@LeviRocks whether a ranger can use a focus is not certain. Though there is no section for a spellcasting focus in the ranger's Spellcasting feature, the general rules on spellcasting dont seem to indicate that there needs to be such a section:
A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, "Equipment") in place of the components specified for a spell. - PHB, pg 203, Components
Basically, the inclusion of a focus in the Druid's Spellcasting seems to suggest that it must be listed to be used by a class, but the Spellcasting rules dont say anything about being limited by class, suggesting that anyone can use a focus.
@IamSposta thanks for the correction. I took another look at the rules, and you are right.
It is weird though that you can cast Material spells without acquiring a component pouch, since that means you basically have to make one yourself in order to hold the materials needed for such spells.
You can just keep the stuff in your pockets. What the component pouch allows you to do is not have to keep perpetually using your action to pull out the components and then have to wait until next turn to actually cast. It works a lot like a Quiver or Boltcase. You can have 20 arrows and no quiver, what the quiver allows you to do is pull the arrow as part of the same action to fire the bow. Without a quiver, technically RAW, you would have to keep spending an action to draw an arrow, wait a turn to shoot it, next turn draw another, next turn shoot it.... No “container” no free drawing of ammo.
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon (see "Improvised Weapons" later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.
@IamSposta the rules on ammunition could make sense here, but they arent tied to spellcasting, so arent RAW applicable.
As far as using your action, the rules on page 190 of the PHB tell us:
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action.
Further, there are a couple of relevant examples from the Interacting with objects note: "withdraw a potion from your backpack", "fish a few coins from your belt pouch".
So, you could access your spell components for free without a component pouch at least once during your turn.
Basically, there is a disconnect in the rules on spellcasting: is drawing components like drawing ammunition, and if yes, why is that not stated? What is the purpose of a component pouch if nothing says that it allows easier or faster access to material components? Is the intention that anyone can use a focus, or only those classes which mention one in their Spellcasting feature, and if only those ones, why is that not stated?
If the Spell requires two components, you could only draw one for free each turn. For example, Acid Arrow has two components, the Component Pouch replaces both of those so you only need to “interact” with one item instead of two.
Also, say you don’t have a Component Pouch and cast Hold Person so you use your free item interaction to pull out your iron bar and cast the spell. Next turn you want to cast Color Spray, you could use your free item interaction to put away your iron bar, and then your action to pull out your colored sand and then wait until next turn to cast the spell. Or you could drop your iron bar on the ground, use your free item interaction to pull out your colored sand and cast the spell this turn, but then you have to go back for your iron bar or replace it before you can cast Hold Person again. If everything is in a component pouch, you just keep waving it around and never need to worry about it. You can put it on a lanyard so if you “drop” it to pull out something else, it stays around your neck.
Also, say you don’t have a Component Pouch and cast Hold Person so you use your free item interaction to pull out your iron bar and cast the spell. Next turn you want to cast Color Spray, you could use your free item interaction to put away your iron bar, and then your action to pull out your colored sand and then wait until next turn to cast the spell. Or you could drop your iron bar on the ground, use your free item interaction to pull out your colored sand and cast the spell this turn, but then you have to go back for your iron bar or replace it before you can cast Hold Person again. If everything is in a component pouch, you just keep waving it around and never need to worry about it. You can put it on a lanyard so if you “drop” it to pull out something else, it stays around your neck.
wait you can put away and pull out an object with a single object interaction? what about putting away and drawing a weapon?
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Nope. You can drop a weapon for free. Putting one away or drawing one takes either a free item interaction, or if you’ve already used your 1 free interaction for the turn it takes a full action.
@LeviRocks whether a ranger can use a focus is not certain. Though there is no section for a spellcasting focus in the ranger's Spellcasting feature, the general rules on spellcasting dont seem to indicate that there needs to be such a section:
A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, "Equipment") in place of the components specified for a spell. - PHB, pg 203, Components
Basically, the inclusion of a focus in the Druid's Spellcasting seems to suggest that it must be listed to be used by a class, but the Spellcasting rules dont say anything about being limited by class, suggesting that anyone can use a focus.
A wizard can't use a Druidic focus as their spellcasting focus. That section you quoted proves my point. Any character can use a component pouch in place of material components that have no cost and aren't consumed.
A ranger can use a component pouch, but RAW they can't use an arcane or druidic focus, or holy symbol.
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@IamSposta the rules on ammunition could make sense here, but they arent tied to spellcasting, so arent RAW applicable.
As far as using your action, the rules on page 190 of the PHB tell us:
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action.
Further, there are a couple of relevant examples from the Interacting with objects note: "withdraw a potion from your backpack", "fish a few coins from your belt pouch".
So, you could access your spell components for free without a component pouch at least once during your turn.
Basically, there is a disconnect in the rules on spellcasting: is drawing components like drawing ammunition, and if yes, why is that not stated? What is the purpose of a component pouch if nothing says that it allows easier or faster access to material components? Is the intention that anyone can use a focus, or only those classes which mention one in their Spellcasting feature, and if only those ones, why is that not stated?
Rangers can definitely /not/ use a spell casting focus. If they could, a list of approved focuses would be listed in the ranger class. To further back that up, in the class options UA, they added the following for rangers:
Spellcasting Focus 2nd-level ranger feature (enhances Spellcasting) You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your ranger spells. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” of the Player’s Handbook for a list of things that count as druidic focuses.
That would not be an "enhancement" for rangers if they could already use a druid focus for spellcasting.
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This... Currently a lvl 14 Gloomstalker in Avernus. I pray I die die in every right. I am so bored it's s painful, and I haven't gotten an ability at level up that I was even a little excited about since I got my 2nd attack at 5th.
You weren't excited to get Greater Invisibility last level?
I think the cause to the Ranger problems was in the initial design during the PHB. It appears that whoever designed the base class assumed that the subclasses were going to carry all the narrative and mechanical power. The subclass designer looks like they saw the title of the base Ranger abilities without seeing what they did and saw that you were picking all your Favored Enemies and Terrains in the base class, so made their subclasses bland.
Ultimately, the designers realized this for XGtE and the UAs, and have been boosting the subclasses quite a bit, almost assuming that your Favored Enemy option is just a ribbon. When a player designs a Ranger, they really are focused on what/where they hunt and survive. That is a big part of the identity of the character usually, and they want to feel the weight of their option (this is also why Land sometimes isn't seen as that good too for Druids). The problem is that there is no weight. You select your choices but outside of generic boosts to a few skills and some waiving of travel requirements, you don't feel like your Desert Ranger is different than the Swamp Ranger. You don't feel like your Giant Hunter is much different than your Undead Hunter. The player pumps up the concept in their head that they are going to be specialized in a certain way, and realize that they really don't get anything to help fight Dragons from Favored Enemy. Their subclass is what is carrying the weight and then they are reassessing who their character is by then (oh maybe a Monster Slayer etc).
I think the cause to the Ranger problems was in the initial design during the PHB. It appears that whoever designed the base class assumed that the subclasses were going to carry all the narrative and mechanical power. The subclass designer looks like they saw the title of the base Ranger abilities without seeing what they did and saw that you were picking all your Favored Enemies and Terrains in the base class, so made their subclasses bland.
Ultimately, the designers realized this for XGtE and the UAs, and have been boosting the subclasses quite a bit, almost assuming that your Favored Enemy option is just a ribbon. When a player designs a Ranger, they really are focused on what/where they hunt and survive. That is a big part of the identity of the character usually, and they want to feel the weight of their option (this is also why Land sometimes isn't seen as that good too for Druids). The problem is that there is no weight. You select your choices but outside of generic boosts to a few skills and some waiving of travel requirements, you don't feel like your Desert Ranger is different than the Swamp Ranger. You don't feel like your Giant Hunter is much different than your Undead Hunter. The player pumps up the concept in their head that they are going to be specialized in a certain way, and realize that they really don't get anything to help fight Dragons from Favored Enemy. Their subclass is what is carrying the weight and then they are reassessing who their character is by then (oh maybe a Monster Slayer etc).
to be fair at least with the hunter archetype the hunters prey feature gives you a benefit that really lets you specialize in what kind of favoured enemy you are good at fighting, but yeah that is a small excuse.
I dont think it is a good idea to make favoured enemy an combat abillity, but perhaps we can give it a few more features, for instance in my seven page long homebrew ranger fix i made it so that an ranger can locate the lair of their favoured enemy by looking at the nearby regional effects (this thicket is so overgrown, so there must be an green dragon who lairs three clicks north) and let them sometimes see through the false appearance trait (okay that chest over there is not a chest, be on you guard), to at least make them feel more good at tracking their favoured enemies
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This... Currently a lvl 14 Gloomstalker in Avernus. I pray I die die in every right. I am so bored it's s painful, and I haven't gotten an ability at level up that I was even a little excited about since I got my 2nd attack at 5th.
Wait, what? Extra languages, cool spells, bonus action Hide, negating enemy darkvision, re-rolling missed strikes, none of those is something that gets you excited? :P
This... Currently a lvl 14 Gloomstalker in Avernus. I pray I die die in every right. I am so bored it's s painful, and I haven't gotten an ability at level up that I was even a little excited about since I got my 2nd attack at 5th.
Wait, what? Extra languages, cool spells, bonus action Hide, negating enemy darkvision, re-rolling missed strikes, none of those is something that gets you excited? :P
His post somehow missed my post he quoted (i got it in my notifications). I will rewrite that to give some context:
«They are very very good up til level 5 when they get good hp, two attacks, second level spells and a lot of abilities (gloomstalker stands out as the best subclass).
problem is that after this point they basically dont gain anything. Spells get lackluster, no more attacks, no powerful abilities etc.
in other words, they are supergood at low level, and continue to be supergood if multiclassed after level 5. Personal pick is rogue after lv5 for maximum synergy, and staying true to concept. Basically the true ranger 20 is a ranger 5/ rogue15 :)»
the point is that the ranger is massively frontloaded. Gloomstalkee hide is crazygood, but at level 3. Bonus action hide cN be fixed with two levels of rogue which also grants sneak attack ++. I cannot find any reason to play ranger above lv5, then I multiclass i to something else, and due to extra attacks not stacking - likely rogue or a full caster.
Just wanted to say, my brother is playing a ranger with the class variants and is level two. The rest of the party consists of: half orc barb, high elf bard, yordle druid circle of dreams (halfling druid). My brother does about the same amount of damage as the barb, if not more. Saying that they can't do much damage is a lie, though it takes some thinking about to deal enough damage in the turn. To see how good they are at higher levels is something that will happen soon. Just to say.
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That's at level 2, before most class features start happening so the classes tend to be much closer together in performance. At level five or ten, things will likely be different. And without knowing what each character's stats and equipment are, just saying that their damage is about the same doesn't tell us much- that one particular barbarian might have low stats or a less-than-optimized weapon selection compared to the ranger.
This... Currently a lvl 14 Gloomstalker in Avernus. I pray I die die in every right. I am so bored it's s painful, and I haven't gotten an ability at level up that I was even a little excited about since I got my 2nd attack at 5th.
Wait, what? Extra languages, cool spells, bonus action Hide, negating enemy darkvision, re-rolling missed strikes, none of those is something that gets you excited? :P
His post somehow missed my post he quoted (i got it in my notifications). I will rewrite that to give some context:
«They are very very good up til level 5 when they get good hp, two attacks, second level spells and a lot of abilities (gloomstalker stands out as the best subclass).
problem is that after this point they basically dont gain anything. Spells get lackluster, no more attacks, no powerful abilities etc.
in other words, they are supergood at low level, and continue to be supergood if multiclassed after level 5. Personal pick is rogue after lv5 for maximum synergy, and staying true to concept. Basically the true ranger 20 is a ranger 5/ rogue15 :)»
the point is that the ranger is massively frontloaded. Gloomstalkee hide is crazy good, but at level 3. Bonus action hide can be fixed with two levels of rogue which also grants sneak attack ++. I cannot find any reason to play ranger above lv5, then I multiclass i to something else, and due to extra attacks not stacking - likely rogue or a full caster.
well i'd personally say that the 11th level features are pretty good, especially hunter and horizon walker where they are arguably better than the fighters third attack, or at least on-par with it, and that the 9th level spells you get like conjure animals (it should really be renamed to "break lesser action economy"), conjure barrage, plant growth for that sweet crowd control and so on, and the 8th level feature is nice becuase you get it at the same time as you get your abillity score increase. 6th level however still sucks a lot of orbs
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
to be fair at least with the hunter archetype the hunters prey feature gives you a benefit that really lets you specialize in what kind of favoured enemy you are good at fighting, but yeah that is a small excuse.
I dont think it is a good idea to make favoured enemy an combat abillity, but perhaps we can give it a few more features, for instance in my seven page long homebrew ranger fix i made it so that an ranger can locate the lair of their favoured enemy by looking at the nearby regional effects (this thicket is so overgrown, so there must be an green dragon who lairs three clicks north) and let them sometimes see through the false appearance trait (okay that chest over there is not a chest, be on you guard), to at least make them feel more good at tracking their favoured enemies
If we could go back in time and change the base design of the Ranger, the smarter thing to have done would have been to remove some of the features out of the base class and tie themes currently found in the base class into more subclasses. Instead of having Favored Enemy + Hunter/Beastmaster, it would have been smarter for the base class to have the bare essentials for a Ranger (better survival/nature) and then roll the abilities into subclasses. If we had a subclass for hunting giants/dragons, undead, humanoids etc with spells, tracking, ribbons, and combat abilities in the PHB I don't think we would have had the problems we see now.
Yes, it's bad that it depends on the subclasses to "fix" the ranger. That means that the 2 original subclasses from the PHB will always be left behind by pure damage dealing and abilities compared to newer subclasses (gloomstalker, fey wanderer, horizon walker).
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Yes, it's bad that it depends on the subclasses to "fix" the ranger. That means that the 2 original subclasses from the PHB will always be left behind by pure damage dealing and abilities compared to newer subclasses (gloomstalker, fey wanderer, horizon walker).
i mean for the most part the hunter is still on par if not out-doing the other subclasses in DPS, with horizon walker being the only subclass with arguably better damage potential, and in terms of who can throw the biggest numbers at the baddies beast master still holds up relatively well, even if its poor saves and low hit points give it the proximate durability of an egg. If there are three baddies horizon walker can make three attacks, same with hunter ranger, and both can ether add an extra d8 to one of their attacks or for the hunter you also have two other features that give an slightly situational extra attack that can be triggered every turn at least somewhat reliably depending on what you are fighting, and then fey wanderer sacrifices reliable dps for some fantastic burst damage while charming people
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@LeviRocks whether a ranger can use a focus is not certain. Though there is no section for a spellcasting focus in the ranger's Spellcasting feature, the general rules on spellcasting dont seem to indicate that there needs to be such a section:
Basically, the inclusion of a focus in the Druid's Spellcasting seems to suggest that it must be listed to be used by a class, but the Spellcasting rules dont say anything about being limited by class, suggesting that anyone can use a focus.
You can just keep the stuff in your pockets. What the component pouch allows you to do is not have to keep perpetually using your action to pull out the components and then have to wait until next turn to actually cast. It works a lot like a Quiver or Boltcase. You can have 20 arrows and no quiver, what the quiver allows you to do is pull the arrow as part of the same action to fire the bow. Without a quiver, technically RAW, you would have to keep spending an action to draw an arrow, wait a turn to shoot it, next turn draw another, next turn shoot it.... No “container” no free drawing of ammo.
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@IamSposta the rules on ammunition could make sense here, but they arent tied to spellcasting, so arent RAW applicable.
As far as using your action, the rules on page 190 of the PHB tell us:
Further, there are a couple of relevant examples from the Interacting with objects note: "withdraw a potion from your backpack", "fish a few coins from your belt pouch".
So, you could access your spell components for free without a component pouch at least once during your turn.
Basically, there is a disconnect in the rules on spellcasting: is drawing components like drawing ammunition, and if yes, why is that not stated? What is the purpose of a component pouch if nothing says that it allows easier or faster access to material components? Is the intention that anyone can use a focus, or only those classes which mention one in their Spellcasting feature, and if only those ones, why is that not stated?
If the Spell requires two components, you could only draw one for free each turn. For example, Acid Arrow has two components, the Component Pouch replaces both of those so you only need to “interact” with one item instead of two.
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Also, say you don’t have a Component Pouch and cast Hold Person so you use your free item interaction to pull out your iron bar and cast the spell. Next turn you want to cast Color Spray, you could use your free item interaction to put away your iron bar, and then your action to pull out your colored sand and then wait until next turn to cast the spell. Or you could drop your iron bar on the ground, use your free item interaction to pull out your colored sand and cast the spell this turn, but then you have to go back for your iron bar or replace it before you can cast Hold Person again. If everything is in a component pouch, you just keep waving it around and never need to worry about it. You can put it on a lanyard so if you “drop” it to pull out something else, it stays around your neck.
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wait you can put away and pull out an object with a single object interaction? what about putting away and drawing a weapon?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Nope. You can drop a weapon for free. Putting one away or drawing one takes either a free item interaction, or if you’ve already used your 1 free interaction for the turn it takes a full action.
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A wizard can't use a Druidic focus as their spellcasting focus. That section you quoted proves my point. Any character can use a component pouch in place of material components that have no cost and aren't consumed.
A ranger can use a component pouch, but RAW they can't use an arcane or druidic focus, or holy symbol.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Rangers can definitely /not/ use a spell casting focus. If they could, a list of approved focuses would be listed in the ranger class. To further back that up, in the class options UA, they added the following for rangers:
Spellcasting Focus
2nd-level ranger feature (enhances Spellcasting)
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your ranger spells. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” of the Player’s Handbook for a list of things that count as druidic focuses.
That would not be an "enhancement" for rangers if they could already use a druid focus for spellcasting.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
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You weren't excited to get Greater Invisibility last level?
I think the cause to the Ranger problems was in the initial design during the PHB. It appears that whoever designed the base class assumed that the subclasses were going to carry all the narrative and mechanical power. The subclass designer looks like they saw the title of the base Ranger abilities without seeing what they did and saw that you were picking all your Favored Enemies and Terrains in the base class, so made their subclasses bland.
Ultimately, the designers realized this for XGtE and the UAs, and have been boosting the subclasses quite a bit, almost assuming that your Favored Enemy option is just a ribbon. When a player designs a Ranger, they really are focused on what/where they hunt and survive. That is a big part of the identity of the character usually, and they want to feel the weight of their option (this is also why Land sometimes isn't seen as that good too for Druids). The problem is that there is no weight. You select your choices but outside of generic boosts to a few skills and some waiving of travel requirements, you don't feel like your Desert Ranger is different than the Swamp Ranger. You don't feel like your Giant Hunter is much different than your Undead Hunter. The player pumps up the concept in their head that they are going to be specialized in a certain way, and realize that they really don't get anything to help fight Dragons from Favored Enemy. Their subclass is what is carrying the weight and then they are reassessing who their character is by then (oh maybe a Monster Slayer etc).
to be fair at least with the hunter archetype the hunters prey feature gives you a benefit that really lets you specialize in what kind of favoured enemy you are good at fighting, but yeah that is a small excuse.
I dont think it is a good idea to make favoured enemy an combat abillity, but perhaps we can give it a few more features, for instance in my seven page long homebrew ranger fix i made it so that an ranger can locate the lair of their favoured enemy by looking at the nearby regional effects (this thicket is so overgrown, so there must be an green dragon who lairs three clicks north) and let them sometimes see through the false appearance trait (okay that chest over there is not a chest, be on you guard), to at least make them feel more good at tracking their favoured enemies
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Wait, what? Extra languages, cool spells, bonus action Hide, negating enemy darkvision, re-rolling missed strikes, none of those is something that gets you excited? :P
His post somehow missed my post he quoted (i got it in my notifications). I will rewrite that to give some context:
«They are very very good up til level 5 when they get good hp, two attacks, second level spells and a lot of abilities (gloomstalker stands out as the best subclass).
problem is that after this point they basically dont gain anything. Spells get lackluster, no more attacks, no powerful abilities etc.
in other words, they are supergood at low level, and continue to be supergood if multiclassed after level 5. Personal pick is rogue after lv5 for maximum synergy, and staying true to concept. Basically the true ranger 20 is a ranger 5/ rogue15 :)»
the point is that the ranger is massively frontloaded. Gloomstalkee hide is crazygood, but at level 3. Bonus action hide cN be fixed with two levels of rogue which also grants sneak attack ++. I cannot find any reason to play ranger above lv5, then I multiclass i to something else, and due to extra attacks not stacking - likely rogue or a full caster.
Just wanted to say, my brother is playing a ranger with the class variants and is level two. The rest of the party consists of: half orc barb, high elf bard, yordle druid circle of dreams (halfling druid). My brother does about the same amount of damage as the barb, if not more. Saying that they can't do much damage is a lie, though it takes some thinking about to deal enough damage in the turn. To see how good they are at higher levels is something that will happen soon. Just to say.
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That's at level 2, before most class features start happening so the classes tend to be much closer together in performance. At level five or ten, things will likely be different. And without knowing what each character's stats and equipment are, just saying that their damage is about the same doesn't tell us much- that one particular barbarian might have low stats or a less-than-optimized weapon selection compared to the ranger.
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well i'd personally say that the 11th level features are pretty good, especially hunter and horizon walker where they are arguably better than the fighters third attack, or at least on-par with it, and that the 9th level spells you get like conjure animals (it should really be renamed to "break lesser action economy"), conjure barrage, plant growth for that sweet crowd control and so on, and the 8th level feature is nice becuase you get it at the same time as you get your abillity score increase. 6th level however still sucks a lot of orbs
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If we could go back in time and change the base design of the Ranger, the smarter thing to have done would have been to remove some of the features out of the base class and tie themes currently found in the base class into more subclasses. Instead of having Favored Enemy + Hunter/Beastmaster, it would have been smarter for the base class to have the bare essentials for a Ranger (better survival/nature) and then roll the abilities into subclasses. If we had a subclass for hunting giants/dragons, undead, humanoids etc with spells, tracking, ribbons, and combat abilities in the PHB I don't think we would have had the problems we see now.
Yes, it's bad that it depends on the subclasses to "fix" the ranger. That means that the 2 original subclasses from the PHB will always be left behind by pure damage dealing and abilities compared to newer subclasses (gloomstalker, fey wanderer, horizon walker).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
i mean for the most part the hunter is still on par if not out-doing the other subclasses in DPS, with horizon walker being the only subclass with arguably better damage potential, and in terms of who can throw the biggest numbers at the baddies beast master still holds up relatively well, even if its poor saves and low hit points give it the proximate durability of an egg. If there are three baddies horizon walker can make three attacks, same with hunter ranger, and both can ether add an extra d8 to one of their attacks or for the hunter you also have two other features that give an slightly situational extra attack that can be triggered every turn at least somewhat reliably depending on what you are fighting, and then fey wanderer sacrifices reliable dps for some fantastic burst damage while charming people
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes