I didn’t know this standard thing is an issue. Sounds like I have to be careful when it becomes too pvp and it’s not coop anymore. When it becomes far removed from actual gameplay in the present moment reality. In a realm of analysis that confuses the player like myself and trying to destroy DnD.
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I love the new app, I can teach the combat system over a few days, as I am a good teacher.
I think from the Jeramy Crawford reviews of the classes made for ph is fantastic, Monk is coming into there own finally, I can play a Monk knowing that I don’t have to rely on the word evasion for avoiding the slings and arrows that come my way in daily life. Deflect arrows came from the myth of sloppy Chang a tai chi master. Open hand technique is also tai chi. I think the hint is to learn tai chi for players like myself.
I’m still not sure what you mean by this or the comment on smelling too much like Evoker. Evasion has been part of Rogues and Monks since 2014. I mean, I can understand if there is an issue concerning believability about rogues and monks dodging a fireball, but it isn’t really too different than about other class making the save to take/dodging half the damage.
I think from the Jeramy Crawford reviews of the classes made for ph is fantastic, Monk is coming into there own finally, I can play a Monk knowing that I don’t have to rely on the word evasion for avoiding the slings and arrows that come my way in daily life. Deflect arrows came from the myth of sloppy Chang a tai chi master. Open hand technique is also tai chi. I think the hint is to learn tai chi for players like myself.
I’m still not sure what you mean by this or the comment on smelling too much like Evoker. Evasion has been part of Rogues and Monks since 2014. I mean, I can understand if there is an issue concerning believability about rogues and monks dodging a fireball, but it isn’t really too different than about other class making the save to take/dodging half the damage.
I played a monk with an evoker that later became my dungeon master, he was DMing Dungeon of the mad mage, sometimes a person would come in and play an evoker and of course I was playing a Monk. The Evoker was young and didn't have a cantrip so I suggested firebolt to help, but I didn't know the DM already had experience with this Person, so I didn't know the social dynamics(like I could analyze it anyways). He was aggressive and I was evasive in our social communication. Anyways after the evoker stopped playing, the elder DM said "Evoker" with an inflection like it was trivial D and D and disdain for the trope. Then at the end of the campaign he said "evasion" with the same inflection in his voice. Anyways that's as best as I can explain it. It's one of those things where you almost have to be there in context to understand what he was getting at.
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I love the new app, I can teach the combat system over a few days, as I am a good teacher.
I think from the Jeramy Crawford reviews of the classes made for ph is fantastic, Monk is coming into there own finally, I can play a Monk knowing that I don’t have to rely on the word evasion for avoiding the slings and arrows that come my way in daily life. Deflect arrows came from the myth of sloppy Chang a tai chi master. Open hand technique is also tai chi. I think the hint is to learn tai chi for players like myself.
The whole point of the Monk was that while other martials were tougher in direct melee, the Monk had various other defensive features that protected from other damage in ways those other martials lacked.
Deflect Attacks exists because of people who genuinely expect the Monk to be better in offense AND defense, at the same time, than every other martial. (Ignoring the fact that overpowered features and feats and poorly-designed mechanics the Monk can't readily make use of mean that every other martial is more powerful than the Monk, on top of getting new options whereas the Monk has fewer options in 2024 5e...basically, the 2024 5e Monk is a testament to how Crawford idolizing and pandering to the optimizer crowd makes the game utter garbage, and just how genuinely short-sighted and ignorant of how the game works such optimizers are.)
Though I’m not into monte hall, I’m a power player since high school, the problem was I played a ranger, and monks, and a cleric. In 3.5 I mainly did flurry of blows and stunning strikes looking forward to dimension door. Alignment is now a thing in ph and the dmg, I can’t be monte hall anymore because attunement to 3 magic items. Always have a bag of holding. Let’s face it the 5e Player’s Handbook monk sucked. I was in need of the durable feat and mobile feats many times and still will be. I try to stay lawful neutral and stick to my personal code of impartiality like Gygax suggested DM’s be. In DnD now they tell me what happens at 0 hp depending upon alignment I depart to one of the outer planes, still making death saves. Many monks try and stay lawful neutral.
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I love the new app, I can teach the combat system over a few days, as I am a good teacher.
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
I agree monks are in a pretty good spot. And I don’t think they “need” WM. But it would sure boost their performance if they did. As it stands, if a monk wants to push or shove (prone) like topple or push WM they have to give up unarmed damage. Yet other classes with WM do this and more while still doing damage. That’s why I’ve stated in several threads it would have been a nice class (or subclass) feature if monks got to choose two of the three Unarmed Strikes options. Still wouldn’t have all the versatility of WM, but at least they could shove and grapple or damage and grapple or damage and shove/push.
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
I respect your opinion. But the very first line of the Monk description says they do have have *mastery* of all fighting styles that use Unarmed Strikes _and_ Monk weapons.
*Martial Arts* is a type of weapon mastery that includes really good Unarmed Strikes... on top of the Monk weapon masteries.
I get it that some people like to imagine a "fists only" Monk. Cool. But that's in their head, not in the book. Monks train for years to gain mastery with their "Monk weapons"
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
I respect your opinion. But the very first line of the Monk description says they do have have *mastery* of all fighting styles that use Unarmed Strikes _and_ Monk weapons.
*Martial Arts* is a type of weapon mastery that includes really good Unarmed Strikes... on top of the Monk weapon masteries.
I get it that some people like to imagine a "fists only" Monk. Cool. But that's in their head, not in the book. Monks train for years to gain mastery with their "Monk weapons"
So this is a flavor thing and not a mechanics thing? You feel like the mechanic should be on the class because of the flavor description of the class? Because I was approaching it from a mechanical and class balance standpoint.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
I respect your opinion. But the very first line of the Monk description says they do have have *mastery* of all fighting styles that use Unarmed Strikes _and_ Monk weapons.
*Martial Arts* is a type of weapon mastery that includes really good Unarmed Strikes... on top of the Monk weapon masteries.
I get it that some people like to imagine a "fists only" Monk. Cool. But that's in their head, not in the book. Monks train for years to gain mastery with their "Monk weapons"
Yes, monks have “mastery” of monk weapons (proficiency) but monks do not have the Weapon Mastery feature that would allow them to use a weapon’s Weapon Mastery property in the 2024 PHB.
Edit: or are you saying that fighters who have the most weapon masteries, according to JC in the UA and Fighter videos, starts with 3 and maxes out at 6. But monks somehow have weapon masteries of 12 different weapons?
With nick you move your bonus action into the attack action phase and still have a bonus action but it isn't an extra attack. It frees up you bonus for things like applying or moving hungets mark, slathering poison on a weapon, having a beast/pet attack etc... but you can't use that bonus as an attack.
Beast in 2024 can use one of the Rangers Attack actions as a Beat's Strike(Run 20 feet, get an extra d6 damage and knock the opponant prone) or they can use a standard attack as a bonus action per RAW and per Crawford on the video. Dungeon Dudes also talk about it. So nick doesnt give an extra attack just allows your off hand attack to be taken in the attack action and have a bonus available for something else. Basically frees up your bonus action.
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
I respect your opinion. But the very first line of the Monk description says they do have have *mastery* of all fighting styles that use Unarmed Strikes _and_ Monk weapons.
*Martial Arts* is a type of weapon mastery that includes really good Unarmed Strikes... on top of the Monk weapon masteries.
I get it that some people like to imagine a "fists only" Monk. Cool. But that's in their head, not in the book. Monks train for years to gain mastery with their "Monk weapons"
Yes, monks have “mastery” of monk weapons (proficiency) but monks do not have the Weapon Mastery feature that would allow them to use a weapon’s Weapon Mastery property in the 2024 PHB.
Edit: or are you saying that fighters who have the most weapon masteries, according to JC in the UA and Fighter videos, starts with 3 and maxes out at 6. But monks somehow have weapon masteries of 12 different weapons?
Well, one can just take the words to mean what they say.
The primary feature of a Monk is Martial Arts and that first sentence is not flavour text - it defines "Monk weapons" (all simple + martial with the Light property).
And it says that the Monk has "mastery" over ALL fighting styles using Unarmed Strikes and Monk weapons.
To compare: Anyone can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check. But if you are poficient, you add your PB. If you have expertise, you add your PB twice.
Anyone can wield a dagger. With weapon proficiency, you add your PB, with mastery you add PB... and benefit from the nick property
The PHB 2024 uses expertise and mastery in a very clear way. They are both a step above proficiency and provde enhanced mechanics.
If the text meant that the Monk was proficient in Monk weapons it would have said that. It says mastery.
And this makes sense for a Monk who spends most of their life in training, learning the *martial* arts with simple, and some *martial* (Light) weapons. They are masters of the martial arts. Unarmoured, but not unarmed.
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
I respect your opinion. But the very first line of the Monk description says they do have have *mastery* of all fighting styles that use Unarmed Strikes _and_ Monk weapons.
*Martial Arts* is a type of weapon mastery that includes really good Unarmed Strikes... on top of the Monk weapon masteries.
I get it that some people like to imagine a "fists only" Monk. Cool. But that's in their head, not in the book. Monks train for years to gain mastery with their "Monk weapons"
Yes, monks have “mastery” of monk weapons (proficiency) but monks do not have the Weapon Mastery feature that would allow them to use a weapon’s Weapon Mastery property in the 2024 PHB.
Edit: or are you saying that fighters who have the most weapon masteries, according to JC in the UA and Fighter videos, starts with 3 and maxes out at 6. But monks somehow have weapon masteries of 12 different weapons?
Well, one can just take the words to mean what they say.
The primary feature of a Monk is Martial Arts and that first sentence is not flavour text - it defines "Monk weapons" (all simple + martial with the Light property).
And it says that the Monk has "mastery" over ALL fighting styles using Unarmed Strikes and Monk weapons.
To compare: Anyone can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check. But if you are poficient, you add your PB. If you have expertise, you add your PB twice.
Anyone can wield a dagger. With weapon proficiency, you add your PB, with mastery you add PB... and benefit from the nick property
The PHB 2024 uses expertise and mastery in a very clear way. They are both a step above proficiency and provde enhanced mechanics.
If the text meant that the Monk was proficient in Monk weapons it would have said that. It says mastery.
And this makes sense for a Monk who spends most of their life in training, learning the *martial* arts with simple, and some *martial* (Light) weapons. They are masters of the martial arts. Unarmoured, but not unarmed.
I’m sorry but you are incorrect. There is a specific game feature called Weapon Mastery. It is spelled out in the PHB:
Mastery. Each weapon has a mastery property, which is defined in the “Mastery Properties” section later in this chapter. To use that property, you must have a feature that lets you use it.
Nowhere on the monk table or under their features is there a class feature. Let’s look at the Rogue:
Level 1: Weapon Mastery
Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of two kinds of weapons of your choice with which you have proficiency, such as Daggers and Shortbows.
Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the mastery properties of Scimitars and Shortswords.
This class has weapon mastery, Fighters, Rangers, Paladins all have similar in both the class description and the class table. And it is a completely separate feature description and not buried inside another class feature.
Monks do not. So they can’t use a weapons Mastery property despite what the fluff description for Martial arts says.
Are you also claiming that monks know every single fighting style for the same reason?
Wizards of the Coast: "OK, we'll make monks stronger. We'll improve Unarmed Strikes and introduce weapon mastery and we'll make sure that your foundational class feature lets you use both with mastery."
"Level 1 Feature: Martial Arts - Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following" (etc)
Some Confused Monks: "Wait... What? NO! That's too good! I just wanted to punch things more. How can my martial arts, which gives me mastery of combat styles, let me use martial weapons with mastery? Don't you get it? Monks are supposed to suck!"
Wizards of the Coast: "OK, we'll make monks stronger. We'll improve Unarmed Strikes and introduce weapon mastery and we'll make sure that your foundational class feature lets you use both with mastery."
"Level 1 Feature: Martial Arts - Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following" (etc)
Some Confused Monks: "Wait... What? NO! That's too good! I just wanted to punch things more. How can my martial arts, which gives me mastery of combat styles, let me use martial weapons with mastery? Don't you get it? Monks are supposed to suck!"
You are misreading the text, as others have explained, by attempting to conflate the English word "mastery" with the game mechanic Weapon Mastery. It's capitalized when used in the text to attempt to prevent people from doing that.
Every class that has the Weapon Mastery feature (which was explicity removed from the Monk Class with Playtest 8) lists it in their Class Features section.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
martial focused typically use Weapon Mastery at-will
Monks focus on martial arts more than either as a replacement style
Picking up Nick is useful for a Monk because they have Unarmed Attack as a Bonus Action option outside of the Attack Action and can sneak an extra attack in that way. It's possible to add this via a feat, multi-classing, or with the Bastion rules.
I don't think Monks were missing Weapon Mastery as an oversight. I think it was deliberate and doesn't seem like an issue to me.
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I didn’t know this standard thing is an issue. Sounds like I have to be careful when it becomes too pvp and it’s not coop anymore. When it becomes far removed from actual gameplay in the present moment reality. In a realm of analysis that confuses the player like myself and trying to destroy DnD.
I love the new app, I can teach the combat system over a few days, as I am a good teacher.
I’m still not sure what you mean by this or the comment on smelling too much like Evoker. Evasion has been part of Rogues and Monks since 2014. I mean, I can understand if there is an issue concerning believability about rogues and monks dodging a fireball, but it isn’t really too different than about other class making the save to take/dodging half the damage.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I played a monk with an evoker that later became my dungeon master, he was DMing Dungeon of the mad mage, sometimes a person would come in and play an evoker and of course I was playing a Monk. The Evoker was young and didn't have a cantrip so I suggested firebolt to help, but I didn't know the DM already had experience with this Person, so I didn't know the social dynamics(like I could analyze it anyways). He was aggressive and I was evasive in our social communication. Anyways after the evoker stopped playing, the elder DM said "Evoker" with an inflection like it was trivial D and D and disdain for the trope. Then at the end of the campaign he said "evasion" with the same inflection in his voice. Anyways that's as best as I can explain it. It's one of those things where you almost have to be there in context to understand what he was getting at.
I love the new app, I can teach the combat system over a few days, as I am a good teacher.
Though I’m not into monte hall, I’m a power player since high school, the problem was I played a ranger, and monks, and a cleric. In 3.5 I mainly did flurry of blows and stunning strikes looking forward to dimension door. Alignment is now a thing in ph and the dmg, I can’t be monte hall anymore because attunement to 3 magic items. Always have a bag of holding. Let’s face it the 5e Player’s Handbook monk sucked. I was in need of the durable feat and mobile feats many times and still will be. I try to stay lawful neutral and stick to my personal code of impartiality like Gygax suggested DM’s be. In DnD now they tell me what happens at 0 hp depending upon alignment I depart to one of the outer planes, still making death saves. Many monks try and stay lawful neutral.
I love the new app, I can teach the combat system over a few days, as I am a good teacher.
Level 1 - "Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following:
Simple Melee Weapons
Martial Melee Weapons that have the Light property"
The monk does have *mastery* of those Monk weapons. Pretty clear.
They do not have Weapon Mastery, the new game mechanic.
I honestly don't think 5ER Monks need Weapon Mastery. I think they're in a pretty good spot.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I agree monks are in a pretty good spot. And I don’t think they “need” WM. But it would sure boost their performance if they did. As it stands, if a monk wants to push or shove (prone) like topple or push WM they have to give up unarmed damage. Yet other classes with WM do this and more while still doing damage. That’s why I’ve stated in several threads it would have been a nice class (or subclass) feature if monks got to choose two of the three Unarmed Strikes options. Still wouldn’t have all the versatility of WM, but at least they could shove and grapple or damage and grapple or damage and shove/push.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Ooh, Bastions can grant Weapon Mastery! The Training Area special facility, to be specific.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I respect your opinion. But the very first line of the Monk description says they do have have *mastery* of all fighting styles that use Unarmed Strikes _and_ Monk weapons.
*Martial Arts* is a type of weapon mastery that includes really good Unarmed Strikes... on top of the Monk weapon masteries.
I get it that some people like to imagine a "fists only" Monk. Cool. But that's in their head, not in the book. Monks train for years to gain mastery with their "Monk weapons"
So this is a flavor thing and not a mechanics thing? You feel like the mechanic should be on the class because of the flavor description of the class? Because I was approaching it from a mechanical and class balance standpoint.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yes, monks have “mastery” of monk weapons (proficiency) but monks do not have the Weapon Mastery feature that would allow them to use a weapon’s Weapon Mastery property in the 2024 PHB.
Edit: or are you saying that fighters who have the most weapon masteries, according to JC in the UA and Fighter videos, starts with 3 and maxes out at 6. But monks somehow have weapon masteries of 12 different weapons?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
With nick you move your bonus action into the attack action phase and still have a bonus action but it isn't an extra attack. It frees up you bonus for things like applying or moving hungets mark, slathering poison on a weapon, having a beast/pet attack etc... but you can't use that bonus as an attack.
Who makes you use your attack action when your pet/controlled monster attacks someone?
Beast in 2024 can use one of the Rangers Attack actions as a Beat's Strike(Run 20 feet, get an extra d6 damage and knock the opponant prone) or they can use a standard attack as a bonus action per RAW and per Crawford on the video. Dungeon Dudes also talk about it. So nick doesnt give an extra attack just allows your off hand attack to be taken in the attack action and have a bonus available for something else. Basically frees up your bonus action.
Well, one can just take the words to mean what they say.
The primary feature of a Monk is Martial Arts and that first sentence is not flavour text - it defines "Monk weapons" (all simple + martial with the Light property).
And it says that the Monk has "mastery" over ALL fighting styles using Unarmed Strikes and Monk weapons.
To compare: Anyone can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check. But if you are poficient, you add your PB. If you have expertise, you add your PB twice.
Anyone can wield a dagger. With weapon proficiency, you add your PB, with mastery you add PB... and benefit from the nick property
The PHB 2024 uses expertise and mastery in a very clear way. They are both a step above proficiency and provde enhanced mechanics.
If the text meant that the Monk was proficient in Monk weapons it would have said that. It says mastery.
And this makes sense for a Monk who spends most of their life in training, learning the *martial* arts with simple, and some *martial* (Light) weapons. They are masters of the martial arts. Unarmoured, but not unarmed.
I’m sorry but you are incorrect. There is a specific game feature called Weapon Mastery. It is spelled out in the PHB:
Nowhere on the monk table or under their features is there a class feature. Let’s look at the Rogue:
This class has weapon mastery, Fighters, Rangers, Paladins all have similar in both the class description and the class table. And it is a completely separate feature description and not buried inside another class feature.
Monks do not. So they can’t use a weapons Mastery property despite what the fluff description for Martial arts says.
Are you also claiming that monks know every single fighting style for the same reason?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
This thread is hilarious.
Monks from 2014 to 2024 - "Monks suck!"
Wizards of the Coast: "OK, we'll make monks stronger. We'll improve Unarmed Strikes and introduce weapon mastery and we'll make sure that your foundational class feature lets you use both with mastery."
"Level 1 Feature: Martial Arts - Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following" (etc)
Some Confused Monks: "Wait... What? NO! That's too good! I just wanted to punch things more. How can my martial arts, which gives me mastery of combat styles, let me use martial weapons with mastery? Don't you get it? Monks are supposed to suck!"
You are misreading the text, as others have explained, by attempting to conflate the English word "mastery" with the game mechanic Weapon Mastery. It's capitalized when used in the text to attempt to prevent people from doing that.
Every class that has the Weapon Mastery feature (which was explicity removed from the Monk Class with Playtest 8) lists it in their Class Features section.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
It seems straight-forward enough to me.
Picking up Nick is useful for a Monk because they have Unarmed Attack as a Bonus Action option outside of the Attack Action and can sneak an extra attack in that way. It's possible to add this via a feat, multi-classing, or with the Bastion rules.
I don't think Monks were missing Weapon Mastery as an oversight. I think it was deliberate and doesn't seem like an issue to me.