I'm curious what everyone thinks about this. The ability reads...
Fist of Unbroken Air. You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don’t push it or knock it prone.
I read this as the additional ki is spend after the saving throw is rolled, do to the intentional timing of that being mentioned literally after the part about "On a failed save...". It also uses the word "spend" not "spent".
For an added bit of fun, post your answer to the poll in the comments along with whether or not you think the Way of the Four Elements is a “weak” monk subclass.
I answered after the saving throw is rolled, and I don’t think they are a weak monk subclass.
I read it the same way. It first says to spend 2 Ki and pick a creature. Then if they fail the save they take damage plus the additional per Ki point spent.
Kind of like the Paladin’s smite except instead of waiting to see if you hit before committing to using a spell slot, it’s waiting for the save before committing to using Ki.
4E is a weaker subclass compared to most, I think. Not saying it’s terrible though. But Elemental Disciplines are the only subclass feature they get. And one that they have to take at 3rd level is basically a cantrip-like ability. With the limited number of ED’s they get, they should also get subclass features alongside the ED’s and Elemental Attunement should just be a subclass feature.
I see the argument that RAW you could spend the ki after the saving throw is made, but I think RAI the ki is meant to be committed before it interacts with the enemy. This is for 2 reasons:
i) Thematically, you are throwing a blast of compressed air at an enemy. If you are empowering this blast with ki, it seems odd being able to buff the blast from 30 feet away after you are no longer in contact with it.
ii) From a game design standpoint, it just seems more "fair" that you have to choose to ante up more points for a more powerful effect before you know the outcome. D&D is at its core a game of chance and risk/reward, and IIRC there are very few abilities in the game that let you decide to make something more powerful after success/failure was already determined. ThriKreen's smite example is good counterpoint, though
Is 4EM weak? I wouldnt say so definitively. I have seen many good arguments for how it could be utilized and the Ki-Empowered Strike option from Tasha's definitely helps. I have had fun trying to rework the subclass from the ground up, but I have one or two builds in mind for a classic PHB 4EM that Id enjoy playing (at least for a one shot, maybe not a full campaign)
That being said, weak or not I do think it is flawed and could use some more love. Considering the number of sourcebooks we have gotten since the PHB is released, I think the 4EM is starved for more discipline options (both those unique to the subclass and being able to mimic spells), and that they should be able to have more of them prepared. I also wish that they got other subclass abilities that tied it back to the main class's mechanics or gave them abilities that dont require ki. For example, I think Tasha's should have given the 4EM the Deflect Energy feature as an optional subclass feature and given something else to Astral Self.
I interpret it as after; the way I see it you've thrown the "air punch" for 2 Ki then you're spending more Ki to either increase the strength of the blast as it connects, or you're following up with additional blasts as your target fights to remain on their feet before being thrown away.
Makes it a very anime ability and I like it that way.
Like sfPanzer I don't think Four Elements is weak as such, it's just clunky given that you're already a bit starved for Ki points; simplest homebrew is to give them proficiency bonus extra Ki points that can only be spent on elemental disciplines, recovered on a long rest. Not a huge boost, but gives you more Ki to work with early on.
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I see the argument that RAW you could spend the ki after the saving throw is made, but I think RAI the ki is meant to be committed before it interacts with the enemy. This is for 2 reasons:
i) Thematically, you are throwing a blast of compressed air at an enemy. If you are empowering this blast with ki, it seems odd being able to buff the blast from 30 feet away after you are no longer in contact with it.
ii) From a game design standpoint, it just seems more "fair" that you have to choose to ante up more points for a more powerful effect before you know the outcome. D&D is at its core a game of chance and risk/reward, and IIRC there are very few abilities in the game that let you decide to make something more powerful after success/failure was already determined. ThriKreen's smite example is good counterpoint, though
Is 4EM weak? I wouldnt say so definitively. I have seen many good arguments for how it could be utilized and the Ki-Empowered Strike option from Tasha's definitely helps. I have had fun trying to rework the subclass from the ground up, but I have one or two builds in mind for a classic PHB 4EM that Id enjoy playing (at least for a one shot, maybe not a full campaign)
That being said, weak or not I do think it is flawed and could use some more love. Considering the number of sourcebooks we have gotten since the PHB is released, I think the 4EM is starved for more discipline options (both those unique to the subclass and being able to mimic spells), and that they should be able to have more of them prepared. I also wish that they got other subclass abilities that tied it back to the main class's mechanics or gave them abilities that dont require ki. For example, I think Tasha's should have given the 4EM the Deflect Energy feature as an optional subclass feature and given something else to Astral Self.
1) It's not unusual for similar moves in anime and such to get empowered after connecting depending on how much control the user has over their moves and the Monk definitely draws a lot of inspiration from various eastern media so it's not that weird imo.
2) Considering there are other features that let you decide after knowing whether your hit connects or not I don't think this argument holds any weight at all.
2) How many abilities let you decide after knowing if a creature succeeds on a saving throw? Thats the part that seems unorthadox to me from the standpoint of exisiting 5e abilities. There are a fair number (although still rare) of effects that let you decide to add extra damage after landing an attack roll, but I cannot think of any that let you choose to "upcast/empower" the ability after a creature fails a saving throw.
Thats the key difference. Its not after a hit connects. Its after knowing the outcome of a saving throw. Thats what makes this ability different from something like Divine Smite or (for a similar monk mechanic) the Mercy Monk's "Hand of Harm".
To be clear, I am fine with any DM who rules that you can add more to this ability afterward (heck, I might even feel inclined to do so because it does seem fun), but it just seems odd enough from a mechanical standpoint for it to be less certain if that was the intended effect or not.
Unprecedented, maybe, but for a game and fanbase that feeds off of RAW…
1. “As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you.”
2. “That creature must make a Strength saving throw.”
3. “On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone.”
One bit of love I think 4EM could use is reprinting their abilities to make the language more clear for situations like this.
As another example of weird 4EM text, the Disciple of the Elements feature states: "When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn magical disciplines that harness the power of the four elements. A discipline requires you to spend ki points each time you use it." and then immediately after states "You know the Elemental Attunement discipline and one other elemental discipline of your choice",
Does this mean, RAW, that Elemental Attunement requires ki to use despite not having a listed cost in its description, because all disciplines require that you spend ki points?
From one of the previous threads, I know there was also some discussion about things like Fist of Unbroken Air and Fangs of the Fire Snake not having any upper cap on the number of ki you can spend at a time because the ki limit is only included in the section for casting elemental spells.
I am fine with any of these interpretations going any way, but it does seem like 4EM is riddled with things that are seemingly unclear or not well defined.
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It is unfortunate to be sure. I am surprised there is only one entry in Sage Advice for 4EM stuff. Id love it if they clarified some of it because some of these RAW interpretations are really interesting
It is unfortunate to be sure. I am surprised there is only one entry in Sage Advice for 4EM stuff. Id love it if they clarified some of it because some of these RAW interpretations are really interesting
I think really at this point we're just waiting until 2024 when they'll presumably re-release all of the existing classes and sub-classes. The question is whether they'll somehow find time to make four elements even harder to use. 😉
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It just occurred to me that Famgs of the Fire Snake also lets the monk spend ki only after a hit lands, so there is precedent within the subclass.
Thats still a "on a hit" ability. To the best of my knowledge there is no other ability in 5e that lets you choose to spend more resources and apply more damage after knowing the result of a saving throw against the effect.
As sfPanzer has stated, it is not necessarily a broken mechanic and as I have previously commented, I am okay with it being ruled as "after" by any DM; however, the lack of other abilities in the game that work the same way makes me doubt it was the designer's intention for this discipline.
To the best of my knowledge, the only abilities that exist in game that let you modify the outcome after a saving throw has been made are reactionary abilities/spells like Silvery Barbs, but even those are separate effects and only act to modify the save, not empower the original effect which triggered it.
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Why does there need to be another ability that does the same thing? What kind of metric is that? Would this not be a pure case of RAW?
If there is something that seems strange or unclear about the way an ability is written, then checking for an ability that works the same way would be a good way to see if it was the author's intent for the ability to work that way.
If there is only one case in the whole game of a mechanic that works a certain way (especially post-Tashas and Xanathars), then it at least makes me doubt it is RAI regardless of if it is RAW (which do not always line up according to other Sage Advice). I am not asserting that my interpretation is for certain correct, but just explaining where my doubts are coming from. Why is Fist of Unbroken Air the only ability in 5e (and the only ability in the 4EM's disciplines) that lets you empower it after the saving throw is determined? Im sure this could have been applied to plenty of newer abilities/spells as well to make them more interesting.
I also feel that treating things based on a "pure case of RAW" is not necessarily the way you want to approach 5e mechanics in the first place.
Ok. I thought someone said that RAW Fist of Unbroken Air was pretty clear, which I agree with, but that may not be RAI. There is no RAI for this ability.
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I'm curious what everyone thinks about this. The ability reads...
Fist of Unbroken Air. You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don’t push it or knock it prone.
I read this as the additional ki is spend after the saving throw is rolled, do to the intentional timing of that being mentioned literally after the part about "On a failed save...". It also uses the word "spend" not "spent".
For an added bit of fun, post your answer to the poll in the comments along with whether or not you think the Way of the Four Elements is a “weak” monk subclass.
I answered after the saving throw is rolled, and I don’t think they are a weak monk subclass.
I read it the same way. It first says to spend 2 Ki and pick a creature. Then if they fail the save they take damage plus the additional per Ki point spent.
Kind of like the Paladin’s smite except instead of waiting to see if you hit before committing to using a spell slot, it’s waiting for the save before committing to using Ki.
4E is a weaker subclass compared to most, I think. Not saying it’s terrible though. But Elemental Disciplines are the only subclass feature they get. And one that they have to take at 3rd level is basically a cantrip-like ability. With the limited number of ED’s they get, they should also get subclass features alongside the ED’s and Elemental Attunement should just be a subclass feature.
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I see the argument that RAW you could spend the ki after the saving throw is made, but I think RAI the ki is meant to be committed before it interacts with the enemy. This is for 2 reasons:
i) Thematically, you are throwing a blast of compressed air at an enemy. If you are empowering this blast with ki, it seems odd being able to buff the blast from 30 feet away after you are no longer in contact with it.
ii) From a game design standpoint, it just seems more "fair" that you have to choose to ante up more points for a more powerful effect before you know the outcome. D&D is at its core a game of chance and risk/reward, and IIRC there are very few abilities in the game that let you decide to make something more powerful after success/failure was already determined. ThriKreen's smite example is good counterpoint, though
Is 4EM weak? I wouldnt say so definitively. I have seen many good arguments for how it could be utilized and the Ki-Empowered Strike option from Tasha's definitely helps. I have had fun trying to rework the subclass from the ground up, but I have one or two builds in mind for a classic PHB 4EM that Id enjoy playing (at least for a one shot, maybe not a full campaign)
That being said, weak or not I do think it is flawed and could use some more love. Considering the number of sourcebooks we have gotten since the PHB is released, I think the 4EM is starved for more discipline options (both those unique to the subclass and being able to mimic spells), and that they should be able to have more of them prepared. I also wish that they got other subclass abilities that tied it back to the main class's mechanics or gave them abilities that dont require ki. For example, I think Tasha's should have given the 4EM the Deflect Energy feature as an optional subclass feature and given something else to Astral Self.
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The Way of the Four Elements needs all the help it can get. After.
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I interpret it as after; the way I see it you've thrown the "air punch" for 2 Ki then you're spending more Ki to either increase the strength of the blast as it connects, or you're following up with additional blasts as your target fights to remain on their feet before being thrown away.
Makes it a very anime ability and I like it that way.
Like sfPanzer I don't think Four Elements is weak as such, it's just clunky given that you're already a bit starved for Ki points; simplest homebrew is to give them proficiency bonus extra Ki points that can only be spent on elemental disciplines, recovered on a long rest. Not a huge boost, but gives you more Ki to work with early on.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
2) How many abilities let you decide after knowing if a creature succeeds on a saving throw? Thats the part that seems unorthadox to me from the standpoint of exisiting 5e abilities. There are a fair number (although still rare) of effects that let you decide to add extra damage after landing an attack roll, but I cannot think of any that let you choose to "upcast/empower" the ability after a creature fails a saving throw.
Thats the key difference. Its not after a hit connects. Its after knowing the outcome of a saving throw. Thats what makes this ability different from something like Divine Smite or (for a similar monk mechanic) the Mercy Monk's "Hand of Harm".
To be clear, I am fine with any DM who rules that you can add more to this ability afterward (heck, I might even feel inclined to do so because it does seem fun), but it just seems odd enough from a mechanical standpoint for it to be less certain if that was the intended effect or not.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Unprecedented, maybe, but for a game and fanbase that feeds off of RAW…
1. “As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you.”
2. “That creature must make a Strength saving throw.”
3. “On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone.”
One bit of love I think 4EM could use is reprinting their abilities to make the language more clear for situations like this.
As another example of weird 4EM text, the Disciple of the Elements feature states: "When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn magical disciplines that harness the power of the four elements. A discipline requires you to spend ki points each time you use it." and then immediately after states "You know the Elemental Attunement discipline and one other elemental discipline of your choice",
Does this mean, RAW, that Elemental Attunement requires ki to use despite not having a listed cost in its description, because all disciplines require that you spend ki points?
From one of the previous threads, I know there was also some discussion about things like Fist of Unbroken Air and Fangs of the Fire Snake not having any upper cap on the number of ki you can spend at a time because the ki limit is only included in the section for casting elemental spells.
I am fine with any of these interpretations going any way, but it does seem like 4EM is riddled with things that are seemingly unclear or not well defined.
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I’ll admit that that is some awful language in terms of clarity.
It is unfortunate to be sure. I am surprised there is only one entry in Sage Advice for 4EM stuff. Id love it if they clarified some of it because some of these RAW interpretations are really interesting
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I think really at this point we're just waiting until 2024 when they'll presumably re-release all of the existing classes and sub-classes. The question is whether they'll somehow find time to make four elements even harder to use. 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It just occurred to me that Famgs of the Fire Snake also lets the monk spend ki only after a hit lands, so there is precedent within the subclass.
Thats still a "on a hit" ability. To the best of my knowledge there is no other ability in 5e that lets you choose to spend more resources and apply more damage after knowing the result of a saving throw against the effect.
As sfPanzer has stated, it is not necessarily a broken mechanic and as I have previously commented, I am okay with it being ruled as "after" by any DM; however, the lack of other abilities in the game that work the same way makes me doubt it was the designer's intention for this discipline.
To the best of my knowledge, the only abilities that exist in game that let you modify the outcome after a saving throw has been made are reactionary abilities/spells like Silvery Barbs, but even those are separate effects and only act to modify the save, not empower the original effect which triggered it.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Why does there need to be another ability that does the same thing? What kind of metric is that? Would this not be a pure case of RAW?
If there is something that seems strange or unclear about the way an ability is written, then checking for an ability that works the same way would be a good way to see if it was the author's intent for the ability to work that way.
If there is only one case in the whole game of a mechanic that works a certain way (especially post-Tashas and Xanathars), then it at least makes me doubt it is RAI regardless of if it is RAW (which do not always line up according to other Sage Advice). I am not asserting that my interpretation is for certain correct, but just explaining where my doubts are coming from. Why is Fist of Unbroken Air the only ability in 5e (and the only ability in the 4EM's disciplines) that lets you empower it after the saving throw is determined? Im sure this could have been applied to plenty of newer abilities/spells as well to make them more interesting.
I also feel that treating things based on a "pure case of RAW" is not necessarily the way you want to approach 5e mechanics in the first place.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Ok. I thought someone said that RAW Fist of Unbroken Air was pretty clear, which I agree with, but that may not be RAI. There is no RAI for this ability.