing to be an Ally or a creature. So, the Echo is an enemy. It can be targeted and destroy, unlike spiritual weapon. So a rogue would set it sneak attack damage against a target that the echo was standing next to.
The echo is an object, not an enemy. More to the point, it's an extension of the echo knight. It's not "another enemy" when it's already part of you.
Where does it say the Echo is an object?
"You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed,..."
Jeremy Crawford has stated that it is an object... they just somehow forgot to put it in, among other rules.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"