Wizards of the Coast: "OK, we'll make monks stronger. We'll improve Unarmed Strikes and introduce weapon mastery and we'll make sure that your foundational class feature lets you use both with mastery."
"Level 1 Feature: Martial Arts - Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following" (etc)
Some Confused Monks: "Wait... What? NO! That's too good! I just wanted to punch things more. How can my martial arts, which gives me mastery of combat styles, let me use martial weapons with mastery? Don't you get it? Monks are supposed to suck!"
Their “mastery” is reflected in unarmed strikes starting at d6 and going up to d12, where no other class or species can do this. And same for Monk Weapons where a dagger, in the hands of a monk, can do as much damage as a greataxe in a barbarians hands.
And as notovny mentioned, in 2024 WotC has specifically capitalized game mechanics to distinguish them from just plain descriptive text. And they call out game mechanics separately, like I mentioned above with Rogue’s Weapon Mastery. Same for Wizards Ritual casting via their spellbook. In 2014 it was buried in the spellcasting feature. But now it is its own separate item for clarification’s sake.
Beast in 2024 can use one of the Rangers Attack actions as a Beat's Strike(Run 20 feet, get an extra d6 damage and knock the opponant prone) or they can use a standard attack as a bonus action per RAW and per Crawford on the video. Dungeon Dudes also talk about it. So nick doesnt give an extra attack just allows your off hand attack to be taken in the attack action and have a bonus available for something else. Basically frees up your bonus action.
Oh okay. You didn't infer you were talking about the Ranger's Beastmaster ability, so I thought you were talking in general about any control of beast/pets (magical control etc.).
Wizards of the Coast: "OK, we'll make monks stronger. We'll improve Unarmed Strikes and introduce weapon mastery and we'll make sure that your foundational class feature lets you use both with mastery."
"Level 1 Feature: Martial Arts - Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following" (etc)
Some Confused Monks: "Wait... What? NO! That's too good! I just wanted to punch things more. How can my martial arts, which gives me mastery of combat styles, let me use martial weapons with mastery? Don't you get it? Monks are supposed to suck!"
Their “mastery” is reflected in unarmed strikes starting at d6 and going up to d12, where no other class or species can do this. And same for Monk Weapons where a dagger, in the hands of a monk, can do as much damage as a greataxe in a barbarians hands.
And as notovny mentioned, in 2024 WotC has specifically capitalized game mechanics to distinguish them from just plain descriptive text. And they call out game mechanics separately, like I mentioned above with Rogue’s Weapon Mastery. Same for Wizards Ritual casting via their spellbook. In 2014 it was buried in the spellcasting feature. But now it is its own separate item for clarification’s sake.
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
Thief Rogues can also do this with their BA Utilize, though not as well since Grapple is Str based for them. I'm thinking it's probably more Net + Chain for Thief Rogues.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
Thief Rogues can also do this with their BA Utilize, though not as well since Grapple is Str based for them. I'm thinking it's probably more Net + Chain for Thief Rogues.
Thief rogues are a subclass - and this is one of their selling points. All monks can do it baseline. Just goes to show how good the monk class is.
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
I suspect, though obviously cannot prove, that this was an oversight added to the rules by accident. My reasoning for believing it is because it encourages a specific combat style.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I believe it was 100% intentonal buff to unarmed fighting. Why would they let you substitute and unarmed attack for a push or grapple otherwise?!
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
I suspect, though obviously cannot prove, that this was an oversight added to the rules by accident. My reasoning for believing it is because it encourages a specific combat style.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I believe it was 100% intentonal buff to unarmed fighting. Why would they let you substitute and unarmed attack for a push or grapple otherwise?!
I agree. I think the changes to unarmed fighting were a deliberate upgrade to the tactical choices characters have in melee combat.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
I suspect, though obviously cannot prove, that this was an oversight added to the rules by accident. My reasoning for believing it is because it encourages a specific combat style.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I believe it was 100% intentonal buff to unarmed fighting. Why would they let you substitute and unarmed attack for a push or grapple otherwise?!
I disagree. I think it was an intentional buff to unarmed strikes, (grapple or shove) but unintentional that you can use the chain as the utilize action and how it interacts with monk’s BA unarmed strike or FoB. Like other things (Treantmonk’s latest video on Conjure Woodland Beings, or Conjure Minor Elementals spell) that seem to have fallen through the cracks in the update.
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
I suspect, though obviously cannot prove, that this was an oversight added to the rules by accident. My reasoning for believing it is because it encourages a specific combat style.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I believe it was 100% intentonal buff to unarmed fighting. Why would they let you substitute and unarmed attack for a push or grapple otherwise?!
I disagree. I think it was an intentional buff to unarmed strikes, (grapple or shove) but unintentional that you can use the chain as the utilize action and how it interacts with monk’s BA unarmed strike or FoB. Like other things (Treantmonk’s latest video on Conjure Woodland Beings, or Conjure Minor Elementals spell) that seem to have fallen through the cracks in the update.
Specifically the chain exploit was what I was referring to.
I get it, I just don’t think it was intentional. I think they designed the chain with no thought to how it would interact with anything
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
I suspect, though obviously cannot prove, that this was an oversight added to the rules by accident. My reasoning for believing it is because it encourages a specific combat style.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I believe it was 100% intentonal buff to unarmed fighting. Why would they let you substitute and unarmed attack for a push or grapple otherwise?!
I disagree. I think it was an intentional buff to unarmed strikes, (grapple or shove) but unintentional that you can use the chain as the utilize action and how it interacts with monk’s BA unarmed strike or FoB. Like other things (Treantmonk’s latest video on Conjure Woodland Beings, or Conjure Minor Elementals spell) that seem to have fallen through the cracks in the update.
Specifically the chain exploit was what I was referring to.
I get it, I just don’t think it was intentional. I think they designed the chain with no thought to how it would interact with anything
Which would make this exploit accidental, like I said.
Start at 1 Fighter, then monk until you want to go back to Fighter. Or start at 1 monk and dip into fighter whenever you want the mastery. With Monks now being proficient with scimitars at lvl 1... I'm picturing a build that eventually tosses a dagger(nick) to open the round, swings with a scimitar(nick) still has a bonus action(class or species based) and smacks for a FOB to end it off. That rewording of the Light property with Nick is a doozy of a mechanic. Theoretically has four attacks at lvl 3...I'm good with that.
If you can get access to one of items that buffs or sets your strength score barbarian seems pretty good for multiclass (Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon). They have combinations like Rage and Deflect Attacks or Danger Sense and Evasion. Since you can use strength with your martial arts die you can get Rage Damage and Reckless Attack. Fast Movement makes going 5 or even 6 levels in barbarian faster than going just monk. All the level 3 subclass abilities seem decent. You might be able to justify going higher than 5 but I think things get more complicated at that point. Also weapon mastery like most other good multiclasses.
Hopefully Kensei gets it when they redo it . a fighting style and weapon mastery and perhaps deft strike for free if they arent gonna add modifier to it. flurry with weapon or thye could add weapon stances that might be cool.
Warrior of the Open Hand gets a (sort of) weapon mastery with unarmed strike: remove opponent's Opportunity Attacks (no save), Push 15 feat (save), or knock Prone (save). But it has a precious resource cost, as it can only be done with Flurry of Blows (1 Focus Point). But it is a piggybacking on FoB, so if you were going to Flurry of Blows anyway, it's a nice little rider.
Also, by 2024 rules you can do your bonus action unarmed strikes first. So, "I flurry of blows" and on the first attack attempt to knock them prove. If you succeed, the rest of your attacks are with advantage.
If Monks 2024 don't get any Weapon Mastery as default, then devs should have rolled most of the early WoOpen Hand stuff into the base Monk. Feats are expensive for Monks because their MAD stat spread hasn't changed. It's good that they can pick Tavern Brawler as a free feat, I agree. However, making Monks take another feat just to get a bit of control ability is a bad trade. Being able to Grapple easier is only better if you have the high AC to tank the damage of having your foe next to you. That's until you get to run up walls and drop them for fall damage at... level 9, so most of your way through your campaign career. And that's assuming your DM won't penaiize your ability to run up walls while holding another creature due to Encumbrance b/c, chances, are you will still have a STR score below 12.
If Monks 2024 don't get any Weapon Mastery as default, then devs should have rolled most of the early WoOpen Hand stuff into the base Monk. Feats are expensive for Monks because their MAD stat spread hasn't changed. It's good that they can pick Tavern Brawler as a free feat, I agree. However, making Monks take another feat just to get a bit of control ability is a bad trade. Being able to Grapple easier is only better if you have the high AC to tank the damage of having your foe next to you.
If those were base class features what would open hand haveAssuming you use standard array for 14 or 15 dex/wisdom and use the sailor background to increase wisdom and dex to have a score of 16 or +3 modifier in both. Grappler only means you lose one point compared to an ASI as you get to add 1 point to dex. You can start with an ac of 16 if you buff both main stats immediately. You are also the only class who can dodge and attack in the same round, at least early on.
That's until you get to run up walls and drop them for fall damage at... level 9, so most of your way through your campaign career. And that's assuming your DM won't penaiize your ability to run up walls while holding another creature due to Encumbrance b/c, chances, are you will still have a STR score below 12.
Can't buffs give you temporary flight before that also grappling rules are seemingly separate from encombrance rules being based on size rather than weight.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
True they have lower hit points, but not that much lower. It's only 2 Hit Die points less than the Fighter, Paladin and Ranger. Aside from getting more attacks per round, the Monks' Defense features more than make up for with such things as Patient Defense, Step Of the Wind, Deflect, Evasion, Movement speed, Removing Charmed, Frightened or Poisoned condition effects, Proficiency in ALL saving throws and to reroll a failed save etc.
Folks look too much into offense and perceived frailty due to Hit Points, but miss the bigger picture that makes Monk's hard to kill.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
They can knock enemies prone and push them with their unarmed attacks at level 2. And they’re among the best grapplers in the game. There’s three control options. At level 10 step of the wind, they can ferry allies around the battlefield. And there is still stun, which needed a nerf, and even after it is still strong, and now still gives benefits if the enemy saves. And that’s just the base class. Open hand can do some of them even a tiny bit better. Shadow can throw around darkness. I’m not sure how you can say they don’t have control options.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials. They are also Not strictly better grapplers even compared to the Valor or CoSwords Bard, since they lack Expertise. Not to mention the Rune Knight, which also has probably abt equivalent AC until the Monk capstone but has better hp progression and automatic Con proficiency (if you want to multi-class with any spellcaster). You mention knock Prone, but none of the Origin feats allow you to knock someone prone. Monks are already starved for ASIs due to the retention of their characteristic MADness. Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials.
Not much lower. 1 per level base. (But, I admit, probably lower con.) Also, they have free BA disengage and high movement, so they can grapple somebody, relocate them, and hen leave.
They are also Not strictly better grapplers even compared to the Valor or CoSwords Bard, since they lack Expertise.
Expertise has literally zero relevance to how well you can grapple.
You mention knock Prone, but none of the Origin feats allow you to knock someone prone.
Open hand monks get it as an inherent ability.
Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
It's decent, and I say this as somebody who's played a monk across the edition transition. But monks are the utility infielder of melee -- they can do pretty much anything competently, but they're not as good at any one thing as the specialists. They can control the battlefield, particularly if they're elements or open hand. They can fight front line, they can go after a specific target. Etc. And weapon mastery really wouldn't make them much better at any of these roles.
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Their “mastery” is reflected in unarmed strikes starting at d6 and going up to d12, where no other class or species can do this. And same for Monk Weapons where a dagger, in the hands of a monk, can do as much damage as a greataxe in a barbarians hands.
And as notovny mentioned, in 2024 WotC has specifically capitalized game mechanics to distinguish them from just plain descriptive text. And they call out game mechanics separately, like I mentioned above with Rogue’s Weapon Mastery. Same for Wizards Ritual casting via their spellbook. In 2014 it was buried in the spellcasting feature. But now it is its own separate item for clarification’s sake.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Oh okay. You didn't infer you were talking about the Ranger's Beastmaster ability, so I thought you were talking in general about any control of beast/pets (magical control etc.).
You forgot one major thing that distinguishes them from other martials - they are the only class that can do a grapple and utilize chain on the same turn. Utilize chain is a mini Hold monster. Removing the condition is really, really hard 18 acrobatics or 20 Athletics.
While you succeed on a 13 Athletics check if you want to bind the creature.
Thief Rogues can also do this with their BA Utilize, though not as well since Grapple is Str based for them. I'm thinking it's probably more Net + Chain for Thief Rogues.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Thief rogues are a subclass - and this is one of their selling points. All monks can do it baseline. Just goes to show how good the monk class is.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I believe it was 100% intentonal buff to unarmed fighting. Why would they let you substitute and unarmed attack for a push or grapple otherwise?!
I agree. I think the changes to unarmed fighting were a deliberate upgrade to the tactical choices characters have in melee combat.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I disagree. I think it was an intentional buff to unarmed strikes, (grapple or shove) but unintentional that you can use the chain as the utilize action and how it interacts with monk’s BA unarmed strike or FoB. Like other things (Treantmonk’s latest video on Conjure Woodland Beings, or Conjure Minor Elementals spell) that seem to have fallen through the cracks in the update.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I get it, I just don’t think it was intentional. I think they designed the chain with no thought to how it would interact with anything
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Sorry l, I got your and Petro’s posts mixed up
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Start at 1 Fighter, then monk until you want to go back to Fighter. Or start at 1 monk and dip into fighter whenever you want the mastery. With Monks now being proficient with scimitars at lvl 1... I'm picturing a build that eventually tosses a dagger(nick) to open the round, swings with a scimitar(nick) still has a bonus action(class or species based) and smacks for a FOB to end it off. That rewording of the Light property with Nick is a doozy of a mechanic. Theoretically has four attacks at lvl 3...I'm good with that.
If you can get access to one of items that buffs or sets your strength score barbarian seems pretty good for multiclass (Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon). They have combinations like Rage and Deflect Attacks or Danger Sense and Evasion. Since you can use strength with your martial arts die you can get Rage Damage and Reckless Attack. Fast Movement makes going 5 or even 6 levels in barbarian faster than going just monk. All the level 3 subclass abilities seem decent. You might be able to justify going higher than 5 but I think things get more complicated at that point. Also weapon mastery like most other good multiclasses.
Hopefully Kensei gets it when they redo it . a fighting style and weapon mastery and perhaps deft strike for free if they arent gonna add modifier to it. flurry with weapon or thye could add weapon stances that might be cool.
If Monks 2024 don't get any Weapon Mastery as default, then devs should have rolled most of the early WoOpen Hand stuff into the base Monk. Feats are expensive for Monks because their MAD stat spread hasn't changed. It's good that they can pick Tavern Brawler as a free feat, I agree. However, making Monks take another feat just to get a bit of control ability is a bad trade. Being able to Grapple easier is only better if you have the high AC to tank the damage of having your foe next to you. That's until you get to run up walls and drop them for fall damage at... level 9, so most of your way through your campaign career. And that's assuming your DM won't penaiize your ability to run up walls while holding another creature due to Encumbrance b/c, chances, are you will still have a STR score below 12.
If those were base class features what would open hand haveAssuming you use standard array for 14 or 15 dex/wisdom and use the sailor background to increase wisdom and dex to have a score of 16 or +3 modifier in both. Grappler only means you lose one point compared to an ASI as you get to add 1 point to dex. You can start with an ac of 16 if you buff both main stats immediately. You are also the only class who can dodge and attack in the same round, at least early on.
Can't buffs give you temporary flight before that also grappling rules are seemingly separate from encombrance rules being based on size rather than weight.
Open Hand Monks are pretty boring as is. A Monk playstyle should include some control abilities, esp. since they A) have lower hit points than most melee classes, B) are MAD stat-wise, and C) they don't get any weapon masteries. Stun is now significantly weaker in 2024. So the default Monk base class should have a few control abilties to compensate.
True they have lower hit points, but not that much lower. It's only 2 Hit Die points less than the Fighter, Paladin and Ranger. Aside from getting more attacks per round, the Monks' Defense features more than make up for with such things as Patient Defense, Step Of the Wind, Deflect, Evasion, Movement speed, Removing Charmed, Frightened or Poisoned condition effects, Proficiency in ALL saving throws and to reroll a failed save etc.
Folks look too much into offense and perceived frailty due to Hit Points, but miss the bigger picture that makes Monk's hard to kill.
They can knock enemies prone and push them with their unarmed attacks at level 2. And they’re among the best grapplers in the game. There’s three control options. At level 10 step of the wind, they can ferry allies around the battlefield. And there is still stun, which needed a nerf, and even after it is still strong, and now still gives benefits if the enemy saves. And that’s just the base class. Open hand can do some of them even a tiny bit better. Shadow can throw around darkness.
I’m not sure how you can say they don’t have control options.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials. They are also Not strictly better grapplers even compared to the Valor or CoSwords Bard, since they lack Expertise. Not to mention the Rune Knight, which also has probably abt equivalent AC until the Monk capstone but has better hp progression and automatic Con proficiency (if you want to multi-class with any spellcaster). You mention knock Prone, but none of the Origin feats allow you to knock someone prone. Monks are already starved for ASIs due to the retention of their characteristic MADness. Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
Not much lower. 1 per level base. (But, I admit, probably lower con.) Also, they have free BA disengage and high movement, so they can grapple somebody, relocate them, and hen leave.
Expertise has literally zero relevance to how well you can grapple.
Open hand monks get it as an inherent ability.
It's decent, and I say this as somebody who's played a monk across the edition transition. But monks are the utility infielder of melee -- they can do pretty much anything competently, but they're not as good at any one thing as the specialists. They can control the battlefield, particularly if they're elements or open hand. They can fight front line, they can go after a specific target. Etc. And weapon mastery really wouldn't make them much better at any of these roles.