"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath."
again this is not really an debate anymore...
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath."
again this is not really an debate anymore...
What's that quote from?
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath."
again this is not really an debate anymore...
What's that quote from?
I believe from the section on magic in the PHB.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
If a Paladin needs no relationship to any higher intelligence to get their powers in a particular cosmology (AKA DM's version of the universe) then there is no reason for the Oathbreaker to exist in that universe as many if not most real life determinations of "crossing the line" require a thinking, determinative consciousness to pass judgment.
If a Paladin needs no relationship to any higher intelligence to get their powers in a particular cosmology (AKA DM's version of the universe) then there is no reason for the Oathbreaker to exist in that universe as many if not most real life determinations of "crossing the line" require a thinking, determinative consciousness to pass judgment.
When a paladin reaches third level, they swear an oath. Once they break this oath, they become an oathbreaker. They can't just make up terms as they go, they must abide by what they swear in their oath.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
If a Paladin needs no relationship to any higher intelligence to get their powers in a particular cosmology (AKA DM's version of the universe) then there is no reason for the Oathbreaker to exist in that universe as many if not most real life determinations of "crossing the line" require a thinking, determinative consciousness to pass judgment.
When a paladin reaches third level, they swear an oath. Once they break this oath, they become an oathbreaker. They can't just make up terms as they go, they must abide by what they swear in their oath.
But an oath is like a law, right? And breaking of a law isn't always clear cut. If a person kills another person, is that automatically First Degree murder? No, it could be 2nd degree, Manslaughter, justifiable Self-Defense, innocent by reason of temporary Insanity, etc. Without some being with an Intellect and life experience to make a determination, there are a Lot of scenarios that a Paladin becomes an Oathbreaker just by adventuring since adventurers by and large, do a lot of killing, deception, and looting. Even if the Paladin PC is not the one solely or directly responsible for killing, deception or looting, isn't s/he still somewhat responsible? There is such a category as being an "Accessory to Murder," after all.
This argument that Oathbreaking is easy to spot only assumes that the Paladin who is forcibly turned in an Oathbreaker is obviously a depraved and corrupt individual. The reality of morality is filled with shades of gray. There is a reason that most science fiction depicting AI intelligence taking over law enforcement shows a deeply sick society of pure law and no freedom: AI is not capable of the kind of subjective, nuanced examination of evidence that allows for a diverse range of activity.
I imagine different orders and individuals would have different rules. Here are some ideas I concocted:
An order of knights that have very strict oaths. They test initiates repeatedly, and only one in a hundred ever makes it to serve as a full paladin. Their oaths are massive like a book of law, and are said during a twelve hour vigil and induction ceremony.
A single knight that measure their deeds to ultimately decide if they did good or evil. Did their lies and deception ultimately do more good than evil?
Knights sworn to obey a person they find to be good, and their oath hinges on that person's wishes.
Since power comes form faith, misplaced faith is still powerful. A mass-murderer could become a Paladin if they believe that they are right, and that is a terrifying idea. Would actually make for an excellent antagonist.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I imagine different orders and individuals would have different rules. Here are some ideas I concocted:
An order of knights that have very strict oaths. They test initiates repeatedly, and only one in a hundred ever makes it to serve as a full paladin. Their oaths are massive like a book of law, and are said during a twelve hour vigil and induction ceremony.
A single knight that measure their deeds to ultimately decide if they did good or evil. Did their lies and deception ultimately do more good than evil?
Knights sworn to obey a person they find to be good, and their oath hinges on that person's wishes.
Since power comes form faith, misplaced faith is still powerful. A mass-murderer could become a Paladin if they believe that they are right, and that is a terrifying idea. Would actually make for an excellent antagonist.
conquest paladin, secretly being inspired to act by an devilish plot perhaps?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yeah. Or someone who is legitimately insane, and truly believes they are doing to right thing. Or a religious zealot that in the style of modern day terrorists.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I imagine different orders and individuals would have different rules. Here are some ideas I concocted:
An order of knights that have very strict oaths. They test initiates repeatedly, and only one in a hundred ever makes it to serve as a full paladin. Their oaths are massive like a book of law, and are said during a twelve hour vigil and induction ceremony.
A single knight that measure their deeds to ultimately decide if they did good or evil. Did their lies and deception ultimately do more good than evil?
Knights sworn to obey a person they find to be good, and their oath hinges on that person's wishes.
Since power comes form faith, misplaced faith is still powerful. A mass-murderer could become a Paladin if they believe that they are right, and that is a terrifying idea. Would actually make for an excellent antagonist.
Not that I'm against turns of the plot or the playing of unwittingly evil Paladins, but I have a hard time seeing how a Knight would happen to be following every single Paladin to see if the goofed enough to take away their stripes. Even if this were possible, it stretches credulity that most Paladins would accept being constantly monitored/babsat by someone else for the rest of their careers. I suppose it's possible to create a world where high level Wizards are constantly monitoring Paladins with divination spells, but the fact that such an institution would be created and sustained already implies that Paladins in that world are not to be trusted - even less so than Wizards.
In DnD lore, the souls of true atheists are sent to the 9th Hell of Baator (9th layer of Hell), Nessus, where Asmodeus will slowly devour their souls. So in DnD, you can be an atheist, but it may not end well. ;)
And this isn't some pro-religion angle or ulterior motive, on my part. Just saying, this is how being an atheist works with DnD lore. The gods gather their followers on the Fugue Plane. If you didn't worship the gods in life, you are one of the faithless. Agnostics are sent to Kelemvor, to be judged. True atheists are fast tracked to the bottom layer of Hell, where Asmodeus awaits them.
"All his plans were done with the goal to destroy the entire construct of the Outer Planes. Asmodeus's fall into the Nine Hells and the ancient struggle with Jazirian caused him severe wounds and basically created the underlying laws of the Great Wheel cosmology, which drained his powers. Restoring his powers required the healing of his wounds. However, the nourishment needed to heal his wounds was the souls of disbelievers, not agnostics but true atheists. These souls were special. Normally, when a person died, that person's soul became a petitioner on one of the Outer Planes. For example, in Toril's case, the souls became petitioners on the Fugue Plane. However, to become a petitioner, a person needed to have faith, which atheists lacked, and their souls arrived at Nessus regardless of their moral and ethical outlook. This was practically unknown to mortals, as the common assumption was that souls of true atheists would not become petitioners, an exception to the rule that souls went where their deities awaited them. Asmodeus ate these souls to heal his wounds. Once healed, he could take back his power from the planes, dissolving the underlying law of the multiverse, causing the (for him) preferable result of reverting everything to the initial state of chaos. He was sure that he alone would survive such an event and remain as the only force that could create a new order according to his will" - Guide to Hell, TSR, 1999
In DnD lore, the souls of true atheists are sent to the 9th Hell of Baator (9th layer of Hell), Nessus, where Asmodeus will slowly devour their souls. So in DnD, you can be an atheist, but it may not end well. ;)
And this isn't some pro-religion angle or ulterior motive, on my part. Just saying, this is how being an atheist works with DnD lore. The gods gather their followers on the Fugue Plane. If you didn't worship the gods in life, you are one of the faithless. Agnostics are sent to Kelemvor, to be judged. True atheists are fast tracked to the bottom layer of Hell, where Asmodeus awaits them.
i wonder why it is specifically the law-aligned evil plane, and why this is one of the few ways you can skip going through avernus first
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Agnostic is from the greek to not know (a- not/no, gnosis- to know). There is a god but we can never know their true will, so we follow a path of logic, not pure faith, to understand them.
Atheists means without god (a- not/no, theos- deity). They either do not believe in any god or religion, or the are seen by other faiths to be following a false god.
If you're going to necro a thread, at least use the quote button if you'd like to respond to a specific post in it so that other people have some idea of which one you're referring to. Using the reply button just lets people know that you're responding to a post, not which one it is. That's not useful, especially with a thread that's almost a year old.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath."
again this is not really an debate anymore...
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
What's that quote from?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I believe from the section on magic in the PHB.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
If a Paladin needs no relationship to any higher intelligence to get their powers in a particular cosmology (AKA DM's version of the universe) then there is no reason for the Oathbreaker to exist in that universe as many if not most real life determinations of "crossing the line" require a thinking, determinative consciousness to pass judgment.
That is incorrect. There could be a preset threshold for all paladins where they would become Oathbreakers.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
When a paladin reaches third level, they swear an oath. Once they break this oath, they become an oathbreaker. They can't just make up terms as they go, they must abide by what they swear in their oath.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
But an oath is like a law, right? And breaking of a law isn't always clear cut. If a person kills another person, is that automatically First Degree murder? No, it could be 2nd degree, Manslaughter, justifiable Self-Defense, innocent by reason of temporary Insanity, etc. Without some being with an Intellect and life experience to make a determination, there are a Lot of scenarios that a Paladin becomes an Oathbreaker just by adventuring since adventurers by and large, do a lot of killing, deception, and looting. Even if the Paladin PC is not the one solely or directly responsible for killing, deception or looting, isn't s/he still somewhat responsible? There is such a category as being an "Accessory to Murder," after all.
This argument that Oathbreaking is easy to spot only assumes that the Paladin who is forcibly turned in an Oathbreaker is obviously a depraved and corrupt individual. The reality of morality is filled with shades of gray. There is a reason that most science fiction depicting AI intelligence taking over law enforcement shows a deeply sick society of pure law and no freedom: AI is not capable of the kind of subjective, nuanced examination of evidence that allows for a diverse range of activity.
I imagine different orders and individuals would have different rules. Here are some ideas I concocted:
Since power comes form faith, misplaced faith is still powerful. A mass-murderer could become a Paladin if they believe that they are right, and that is a terrifying idea. Would actually make for an excellent antagonist.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
conquest paladin, secretly being inspired to act by an devilish plot perhaps?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yeah. Or someone who is legitimately insane, and truly believes they are doing to right thing. Or a religious zealot that in the style of modern day terrorists.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Not that I'm against turns of the plot or the playing of unwittingly evil Paladins, but I have a hard time seeing how a Knight would happen to be following every single Paladin to see if the goofed enough to take away their stripes. Even if this were possible, it stretches credulity that most Paladins would accept being constantly monitored/babsat by someone else for the rest of their careers. I suppose it's possible to create a world where high level Wizards are constantly monitoring Paladins with divination spells, but the fact that such an institution would be created and sustained already implies that Paladins in that world are not to be trusted - even less so than Wizards.
Shot a target in at another range
Hit a target at a different range
In DnD lore, the souls of true atheists are sent to the 9th Hell of Baator (9th layer of Hell), Nessus, where Asmodeus will slowly devour their souls. So in DnD, you can be an atheist, but it may not end well. ;)
And this isn't some pro-religion angle or ulterior motive, on my part. Just saying, this is how being an atheist works with DnD lore. The gods gather their followers on the Fugue Plane. If you didn't worship the gods in life, you are one of the faithless. Agnostics are sent to Kelemvor, to be judged. True atheists are fast tracked to the bottom layer of Hell, where Asmodeus awaits them.
"All his plans were done with the goal to destroy the entire construct of the Outer Planes. Asmodeus's fall into the Nine Hells and the ancient struggle with Jazirian caused him severe wounds and basically created the underlying laws of the Great Wheel cosmology, which drained his powers. Restoring his powers required the healing of his wounds. However, the nourishment needed to heal his wounds was the souls of disbelievers, not agnostics but true atheists. These souls were special. Normally, when a person died, that person's soul became a petitioner on one of the Outer Planes. For example, in Toril's case, the souls became petitioners on the Fugue Plane. However, to become a petitioner, a person needed to have faith, which atheists lacked, and their souls arrived at Nessus regardless of their moral and ethical outlook. This was practically unknown to mortals, as the common assumption was that souls of true atheists would not become petitioners, an exception to the rule that souls went where their deities awaited them. Asmodeus ate these souls to heal his wounds. Once healed, he could take back his power from the planes, dissolving the underlying law of the multiverse, causing the (for him) preferable result of reverting everything to the initial state of chaos. He was sure that he alone would survive such an event and remain as the only force that could create a new order according to his will" - Guide to Hell, TSR, 1999
Asmodeus | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Fandom
i wonder why it is specifically the law-aligned evil plane, and why this is one of the few ways you can skip going through avernus first
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That's only true in one edition of the Forgotten Realms. It's hardly true to D&D as a whole.
Most of the time, atheists and non-believers just wind up on the plane that matches their morality.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Agnostic is from the greek to not know (a- not/no, gnosis- to know). There is a god but we can never know their true will, so we follow a path of logic, not pure faith, to understand them.
Atheists means without god (a- not/no, theos- deity). They either do not believe in any god or religion, or the are seen by other faiths to be following a false god.
If you get the chance, you can use the Iconoclast Supernatural Gift!
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Incorrect. Clerics NEED gods, paladins do not.
If you're going to necro a thread, at least use the quote button if you'd like to respond to a specific post in it so that other people have some idea of which one you're referring to. Using the reply button just lets people know that you're responding to a post, not which one it is. That's not useful, especially with a thread that's almost a year old.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.