So what happens when an oath of vengence paladin avenges whatever wrong that caused them to become a vengeance paladin? If they've fulfilled their goal of avenging that wrong, they don't really have any specific reason or target to deal out further vengeance. Or what if whatever they sought vengeance on was already killed before they could do it themselves? Does that make them an oathbreaker because someone beat them to the punch? Maybe they become a redemption paladin because they weren't able to achieve their vengeance oath? I'm not sure what the protocol is for what might happen afterwards in either situation.
Being a vengeance paladin isn't just about exacting your own vengeance. It's about punishing wrongdoers even if it means sacrificing your own righteousness. Even if you had a justice you wanted to carry out, a vengeance paladin's job isn't done when they have completed their goal.
TENETS OF VENGEANCE
The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin, but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are brutally simple.
Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.
No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.
By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.
Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.
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Does that make them an oathbreaker because someone beat them to the punch?
An oath breaker is something a lot more severe than failing in one of the tenets of your oath; it's a paladin on a path towards becoming a death knight.
The general answer to what happens is it's up to you and your DM; if you consider the oath fulfilled, or no longer possible to fulfil, then the obvious answer is to change oaths. Was the character a paladin before they swore their oath of vengeance and had a previous oath they could return to? Do they consider themselves to have failed and instead swear an oath of redemption (with some tweaks)? Did they succeed and swear an oath of glory?
Alternatively, was your target's death the end of the threat? It's equally valid to change the target of your oath of vengeance to someone else, maybe even the person that killed them, maybe someone they worked for, or some evil that corrupted them into becoming your enemy in the first place and so-on.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Keep in mind that the tenets of an oath are not the oath itself. Tenet is defined as "a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy." An oath is a statement of devotion.
Example: The elven god Silvanus has been described as "Silvanus is chiefly concerned with nature itself, specifically wild nature, in both its natural beauty and fierce savagery. Caring very little for maintaining a proper balance with civilization, being wrathful towards those who threaten wild places. He pays no attention to the machinations of mortals or other deities. When it came to nature itself, he cared greatly for maintaining a balance between growth and decay, water and drought, fire and ice — the natural cycle of life. This is considered to be his dogma and he is emotionally distant in regards to its necessity. This leads some to view him as heartless, though in reality he values all life. He had a special hatred for those who used fire carelessly or with deliberate intention to cause destruction." - Forgotten Realms Wiki
So the tenets of a Paladin of Vengeance's oath to Silvanus could be track down and destroy those who despoil wild nature by interrupting the natural balance of Life, either by ending it before its time or extending it unnaturally. Especially if the premature ending of nature was done with fire.
However, the actual oath of a Vengeance Paladin of Silvanus could go as follows:
"Vengeance I shall be; For Thee, Silvanus, for Thee; Power hath descended forth from Thy hand; That my Self may swiftly carry out Thy command; That I strike down threats to the Wild with great vengeance and fury enfiled; And a red river forth I shall flow to Thee; Teeming with despoilers’ souls shall it ever be."
Basically, the paladin is dedicating his life to tracking down and killing all despoilers of Nature, using the tenets that Silvanus set forth as the guidelines for identifying said despoilers. His duty will never end.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
That makes sense and props for the cool rhyming oath by the way. I guess I was thinking about if their oath was taken for something more specific like hunting down and killing someone who murdered their family. Does that mean the oath sworn is intended to be more broad in a general sense of idea? It does say that "The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin. ...these, paladins arise and swear an Oath of Vengeance to set right that which has gone wrong" though. So if it can be something more specific like finding and killing a certain murderer, thief, etc. and they do take their vengence, haven't they made right that which has gone wrong? Maybe they swear a new, more general oath like going after all murderers, thieves, or whatever? Is that the kind of idea you mean?
Yes, the oath is more general. "The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin" is more of a generalization of punishing anyone who chooses to commit grievous sins rather than signing up to right a single specific wrong. Think of paladins as being "on call" to defend against misbehavior. Dealing successfully with a single offender counts as a win for that day but the job of monitoring for, and responding to, evil is never done.
Now a character can decide "I'm done with this!" and choose to switch to another Class (with the DM's blessing, of course) but that may mean that he/she then changes Classes and becomes what's called a Fallen Paladin. Or go truly evil him/herself and become an Oathbreaker (a class completely different from the Fallen Paladin one) and switching to different deity. Whatever is agreed upon by the DM and player.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
For Thee, Silvanus, for Thee; Power hath descended forth from Thy hand; That my Self may swiftly carry out Thy command; That I strike down threats to the Wild with great vengeance and fury enfiled; And a red river forth I shall flow to Thee; Teeming with despoilers’ souls shall it ever be."
Nope. I just read a similar oath in a quora posting by Murphy Barrett on paladin oaths. A very, very good posting. The oath I posted is mostly one of his, modified a bit for my character's specific situation. Not sure I'm allowed to post a link to his write-up. If I find out I'm allowed, I will.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
What if you have a Paladin with an Oath of Vengance, who upon their adventures, comes to discover/learn that they are being consumed by their quest for vengance and are allowing that obsession to change them for the worse, so they decide to focus on forgiveness and redemption instead? (Something that is a harder struggle for them than justifying the deaths of others as they pursue their ultimate goal) Would they technically then be an Oath Breaker? Curious if that's an arch that can be explored and if they'd idk turn into a Death Knight or some such for breaking their Oath of Vengance.
What if you have a Paladin with an Oath of Vengance, who upon their adventures, comes to discover/learn that they are being consumed by their quest for vengance and are allowing that obsession to change them for the worse, so they decide to focus on forgiveness and redemption instead? (Something that is a harder struggle for them than justifying the deaths of others as they pursue their ultimate goal) Would they technically then be an Oath Breaker? Curious if that's an arch that can be explored and if they'd idk turn into a Death Knight or some such for breaking their Oath of Vengance.
Using the rules as written, your paladin who turns away cannot become a Death Knight. Per the description of Oathbreaker, "..An Oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks his or her sacred oaths to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power. Whatever light burned in the paladin’s heart has been extinguished. Only darkness remains. A paladin must be evil and at least 3rd level to become an Oathbreaker."
The paladin you've described is turning away from evil and darkness "..to focus on forgiveness and redemption instead..." Definitely not an Oathbreaker. Now, would that allow the paladin to become the mirror opposite of a Death Knight? *shrug* That's up to the DM but it sounds like a cool concept. Heck, even Darth Vader found redemption and turned to the Light Side. That Star Wars movie was more than bit of a cop out, in my opinion; as a DM, I'd make the player really work for that redemption.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
I love that this thread exists because it was actually a crucial plot point for my Oath of Vengeance Paladin that was inspired by the release of the Oath of Redemption. While maybe not fully mechanically accurate, I interpreted my paladin's oath of vengeance to be the destruction of those who were responsible for his swearing of the oath in the first place (an evil cult). When their destruction came at the hand of someone else, he didn't know what to do after the battle. Following some RL downtime and a jump in time in the game, I reintroduced him as someone coming to terms with the wounds he had inflicted during the pursuit of his oath. The oath of redemption was him redeeming himself.
I love that this thread exists because it was actually a crucial plot point for my Oath of Vengeance Paladin that was inspired by the release of the Oath of Redemption. While maybe not fully mechanically accurate, I interpreted my paladin's oath of vengeance to be the destruction of those who were responsible for his swearing of the oath in the first place (an evil cult). When their destruction came at the hand of someone else, he didn't know what to do after the battle. Following some RL downtime and a jump in time in the game, I reintroduced him as someone coming to terms with the wounds he had inflicted during the pursuit of his oath. The oath of redemption was him redeeming himself.
This is a freakin' awesome concept. Well done!
"Wait..my liege and holder of my oath..is the Bad Guy? I'M the Bad Guy!?!" *look of overwhelming horror*
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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
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So what happens when an oath of vengence paladin avenges whatever wrong that caused them to become a vengeance paladin? If they've fulfilled their goal of avenging that wrong, they don't really have any specific reason or target to deal out further vengeance. Or what if whatever they sought vengeance on was already killed before they could do it themselves? Does that make them an oathbreaker because someone beat them to the punch? Maybe they become a redemption paladin because they weren't able to achieve their vengeance oath? I'm not sure what the protocol is for what might happen afterwards in either situation.
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ModeratorBeing a vengeance paladin isn't just about exacting your own vengeance. It's about punishing wrongdoers even if it means sacrificing your own righteousness. Even if you had a justice you wanted to carry out, a vengeance paladin's job isn't done when they have completed their goal.
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An oath breaker is something a lot more severe than failing in one of the tenets of your oath; it's a paladin on a path towards becoming a death knight.
The general answer to what happens is it's up to you and your DM; if you consider the oath fulfilled, or no longer possible to fulfil, then the obvious answer is to change oaths. Was the character a paladin before they swore their oath of vengeance and had a previous oath they could return to? Do they consider themselves to have failed and instead swear an oath of redemption (with some tweaks)? Did they succeed and swear an oath of glory?
Alternatively, was your target's death the end of the threat? It's equally valid to change the target of your oath of vengeance to someone else, maybe even the person that killed them, maybe someone they worked for, or some evil that corrupted them into becoming your enemy in the first place and so-on.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Keep in mind that the tenets of an oath are not the oath itself. Tenet is defined as "a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy." An oath is a statement of devotion.
Example: The elven god Silvanus has been described as "Silvanus is chiefly concerned with nature itself, specifically wild nature, in both its natural beauty and fierce savagery. Caring very little for maintaining a proper balance with civilization, being wrathful towards those who threaten wild places. He pays no attention to the machinations of mortals or other deities. When it came to nature itself, he cared greatly for maintaining a balance between growth and decay, water and drought, fire and ice — the natural cycle of life. This is considered to be his dogma and he is emotionally distant in regards to its necessity. This leads some to view him as heartless, though in reality he values all life. He had a special hatred for those who used fire carelessly or with deliberate intention to cause destruction." - Forgotten Realms Wiki
So the tenets of a Paladin of Vengeance's oath to Silvanus could be track down and destroy those who despoil wild nature by interrupting the natural balance of Life, either by ending it before its time or extending it unnaturally. Especially if the premature ending of nature was done with fire.
However, the actual oath of a Vengeance Paladin of Silvanus could go as follows:
"Vengeance I shall be;
For Thee, Silvanus, for Thee;
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand;
That my Self may swiftly carry out Thy command;
That I strike down threats to the Wild with great vengeance and fury enfiled;
And a red river forth I shall flow to Thee;
Teeming with despoilers’ souls shall it ever be."
Basically, the paladin is dedicating his life to tracking down and killing all despoilers of Nature, using the tenets that Silvanus set forth as the guidelines for identifying said despoilers. His duty will never end.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me
That makes sense and props for the cool rhyming oath by the way. I guess I was thinking about if their oath was taken for something more specific like hunting down and killing someone who murdered their family. Does that mean the oath sworn is intended to be more broad in a general sense of idea? It does say that "The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin. ...these, paladins arise and swear an Oath of Vengeance to set right that which has gone wrong" though. So if it can be something more specific like finding and killing a certain murderer, thief, etc. and they do take their vengence, haven't they made right that which has gone wrong? Maybe they swear a new, more general oath like going after all murderers, thieves, or whatever? Is that the kind of idea you mean?
Yes, the oath is more general. "The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin" is more of a generalization of punishing anyone who chooses to commit grievous sins rather than signing up to right a single specific wrong. Think of paladins as being "on call" to defend against misbehavior. Dealing successfully with a single offender counts as a win for that day but the job of monitoring for, and responding to, evil is never done.
Now a character can decide "I'm done with this!" and choose to switch to another Class (with the DM's blessing, of course) but that may mean that he/she then changes Classes and becomes what's called a Fallen Paladin. Or go truly evil him/herself and become an Oathbreaker (a class completely different from the Fallen Paladin one) and switching to different deity. Whatever is agreed upon by the DM and player.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me
Think about the vengeance as the Batman.
Batman didn't stop fighting the crime after he got the one who killed his parents. The continued his crusade.
Same for the vengeance.
One of the Knights of McManus, I assume?
Nope. I just read a similar oath in a quora posting by Murphy Barrett on paladin oaths. A very, very good posting. The oath I posted is mostly one of his, modified a bit for my character's specific situation. Not sure I'm allowed to post a link to his write-up. If I find out I'm allowed, I will.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me
What if you have a Paladin with an Oath of Vengance, who upon their adventures, comes to discover/learn that they are being consumed by their quest for vengance and are allowing that obsession to change them for the worse, so they decide to focus on forgiveness and redemption instead? (Something that is a harder struggle for them than justifying the deaths of others as they pursue their ultimate goal) Would they technically then be an Oath Breaker? Curious if that's an arch that can be explored and if they'd idk turn into a Death Knight or some such for breaking their Oath of Vengance.
- Farrah Fawxx
"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Using the rules as written, your paladin who turns away cannot become a Death Knight. Per the description of Oathbreaker, "..An Oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks his or her sacred oaths to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power. Whatever light burned in the paladin’s heart has been extinguished. Only darkness remains. A paladin must be evil and at least 3rd level to become an Oathbreaker."
The paladin you've described is turning away from evil and darkness "..to focus on forgiveness and redemption instead..." Definitely not an Oathbreaker. Now, would that allow the paladin to become the mirror opposite of a Death Knight? *shrug* That's up to the DM but it sounds like a cool concept. Heck, even Darth Vader found redemption and turned to the Light Side. That Star Wars movie was more than bit of a cop out, in my opinion; as a DM, I'd make the player really work for that redemption.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me
You can always use it as a jumping off point to dual class.
I love that this thread exists because it was actually a crucial plot point for my Oath of Vengeance Paladin that was inspired by the release of the Oath of Redemption. While maybe not fully mechanically accurate, I interpreted my paladin's oath of vengeance to be the destruction of those who were responsible for his swearing of the oath in the first place (an evil cult). When their destruction came at the hand of someone else, he didn't know what to do after the battle. Following some RL downtime and a jump in time in the game, I reintroduced him as someone coming to terms with the wounds he had inflicted during the pursuit of his oath. The oath of redemption was him redeeming himself.
This is a freakin' awesome concept. Well done!
"Wait..my liege and holder of my oath..is the Bad Guy? I'M the Bad Guy!?!" *look of overwhelming horror*
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me