So I'm going to be playing in a new campaign soon and I wanted to play a ranged fighter. I had an idea for a fantasy cowboy gunslinger kind of fighter, just not the actual gunslinger subclass. I'm planning on using hand crossbows with crossbow expert, sharpshooter and elven accuracy so he can just metaphorically fan the hammer and kill a bunch of dudes. For the potential utility and defensive options (and some flavor), I'm thinking about going eldritch knight and I wanted to see if that was a terrible idea. I know it probably won't be the optimal option for damage output, but I wanted to see if other people thought it was a decent build. I know if I take find familiar, I could use it to grant myself advantage on one attack per turn which is sweet. I also wondered if anyone had any other good ideas for a ranged eldritch knight since most people make melee ones (cantrips/spells, feats, tactics, etc.).
The plan for the familiar is to go owl so it gets 60 ft movement and flyby so it can swoop in, help, and get out to hopefully keep it alive. Obviously it isn't fool proof, especially if the enemy is smart and has some sort of ranged attack, but hopefully he'll be able to survive for a bit before I need to resummon.
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components. And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Also, I understand you’re not worried about damage output, but a hand crossbow is really setting you back. Only a d6, when you could be using a heavy crossbow for a d10. That’s really going to add up as you get multiple attacks. I usually think of a hand crossbow as a way for a rogue to deliver sneak attacks, not a primary weapon for a fighter.
Beyond that, it could work well. A lot of wizard spells, I’d even say most, are designed to work at range, which is what you’ll want to do as an archer anyway. Id make sure you have a finesse weapon on you (rapier probably is the go to) in case the enemies get up close and you have to melee. Maybe a booming blade as a cantrip to help you get away from people.
I agree definitely with shield, maybe magic missile for times you can’t risk missing. Eventually, fireball and other AoE spells in case you need to spread damage around.
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components. And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Not to mention, RAW you need a free hand to load a one-handed ranged weapon as part of the ammunition property, which Crossbow Expert does not circumvent.
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components. And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Not to mention, RAW you need a free hand to load a one-handed ranged weapon as part of the ammunition property, which Crossbow Expert does not circumvent.
Yeah I would just hold one and by 5th level you are doing three attacks potentially with SS if you are going V. Human.
So while the d6 is about 2 points less on average for damage the third attack with more than make up for it:
2d10+6 for two attacks with heavy crossbow w/o SS: 17 3d6+9 for three attacks with hand crossbow w/o SS: 19.5
Add in SS and it gets better for the hand crossbow:
2d10+26 for two attacks with heavy crossbow w/ SS: 37 3d6+39 for three attacks with hand crossbow w/ SS: 49.5
And if you want to fan the hammer you likely need a free hand anyway!
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components. And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Also, I understand you’re not worried about damage output, but a hand crossbow is really setting you back. Only a d6, when you could be using a heavy crossbow for a d10. That’s really going to add up as you get multiple attacks. I usually think of a hand crossbow as a way for a rogue to deliver sneak attacks, not a primary weapon for a fighter.
Beyond that, it could work well. A lot of wizard spells, I’d even say most, are designed to work at range, which is what you’ll want to do as an archer anyway. Id make sure you have a finesse weapon on you (rapier probably is the go to) in case the enemies get up close and you have to melee. Maybe a booming blade as a cantrip to help you get away from people.
I agree definitely with shield, maybe magic missile for times you can’t risk missing. Eventually, fireball and other AoE spells in case you need to spread damage around.
I realized that mechanically, there is no difference between wielding one hand crossbow or one in each hand in terms of attacks, either way you get a bonus action shot. I am also aware that you need the hand free to reload so you can't use a physical shield. That was part of why I figured, if I have the hand free, I might as well cast a spell or two.
Since the ultimate plan is to use the sharpshooter feat anyway, I figured that X attacks +1 bonus shot with a d6 and the extra 10 sharpshooter damage on each shot would be equivalent if not better to X attacks with a d10 and the extra 10 damage on each shot.
Also a side benefit of crossbow expert, I can use it in melee without disadvantage, so I don't need a rapier to fight up close. My opportunity attacks will be crap, but I wasn't super worried about those anyway.
Also thinking about fireball, with eldritch strike at level 10, I could hypothetically shoot three guys, action surge, and fireball, giving them all disadvantage on the save.
Yeah overall I think you have a cool theme to work on and if you arent worried about complete optimization then Eldritch Knight is a great way to get some fun stuff.
I also thought it would be fun to make him a half-elf named Butch Sundancer. It helps that we are using a house rule that lets you reassign one racial bonus point to a different attribute, so it opens up a lot more interesting race/class combos. It will take longer to get going with crossbow expert/sharpshooter than a variant human, but it allows for elven accuracy and I also just like the idea of an elf-like cowboy with a mustache and a hand crossbow.
I also thought it would be fun to make him a half-elf named Butch Sundancer. It helps that we are using a house rule that lets you reassign one racial bonus point to a different attribute, so it opens up a lot more interesting race/class combos. It will take longer to get going with crossbow expert/sharpshooter than a variant human, but it allows for elven accuracy and I also just like the idea of an elf-like cowboy with a mustache and a hand crossbow.
Sounds like fun to me. I would suggest going with Crossbow expert first so that you can benefit from extra attack at 5th level and fight with the crossbow in melee range if needed.
I also thought it would be fun to make him a half-elf named Butch Sundancer. It helps that we are using a house rule that lets you reassign one racial bonus point to a different attribute, so it opens up a lot more interesting race/class combos. It will take longer to get going with crossbow expert/sharpshooter than a variant human, but it allows for elven accuracy and I also just like the idea of an elf-like cowboy with a mustache and a hand crossbow.
Sounds like fun to me. I would suggest going with Crossbow expert first so that you can benefit from extra attack at 5th level and fight with the crossbow in melee range if needed.
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components. And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Also, I understand you’re not worried about damage output, but a hand crossbow is really setting you back. Only a d6, when you could be using a heavy crossbow for a d10. That’s really going to add up as you get multiple attacks. I usually think of a hand crossbow as a way for a rogue to deliver sneak attacks, not a primary weapon for a fighter.
Beyond that, it could work well. A lot of wizard spells, I’d even say most, are designed to work at range, which is what you’ll want to do as an archer anyway. Id make sure you have a finesse weapon on you (rapier probably is the go to) in case the enemies get up close and you have to melee. Maybe a booming blade as a cantrip to help you get away from people.
I agree definitely with shield, maybe magic missile for times you can’t risk missing. Eventually, fireball and other AoE spells in case you need to spread damage around.
I realized that mechanically, there is no difference between wielding one hand crossbow or one in each hand in terms of attacks, either way you get a bonus action shot. I am also aware that you need the hand free to reload so you can't use a physical shield. That was part of why I figured, if I have the hand free, I might as well cast a spell or two.
Since the ultimate plan is to use the sharpshooter feat anyway, I figured that X attacks +1 bonus shot with a d6 and the extra 10 sharpshooter damage on each shot would be equivalent if not better to X attacks with a d10 and the extra 10 damage on each shot.
Also a side benefit of crossbow expert, I can use it in melee without disadvantage, so I don't need a rapier to fight up close. My opportunity attacks will be crap, but I wasn't super worried about those anyway.
Also thinking about fireball, with eldritch strike at level 10, I could hypothetically shoot three guys, action surge, and fireball, giving them all disadvantage on the save.
I would still get the rapier and Booming Blade just because it works mechanically for what you are trying to do, get away from people to keep that lack of a shield from causing problems (admittedly less of a problem than some other classes). It would also help you take advantage of War Magic should you want to do so. Eventually, that option will be subpar in most circumstances, but it could still be useful from time to time. Considering that your range will be lacking compared to your ranged weapon options (less of a problem with sharpshooter in place), being able to gain that distance and punish the creatures would be a great option, especially if you had mobile feat or swashbuckler to give you the mini disengage.
However, you do you. It sounds like it would be an intriguing build to play. I actually ran the numbers and hand crossbow with the bonus action attack runs favorably against heavy crossbow for a long time. Tag on the potential bonus of an extra 10 damage, you'll be fine. You may want to grab Toll the Dead or another save cantrip to compliment your arrow attacks when high AC creatures are in play. That's a great option if you're not planning on Booming Blade and a decent one with it (particularly if your party has the utility covered).
My backup character is this build. With the +2 ranged attack bonus, eventually buying/obtaining bracers of archery (+2 ranged attack bonus), and a +1 hand crossbow you can near negate the -5 even when you can't get advantage. Although with things like blind/deafen, familiar, or hold person; getting advantage shouldn't be hard. I would not worry about opportunity attacks being missed since I would want to save a reaction for shield anywho. The hand crossbow being a d6 is negligible in damage in comparison to the extra damage you get with a bonus action attack that can still benefit from an additional +10 damage
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components. And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Not to mention, RAW you need a free hand to load a one-handed ranged weapon as part of the ammunition property, which Crossbow Expert does not circumvent.
Couldn't you use Mage Hand to reload the crossbows?
Having the mage hand do something is an action. So you could fire it one round, use you action the next to round to have the mage hand reload it, fire in the third round. Possible, but ineffective.
So I'm going to be playing in a new campaign soon and I wanted to play a ranged fighter. I had an idea for a fantasy cowboy gunslinger kind of fighter, just not the actual gunslinger subclass. I'm planning on using hand crossbows with crossbow expert, sharpshooter and elven accuracy so he can just metaphorically fan the hammer and kill a bunch of dudes. For the potential utility and defensive options (and some flavor), I'm thinking about going eldritch knight and I wanted to see if that was a terrible idea. I know it probably won't be the optimal option for damage output, but I wanted to see if other people thought it was a decent build. I know if I take find familiar, I could use it to grant myself advantage on one attack per turn which is sweet. I also wondered if anyone had any other good ideas for a ranged eldritch knight since most people make melee ones (cantrips/spells, feats, tactics, etc.).
Seems like a decent idea to me. You get some extra defense with shield and absorb elements.
One thing...don't expect that familiar to last very long in combat but for the rounds you can get that one attack advantage that will be pretty sweet.
I love the flavor and the theme by the way that is really cool!
The plan for the familiar is to go owl so it gets 60 ft movement and flyby so it can swoop in, help, and get out to hopefully keep it alive. Obviously it isn't fool proof, especially if the enemy is smart and has some sort of ranged attack, but hopefully he'll be able to survive for a bit before I need to resummon.
When you say hand crossbows, do you mean two, like one in each hand? That could be problematic. You’ll need one hand free for somatic components for your spells, And material components.
And while xbow expert lets you ignore the loading property, some DMs may have an issue with dual wielding them, since you’ll still need a hand to, well, load them. (Ignoring the property effectively means you’re really fast at loading them so you can get more than one attack a round, not that they Don’t need to be loaded.)
Also, I understand you’re not worried about damage output, but a hand crossbow is really setting you back. Only a d6, when you could be using a heavy crossbow for a d10. That’s really going to add up as you get multiple attacks. I usually think of a hand crossbow as a way for a rogue to deliver sneak attacks, not a primary weapon for a fighter.
Beyond that, it could work well. A lot of wizard spells, I’d even say most, are designed to work at range, which is what you’ll want to do as an archer anyway.
Id make sure you have a finesse weapon on you (rapier probably is the go to) in case the enemies get up close and you have to melee. Maybe a booming blade as a cantrip to help you get away from people.
I agree definitely with shield, maybe magic missile for times you can’t risk missing. Eventually, fireball and other AoE spells in case you need to spread damage around.
Not to mention, RAW you need a free hand to load a one-handed ranged weapon as part of the ammunition property, which Crossbow Expert does not circumvent.
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Yeah I would just hold one and by 5th level you are doing three attacks potentially with SS if you are going V. Human.
So while the d6 is about 2 points less on average for damage the third attack with more than make up for it:
2d10+6 for two attacks with heavy crossbow w/o SS: 17
3d6+9 for three attacks with hand crossbow w/o SS: 19.5
Add in SS and it gets better for the hand crossbow:
2d10+26 for two attacks with heavy crossbow w/ SS: 37
3d6+39 for three attacks with hand crossbow w/ SS: 49.5
And if you want to fan the hammer you likely need a free hand anyway!
Now there’s a fan of the old style westerns if ever I saw one!
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I realized that mechanically, there is no difference between wielding one hand crossbow or one in each hand in terms of attacks, either way you get a bonus action shot. I am also aware that you need the hand free to reload so you can't use a physical shield. That was part of why I figured, if I have the hand free, I might as well cast a spell or two.
Since the ultimate plan is to use the sharpshooter feat anyway, I figured that X attacks +1 bonus shot with a d6 and the extra 10 sharpshooter damage on each shot would be equivalent if not better to X attacks with a d10 and the extra 10 damage on each shot.
Also a side benefit of crossbow expert, I can use it in melee without disadvantage, so I don't need a rapier to fight up close. My opportunity attacks will be crap, but I wasn't super worried about those anyway.
Also thinking about fireball, with eldritch strike at level 10, I could hypothetically shoot three guys, action surge, and fireball, giving them all disadvantage on the save.
Yeah overall I think you have a cool theme to work on and if you arent worried about complete optimization then Eldritch Knight is a great way to get some fun stuff.
I also thought it would be fun to make him a half-elf named Butch Sundancer. It helps that we are using a house rule that lets you reassign one racial bonus point to a different attribute, so it opens up a lot more interesting race/class combos. It will take longer to get going with crossbow expert/sharpshooter than a variant human, but it allows for elven accuracy and I also just like the idea of an elf-like cowboy with a mustache and a hand crossbow.
Sounds like fun to me. I would suggest going with Crossbow expert first so that you can benefit from extra attack at 5th level and fight with the crossbow in melee range if needed.
I think that's the plan.
I would still get the rapier and Booming Blade just because it works mechanically for what you are trying to do, get away from people to keep that lack of a shield from causing problems (admittedly less of a problem than some other classes). It would also help you take advantage of War Magic should you want to do so. Eventually, that option will be subpar in most circumstances, but it could still be useful from time to time. Considering that your range will be lacking compared to your ranged weapon options (less of a problem with sharpshooter in place), being able to gain that distance and punish the creatures would be a great option, especially if you had mobile feat or swashbuckler to give you the mini disengage.
However, you do you. It sounds like it would be an intriguing build to play. I actually ran the numbers and hand crossbow with the bonus action attack runs favorably against heavy crossbow for a long time. Tag on the potential bonus of an extra 10 damage, you'll be fine. You may want to grab Toll the Dead or another save cantrip to compliment your arrow attacks when high AC creatures are in play. That's a great option if you're not planning on Booming Blade and a decent one with it (particularly if your party has the utility covered).
My backup character is this build. With the +2 ranged attack bonus, eventually buying/obtaining bracers of archery (+2 ranged attack bonus), and a +1 hand crossbow you can near negate the -5 even when you can't get advantage. Although with things like blind/deafen, familiar, or hold person; getting advantage shouldn't be hard. I would not worry about opportunity attacks being missed since I would want to save a reaction for shield anywho. The hand crossbow being a d6 is negligible in damage in comparison to the extra damage you get with a bonus action attack that can still benefit from an additional +10 damage
Couldn't you use Mage Hand to reload the crossbows?
Having the mage hand do something is an action. So you could fire it one round, use you action the next to round to have the mage hand reload it, fire in the third round. Possible, but ineffective.
Don’t Bracers of archery only work with bows?
Longbow and Shortbow, yes. Bracers of Archery.