Good breakdown - I'm certainly not saying it's better than Stunning Strike, just different. Different saves, and different effects from your allies. Also, you can upcast it and hit multiple targets.
This is true, but you're looking at 4 ki to upcast to two targets ... and with Stunning Strike you could potentially stun four targets with the same ki cost.
Yes. But Stunning Strike could just as easily affect only one or if your really unlucky none at all for that same cost (or actually slightly more). While Potential is important it's not the only factor. Otherwise abilities like Stunning Strike and Hold Person would not be situational. It would be easy to argue that because Hold Person can potentially (though unlikely) to last up to 10 turns would always be superior between the two if it was as simple as potential.
Being Different is exactly the point between the two. They are different and they have different uses and they are fairly balanced in the average campaign between the two. Even in costs.
Hmmm. Let’s assume the enemies have equal +6 saves vs the Stunning Strike and Hold Person, and an AC of 18.
We can take a level 10 monk with +4 Prof Bonus, 18 Dex and 18 wis (+8 to hit, save DC 16).
A stunning strike on 4 attacks is 5 Ki points (1 per stunning strike, 1 for flurry of blows). Four attacks, likely 1.8 attacks hitting.
Chance to hit is 55%, chance of target to fail save is 45%. Total chance to Stun is 24.75% chance to Stun, so 0.99 will be stunned on that turn.
Clench of the North Wind on 2 target is 4 Ki points. The targets can be at a distance. One attack, likely 0.55 hitting.
Chance to Paralyze is 45%, which means 0.9 will be stunned on that turn.
Pretty close!
At level 13… +5 Prof Bonus, 20 Dex and 20 Wis (+10 to hit, save DC 18).
A stunning strike on 4 attacks is still 5 Ki points (1 per stunning strike, 1 for flurry of blows). Four attacks, likely 2.6 attacks hitting.
Chance to hit is 65%, chance of target to fail save is 55%. Total chance to Stun is 35.75% chance to Stun, so 1.43 will be stunned on that turn.
Clench of the North Wind on 3 targets is 5 Ki points. The targets can be at a distance. One attack, likely 0.65 hitting.
Chance to Paralyze is 55%, which means 1.65 will be stunned on that turn.
So I feel like it’s really dependent on your hit %, save DC, and all of the above factors to really determine which is better. Seems veeerrrry situational.
One error in the above is with stunning strike you only burn ki on a hit so 4 attacks with 55% chance to hit expects to use 2.2ki plus one for FOB so 3.2ki rather than 5.
One error in the above is with stunning strike you only burn ki on a hit so 4 attacks with 55% chance to hit expects to use 2.2ki plus one for FOB so 3.2ki rather than 5.
Our last session put me in the spot where I burned 4 Ki trying to stun the foe, and decided my DC wasn't high enough to handle this one and his beefy Con saves. Opted for Step, so I could stay in place and grant the Barbarian advantage on his attacks that round. It was risky, because a solid blow would have dropped me and a good crit may have flat killed me outright. Thankfully Barb managed to hit enough times to finally drop him.
As a nice perk, our DM handed out new toys for us as we hit level 8 (well, we had to fight for our lives for each player's gift, but...) and my new staff now takes away their reaction when I hit with it. He had noticed I was struggling a bit to really move around and maybe stun multiple foes, for fear of OA as I moved. Now to see how much more effective I can be, bwhahahahah. (I really want a ring of spell storing, so the Druid can fill it up with Haste, then I can haste myself and she can haste the Barbarian)
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Our last session put me in the spot where I burned 4 Ki trying to stun the foe, and decided my DC wasn't high enough to handle this one and his beefy Con saves. Opted for Step, so I could stay in place and grant the Barbarian advantage on his attacks that round. It was risky, because a solid blow would have dropped me and a good crit may have flat killed me outright. Thankfully Barb managed to hit enough times to finally drop him.
As a nice perk, our DM handed out new toys for us as we hit level 8 (well, we had to fight for our lives for each player's gift, but...) and my new staff now takes away their reaction when I hit with it. He had noticed I was struggling a bit to really move around and maybe stun multiple foes, for fear of OA as I moved. Now to see how much more effective I can be, bwhahahahah. (I really want a ring of spell storing, so the Druid can fill it up with Haste, then I can haste myself and she can haste the Barbarian)
one of the drawbacks really to the monk is that equipment wise it really does not function like many other classes, particularly martial ones. But there are not a lot of Magic items that actually work specifically for them. Most all of them have to be home brewed. I mean there are a couple of official ones that have slowly come out like Eldritch Claw Tattoo and Claw insignia. But that's really all. if there were a bit more that leaned into the Monk's special way of doing things somehow the perception about them would be a lot different and they could try to branch out a little more in what they do.
I mean imagine a monk with a piece of equipment that could give them blur, blink, or mirror image meant for the monk. Even if only temporarily. There are many people that would consider them basically OP and broken despite the fact that none of them would actually do damage. Or an item that in some way bolstered what a monk does in the way that certain wands or staves do for spell casters.
Hmmm. Let’s assume the enemies have equal +6 saves vs the Stunning Strike and Hold Person, and an AC of 18.
We can take a level 10 monk with +4 Prof Bonus, 18 Dex and 18 wis (+8 to hit, save DC 16).
A stunning strike on 4 attacks is 5 Ki points (1 per stunning strike, 1 for flurry of blows). Four attacks, likely 1.8 attacks hitting.
Chance to hit is 55%, chance of target to fail save is 45%. Total chance to Stun is 24.75% chance to Stun, so 0.99 will be stunned on that turn.
Clench of the North Wind on 2 target is 4 Ki points. The targets can be at a distance. One attack, likely 0.55 hitting.
Chance to Paralyze is 45%, which means 0.9 will be stunned on that turn.
Pretty close!
At level 13… +5 Prof Bonus, 20 Dex and 20 Wis (+10 to hit, save DC 18).
A stunning strike on 4 attacks is still 5 Ki points (1 per stunning strike, 1 for flurry of blows). Four attacks, likely 2.6 attacks hitting.
Chance to hit is 65%, chance of target to fail save is 55%. Total chance to Stun is 35.75% chance to Stun, so 1.43 will be stunned on that turn.
Clench of the North Wind on 3 targets is 5 Ki points. The targets can be at a distance. One attack, likely 0.65 hitting.
Chance to Paralyze is 55%, which means 1.65 will be stunned on that turn.
So I feel like it’s really dependent on your hit %, save DC, and all of the above factors to really determine which is better. Seems veeerrrry situational.
Paralyze chance on an 18 DC might be even higher than 55% just because plenty of monsters don't have Wis save proficiencies. But otherwise your basically showing what I've been trying to say. One is not better than the other. They are both good. it's just the way that people look at them at a glance and dont' really consider how they are actually using them that gives the perception that one is actually better.
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Yes. But Stunning Strike could just as easily affect only one or if your really unlucky none at all for that same cost (or actually slightly more). While Potential is important it's not the only factor. Otherwise abilities like Stunning Strike and Hold Person would not be situational. It would be easy to argue that because Hold Person can potentially (though unlikely) to last up to 10 turns would always be superior between the two if it was as simple as potential.
Being Different is exactly the point between the two. They are different and they have different uses and they are fairly balanced in the average campaign between the two. Even in costs.
Hmmm. Let’s assume the enemies have equal +6 saves vs the Stunning Strike and Hold Person, and an AC of 18.
We can take a level 10 monk with +4 Prof Bonus, 18 Dex and 18 wis (+8 to hit, save DC 16).
A stunning strike on 4 attacks is 5 Ki points (1 per stunning strike, 1 for flurry of blows). Four attacks, likely 1.8 attacks hitting.
Chance to hit is 55%, chance of target to fail save is 45%. Total chance to Stun is 24.75% chance to Stun, so 0.99 will be stunned on that turn.
Clench of the North Wind on 2 target is 4 Ki points. The targets can be at a distance. One attack, likely 0.55 hitting.
Chance to Paralyze is 45%, which means 0.9 will be stunned on that turn.
Pretty close!
At level 13… +5 Prof Bonus, 20 Dex and 20 Wis (+10 to hit, save DC 18).
A stunning strike on 4 attacks is still 5 Ki points (1 per stunning strike, 1 for flurry of blows). Four attacks, likely 2.6 attacks hitting.
Chance to hit is 65%, chance of target to fail save is 55%. Total chance to Stun is 35.75% chance to Stun, so 1.43 will be stunned on that turn.
Clench of the North Wind on 3 targets is 5 Ki points. The targets can be at a distance. One attack, likely 0.65 hitting.
Chance to Paralyze is 55%, which means 1.65 will be stunned on that turn.
So I feel like it’s really dependent on your hit %, save DC, and all of the above factors to really determine which is better. Seems veeerrrry situational.
One error in the above is with stunning strike you only burn ki on a hit so 4 attacks with 55% chance to hit expects to use 2.2ki plus one for FOB so 3.2ki rather than 5.
Good catch!
Our last session put me in the spot where I burned 4 Ki trying to stun the foe, and decided my DC wasn't high enough to handle this one and his beefy Con saves. Opted for Step, so I could stay in place and grant the Barbarian advantage on his attacks that round. It was risky, because a solid blow would have dropped me and a good crit may have flat killed me outright. Thankfully Barb managed to hit enough times to finally drop him.
As a nice perk, our DM handed out new toys for us as we hit level 8 (well, we had to fight for our lives for each player's gift, but...) and my new staff now takes away their reaction when I hit with it. He had noticed I was struggling a bit to really move around and maybe stun multiple foes, for fear of OA as I moved. Now to see how much more effective I can be, bwhahahahah. (I really want a ring of spell storing, so the Druid can fill it up with Haste, then I can haste myself and she can haste the Barbarian)
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
one of the drawbacks really to the monk is that equipment wise it really does not function like many other classes, particularly martial ones. But there are not a lot of Magic items that actually work specifically for them. Most all of them have to be home brewed. I mean there are a couple of official ones that have slowly come out like Eldritch Claw Tattoo and Claw insignia. But that's really all. if there were a bit more that leaned into the Monk's special way of doing things somehow the perception about them would be a lot different and they could try to branch out a little more in what they do.
I mean imagine a monk with a piece of equipment that could give them blur, blink, or mirror image meant for the monk. Even if only temporarily. There are many people that would consider them basically OP and broken despite the fact that none of them would actually do damage. Or an item that in some way bolstered what a monk does in the way that certain wands or staves do for spell casters.
Paralyze chance on an 18 DC might be even higher than 55% just because plenty of monsters don't have Wis save proficiencies. But otherwise your basically showing what I've been trying to say. One is not better than the other. They are both good. it's just the way that people look at them at a glance and dont' really consider how they are actually using them that gives the perception that one is actually better.