that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
It isn't just a people not letting you use your abilities problem. Setting up ambushes is just not an every session thing. Getting a tenth level ability whose most frequent use is hiding better during watch is...unexciting. I'm all for the flavor of it, but it's an overly niche ability. Level 10 should be super juicy, it's way more of a capstone level in practice than 20.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe less people actually know about higher tiered rangers because they always seem to be the ones multi-classing out of the class. xD
Also, if Ranger takes expertise in Stealth, they still get pass without trace, and the passives of not being able to be tracked by non-magical means. In my opinion, that actually does make them the best stealth class in the game. Ranger only gets the "Vanish" feature a bit late.
Either way, there are 13 total classes and I think it's unrealistic to expect every single class to be the 'best' at something, especially when subclasses need to be taken into account as well.
Things like Pass without Trace is the Rangers Version of Expertise in STealth. That's what it is there for without needing to spend an ASI getting expertise through a feat. With Dexterity and Proficiency alone they are highly skilled at stealth however. Competing with any Rogue that doesn't expertise in it. And Rogue's don't necessarily have to expertise in it to practically be stealth gods either. It's just that push over the top to be sure.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe less people actually know about higher tiered rangers because they always seem to be the ones multi-classing out of the class. xD
Also, if Ranger takes expertise in Stealth, they still get pass without trace, and the passives of not being able to be tracked by non-magical means. In my opinion, that actually does make them the best stealth class in the game. Ranger only gets the "Vanish" feature a bit late.
Either way, there are 13 total classes and I think it's unrealistic to expect every single class to be the 'best' at something, especially when subclasses need to be taken into account as well.
Most People make assumptions about High Tiered Rangers because they do a bit of faulty white room math and don't really play them. If you really talk to people many players don't have much experience beyond past level 13 and some of them don't have much experience even going that high. So they make a lot of assumptions based off what other people say and what rules look like at a glance.
The change to Ranger. If you really look most of it is actually to facilitate combat if you want to use the optional rules. Almost none of it really adds to exploration. Some things are just dumbed down versions of what Rangers were already getting to be simple to understand. But they also lose much of the extra features. And people miss out on the fact that thanks to a new feat in Tasha's. Rangers with something like Natural Explorer can pick up Expertise... Now this to some fair interpretations means that You weaken the natural class feature somewhat because the doubled proficiency bonus is part of the class feature. But it means you now have that doubled proficiency on All rolls with survival regardless of Terrain (exactly what Deft Explorer offers at it's lowest tier) and then still get extra benefits in a handful of terrains that you pick that are above and beyond even that anyway. Meaning that nothing even an Survival Expertised person can touch.
But it's more than that. High level Rangers have a slew of hidden gems that most people don't know about. Very few people when talking about how Rangers fall off in Damage do fair comparisons. They stop at basically 11th level with the ranger at best to show their damage cap. But they compare it against htings like 17-20th level Fighters and paladins. They don't take into account things like Swift Quiver... Half of them don't even really know of this spell or what it does. In Basic without getting to into the details this spell is basically Ranged FoB for Rangers. It's only on the Ranger spell list. It's level 5 so it's only available at 17th level. But this spell is just absolutely beautiful. 4 long bow ranged attacks. With all that the ranger can pour into it. Sharp Shooter, magical Bow, non-concentration spells, etc. And There are one or two subtypes of Ranger that can actually get 5 attacks with it, Like the much argued about and hard to understand Beast Master. With this spell. Which they can cast twice a day... This means they get most if not all of two combats a day where they are making as many attacks as the Fighter. And they get to add things from their subclasses on top of that if they apply to their attacks. But it's something you rarely hear of brought up in those highest level comparisons considering that it's a PHB spell. Steel Wind Strike gets talked about a little more. But it's more Melee and it's usage is more restrictive. It's nice for a single round burst but it is not longer duration like Swift Quiver.
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
I'm going to agree with Jounichi on this one. Realistically half the discussion at the table before combats that happens quite regularly from what I have seen is a minute. The argument against it's usefulness is not based on party members really. It's based on it's combat viability. You don't get continued use out of it in combat so it's seen as bad. So they gave you effectively a worse but combat viable option in single round invisibility. Which is kind of Meh for as high a level ability that it is because things like certain bards and warlocks. And all you get for it for getting this at higher level is perhaps to use it a couple more times than they do. That's a weak trade. But it fits what the people complaining loudest want. Combat viability.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe less people actually know about higher tiered rangers because they always seem to be the ones multi-classing out of the class. xD
Also, if Ranger takes expertise in Stealth, they still get pass without trace, and the passives of not being able to be tracked by non-magical means. In my opinion, that actually does make them the best stealth class in the game. Ranger only gets the "Vanish" feature a bit late.
Either way, there are 13 total classes and I think it's unrealistic to expect every single class to be the 'best' at something, especially when subclasses need to be taken into account as well.
Things like Pass without Trace is the Rangers Version of Expertise in STealth. That's what it is there for without needing to spend an ASI getting expertise through a feat. With Dexterity and Proficiency alone they are highly skilled at stealth however. Competing with any Rogue that doesn't expertise in it. And Rogue's don't necessarily have to expertise in it to practically be stealth gods either. It's just that push over the top to be sure.
I meant that you can get expertise in stealth through Deft Explorer. But yeah, I agree. Neither class has to invest that much to be effective.
Lightfoot Halfling: Naturally Stealthy. You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
Wood Elf: Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
The ability works like this. 1. Spend one minute applying camouflage. 2. At some point after that (one second, one minute, one hour, or whatever), you can make a hide check with two additions; A. You can make the check by only pressing yourself against a flat surface (breaking the normal hiding rules, just like the halfling and elf rules), you can be seen, you don't need cover, only the flat surface. B. When you make the check you get a +10 to the attempt.
It's amazing! Right in the middle of combat you can completely disappear when they are looking right at you.
The ability works like this. 1. Spend one minute applying camouflage. 2. At some point after that (one second, one minute, one hour, or whatever), you can make a hide check with two additions; A. You can make the check by only pressing yourself against a flat surface (breaking the normal hiding rules, just like the halfling and elf rules), you can be seen, you don't need cover, only the flat surface. B. When you make the check you get a +10 to the attempt.
Yeah but you can't move. How often do you have the luxury to stand still like that during an adventuring day?
The ability works like this. 1. Spend one minute applying camouflage. 2. At some point after that (one second, one minute, one hour, or whatever), you can make a hide check with two additions; A. You can make the check by only pressing yourself against a flat surface (breaking the normal hiding rules, just like the halfling and elf rules), you can be seen, you don't need cover, only the flat surface. B. When you make the check you get a +10 to the attempt.
Yeah but you can't move. How often do you have the luxury to stand still like that during an adventuring day?
You can literally disappear in the middle of anything. I'm not going to go into how someone may or may not choose to use that tactically. We now have options for those that want a cleaner ability.
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
I'm going to agree with Jounichi on this one. Realistically half the discussion at the table before combats that happens quite regularly from what I have seen is a minute. The argument against it's usefulness is not based on party members really. It's based on it's combat viability. You don't get continued use out of it in combat so it's seen as bad. So they gave you effectively a worse but combat viable option in single round invisibility. Which is kind of Meh for as high a level ability that it is because things like certain bards and warlocks. And all you get for it for getting this at higher level is perhaps to use it a couple more times than they do. That's a weak trade. But it fits what the people complaining loudest want. Combat viability.
And this is where things get a little weird. Starting at 10th-level, the ranger has little problem stacking bonuses to Stealth for ambushing. They can cast pass without trace to benefit the party while also hiding with a neat +20 bonus and not taking up cover that someone else needs. But come 14th-level, rangers get Vanish.
Vanish
Starting at 14th level, you can use the Hide action as a bonus action on your turn. Also, you can’t be tracked by nonmagical means, unless you choose to leave a trail.
This is a straight buff to Hide in Plain Sight; allowing it to be used effectively during combat. We think it's weird and comes too late because the rogue gets Cunning Action at 2nd-level. But here, they no longer need to set up ambushes to gain the benefit. And they can use it whenever they want to during the battle. It just means constantly reapplying the camouflage.
And nothing sees through it. Spells can't locate you. Truesight doesn't even work against it. These two abilities, used together, are insanely powerful.
The ability works like this. 1. Spend one minute applying camouflage. 2. At some point after that (one second, one minute, one hour, or whatever), you can make a hide check with two additions; A. You can make the check by only pressing yourself against a flat surface (breaking the normal hiding rules, just like the halfling and elf rules), you can be seen, you don't need cover, only the flat surface. B. When you make the check you get a +10 to the attempt.
Yeah but you can't move. How often do you have the luxury to stand still like that during an adventuring day?
You can literally disappear in the middle of anything. I'm not going to go into how someone may or may not choose to use that tactically. We now have options for those that want a cleaner ability.
I wasn't asking for a detailed breakdown of how one could use the ability. I was calling into question how practical the ability is to actually use.
The ability works like this. 1. Spend one minute applying camouflage. 2. At some point after that (one second, one minute, one hour, or whatever), you can make a hide check with two additions; A. You can make the check by only pressing yourself against a flat surface (breaking the normal hiding rules, just like the halfling and elf rules), you can be seen, you don't need cover, only the flat surface. B. When you make the check you get a +10 to the attempt.
Yeah but you can't move. How often do you have the luxury to stand still like that during an adventuring day?
You can literally disappear in the middle of anything. I'm not going to go into how someone may or may not choose to use that tactically. We now have options for those that want a cleaner ability.
I wasn't asking for a detailed breakdown of how one could use the ability. I was calling into question how practical the ability is to actually use.
I see. I apologize for misunderstanding.
I personally find it very practical, in combat and out.
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
You say assumptions but I have stated specifically in my experiences. Those aren’t assumptions.
and absolutely the problem is the dm and the people.
hence why I said foe the majority of most campaigns. It takes too much time. It’s because of others.
now: I’ll try and simplify what I am saying So that it is more clear: it would be significantly easier and more convenient for hide in plain sight to get tweaked to be more relevant naturally despite lack of knowledge of DMs or patience of players. Than it would be to re-educate an entire population of players and DMs for the ability to be used as raw and rai
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
I'm going to agree with Jounichi on this one. Realistically half the discussion at the table before combats that happens quite regularly from what I have seen is a minute. The argument against it's usefulness is not based on party members really. It's based on it's combat viability. You don't get continued use out of it in combat so it's seen as bad. So they gave you effectively a worse but combat viable option in single round invisibility. Which is kind of Meh for as high a level ability that it is because things like certain bards and warlocks. And all you get for it for getting this at higher level is perhaps to use it a couple more times than they do. That's a weak trade. But it fits what the people complaining loudest want. Combat viability.
And this is where things get a little weird. Starting at 10th-level, the ranger has little problem stacking bonuses to Stealth for ambushing. They can cast pass without trace to benefit the party while also hiding with a neat +20 bonus and not taking up cover that someone else needs. But come 14th-level, rangers get Vanish.
Vanish
Starting at 14th level, you can use the Hide action as a bonus action on your turn. Also, you can’t be tracked by nonmagical means, unless you choose to leave a trail.
This is a straight buff to Hide in Plain Sight; allowing it to be used effectively during combat. We think it's weird and comes too late because the rogue gets Cunning Action at 2nd-level. But here, they no longer need to set up ambushes to gain the benefit. And they can use it whenever they want to during the battle. It just means constantly reapplying the camouflage.
And nothing sees through it. Spells can't locate you. Truesight doesn't even work against it. These two abilities, used together, are insanely powerful.
Clarification:
how does vanish change the “it takes 1 minute” to reapply the stuff?
Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
“Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.”
How does vanish get rid of this 1 minute reapplication?
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
You say assumptions but I have stated specifically in my experiences. Those aren’t assumptions.
and absolutely the problem is the dm and the people.
hence why I said foe the majority of most campaigns. It takes too much time. It’s because of others.
now: I’ll try and simplify what I am saying So that it is more clear: it would be significantly easier and more convenient for hide in plain sight to get tweaked to be more relevant naturally despite lack of knowledge of DMs or patience of players. Than it would be to re-educate an entire population of players and DMs for the ability to be used as raw and rai
Yes, you are making assumptions.
You can only speak accurately to your personal experiences. You cannot say things like "most people are Leroys" and "[for] the majority of most campaigns" without resorting to generalizations. Your experience does not trump everyone else's.
And you're still missing the forest for the trees: the people you play with negatively impact its usefulness. That's their fault. And yours for not doing anything about it. If you want to use your feature to the best of its ability, get them on board. And if they won't facilitate effective team play, then look at other options.
The feature is fine. Dialogue is the solution here.
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
I'm going to agree with Jounichi on this one. Realistically half the discussion at the table before combats that happens quite regularly from what I have seen is a minute. The argument against it's usefulness is not based on party members really. It's based on it's combat viability. You don't get continued use out of it in combat so it's seen as bad. So they gave you effectively a worse but combat viable option in single round invisibility. Which is kind of Meh for as high a level ability that it is because things like certain bards and warlocks. And all you get for it for getting this at higher level is perhaps to use it a couple more times than they do. That's a weak trade. But it fits what the people complaining loudest want. Combat viability.
And this is where things get a little weird. Starting at 10th-level, the ranger has little problem stacking bonuses to Stealth for ambushing. They can cast pass without trace to benefit the party while also hiding with a neat +20 bonus and not taking up cover that someone else needs. But come 14th-level, rangers get Vanish.
Vanish
Starting at 14th level, you can use the Hide action as a bonus action on your turn. Also, you can’t be tracked by nonmagical means, unless you choose to leave a trail.
This is a straight buff to Hide in Plain Sight; allowing it to be used effectively during combat. We think it's weird and comes too late because the rogue gets Cunning Action at 2nd-level. But here, they no longer need to set up ambushes to gain the benefit. And they can use it whenever they want to during the battle. It just means constantly reapplying the camouflage.
And nothing sees through it. Spells can't locate you. Truesight doesn't even work against it. These two abilities, used together, are insanely powerful.
Clarification:
how does vanish change the “it takes 1 minute” to reapply the stuff?
Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
“Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.”
How does vanish get rid of this 1 minute reapplication?
It doesn't remove the 1 minute application time, but there's no time limit on when the camouflage expires after applied. It can, theoretically, be ready to invoke all day long. You only have to replace it after it's been used once already.
The only thing the 1 minute application time restricts you to is not being able to reapply in combat. So long as your camouflage is from the terrain you're currently in, you're golden.
that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
I'm going to agree with Jounichi on this one. Realistically half the discussion at the table before combats that happens quite regularly from what I have seen is a minute. The argument against it's usefulness is not based on party members really. It's based on it's combat viability. You don't get continued use out of it in combat so it's seen as bad. So they gave you effectively a worse but combat viable option in single round invisibility. Which is kind of Meh for as high a level ability that it is because things like certain bards and warlocks. And all you get for it for getting this at higher level is perhaps to use it a couple more times than they do. That's a weak trade. But it fits what the people complaining loudest want. Combat viability.
And this is where things get a little weird. Starting at 10th-level, the ranger has little problem stacking bonuses to Stealth for ambushing. They can cast pass without trace to benefit the party while also hiding with a neat +20 bonus and not taking up cover that someone else needs. But come 14th-level, rangers get Vanish.
Vanish
Starting at 14th level, you can use the Hide action as a bonus action on your turn. Also, you can’t be tracked by nonmagical means, unless you choose to leave a trail.
This is a straight buff to Hide in Plain Sight; allowing it to be used effectively during combat. We think it's weird and comes too late because the rogue gets Cunning Action at 2nd-level. But here, they no longer need to set up ambushes to gain the benefit. And they can use it whenever they want to during the battle. It just means constantly reapplying the camouflage.
And nothing sees through it. Spells can't locate you. Truesight doesn't even work against it. These two abilities, used together, are insanely powerful.
Clarification:
how does vanish change the “it takes 1 minute” to reapply the stuff?
Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
“Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.”
How does vanish get rid of this 1 minute reapplication?
It doesn't remove the 1 minute application time, but there's no time limit on when the camouflage expires after applied. It can, theoretically, be ready to invoke all day long. You only have to replace it after it's been used once already.
The only thing the 1 minute application time restricts you to is not being able to reapply in combat. So long as your camouflage is from the terrain you're currently in, you're golden.
It literally says in the desc. That you quoted. That I quoted you quoting. The camouflage expires the second you move. It’s not makeup. It’s you covering yourself with stuff.
Sorry late edit add— you also need to press up against a solid object. Which in the middle of combat is not always available either.
i do however, think your homebrew interpretation makes it much much better.
Please, clean up your formatting. I'm tired of dealing with all those unnecessary carriage returns.
And it's not homebrew. Let's look at the paragraph again. Line by line, this time.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are.
Again, there's no time limit for this. It doesn't say how long you have before needing to reapply. Only that you can.
You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity ([skill]Stealth[/skill) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions.
Now we've gotten to the meat of the feature. Once pressed against a solid surface, you gain the +10 bonus to your ability check. But only so long as you remain there. Namely, by not moving and not taking any actions.
Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
These are all normal activities that can expose a hidden character. And as such, doing anything that ends their hidden status also renders the camouflage useless. That said, if they want the +10 bonus again, they can still apply another round of camouflage. They just won't have the opportunity to do so again in combat. Ten rounds is a long time, after all.
I don't know why you think that any sort of movement at all renders the camouflage completely useless. If that was the intent, it would have its own paragraph. Instead, the above is only talking about breaking from the hidden position. The alternative, as you've suggested, would render even using it for overnight watches meaningless. If you have to be pressed up against a surface at least as big as you are and cannot move, then you're limiting your field of vision. You can't investigate a noise. You can't alert people if anything is in the area. You're not really on watch.
I find the sidebar on Hiding at the end of this section particularly useful. As to be expected, the DM is the final arbiter of when someone can or cannot hide. But the feature is clearly intended to expand the normal options, and nothing in how the feature is written makes it as remotely as restrictive as you claim it is. That's just your, or your DM's interpretation.
Please, clean up your formatting. I'm tired of dealing with all those unnecessary carriage returns.
And it's not homebrew. Let's look at the paragraph again. Line by line, this time.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are.
Again, there's no time limit for this. It doesn't say how long you have before needing to reapply. Only that you can.
You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity ([skill]Stealth[/skill) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions.
Now we've gotten to the meat of the feature. Once pressed against a solid surface, you gain the +10 bonus to your ability check. But only so long as you remain there. Namely, by not moving and not taking any actions.
Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
These are all normal activities that can expose a hidden character. And as such, doing anything that ends their hidden status also renders the camouflage useless. That said, if they want the +10 bonus again, they can still apply another round of camouflage. They just won't have the opportunity to do so again in combat. Ten rounds is a long time, after all.
I don't know why you think that any sort of movement at all renders the camouflage completely useless. If that was the intent, it would have its own paragraph. Instead, the above is only talking about breaking from the hidden position. The alternative, as you've suggested, would render even using it for overnight watches meaningless. If you have to be pressed up against a surface at least as big as you are and cannot move, then you're limiting your field of vision. You can't investigate a noise. You can't alert people if anything is in the area. You're not really on watch.
I find the sidebar on Hiding at the end of this section particularly useful. As to be expected, the DM is the final arbiter of when someone can or cannot hide. But the feature is clearly intended to expand the normal options, and nothing in how the feature is written makes it as remotely as restrictive as you claim it is. That's just your, or your DM's interpretation.
Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
you are willfully and deliberately ignoring this. And so, between that and your condescending tone I am going to vanish from this pointless conversation where you are rambling about homebrew.
[quote] Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. [bold] Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.[bold][quote]
look. Right there^ my claim is based on how it’s written. Yours is based on homebrew. Keep being obtuse and condescending. See how far that gets you in life. (Ignore feature/vanish)
as for the limiting field of vision... that’s 1 of 5 senses.
For the last time, it's not homebrew. If it only worked how you describe, then it wouldn't be in the same paragraph. It would be on its own, as a stand-alone paragraph comprised of just one sentence.
If you want it to be more narrow, that's your business. But you don't get to tell other people they're wrong when plain English says otherwise.
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Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
It isn't just a people not letting you use your abilities problem. Setting up ambushes is just not an every session thing. Getting a tenth level ability whose most frequent use is hiding better during watch is...unexciting. I'm all for the flavor of it, but it's an overly niche ability. Level 10 should be super juicy, it's way more of a capstone level in practice than 20.
Things like Pass without Trace is the Rangers Version of Expertise in STealth. That's what it is there for without needing to spend an ASI getting expertise through a feat. With Dexterity and Proficiency alone they are highly skilled at stealth however. Competing with any Rogue that doesn't expertise in it. And Rogue's don't necessarily have to expertise in it to practically be stealth gods either. It's just that push over the top to be sure.
Most People make assumptions about High Tiered Rangers because they do a bit of faulty white room math and don't really play them. If you really talk to people many players don't have much experience beyond past level 13 and some of them don't have much experience even going that high. So they make a lot of assumptions based off what other people say and what rules look like at a glance.
The change to Ranger. If you really look most of it is actually to facilitate combat if you want to use the optional rules. Almost none of it really adds to exploration. Some things are just dumbed down versions of what Rangers were already getting to be simple to understand. But they also lose much of the extra features. And people miss out on the fact that thanks to a new feat in Tasha's. Rangers with something like Natural Explorer can pick up Expertise... Now this to some fair interpretations means that You weaken the natural class feature somewhat because the doubled proficiency bonus is part of the class feature. But it means you now have that doubled proficiency on All rolls with survival regardless of Terrain (exactly what Deft Explorer offers at it's lowest tier) and then still get extra benefits in a handful of terrains that you pick that are above and beyond even that anyway. Meaning that nothing even an Survival Expertised person can touch.
But it's more than that. High level Rangers have a slew of hidden gems that most people don't know about. Very few people when talking about how Rangers fall off in Damage do fair comparisons. They stop at basically 11th level with the ranger at best to show their damage cap. But they compare it against htings like 17-20th level Fighters and paladins. They don't take into account things like Swift Quiver... Half of them don't even really know of this spell or what it does. In Basic without getting to into the details this spell is basically Ranged FoB for Rangers. It's only on the Ranger spell list. It's level 5 so it's only available at 17th level. But this spell is just absolutely beautiful. 4 long bow ranged attacks. With all that the ranger can pour into it. Sharp Shooter, magical Bow, non-concentration spells, etc. And There are one or two subtypes of Ranger that can actually get 5 attacks with it, Like the much argued about and hard to understand Beast Master. With this spell. Which they can cast twice a day... This means they get most if not all of two combats a day where they are making as many attacks as the Fighter. And they get to add things from their subclasses on top of that if they apply to their attacks. But it's something you rarely hear of brought up in those highest level comparisons considering that it's a PHB spell. Steel Wind Strike gets talked about a little more. But it's more Melee and it's usage is more restrictive. It's nice for a single round burst but it is not longer duration like Swift Quiver.
I'm going to agree with Jounichi on this one. Realistically half the discussion at the table before combats that happens quite regularly from what I have seen is a minute. The argument against it's usefulness is not based on party members really. It's based on it's combat viability. You don't get continued use out of it in combat so it's seen as bad. So they gave you effectively a worse but combat viable option in single round invisibility. Which is kind of Meh for as high a level ability that it is because things like certain bards and warlocks. And all you get for it for getting this at higher level is perhaps to use it a couple more times than they do. That's a weak trade. But it fits what the people complaining loudest want. Combat viability.
I meant that you can get expertise in stealth through Deft Explorer. But yeah, I agree. Neither class has to invest that much to be effective.
Lightfoot Halfling: Naturally Stealthy. You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
Wood Elf: Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
The ability works like this. 1. Spend one minute applying camouflage. 2. At some point after that (one second, one minute, one hour, or whatever), you can make a hide check with two additions; A. You can make the check by only pressing yourself against a flat surface (breaking the normal hiding rules, just like the halfling and elf rules), you can be seen, you don't need cover, only the flat surface. B. When you make the check you get a +10 to the attempt.
It's amazing! Right in the middle of combat you can completely disappear when they are looking right at you.
Yeah but you can't move. How often do you have the luxury to stand still like that during an adventuring day?
You can literally disappear in the middle of anything. I'm not going to go into how someone may or may not choose to use that tactically. We now have options for those that want a cleaner ability.
And this is where things get a little weird. Starting at 10th-level, the ranger has little problem stacking bonuses to Stealth for ambushing. They can cast pass without trace to benefit the party while also hiding with a neat +20 bonus and not taking up cover that someone else needs. But come 14th-level, rangers get Vanish.
This is a straight buff to Hide in Plain Sight; allowing it to be used effectively during combat. We think it's weird and comes too late because the rogue gets Cunning Action at 2nd-level. But here, they no longer need to set up ambushes to gain the benefit. And they can use it whenever they want to during the battle. It just means constantly reapplying the camouflage.
And nothing sees through it. Spells can't locate you. Truesight doesn't even work against it. These two abilities, used together, are insanely powerful.
I wasn't asking for a detailed breakdown of how one could use the ability. I was calling into question how practical the ability is to actually use.
I see. I apologize for misunderstanding.
I personally find it very practical, in combat and out.
You say assumptions but I have stated specifically in my experiences. Those aren’t assumptions.
and absolutely the problem is the dm and the people.
hence why I said foe the majority of most campaigns. It takes too much time. It’s because of others.
now: I’ll try and simplify what I am saying So that it is more clear: it would be significantly easier and more convenient for hide in plain sight to get tweaked to be more relevant naturally despite lack of knowledge of DMs or patience of players. Than it would be to re-educate an entire population of players and DMs for the ability to be used as raw and rai
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Clarification:
how does vanish change the “it takes 1 minute” to reapply the stuff?
Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
“Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.”
How does vanish get rid of this 1 minute reapplication?
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Yes, you are making assumptions.
You can only speak accurately to your personal experiences. You cannot say things like "most people are Leroys" and "[for] the majority of most campaigns" without resorting to generalizations. Your experience does not trump everyone else's.
And you're still missing the forest for the trees: the people you play with negatively impact its usefulness. That's their fault. And yours for not doing anything about it. If you want to use your feature to the best of its ability, get them on board. And if they won't facilitate effective team play, then look at other options.
The feature is fine. Dialogue is the solution here.
It doesn't remove the 1 minute application time, but there's no time limit on when the camouflage expires after applied. It can, theoretically, be ready to invoke all day long. You only have to replace it after it's been used once already.
The only thing the 1 minute application time restricts you to is not being able to reapply in combat. So long as your camouflage is from the terrain you're currently in, you're golden.
It literally says in the desc. That you quoted. That I quoted you quoting. The camouflage expires the second you move. It’s not makeup. It’s you covering yourself with stuff.
Sorry late edit add— you also need to press up against a solid object. Which in the middle of combat is not always available either.
i do however, think your homebrew interpretation makes it much much better.
Watch me on twitch
Please, clean up your formatting. I'm tired of dealing with all those unnecessary carriage returns.
And it's not homebrew. Let's look at the paragraph again. Line by line, this time.
Again, there's no time limit for this. It doesn't say how long you have before needing to reapply. Only that you can.
Now we've gotten to the meat of the feature. Once pressed against a solid surface, you gain the +10 bonus to your ability check. But only so long as you remain there. Namely, by not moving and not taking any actions.
These are all normal activities that can expose a hidden character. And as such, doing anything that ends their hidden status also renders the camouflage useless. That said, if they want the +10 bonus again, they can still apply another round of camouflage. They just won't have the opportunity to do so again in combat. Ten rounds is a long time, after all.
I don't know why you think that any sort of movement at all renders the camouflage completely useless. If that was the intent, it would have its own paragraph. Instead, the above is only talking about breaking from the hidden position. The alternative, as you've suggested, would render even using it for overnight watches meaningless. If you have to be pressed up against a surface at least as big as you are and cannot move, then you're limiting your field of vision. You can't investigate a noise. You can't alert people if anything is in the area. You're not really on watch.
I find the sidebar on Hiding at the end of this section particularly useful. As to be expected, the DM is the final arbiter of when someone can or cannot hide. But the feature is clearly intended to expand the normal options, and nothing in how the feature is written makes it as remotely as restrictive as you claim it is. That's just your, or your DM's interpretation.
Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
you are willfully and deliberately ignoring this. And so, between that and your condescending tone I am going to vanish from this pointless conversation where you are rambling about homebrew.
[quote] Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. [bold] Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.[bold][quote]
look. Right there^
my claim is based on how it’s written. Yours is based on homebrew. Keep being obtuse and condescending. See how far that gets you in life. (Ignore feature/vanish)
as for the limiting field of vision... that’s 1 of 5 senses.
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For the last time, it's not homebrew. If it only worked how you describe, then it wouldn't be in the same paragraph. It would be on its own, as a stand-alone paragraph comprised of just one sentence.
If you want it to be more narrow, that's your business. But you don't get to tell other people they're wrong when plain English says otherwise.