The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Maybe Ki should just be Superiority points(could be renamed to Martial Points) this allows for good synergy with battlemaster.
On that note maybe make Fighter and Monk function like the Spell less Ranger where they get increasing Superiority points as they progress, battlemasters schtick would still be the same; I.E more manuvers and points.
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Maybe Ki should just be Superiority points(could be renamed to Martial Points) this allows for good synergy with battlemaster.
On that note maybe make Fighter and Monk function like the Spell less Ranger where they get increasing Superiority points as they progress, battlemasters schtick would still be the same; I.E more manuvers and points.
So maybe make monks almost a fighter subclass? Really similar gimmicks, but monk gets martial arts and a different armor calculation?
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Maybe Ki should just be Superiority points(could be renamed to Martial Points) this allows for good synergy with battlemaster.
On that note maybe make Fighter and Monk function like the Spell less Ranger where they get increasing Superiority points as they progress, battlemasters schtick would still be the same; I.E more manuvers and points.
So maybe make monks almost a fighter subclass? Really similar gimmicks, but monk gets martial arts and a different armor calculation?
I'd rather they still be their own class but have a resource thats shared by the other martial classes, basically spell slots for martial characters.
Another idea would be to give Ki to most classes, but to really limit the amount. Monks would be the class with the most Ki and the greatest variety of abilties related to it. I could for instance, see Second Wind as a Ki-powered ability.
Another idea would be to give Ki to most classes, but to really limit the amount. Monks would be the class with the most Ki and the greatest variety of abilties related to it. I could for instance, see Second Wind as a Ki-powered ability.
or Spell Slot progression for all classes,Full casters would get Spell Slots only, Martial classes would get Superiorty Slots and half casters get half of each.
1/3 casters would replace a third of their superiority slots with spell slots and I guess Warlocks do the reverse?
Another idea would be to give Ki to most classes, but to really limit the amount. Monks would be the class with the most Ki and the greatest variety of abilties related to it. I could for instance, see Second Wind as a Ki-powered ability.
or Spell Slot progression for all classes,Full casters would get Spell Slots only, Martial classes would get Superiorty Slots and half casters get half of each.
1/3 casters would replace a third of their superiority slots with spell slots and I guess Warlocks do the reverse?
These all seem like drastic changes, which at that point, might as well get rid of Ki altogether. No need to complicate all classes with “Ki” points, or whatever you would want to call them, or spell slots versus superiority slots. Just seems like a whole lot of bookkeeping.
I think Ki on monks is fine. Maybe they can be a subclass resource and removed from the core class altogether. Maybe rework Flurry of Bows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Stunning Strike, and the throwing part of Deflect Missiles to work without Ki. X uses per short or long rest, or something. With the option to use Ki to continue using after the free uses are gone. Then add Ki or other resource to the subclasses that fuel those features. I mean, Battlemasters have their superiority dice, Psi Warriors have the Psychic Energy dice, Rune Knoghts have their runes, and that’s all under the fighter class umbrella.
Or go the opposite and subclass features don’t rely on Ki, only core class features do.
Another idea would be to give Ki to most classes, but to really limit the amount. Monks would be the class with the most Ki and the greatest variety of abilties related to it. I could for instance, see Second Wind as a Ki-powered ability.
or Spell Slot progression for all classes,Full casters would get Spell Slots only, Martial classes would get Superiorty Slots and half casters get half of each.
1/3 casters would replace a third of their superiority slots with spell slots and I guess Warlocks do the reverse?
These all seem like drastic changes, which at that point, might as well get rid of Ki altogether. No need to complicate all classes with “Ki” points, or whatever you would want to call them, or spell slots versus superiority slots. Just seems like a whole lot of bookkeeping.
I think Ki on monks is fine. Maybe they can be a subclass resource and removed from the core class altogether. Maybe rework Flurry of Bows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Stunning Strike, and the throwing part of Deflect Missiles to work without Ki. X uses per short or long rest, or something. With the option to use Ki to continue using after the free uses are gone. Then add Ki or other resource to the subclasses that fuel those features. I mean, Battlemasters have their superiority dice, Psi Warriors have the Psychic Energy dice, Rune Knoghts have their runes, and that’s all under the fighter class umbrella.
Or go the opposite and subclass features don’t rely on Ki, only core class features do.
I think you might've hit the nail, letting Ki fuel the subclass features mostly, alliveates the issue of not having enough Ki to do your Core features.
The Monk is middling to poor if you play as a Only Monk or with minimal multi-classing and avoid trap sub-classes like the Sun-Soul. My point is that it's not well-designed because it doesn't follow the core design philosophy that the devs set out for themselves when they made (most) other classes.
I agree that a class overhaul would be too drastic of a change to happen this edition. Frankly, it probably won't be until 6th edition, if at all, that we see Monks that can shine as much as Clerics or Rogues do on a regular basis.
You can take the Dash or Disengage action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for your turn
You can use your Monk Technique a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus plus your Monk level per short or long rest.
So at level 2 you can do any combination 4 times (higher than you can with Ki) per short rest. All the way up to 26 times at level 20. So it is a boost. But those are just numbers I threw in there for ease. Could be just monk level times per short or long rest, to keep it the same as ki points.
edit: probably should just be monk level
Deflect Missiles can be the same, just make the throw free if you reduce the damage to zero. I don't know if this would be overpowered, but I don't think it would be. Depends on how many times you get attacked at range with something you can catch.
Stunning Strike can be Proficiency Bonus times per short or long rest. Would end up being a nerf but could also be PB+WIS mod to help it out.
That's pretty much all the uses of Ki on the monk, unless I missed something. Then add a resource to the subclasses if they need it. Some features could be changed to SR/LR recharge but they can keep the ki pool as is (not sure what you would do with it at 2nd level since you don't have your subclass yet) and just use the Ki for subclass features.
And I think it would be easy to implement for backwards compatibility for the 2024 update.
So I was thinking. If you made the core monk class non-Ki based you could do something like:
Monk Technique
When you reach 2nd level, you can use your bonus action to do one of the following:
Immediately after you take the attack action, on your turn, you can make two unarmed strikes
You can take the Dodge action on your turn.
You can take the Dash or Disengage action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for your turn
You can use your Monk Technique a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus plus your Monk level per short or long rest.
So at level 2 you can do any combination 4 times (higher than you can with Ki) per short rest. All the way up to 26 times at level 20. So it is a boost. But those are just numbers I threw in there for ease. Could be just monk level times per short or long rest, to keep it the same as ki points.
Deflect Missiles can be the same, just make the throw free if you reduce the damage to zero. I don't know if this would be overpowered, but I don't think it would be. Depends on how many times you get attacked at range with something you can catch.
Stunning Strike can be Proficiency Bonus times per short or long rest. Would end up being a nerf but could also be PB+WIS mod to help it out.
That's pretty much all the uses of Ki on the monk, unless I missed something. Then add a resource to the subclasses if they need it. Some features could be changed to SR/LR recharge but they can keep the ki pool as is (not sure what you would do with it at 2nd level since you don't have your subclass yet) and just use the Ki for subclass features.
I like this approuch, it simplifies the wording on what you can do with your bonus action and in the process adding more uses, also it might finally fix Four elements monk.
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Sorcery Points are a class specific resource that no other class uses.
Superiority dice are a resource that one, only one, subclass uses.
Psionic Energy dice are a resource that only two subclasses uses.
Spell slots are a huge part of D&D, and been around since AD&D, if not called spell slots then (well, at least you had the "Spells usable by class and level" table in AD&D much like the spell slot table in 5E. Yeah, it worked a bit different), so I can see how it is a resource that many classes use. That's just the way D&D is. But 5E has alternate resources that classes and subclasses use, and I don't think Ki is any different.
Maybe I'm just not following your design philosophy train of thought.
Edit: Would making the monk, as a class, free of Ki and only use Ki for subclasses help? Like I mentioned before, Fighters, as a class, don't really have a resource they use. But they have several subclasses that do. Is a Battle Master who multiclasses with another class that does not use Superiority Dice any different from a Monk that multiclasses into a class that does not use Ki? If only the Monk Subclasses use Ki?
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Monks fit in perfectly with typical martial D&D Design.
Martial classes are designed completely differently than caster ones, so the comparison falls flat. Casters are designed with features that empower their spellcasting. Martials are designed to empower their main special unique class-specific resource with the notable exception of Fighter (most Rogue subclasses empower their Sneak Attack which scales to their main class level, Barbarians have rage which they empower so much tier 3/4 it comes to the detriment of actually scaling decently, Monks have ki which is used by most monk subclass and empowers most of their features).
You are right though that not making your own special class-specific resource makes it easier to dip, hence why fighter is generally a A-tier dip for every class in the game, but Fighter is kinda the exception compared to other martials. I mean, the idea of granting all martial characters a uniting resource such as maneuvers has been suggested many times and probably would help yeah. But then that's not a issue with specifically monks so much as it is a issue with martials in general.
As it stands the only major revisions you'd need to make monks "play nice" with multiclassing is remove the insane armor restrictions, Martial Arts applies finesse, make sure each monk subclass doesn't add additional uses for ki at level 3 (more Kensai/Open Hand and less 4E) (move the stuff requiring ki to 6th level and beyond if needed, because by then you actually have spare ki to spend)
People already dip monk for Unarmored Defense, DEX weapons (dedicated weapon) and easy BA attack. Just make those things less niche.
I think the idea of removing the Ki tax from the core features to use its own resource is already a viable enough fix to play nice with multiclassing and libral use of Ki for the subclass features which was the main complaint of four elements monk and stunning strike.
Like we should still keep Ki points as the class feature if flurry of blows,patient defense and step of the wind use a separate resource.
Ki and Font of Magic both increase at the same rate (1 per level), and both the Monk and the Sorcerer have some serious problems. Coincidence?
Yeah, probably. There's not much else unifying these two classes. They play very differently.
Anyway, the main question you ask yourself when you're playing a Monk in combat is generally, "is this the turn where I go all out?" You can basically burn all your resources really quickly, but you can't do it often. Or you can ration them a little bit at a time. It's like a microcosm of the D&D resource economy in general. Is that the right question for Monk, though? Other classes ask different questions. Rogues, for instance, are usually asking "how do I strike with advantage, without overly exposing myself?" They never really ask themselves any questions about burning resources, because they don't have any resources to burn.
I think the Monk would be at its most thematic and most interesting if it was usually asking, "should I attack or block?" As an example: Imagine if your ki was something you could build up by getting close to enemies, or something. Instead of starting full and choosing the speed at which you go empty, you'd start maybe halfway empty and choose when to fill it up and when to instead pour it out. Give it a secondary use that carries value between fights -- say, healing -- and there's now a reason to hold back. Let it keep its current Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows, and there's a reason to go all in. Balance. Very Monk-like.
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Sorcery Points are a class specific resource that no other class uses.
Superiority dice are a resource that one, only one, subclass uses.
Psionic Energy dice are a resource that only two subclasses uses.
The difference between Sorcery Points and Ki is that Sorcery Points are 1 of 2 major resources of Sorcerers. The main utility for Sorcs is still spell slots. A Sorc without Sorcery Points still has access to their spell slots and the 2nd best spell list in the game (but with fewer options than the Wizard). I'm not saying that Sorcerers are perfect. They have their own problems compared to Bards and Wizards, but that's a whole 'nother ish.
What is a Monk without Ki? A really bad Rogue. You have the hit points of a Rogue, a similar emphasis on DEX, and your Unarmored Defense will round out just a bit better AC than a Rogue with light armor + Dex bonus if you're lucky. But no bonus action disengage, dash or hide. Nothing equivalent to the power of a sneak attack.
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes.
What is a Monk without Ki? A really bad Rogue. You have the hit points of a Rogue, a similar emphasis on DEX, and your Unarmored Defense will round out just a bit better AC than a Rogue with light armor + Dex bonus if you're lucky. But no bonus action disengage, dash or hide. Nothing equivalent to the power of a sneak attack.
Tell me what martial class has a "special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes"
The answer is none of them have any resource that other class utilizes (utilizes in this context meaning no other class has a resource that is improved or modified by taking another class).
Your idea of how D&D is designed is nowhere near how D&D is actually designed, D&D literally goes out of its way to ensure no martials has any class-specific resource that other classes can utilize (see Multiclassing rules for Unarmored Defense, and Extra Attack, which coincidently are the only "class resources" that other classes share other than ASIs which don't count)
(edit: note that whenever D&D does give martials resources that carry over to other martials, it's usually solely to the detriment of mutliclassing, like psionic dice)
What's a rogue dip without sneak attack? Expertise, Cunning Action, subclass.
Monk dip without ki? Unarmored Defense, free BA attack, Martial Arts (both for monk weapons and unarmed strikes), subclass.
Monk dips do need to be better, but allowing other classes to use ki isn't a monk overhaul, that's a overhaul of the entire edition. It can work yes, but i feel as though that's far outside the scope of this thread.
Again, to make monk dips better, you just need to make their non-ki features not as niche. Allow monks that aren't super-reliant on Unarmored Defense and now suddenly it's a must-have for anyone using the Unarmed Fighting Style. Allow Martial Arts to work with Sneak Attack, and now Monk/Rogue dips are really nice (Deflect Projectiles to weaponize ranged reactions, Unarmored Defense is better than studded for any WIS-based rogue subclasses, many monk subclasses work great with rogue like Shadow, and a always available BA attack is never bad.
Ki isn't the main focus for monk dips because due to your main class you don't need to rely on flurry of blows for decent damage, it just serves as a really good panic button.)
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes.
What is a Monk without Ki? A really bad Rogue. You have the hit points of a Rogue, a similar emphasis on DEX, and your Unarmored Defense will round out just a bit better AC than a Rogue with light armor + Dex bonus if you're lucky. But no bonus action disengage, dash or hide. Nothing equivalent to the power of a sneak attack.
Tell me what martial class has a "special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes"
The answer is none of them have any resource that other class utilizes (utilizes in this context meaning no other class has a resource that is improved or modified by taking another class).
Your idea of how D&D is designed is nowhere near how D&D is actually designed, D&D literally goes out of its way to ensure no martials has any class-specific resource that other classes can utilize (see Multiclassing rules for Unarmored Defense, and Extra Attack, which coincidently are the only "class resources" that other classes share other than ASIs which don't count)
(edit: note that whenever D&D does give martials resources that carry over to other martials, it's usually solely to the detriment of mutliclassing, like psionic dice)
What's a rogue dip without sneak attack? Expertise, Cunning Action, subclass.
Monk dip without ki? Unarmored Defense, free BA attack, Martial Arts (both for monk weapons and unarmed strikes), subclass.
Monk dips do need to be better, but allowing other classes to use ki isn't a monk overhaul, that's a overhaul of the entire edition. It can work yes, but i feel as though that's far outside the scope of this thread.
I don't think you understand my point. We already agree that Monk reliance on Ki is to the Monk's detriment. We also agree that the Monk-only resource (Ki) isn't something common to most martial classes, which we agree is a difference that largely hurts the Monk when people try to dip into other classes.
My argument for giving all or most classes Ki isn't going to happen this edition. I know that. You know that. I made that argument to point out how silly it is that Monks rely on an exclusive resource, which is contrary to the the design philosophy of 5E. So there are two solutions to making Ki a non-exclusive resource. The first, as you suggest, is to reduce Monk reliance on Ki in the first place. The second is to give more classes some "skin in the game" by having more classes (like Fighters, Rogues, etc.) use Ki as well, but also Not be reliant on Ki for their most-often-used abilities. Obviously, the solution more likely to be adopted by WotC is to reduce Ki consumption by Monks, IF they do anything about it at all.
The disagreement is that I don't think the difference is detrimental to the monk. Not anymore than other classes not getting rage or sneak attack is to the detriment of mutliclassing barbarian/rogue.
I don't think the monk's reliance on ki is something that needs to be removed.
Edit: I think as long as monk subclasses don't introduce new uses for ki at level 3, monk's are in a pretty good place ki-wise. It's mostly their other features that make multiclassing less appealing.
The disagreement is that I don't think the difference is detrimental to the monk. Not anymore than other classes not getting rage or sneak attack is to the detriment of mutliclassing barbarian/rogue.
I don't think the monk's reliance on ki is something that needs to be removed.
Edit: I think as long as monk subclasses don't introduce new uses for ki at level 3, monk's are in a pretty good place ki-wise. It's mostly their other features that make multiclassing less appealing.
Monk multi-classes are good primarily when it ISN'T reliant on the Monk-exclusive resource. I think you know that already. My point is, that most people dip Monk not primarily for Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense or Step of the Wind. There is an opportunity cost to dipping any class outside of your core.
The stuff Monks get that don't currently cost Ki aren't that great. A bonus action for the opportunity to maybe do 1d4 or 1d6 martial arts damage is laughably bad for most classes, esp. by level 8, when most martials will already have picked up a feat to boost damage.
Unarmored Defense isn't useful when you can dip Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin for medium armor, which gets boosted by DEX. AND most of those classes let you use a shield. Unless you know that your campaign will not get magic items and the DM is being very stingy about treasure in general, UDefense is not a good deal.
So the only potentially good Ki-less features of the Monk (in most campaigns) are Unarmored Movement and the ability to use DEX instead of STR for use of a Monk weapon. The latter of which is mostly useless to Rogue multiclasses b/c Rogues already use finesse weapons anyway if they aren't mostly built for ranged attacks (already use DEX). The benefit of DEX instead of STR as a Monk weapon would be for niche Ranger and Fighter builds.
I like the way you think, Choir. I agree that it would be interesting for Monks to be the resource-management martial class that can recharge their resource (Ki) without relying exclusively on the rest mechanic.
Maybe Ki should just be Superiority points(could be renamed to Martial Points) this allows for good synergy with battlemaster.
On that note maybe make Fighter and Monk function like the Spell less Ranger where they get increasing Superiority points as they progress, battlemasters schtick would still be the same; I.E more manuvers and points.
So maybe make monks almost a fighter subclass? Really similar gimmicks, but monk gets martial arts and a different armor calculation?
I'd rather they still be their own class but have a resource thats shared by the other martial classes, basically spell slots for martial characters.
Another idea would be to give Ki to most classes, but to really limit the amount. Monks would be the class with the most Ki and the greatest variety of abilties related to it. I could for instance, see Second Wind as a Ki-powered ability.
or Spell Slot progression for all classes,Full casters would get Spell Slots only, Martial classes would get Superiorty Slots and half casters get half of each.
1/3 casters would replace a third of their superiority slots with spell slots and I guess Warlocks do the reverse?
These all seem like drastic changes, which at that point, might as well get rid of Ki altogether. No need to complicate all classes with “Ki” points, or whatever you would want to call them, or spell slots versus superiority slots. Just seems like a whole lot of bookkeeping.
I think Ki on monks is fine. Maybe they can be a subclass resource and removed from the core class altogether. Maybe rework Flurry of Bows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Stunning Strike, and the throwing part of Deflect Missiles to work without Ki. X uses per short or long rest, or something. With the option to use Ki to continue using after the free uses are gone. Then add Ki or other resource to the subclasses that fuel those features. I mean, Battlemasters have their superiority dice, Psi Warriors have the Psychic Energy dice, Rune Knoghts have their runes, and that’s all under the fighter class umbrella.
Or go the opposite and subclass features don’t rely on Ki, only core class features do.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think you might've hit the nail, letting Ki fuel the subclass features mostly, alliveates the issue of not having enough Ki to do your Core features.
The Monk is middling to poor if you play as a Only Monk or with minimal multi-classing and avoid trap sub-classes like the Sun-Soul. My point is that it's not well-designed because it doesn't follow the core design philosophy that the devs set out for themselves when they made (most) other classes.
I agree that a class overhaul would be too drastic of a change to happen this edition. Frankly, it probably won't be until 6th edition, if at all, that we see Monks that can shine as much as Clerics or Rogues do on a regular basis.
So I was thinking. If you made the core monk class non-Ki based you could do something like:
So at level 2 you can do any combination 4 times (higher than you can with Ki) per short rest. All the way up to 26 times at level 20. So it is a boost. But those are just numbers I threw in there for ease. Could be just monk level times per short or long rest, to keep it the same as ki points.edit: probably should just be monk level
Deflect Missiles can be the same, just make the throw free if you reduce the damage to zero. I don't know if this would be overpowered, but I don't think it would be. Depends on how many times you get attacked at range with something you can catch.
Stunning Strike can be Proficiency Bonus times per short or long rest. Would end up being a nerf but could also be PB+WIS mod to help it out.
That's pretty much all the uses of Ki on the monk, unless I missed something. Then add a resource to the subclasses if they need it. Some features could be changed to SR/LR recharge but they can keep the ki pool as is (not sure what you would do with it at 2nd level since you don't have your subclass yet) and just use the Ki for subclass features.
And I think it would be easy to implement for backwards compatibility for the 2024 update.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I like this approuch, it simplifies the wording on what you can do with your bonus action and in the process adding more uses, also it might finally fix Four elements monk.
Sorcery Points are a class specific resource that no other class uses.
Superiority dice are a resource that one, only one, subclass uses.
Psionic Energy dice are a resource that only two subclasses uses.
Spell slots are a huge part of D&D, and been around since AD&D, if not called spell slots then (well, at least you had the "Spells usable by class and level" table in AD&D much like the spell slot table in 5E. Yeah, it worked a bit different), so I can see how it is a resource that many classes use. That's just the way D&D is. But 5E has alternate resources that classes and subclasses use, and I don't think Ki is any different.
Maybe I'm just not following your design philosophy train of thought.
Edit: Would making the monk, as a class, free of Ki and only use Ki for subclasses help? Like I mentioned before, Fighters, as a class, don't really have a resource they use. But they have several subclasses that do. Is a Battle Master who multiclasses with another class that does not use Superiority Dice any different from a Monk that multiclasses into a class that does not use Ki? If only the Monk Subclasses use Ki?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Monks fit in perfectly with typical martial D&D Design.
Martial classes are designed completely differently than caster ones, so the comparison falls flat. Casters are designed with features that empower their spellcasting. Martials are designed to empower their main special unique class-specific resource with the notable exception of Fighter (most Rogue subclasses empower their Sneak Attack which scales to their main class level, Barbarians have rage which they empower so much tier 3/4 it comes to the detriment of actually scaling decently, Monks have ki which is used by most monk subclass and empowers most of their features).
You are right though that not making your own special class-specific resource makes it easier to dip, hence why fighter is generally a A-tier dip for every class in the game, but Fighter is kinda the exception compared to other martials. I mean, the idea of granting all martial characters a uniting resource such as maneuvers has been suggested many times and probably would help yeah. But then that's not a issue with specifically monks so much as it is a issue with martials in general.
As it stands the only major revisions you'd need to make monks "play nice" with multiclassing is remove the insane armor restrictions, Martial Arts applies finesse, make sure each monk subclass doesn't add additional uses for ki at level 3 (more Kensai/Open Hand and less 4E) (move the stuff requiring ki to 6th level and beyond if needed, because by then you actually have spare ki to spend)
People already dip monk for Unarmored Defense, DEX weapons (dedicated weapon) and easy BA attack. Just make those things less niche.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I think the idea of removing the Ki tax from the core features to use its own resource is already a viable enough fix to play nice with multiclassing and libral use of Ki for the subclass features which was the main complaint of four elements monk and stunning strike.
Like we should still keep Ki points as the class feature if flurry of blows,patient defense and step of the wind use a separate resource.
Ki and Font of Magic both increase at the same rate (1 per level), and both the Monk and the Sorcerer have some serious problems. Coincidence?
Yeah, probably. There's not much else unifying these two classes. They play very differently.
Anyway, the main question you ask yourself when you're playing a Monk in combat is generally, "is this the turn where I go all out?" You can basically burn all your resources really quickly, but you can't do it often. Or you can ration them a little bit at a time. It's like a microcosm of the D&D resource economy in general. Is that the right question for Monk, though? Other classes ask different questions. Rogues, for instance, are usually asking "how do I strike with advantage, without overly exposing myself?" They never really ask themselves any questions about burning resources, because they don't have any resources to burn.
I think the Monk would be at its most thematic and most interesting if it was usually asking, "should I attack or block?" As an example: Imagine if your ki was something you could build up by getting close to enemies, or something. Instead of starting full and choosing the speed at which you go empty, you'd start maybe halfway empty and choose when to fill it up and when to instead pour it out. Give it a secondary use that carries value between fights -- say, healing -- and there's now a reason to hold back. Let it keep its current Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows, and there's a reason to go all in. Balance. Very Monk-like.
Might be too extreme of a rework, but who knows.
The difference between Sorcery Points and Ki is that Sorcery Points are 1 of 2 major resources of Sorcerers. The main utility for Sorcs is still spell slots. A Sorc without Sorcery Points still has access to their spell slots and the 2nd best spell list in the game (but with fewer options than the Wizard). I'm not saying that Sorcerers are perfect. They have their own problems compared to Bards and Wizards, but that's a whole 'nother ish.
What is a Monk without Ki? A really bad Rogue. You have the hit points of a Rogue, a similar emphasis on DEX, and your Unarmored Defense will round out just a bit better AC than a Rogue with light armor + Dex bonus if you're lucky. But no bonus action disengage, dash or hide. Nothing equivalent to the power of a sneak attack.
Tell me what martial class has a "special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes"
The answer is none of them have any resource that other class utilizes (utilizes in this context meaning no other class has a resource that is improved or modified by taking another class).
Your idea of how D&D is designed is nowhere near how D&D is actually designed, D&D literally goes out of its way to ensure no martials has any class-specific resource that other classes can utilize (see Multiclassing rules for Unarmored Defense, and Extra Attack, which coincidently are the only "class resources" that other classes share other than ASIs which don't count)
(edit: note that whenever D&D does give martials resources that carry over to other martials, it's usually solely to the detriment of mutliclassing, like psionic dice)
What's a rogue dip without sneak attack? Expertise, Cunning Action, subclass.
Monk dip without ki? Unarmored Defense, free BA attack, Martial Arts (both for monk weapons and unarmed strikes), subclass.
Monk dips do need to be better, but allowing other classes to use ki isn't a monk overhaul, that's a overhaul of the entire edition. It can work yes, but i feel as though that's far outside the scope of this thread.
Again, to make monk dips better, you just need to make their non-ki features not as niche. Allow monks that aren't super-reliant on Unarmored Defense and now suddenly it's a must-have for anyone using the Unarmed Fighting Style. Allow Martial Arts to work with Sneak Attack, and now Monk/Rogue dips are really nice (Deflect Projectiles to weaponize ranged reactions, Unarmored Defense is better than studded for any WIS-based rogue subclasses, many monk subclasses work great with rogue like Shadow, and a always available BA attack is never bad.
Ki isn't the main focus for monk dips because due to your main class you don't need to rely on flurry of blows for decent damage, it just serves as a really good panic button.)
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I don't think you understand my point. We already agree that Monk reliance on Ki is to the Monk's detriment. We also agree that the Monk-only resource (Ki) isn't something common to most martial classes, which we agree is a difference that largely hurts the Monk when people try to dip into other classes.
My argument for giving all or most classes Ki isn't going to happen this edition. I know that. You know that. I made that argument to point out how silly it is that Monks rely on an exclusive resource, which is contrary to the the design philosophy of 5E. So there are two solutions to making Ki a non-exclusive resource. The first, as you suggest, is to reduce Monk reliance on Ki in the first place. The second is to give more classes some "skin in the game" by having more classes (like Fighters, Rogues, etc.) use Ki as well, but also Not be reliant on Ki for their most-often-used abilities. Obviously, the solution more likely to be adopted by WotC is to reduce Ki consumption by Monks, IF they do anything about it at all.
The disagreement is that I don't think the difference is detrimental to the monk. Not anymore than other classes not getting rage or sneak attack is to the detriment of mutliclassing barbarian/rogue.
I don't think the monk's reliance on ki is something that needs to be removed.
Edit: I think as long as monk subclasses don't introduce new uses for ki at level 3, monk's are in a pretty good place ki-wise. It's mostly their other features that make multiclassing less appealing.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Monk multi-classes are good primarily when it ISN'T reliant on the Monk-exclusive resource. I think you know that already. My point is, that most people dip Monk not primarily for Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense or Step of the Wind. There is an opportunity cost to dipping any class outside of your core.
The stuff Monks get that don't currently cost Ki aren't that great. A bonus action for the opportunity to maybe do 1d4 or 1d6 martial arts damage is laughably bad for most classes, esp. by level 8, when most martials will already have picked up a feat to boost damage.
Unarmored Defense isn't useful when you can dip Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin for medium armor, which gets boosted by DEX. AND most of those classes let you use a shield. Unless you know that your campaign will not get magic items and the DM is being very stingy about treasure in general, UDefense is not a good deal.
So the only potentially good Ki-less features of the Monk (in most campaigns) are Unarmored Movement and the ability to use DEX instead of STR for use of a Monk weapon. The latter of which is mostly useless to Rogue multiclasses b/c Rogues already use finesse weapons anyway if they aren't mostly built for ranged attacks (already use DEX). The benefit of DEX instead of STR as a Monk weapon would be for niche Ranger and Fighter builds.
I like the way you think, Choir. I agree that it would be interesting for Monks to be the resource-management martial class that can recharge their resource (Ki) without relying exclusively on the rest mechanic.