Okay, but that is literally the most vanilla flavor of Monk. You shouldn't have to be stuck playing only that one subclass to be able to have several control options when half-casters like Ranger and Paladin get two per turn starting level 5 just with resource-free Weapon Mastery uses. My point is that ALL Monks should be capable at more than basic grapple (which is sort of dangerous without multi-classing) and without being forced to play Open Hand Monk when EVERY single martial gets options for control via Weapon Mastery EXCEPT Monks.
The problem is that grappling most enemies at higher levels (when multi-attack is common) is dangerous for a Monk since they have lower hp than other melee martials.
Not much lower. 1 per level base. (But, I admit, probably lower con.) Also, they have free BA disengage and high movement, so they can grapple somebody, relocate them, and hen leave.
Relocating means moving them, which means seriously limiting your own movement that round, which can be dangerous a lot of the time (again, Multi-attack) unless you have a convenient cliff nearby or smthing like a Web or Evard's Black Tentacles area to put the enemy into. IOW, it's either risky or situational. Ideally, being a grappler means you should be able to grapple someone and survive the grapple for more than one round.
Is it improved from 2014 Monk, yes. Is the base Monk now a good controller on the battlefield? No.
It's decent, and I say this as somebody who's played a monk across the edition transition. But monks are the utility infielder of melee -- they can do pretty much anything competently, but they're not as good at any one thing as the specialists. They can control the battlefield, particularly if they're elements or open hand. They can fight front line, they can go after a specific target. Etc. And weapon mastery really wouldn't make them much better at any of these roles.
Control should be part of the default Monk's bread and butter. Think about it: a human hand is very flexible part of the body in that it can hold, punch, push, apply light pressure, apply heavy pressure (if you know pain points on the body you are pressing), cup something, write (using a tool), paint (fingers), and more. In comparison, a dagger can only puncture, and a club can only *Thwack.*
Actually, I would care far less about the upscaled damage die as long as all Monks had access to the suite of abilities that Open Hand Monk gets at level 3. The 2024 Monk went in the direction of damage optimization (which I guess satisfies the power gamers) but didn't do much in terms of battlefield control...that is unless you want to take substatial risk to your not-great hit points. One hand punching (even from a boxer or kung fu master) should generally not do as much damage as a long sword held in both hands. But it should be more capable at doing a variety of manipulation-type abilities in combat since the root of the word "manipulate" relates to the Latin word for hand: 'manus'.
Knocking prone is part of shove under unarmed attacks. No feat required.
But I think to really discuss this, can you define “control” because, again, pushing, grappling, stunning and knocking prone seems like a pretty solid mix of control options. And only 1 of those requires a limited resource.
And keep in mind the change to unarmed attacks and bonus actions. You no longer need to take the attack action to qualify for BA unarmed strikes. So while you grapple someone, take the dodge action, and punch them (and still flurry if you like) with your BA. And if they hit anyway, you still get deflect attack for one of those.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
Review the part under shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.
Anyone can try and knock someone prone with an unarmed strike.
Several of those creatures you listed are huge, and no one is going to grapple them, save a rune knight or giants barbarian. But that aside, of course it won’t always work, but you seem to be arguing that it’s bad because it won’t be the best choice every time. Nothing works against every enemy. Nor should it.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
Review the part under shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.
Anyone can try and knock someone prone with an unarmed strike.
Several of those creatures you listed are huge, and no one is going to grapple them, save a rune knight or giants barbarian. But that aside, of course it won’t always work, but you seem to be arguing that it’s bad because it won’t be the best choice every time. Nothing works against every enemy. Nor should it.
Yes, not every tactic works with every enemy. This is precisely why having a range of options for control is best. This is why saying "grapple with d8 hit dice" and "stunning strike" (only once per turn) are "good enough" for Monks is not really satisfying. Yes, the basic Monk can technically shove, but they are no more likely to succeed than any other martial class. And because their main damage output is based on their # of attacks, shoving without dealing damage is of limited use to them unless they somehow get advantage or a bonus on that shove attack.
There are plenty of Medium and Large sized enemies with multi-attack at or above CR 5. Nalfeshnee=Large. Vrock=Large. Erinyes=Medium. Chain Devil=Medium, Ice Devil=Large. Young Adult Green/Black/Red Dragon = Large. Flesh/Clay/Stone Golem=Large. Otyugh=Large. Chimera=Large. Green/Red/Blue Slaad=Large. Xorn=Medium. Troll=Large. More than half of these are between CR 5 and 10. I guess Monks fighting CR 8+ monsters should just avoid grappling then, which leaves you with ... push for no damage and shove with no damage and nerfed Stunning Strike. But Fighter/Ranger/Barb/Paladin get free control abilites with Weapon Mastery. Some of which work using reach or ranged weapons. Oh well, Monk is expected to sacrifice themselves to grapple the Grey Slaad or the Vrock. Goodbye Monk PC. Better hope party members have Revivify or Raise Dead.
They can disengage for free (besides opportunity cost) as a bonus action (or if you attacked with a bonus action with your main action) and with the ability to willingly fail a saving throw you can grapple or push teammates out of danger or simply reposition allies given your generally have one of the higher movement speeds.
Also several subclass abilities help make up for base class even as they cause resources like elemental attunement, physician’s touch, and shadow step.
The Monk usually shouldn't be staying right next to their target at all times.
I think the main problem is the image that some of us have of the monk, and as a reference we have the most symbolic subclass, which is “the way of the open hand.” The open-hand monk is known for being one of the first non-magical subclasses with minimal Battle control using open-hand techniques. These techniques gave the group an advantage and allowed the monk to engage in a type of skirmish combat that was ideal for its low HP. Not to mention “the stunning strike,” the real star that represents the monk's fighting style.
With the arrival of the “Battle Master” fighter subclass, the monk was clearly outclassed in battle control. This subclass was hugely successful, making the game more dynamic and interesting, and I think it partly inspired the development of “weapon mastery.”
It can be said that the monk has lost some of its identity, as classes such as the rogue 2024 also have battle control techniques, and with the introduction of “weapon mastery,” the monk seems a little left out.
Although the monk has been somewhat neglected in this regard, it can be said that the game has evolved and become more dynamic, and we like that. Now they just need to improve the last parts, such as the unarmed combat rule, to make it as interesting as weapon mastery. I know for sure that some will say, "Yes, but the monk has a strong advantage in grappling combat", but to this I reply: "Not everyone wants to grapple, just as not everyone will take the same weapon mastery, even the monk demands a little choice."
In my opinion, there is a way to remedy this by improving the rules of unarmed combat and offering the monk a choice between “Push (10 feet),” “Topple,” or ‘Grab’ as Unarmed mastery, with the only difference being that “Grab” can only be done once per turn (This can add up to the Grappler feat). Obviously, this is combined with damage.
Over time, I think they will find a better and more interesting solution. For now, we can always propose a Homebrew to the group. If it is accepted, great; if not, it means you lack charisma.
Okay, but that is literally the most vanilla flavor of Monk. You shouldn't have to be stuck playing only that one subclass to be able to have several control options when half-casters like Ranger and Paladin get two per turn starting level 5 just with resource-free Weapon Mastery uses. My point is that ALL Monks should be capable at more than basic grapple (which is sort of dangerous without multi-classing) and without being forced to play Open Hand Monk when EVERY single martial gets options for control via Weapon Mastery EXCEPT Monks.
Relocating means moving them, which means seriously limiting your own movement that round, which can be dangerous a lot of the time (again, Multi-attack) unless you have a convenient cliff nearby or smthing like a Web or Evard's Black Tentacles area to put the enemy into. IOW, it's either risky or situational. Ideally, being a grappler means you should be able to grapple someone and survive the grapple for more than one round.
Control should be part of the default Monk's bread and butter. Think about it: a human hand is very flexible part of the body in that it can hold, punch, push, apply light pressure, apply heavy pressure (if you know pain points on the body you are pressing), cup something, write (using a tool), paint (fingers), and more. In comparison, a dagger can only puncture, and a club can only *Thwack.*
Actually, I would care far less about the upscaled damage die as long as all Monks had access to the suite of abilities that Open Hand Monk gets at level 3. The 2024 Monk went in the direction of damage optimization (which I guess satisfies the power gamers) but didn't do much in terms of battlefield control...that is unless you want to take substatial risk to your not-great hit points. One hand punching (even from a boxer or kung fu master) should generally not do as much damage as a long sword held in both hands. But it should be more capable at doing a variety of manipulation-type abilities in combat since the root of the word "manipulate" relates to the Latin word for hand: 'manus'.
Knocking prone is part of shove under unarmed attacks. No feat required.
But I think to really discuss this, can you define “control” because, again, pushing, grappling, stunning and knocking prone seems like a pretty solid mix of control options. And only 1 of those requires a limited resource.
And keep in mind the change to unarmed attacks and bonus actions. You no longer need to take the attack action to qualify for BA unarmed strikes. So while you grapple someone, take the dodge action, and punch them (and still flurry if you like) with your BA. And if they hit anyway, you still get deflect attack for one of those.
Knocking prone is a sub-class feature that only applies for Open Hand Monks.
Pushing is mostly reliable only if you play Open Hand/Elements Monk or take a feat. Again, Monk MAD, so feats are expensive.
I've already said that grappling can be pretty dangerous at higher levels since a lot more enemies get Multi-attack. I guess if you are lucky enough to mostly fight flimsy spellcasters, this is fine. Good luck trying this on a Vrock, Girallon, Chain Devil, Hydra, or Dragon.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/rules-glossary#UnarmedStrike
Review the part under shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.
Anyone can try and knock someone prone with an unarmed strike.
Several of those creatures you listed are huge, and no one is going to grapple them, save a rune knight or giants barbarian. But that aside, of course it won’t always work, but you seem to be arguing that it’s bad because it won’t be the best choice every time. Nothing works against every enemy. Nor should it.
Yes, not every tactic works with every enemy. This is precisely why having a range of options for control is best. This is why saying "grapple with d8 hit dice" and "stunning strike" (only once per turn) are "good enough" for Monks is not really satisfying. Yes, the basic Monk can technically shove, but they are no more likely to succeed than any other martial class. And because their main damage output is based on their # of attacks, shoving without dealing damage is of limited use to them unless they somehow get advantage or a bonus on that shove attack.
There are plenty of Medium and Large sized enemies with multi-attack at or above CR 5. Nalfeshnee=Large. Vrock=Large. Erinyes=Medium. Chain Devil=Medium, Ice Devil=Large. Young Adult Green/Black/Red Dragon = Large. Flesh/Clay/Stone Golem=Large. Otyugh=Large. Chimera=Large. Green/Red/Blue Slaad=Large. Xorn=Medium. Troll=Large. More than half of these are between CR 5 and 10. I guess Monks fighting CR 8+ monsters should just avoid grappling then, which leaves you with ... push for no damage and shove with no damage and nerfed Stunning Strike. But Fighter/Ranger/Barb/Paladin get free control abilites with Weapon Mastery. Some of which work using reach or ranged weapons. Oh well, Monk is expected to sacrifice themselves to grapple the Grey Slaad or the Vrock. Goodbye Monk PC. Better hope party members have Revivify or Raise Dead.
They can disengage for free (besides opportunity cost) as a bonus action (or if you attacked with a bonus action with your main action) and with the ability to willingly fail a saving throw you can grapple or push teammates out of danger or simply reposition allies given your generally have one of the higher movement speeds.
Also several subclass abilities help make up for base class even as they cause resources like elemental attunement, physician’s touch, and shadow step.
The Monk usually shouldn't be staying right next to their target at all times.
I think the main problem is the image that some of us have of the monk, and as a reference we have the most symbolic subclass, which is “the way of the open hand.”
The open-hand monk is known for being one of the first non-magical subclasses with minimal Battle control using open-hand techniques. These techniques gave the group an advantage and allowed the monk to engage in a type of skirmish combat that was ideal for its low HP. Not to mention “the stunning strike,” the real star that represents the monk's fighting style.
With the arrival of the “Battle Master” fighter subclass, the monk was clearly outclassed in battle control. This subclass was hugely successful, making the game more dynamic and interesting, and I think it partly inspired the development of “weapon mastery.”
It can be said that the monk has lost some of its identity, as classes such as the rogue 2024 also have battle control techniques, and with the introduction of “weapon mastery,” the monk seems a little left out.
Although the monk has been somewhat neglected in this regard, it can be said that the game has evolved and become more dynamic, and we like that. Now they just need to improve the last parts, such as the unarmed combat rule, to make it as interesting as weapon mastery. I know for sure that some will say, "Yes, but the monk has a strong advantage in grappling combat", but to this I reply: "Not everyone wants to grapple, just as not everyone will take the same weapon mastery, even the monk demands a little choice."
In my opinion, there is a way to remedy this by improving the rules of unarmed combat and offering the monk a choice between “Push (10 feet),” “Topple,” or ‘Grab’ as Unarmed mastery, with the only difference being that “Grab” can only be done once per turn (This can add up to the Grappler feat). Obviously, this is combined with damage.
Over time, I think they will find a better and more interesting solution. For now, we can always propose a Homebrew to the group. If it is accepted, great; if not, it means you lack charisma.