I love tactical combat and creative strategies - but I also want that to be rewarded. If sneak attack was twice as effective but three times harder to achieve I would exclusively play rogue
Truth is you can probably get sneak attack every round no problem - but the hit and run sneaky big damage back stab vibe doesn’t actually translate into mechanics… as you don’t hit hard… which is what I wanted to double check with people as whenever a rogue has attacked at my table I’ve found it just… disappointing
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
I love tactical combat and creative strategies - but I also want that to be rewarded. If sneak attack was twice as effective but three times harder to achieve I would exclusively play rogue
Truth is you can probably get sneak attack every round no problem - but the hit and run sneaky big damage back stab vibe doesn’t actually translate into mechanics… as you don’t hit hard… which is what I wanted to double check with people as whenever a rogue has attacked at my table I’ve found it just… disappointing
You DO hit hard. Just that you hit hard once. A fighter needs multiple attacks and feats to hit hard. A rogue just needs 1 attack. The downside is that missing is worse for a rogue, and other martials get more chances to hit and therefore do more damage in the end.
Have you actually played the class? Was it just disappointing for you as an observer, unconnected to how the rogue player felt? Maybe it's because you play with a bunch of multiclass monsters playing hexadins and other OP builds and so it looks lackluster by comparison because that's all you're used to?
For me I think its all about sharpshooter and great weapon fighter. If you remove those two feats then most martial classes would fall in line close to rogue.
Rogue hits plenty hard, and is the design baseline for martial classes. But, if you want to break the design curve you need to optimize around GWF and SS and that doesn't work well with rogue. The real question is can you get a rogue to match an optimized GWF or SS. The answer to that is no.
I dunno; my Arcane Trickster in our level 4 game is doing just fine with damage. Since nobody has gotten their second attack, the rogue's Sneak Attack is one of the best damage dealing things our group can do. Depends on your game. Our table has a great deal of utility and RP needs as well. So people are mindful that if you go too far optimizing DPR at the expense of being useful in other aspects, you will find chunks of sessions where you are lagging.
Comparatively to other classes, the Rogue is just fine. They aren't meant to be frontline combatants. What I've learned right away is that if you only get one chance to connect with that Sneak Attack, you look to get advantage, bonuses to hit, or seek party buffs so that you make the most of that one roll.
GWF and Sharpshooter don't really work with a rogue (and the risk to hit on their sneak attack on sharpshooter possibly makes it inadvisable to begin with). They don't get extra attack let alone 3 attacks. Green flame blade or booming blade won't close that gap.
Greed flame blade scales pretty well becuase it uses cantrip scaling. A 17th level green flame blade sneak attack is doing 4d8+9d6+5 to one target and 3d8+intelligence to asecond.
That is pretty good damage. That is more base damage than say a raging Barbarian swinging a Greatsword (4d6+22).
Sure a Barbarian has subclasses and feats that can use to boost that, but then so does a Rogue.
Also a lot of the comparisons use GWM+PAM. PAM ties you to only a few weapons and only 2 if you want to use reach. That is fine at level 5 but not so great when everyone in the party has a random +2 weapons, and a few are sporting sunblades or vorpals but your PAM guy is still swinging a nonmagic glaive because you did not find a good magic weapon that suits him. Certainly a Rogue suffers from this a little bit, in that not all weapons are usable with sneak. But there are a lot more weapons he can use effectively and some of them like daggers, shortswords and bows are the most common magic weapons found.
In all the 5E official published adventures to date how many magic weapons are there that work with PAM (not including staffs that martials can't use)? I am guessing it is less than 3 and probably not any glaives or Halberds. On the other hand we have a 5th level party playing a published adventure right now and we have found a +2 Short Sword, a Sunblade and a +1 dagger, all finesse weapons. Our Tank has a flaming mace (none of the dex guys wanted it) and if he was PAM it would not be useful at all or at least a lot less optimal.
After some consideration of the actual math I think you will find (not counting the single round of action surge) that a very basic rogue even without advantage is within 10 or so points of damage of your PAM, GWF, monster. I did my math against Orcus with an AC of 20. The -5 to hit is quite important. I did the math with +2 magic weapons. The +3 previously suggested will increase the spread some but not a lot.
Now if you build with an arcane trickster and strap on booming blade, sentinel, and warcaster you can probably start reasonably assuming extra sneaks every few rounds that make up the difference. If you do it as a level 20 build I recommend brace as well via martial adept. If you can manage to get proficiency for whip via a Tasha's racial option or some other elicit means you should be able to manage a rapier whip overlapping areas of opp attack. The arcane trickster could theoretically do greater invisibility as well. Now Orcus has true sight which makes this scenario and greater invisibility not quite work, but you get where this is going in a more general sense.
Elf can get you booming blade as well so really any rogue subclass can pull this off.
Now when I did the math for a sharpshooter fighter build its not as nice to the rogue. Because of archery fighting style the damage loss caused by the -5 to hit is much less and subsequently the gap in damage is much larger. Probably enough that reaction sneaks aren't going to make up the difference.
I am not going to run the math for you. Feel free just factor in the AC's and don't just add up damage without factoring in the -5 to hit. Given the rogue superiority to most other martial classes in skills, damage reduction (evasion, uncanny dodge), and the addition of wisdom saving throws at 15 this is a reasonable martial chassis with many other bases covered. I am sorry I said earlier that it couldn't get there. I was lazy and hadn't done the math.
Edit. The trickiest part of the math that got me the first time was calculating the sneak damage per round. I was attacking twice but only treating it like one roll. If you attack twice your probability of getting your sneak is more like if you have advantage. So instead of 7 or above to hit being 70%, your sneak is actually two rolls so its 91%. So you have .91*35 damage from your sneak while the fighter is eating a 45% to hit on each of his great weapon fighter attacks. This math is what shrinks the difference.
A few thoughts from the peanut gallery. 1) rogues are actually a great class, they don’t get multiple attacks but they do get opportunity attacks that trigger sneak attack damage. They also have the best skill base, rangers and bards are not too far behind but they are behind. 2) like everyone, rogues can get 2 attacks even at L1 via two weapon fighting. No they don’t get the benefits of a fighting style but they do get 2 attacks either one of which can trigger your primary sneak attack. 3) the problems with GWF/PAM are compounded in most cases by players planning out entire careers before playing - and then expecting DMs to “ make it happen”. Just as in real life you can plan but “ man proposes, god disposes” if you want a magic halberd design it and have it made there are rules in game for that just talk to your DM. 4) if all you are interested in is massive damage play a fighter/barbarian/Paladin but expect to be useless except in combat. If you want to be useful all the time try the other casters or othe4 martials and gishes.
Thank you everyone that is really helpful. Yes, I have played a Rogue at the table but only covering for absences from other party members for 3-4 sessions or so.
A little note here is that GWM and SS are not the only ways to optimise or damage the only significant contribution to combat. Most players I’ve played with are not bothered about optimising their character but they do pause to consider their contribution when outshined which is why i ask. It seems the classic melee dex solution of leaning on magic is needed but that makes a lot of classes too complex for a lot of players to get behind.
I think my solution will be to recommend poisons to players and work around a homebrew magic item as DM i think
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
In general the difference in damage doesn't become a permanent issue until 11th/12th level when the 3rd attack comes online and the number of feats a fighter gets starts to outdistance the rogue's ability to compensate.
Poison is a good way to work with it. I also recommend dropping magic daggers on the rogue earlier. In general a magic dagger should be the most common magical weapon next to magic long swords as they are broadly applicable. Moreover if you are a noble in a fantasy universe you probably have had the court wizard make you a magic dagger as a last line of defense. Same with magic studded leather.
Multiclass is better in damage. But it's tight, with maybe ~10 more damage a turn levels 8-12 for most martials, with an extra bonus to them for crits, for what that's worth.
Rogues get a NUTS progression.There's an extra ASI at level 10, ffs. If you can't work with that then I despair of ya. :)
Reliable Talent is frankly godly. No, seriously. What would an actual god in 5e give for that?
BLIND SENSE? Yeah. Bugger off.
If you're counting beans, Uncanny Dodge at 5 might have saved you - the other character is dead.
Yes: you can build a better multiclass on paper, but how many levels did you miss that power, and how dead are you?
***(So, I rarely come close to min-max, but I assume that if you're asking then it's the most brutal game ever, and death is a real prospect).***
Did you get an extra round of combat in a 5-round battle because you used Uncanny Dodge 5 times? Damage redeemed. Were you able to ignore cover because of the ASI and hit an extra shot or two? Damage redeemed. Do you get to hide and get the advantage to hit or even to land a Sharpshooter all day long? *Damage redeemed*.
Nope. It's still not quite the goods. But the utility is worth something - and that 'something' you lose is a low level of damage lost, if you play it smart.
I dunno; my Arcane Trickster in our level 4 game is doing just fine with damage. Since nobody has gotten their second attack, the rogue's Sneak Attack is one of the best damage dealing things our group can do. Depends on your game. Our table has a great deal of utility and RP needs as well. So people are mindful that if you go too far optimizing DPR at the expense of being useful in other aspects, you will find chunks of sessions where you are lagging.
Comparatively to other classes, the Rogue is just fine. They aren't meant to be frontline combatants. What I've learned right away is that if you only get one chance to connect with that Sneak Attack, you look to get advantage, bonuses to hit, or seek party buffs so that you make the most of that one roll.
An Arcane Trickster with G-FB (or BB) will consistently put up solid numbers, especially in higher tiers of play. Throwing around 6d6+3d8+Dex mod on your turn per hit (with a rapier) and a potential for another 3d8 as either secondary or second target damage is pretty sweet for 11th level, and with something like Sentinel to help fish for more Sneak Attacks to drop another 6d6+1d8+Dex mod (again, rapier), that’s a potential 12d6+7d8+2Dex mod/Round. With an 18 Dex that’s an average potential DPR of 81.5…. That ain’t nothin.’
, and with something like Sentinel to help fish for more Sneak Attacks to drop another 6d6+1d8+Dex mod (again, rapier)
A Rogue that is using Sentinel is in melee range and is not using uncanny dodge. At that level something like a horned devil is dealing out 40DPR
Yeah, and it’s only got 178HP. If the Rogue is dealing 81.5 DPR it can kill that devil in 2 rounds with a little luck all by itself. And (heavens to mergatroid) faster with the rest of the party involved too. (😱 There are other PCs?!? It’s not just a rogue all by itself?!?)
, and with something like Sentinel to help fish for more Sneak Attacks to drop another 6d6+1d8+Dex mod (again, rapier)
A Rogue that is using Sentinel is in melee range and is not using uncanny dodge. At that level something like a horned devil is dealing out 40DPR
Yeah, and it’s only got 178HP. If the Rogue is dealing 81.5 DPR it can kill that devil in 2 rounds with a little luck all by itself. And (heavens to mergatroid) faster with the rest of the party involved too. (😱
Sure, but a Rogue using Sentinel is in melee range, is a very attractive target (compared to the guy in plate or the Raginig barbarian) and will generally not last 2 rounds against a horned devil without using uncanny dodge. And at 11th level that Devil is not by himself either, there are probably 3 or 4 of them unless it is designed to be an easy encounter.
The numbers tell the story:
Against an 11th level Rogue with a 17AC and 20 dexterity is going to take on average 70 damage in 2 turns of combat against a Horned devil if he does not have a reaction. With a 14 Constitution (which is really high for an AT) he will have a 32% chance of being at 0 hit points by the end of turn 2.
Making 2 booming blade Rapier action sneak attacks with advantage and 1 sentinel sneak attack during the same 2 turns he will deal on average 58 damage, meaning the horned devil has 120hps left. Using a magic rapier will boost it to 92 damage, still WAY, WAY below what you need to kill a horned devil.
If you use cunning action disengage instead of using steady aim your damage drops to 44 and you take 35 damage.
If you took piercer you could get another feat while still having a 20 dex and use cunning action and don't let him attack you and your damage would be 34 while you would take 0.
That of course assumes the Horned Devil does not just stand back and hurl fire at the Rogue waiting to use sentinel.
There are other PCs?!? It’s not just a rogue all by itself?!?
At 11th level there is more than 1 horned devil too.
Okay, say you're a level 17 Assassin that suprises a target the the Grave Cleric makes vulnrable.
you stab them with your... +3 dagger? so you're doing 2d4+8 18d6, which on a failed Con save is doubled and due to the cleric is doubled again...
76x2x2= 304dmg (a perfect storm, which begs the question of how the cleric applied the vulnrability first)
A Fighter at lv17 could just sneak in and with a +3 polearm... 7 attacks for 7d10+126 (164.5) ...and they can do this twice... add in a hold person from said cleric and your blowing the Assassin out of the water. I get what you're saying about the bonus action disengage hide or dash but you just don't seem to have the bite to go with that hit and run... hence my confusion
A bit late, but something important to remember here is that letting the Rogue handle the target will leave the Fighter free to go harass an enemy that won't go down in one turn, which'll tie that enemy up in combat and keep it from going after the party's squishies. If the Fighter takes out the grave target, then that leaves the Rogue to go poke another enemy... but the difference is that the Rogue isn't nearly as good at taking a hit as the Fighter, and thus might not be able to stay close enough to threaten OAs.
, and with something like Sentinel to help fish for more Sneak Attacks to drop another 6d6+1d8+Dex mod (again, rapier)
A Rogue that is using Sentinel is in melee range and is not using uncanny dodge. At that level something like a horned devil is dealing out 40DPR
Yeah, and it’s only got 178HP. If the Rogue is dealing 81.5 DPR it can kill that devil in 2 rounds with a little luck all by itself. And (heavens to mergatroid) faster with the rest of the party involved too. (😱
Sure, but a Rogue using Sentinel is in melee range, is a very attractive target (compared to the guy in plate or the Raginig barbarian) and will generally not last 2 rounds against a horned devil without using uncanny dodge. And at 11th level that Devil is not by himself either, there are probably 3 or 4 of them unless it is designed to be an easy encounter.
The numbers tell the story:
Against an 11th level Rogue with a 17AC and 20 dexterity is going to take on average 70 damage in 2 turns of combat against a Horned devil if he does not have a reaction. With a 14 Constitution (which is really high for an AT) he will have a 32% chance of being at 0 hit points by the end of turn 2.
Making 2 booming blade Rapier action sneak attacks with advantage and 1 sentinel sneak attack during the same 2 turns he will deal on average 58 damage, meaning the horned devil has 120hps left. Using a magic rapier will boost it to 92 damage, still WAY, WAY below what you need to kill a horned devil.
If you use cunning action disengage instead of using steady aim your damage drops to 44 and you take 35 damage.
If you took piercer you could get another feat while still having a 20 dex and use cunning action and don't let him attack you and your damage would be 34 while you would take 0.
That of course assumes the Horned Devil does not just stand back and hurl fire at the Rogue waiting to use sentinel.
There are other PCs?!? It’s not just a rogue all by itself?!?
At 11th level there is more than 1 horned devil too.
So, your reasoning for saying they suck at DPR is that they should use half their action economy to not be in range to attack…. That’s pretty telling right there. And if they don’t have a magic weapon, even a +1 Dagger by 11th level then something is horribly wrong. And dropping from a rapier to a dagger drops average DPR from 81.5 to 77.5. Still more than half a bone Devil in a single round.
And I’m not saying play stupid, if they attack you then you Uncannily Dodge instead. But with positioning and coordination it is possible to consistently proc out-of-turn Sneak Attacks. Sentinel is just one of them. But it takes teamwork. Like the Paladin using Compelled Duel at times, etc. teamwork.
So, your reasoning for saying they suck at DPR is that they should use half their action economy to not be in range to attack…. That’s pretty telling right there. And if they don’t have a magic weapon, even a +1 Dagger by 11th level then something is horribly wrong. And dropping from a rapier to a dagger drops average DPR from 81.5 to 77.5. Still more than half a bone Devil in a single round.
I never said they suck at DPR and I was talking about a Horned Devil, a Bone Devil is CR9 and quite a bit weaker.
That said your math is WAY wrong and your DPR number is off by almost double.
A 11th level Rogue with a 20Dex fighting an AC19 Bone Devil making 2 sneak attacks in one round (one with booming blade using action and one sneak attack using Sentinel reaction), both with a magic dagger, will do on average 39.1 DPR. That damgage includes chances of landing a crit.
On average it will take said Rogue 4 rounds to kill said Bone Devil, not 2 and that assumes he gets to use Sentinel every single round.
And keep in mind we are giving the Rogue Sneak attack, but the Bone Devil's sting can cause poisoned condition which also causes disadvantage on attacks and eliminates Sneak attack as an option.
And I’m not saying play stupid, if they attack you then you Uncannily Dodge instead.
You can not uncanny dodge if you use the Sentinel feat, that is the whole point and they get 3 attacks. Further you need to get in position and intentionally make yourself a target to have a chance to use the Sentinel Feat
Maybe I am off on the math, but an 11th rogue with a 20 dex has a +9 to hit meaning rolling a 10 or better to hit AC 19 or .55 prob. Using steady aim (which is ideal on a blade cantrip) that prob is .7975. Damage from the boom sneak is 1d4+6d6+2d8+5 (2.5+21+9+5 = 37.5), and then 1d4+6d6+5 (2.5+21+5 = 28.5) on the sentinel sneak attack. Or .7975 x 37.5 = 29.9; 28.5 x .55= 15.7 for a total of 45.6 dpr
that all assumes a +0 magic dagger. A +1 dagger moves that up to 50 dpr. None of that counts extra damage from crits or the movement based damage from boom.
Your number seems to be right for two standard attacks, no steady aim. Steady aim gets very interesting results and starts doing interesting things to dpr for a melee based blade cantrip rogue. It takes the limitation of only one shot at sneak and makes the math more favorable.
Maybe I am off on the math, but an 11th rogue with a 20 dex has a +9 to hit meaning rolling a 10 or better to hit AC 19 or .55 prob. Using steady aim (which is ideal on a blade cantrip) that prob is .7975. Damage from the boom sneak is 1d4+6d6+2d8+5 (2.5+21+9+5 = 37.5), and then 1d4+6d6+5 (2.5+21+5 = 28.5) on the sentinel sneak attack. Or .7975 x 37.5 = 29.9; 28.5 x .55= 15.7 for a total of 45.6 dpr
If you use steady aim before booming blade the total including crits is 49.925 DPR (not counting movement damage) however that is not realistic because to use sentinel to attack you are going to have to move a lot, on the first turn almost certainly and then after than when either an enemy dies or your ally moves (or is moved). You also generally won't be able to use steady aim if the enemy triggers the movement damage, meaning these two (damage from moving and steady aim) are more or less exclusive.
Regardless, even at 50dpr it is still 3 rounds to kill a bone devil and 4 to kill a horned devil.
None of that counts extra damage from crits or the movement based damage from boom.
What I posted on several on several posts on here does account for crits
I love tactical combat and creative strategies - but I also want that to be rewarded. If sneak attack was twice as effective but three times harder to achieve I would exclusively play rogue
Truth is you can probably get sneak attack every round no problem - but the hit and run sneaky big damage back stab vibe doesn’t actually translate into mechanics… as you don’t hit hard… which is what I wanted to double check with people as whenever a rogue has attacked at my table I’ve found it just… disappointing
You DO hit hard. Just that you hit hard once. A fighter needs multiple attacks and feats to hit hard. A rogue just needs 1 attack. The downside is that missing is worse for a rogue, and other martials get more chances to hit and therefore do more damage in the end.
Have you actually played the class? Was it just disappointing for you as an observer, unconnected to how the rogue player felt? Maybe it's because you play with a bunch of multiclass monsters playing hexadins and other OP builds and so it looks lackluster by comparison because that's all you're used to?
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For me I think its all about sharpshooter and great weapon fighter. If you remove those two feats then most martial classes would fall in line close to rogue.
Rogue hits plenty hard, and is the design baseline for martial classes. But, if you want to break the design curve you need to optimize around GWF and SS and that doesn't work well with rogue. The real question is can you get a rogue to match an optimized GWF or SS. The answer to that is no.
I dunno; my Arcane Trickster in our level 4 game is doing just fine with damage. Since nobody has gotten their second attack, the rogue's Sneak Attack is one of the best damage dealing things our group can do. Depends on your game. Our table has a great deal of utility and RP needs as well. So people are mindful that if you go too far optimizing DPR at the expense of being useful in other aspects, you will find chunks of sessions where you are lagging.
Comparatively to other classes, the Rogue is just fine. They aren't meant to be frontline combatants. What I've learned right away is that if you only get one chance to connect with that Sneak Attack, you look to get advantage, bonuses to hit, or seek party buffs so that you make the most of that one roll.
Greed flame blade scales pretty well becuase it uses cantrip scaling. A 17th level green flame blade sneak attack is doing 4d8+9d6+5 to one target and 3d8+intelligence to asecond.
That is pretty good damage. That is more base damage than say a raging Barbarian swinging a Greatsword (4d6+22).
Sure a Barbarian has subclasses and feats that can use to boost that, but then so does a Rogue.
Also a lot of the comparisons use GWM+PAM. PAM ties you to only a few weapons and only 2 if you want to use reach. That is fine at level 5 but not so great when everyone in the party has a random +2 weapons, and a few are sporting sunblades or vorpals but your PAM guy is still swinging a nonmagic glaive because you did not find a good magic weapon that suits him. Certainly a Rogue suffers from this a little bit, in that not all weapons are usable with sneak. But there are a lot more weapons he can use effectively and some of them like daggers, shortswords and bows are the most common magic weapons found.
In all the 5E official published adventures to date how many magic weapons are there that work with PAM (not including staffs that martials can't use)? I am guessing it is less than 3 and probably not any glaives or Halberds. On the other hand we have a 5th level party playing a published adventure right now and we have found a +2 Short Sword, a Sunblade and a +1 dagger, all finesse weapons. Our Tank has a flaming mace (none of the dex guys wanted it) and if he was PAM it would not be useful at all or at least a lot less optimal.
After some consideration of the actual math I think you will find (not counting the single round of action surge) that a very basic rogue even without advantage is within 10 or so points of damage of your PAM, GWF, monster. I did my math against Orcus with an AC of 20. The -5 to hit is quite important. I did the math with +2 magic weapons. The +3 previously suggested will increase the spread some but not a lot.
Now if you build with an arcane trickster and strap on booming blade, sentinel, and warcaster you can probably start reasonably assuming extra sneaks every few rounds that make up the difference. If you do it as a level 20 build I recommend brace as well via martial adept. If you can manage to get proficiency for whip via a Tasha's racial option or some other elicit means you should be able to manage a rapier whip overlapping areas of opp attack. The arcane trickster could theoretically do greater invisibility as well. Now Orcus has true sight which makes this scenario and greater invisibility not quite work, but you get where this is going in a more general sense.
Elf can get you booming blade as well so really any rogue subclass can pull this off.
Now when I did the math for a sharpshooter fighter build its not as nice to the rogue. Because of archery fighting style the damage loss caused by the -5 to hit is much less and subsequently the gap in damage is much larger. Probably enough that reaction sneaks aren't going to make up the difference.
I am not going to run the math for you. Feel free just factor in the AC's and don't just add up damage without factoring in the -5 to hit. Given the rogue superiority to most other martial classes in skills, damage reduction (evasion, uncanny dodge), and the addition of wisdom saving throws at 15 this is a reasonable martial chassis with many other bases covered. I am sorry I said earlier that it couldn't get there. I was lazy and hadn't done the math.
Edit. The trickiest part of the math that got me the first time was calculating the sneak damage per round. I was attacking twice but only treating it like one roll. If you attack twice your probability of getting your sneak is more like if you have advantage. So instead of 7 or above to hit being 70%, your sneak is actually two rolls so its 91%. So you have .91*35 damage from your sneak while the fighter is eating a 45% to hit on each of his great weapon fighter attacks. This math is what shrinks the difference.
A few thoughts from the peanut gallery.
1) rogues are actually a great class, they don’t get multiple attacks but they do get opportunity attacks that trigger sneak attack damage. They also have the best skill base, rangers and bards are not too far behind but they are behind.
2) like everyone, rogues can get 2 attacks even at L1 via two weapon fighting. No they don’t get the benefits of a fighting style but they do get 2 attacks either one of which can trigger your primary sneak attack.
3) the problems with GWF/PAM are compounded in most cases by players planning out entire careers before playing - and then expecting DMs to “ make it happen”. Just as in real life you can plan but “ man proposes, god disposes” if you want a magic halberd design it and have it made there are rules in game for that just talk to your DM.
4) if all you are interested in is massive damage play a fighter/barbarian/Paladin but expect to be useless except in combat. If you want to be useful all the time try the other casters or othe4 martials and gishes.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Thank you everyone that is really helpful. Yes, I have played a Rogue at the table but only covering for absences from other party members for 3-4 sessions or so.
A little note here is that GWM and SS are not the only ways to optimise or damage the only significant contribution to combat. Most players I’ve played with are not bothered about optimising their character but they do pause to consider their contribution when outshined which is why i ask. It seems the classic melee dex solution of leaning on magic is needed but that makes a lot of classes too complex for a lot of players to get behind.
I think my solution will be to recommend poisons to players and work around a homebrew magic item as DM i think
In general the difference in damage doesn't become a permanent issue until 11th/12th level when the 3rd attack comes online and the number of feats a fighter gets starts to outdistance the rogue's ability to compensate.
Poison is a good way to work with it. I also recommend dropping magic daggers on the rogue earlier. In general a magic dagger should be the most common magical weapon next to magic long swords as they are broadly applicable. Moreover if you are a noble in a fantasy universe you probably have had the court wizard make you a magic dagger as a last line of defense. Same with magic studded leather.
Multiclass is better in damage. But it's tight, with maybe ~10 more damage a turn levels 8-12 for most martials, with an extra bonus to them for crits, for what that's worth.
Rogues get a NUTS progression.There's an extra ASI at level 10, ffs. If you can't work with that then I despair of ya. :)
Reliable Talent is frankly godly. No, seriously. What would an actual god in 5e give for that?
BLIND SENSE? Yeah. Bugger off.
If you're counting beans, Uncanny Dodge at 5 might have saved you - the other character is dead.
Yes: you can build a better multiclass on paper, but how many levels did you miss that power, and how dead are you?
***(So, I rarely come close to min-max, but I assume that if you're asking then it's the most brutal game ever, and death is a real prospect).***
Did you get an extra round of combat in a 5-round battle because you used Uncanny Dodge 5 times? Damage redeemed. Were you able to ignore cover because of the ASI and hit an extra shot or two? Damage redeemed. Do you get to hide and get the advantage to hit or even to land a Sharpshooter all day long? *Damage redeemed*.
Nope. It's still not quite the goods. But the utility is worth something - and that 'something' you lose is a low level of damage lost, if you play it smart.
An Arcane Trickster with G-FB (or BB) will consistently put up solid numbers, especially in higher tiers of play. Throwing around 6d6+3d8+Dex mod on your turn per hit (with a rapier) and a potential for another 3d8 as either secondary or second target damage is pretty sweet for 11th level, and with something like Sentinel to help fish for more Sneak Attacks to drop another 6d6+1d8+Dex mod (again, rapier), that’s a potential 12d6+7d8+2Dex mod/Round. With an 18 Dex that’s an average potential DPR of 81.5…. That ain’t nothin.’
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A Rogue that is using Sentinel is in melee range and is not using uncanny dodge. At that level something like a horned devil is dealing out 40DPR
Yeah, and it’s only got 178HP. If the Rogue is dealing 81.5 DPR it can kill that devil in 2 rounds with a little luck all by itself. And (heavens to mergatroid) faster with the rest of the party involved too. (😱 There are other PCs?!? It’s not just a rogue all by itself?!?)
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Sure, but a Rogue using Sentinel is in melee range, is a very attractive target (compared to the guy in plate or the Raginig barbarian) and will generally not last 2 rounds against a horned devil without using uncanny dodge. And at 11th level that Devil is not by himself either, there are probably 3 or 4 of them unless it is designed to be an easy encounter.
The numbers tell the story:
Against an 11th level Rogue with a 17AC and 20 dexterity is going to take on average 70 damage in 2 turns of combat against a Horned devil if he does not have a reaction. With a 14 Constitution (which is really high for an AT) he will have a 32% chance of being at 0 hit points by the end of turn 2.
Making 2 booming blade Rapier action sneak attacks with advantage and 1 sentinel sneak attack during the same 2 turns he will deal on average 58 damage, meaning the horned devil has 120hps left. Using a magic rapier will boost it to 92 damage, still WAY, WAY below what you need to kill a horned devil.
If you use cunning action disengage instead of using steady aim your damage drops to 44 and you take 35 damage.
If you took piercer you could get another feat while still having a 20 dex and use cunning action and don't let him attack you and your damage would be 34 while you would take 0.
That of course assumes the Horned Devil does not just stand back and hurl fire at the Rogue waiting to use sentinel.
At 11th level there is more than 1 horned devil too.
A bit late, but something important to remember here is that letting the Rogue handle the target will leave the Fighter free to go harass an enemy that won't go down in one turn, which'll tie that enemy up in combat and keep it from going after the party's squishies. If the Fighter takes out the grave target, then that leaves the Rogue to go poke another enemy... but the difference is that the Rogue isn't nearly as good at taking a hit as the Fighter, and thus might not be able to stay close enough to threaten OAs.
So, your reasoning for saying they suck at DPR is that they should use half their action economy to not be in range to attack…. That’s pretty telling right there. And if they don’t have a magic weapon, even a +1 Dagger by 11th level then something is horribly wrong. And dropping from a rapier to a dagger drops average DPR from 81.5 to 77.5. Still more than half a bone Devil in a single round.
And I’m not saying play stupid, if they attack you then you Uncannily Dodge instead. But with positioning and coordination it is possible to consistently proc out-of-turn Sneak Attacks. Sentinel is just one of them. But it takes teamwork. Like the Paladin using Compelled Duel at times, etc. teamwork.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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I never said they suck at DPR and I was talking about a Horned Devil, a Bone Devil is CR9 and quite a bit weaker.
That said your math is WAY wrong and your DPR number is off by almost double.
A 11th level Rogue with a 20Dex fighting an AC19 Bone Devil making 2 sneak attacks in one round (one with booming blade using action and one sneak attack using Sentinel reaction), both with a magic dagger, will do on average 39.1 DPR. That damgage includes chances of landing a crit.
On average it will take said Rogue 4 rounds to kill said Bone Devil, not 2 and that assumes he gets to use Sentinel every single round.
And keep in mind we are giving the Rogue Sneak attack, but the Bone Devil's sting can cause poisoned condition which also causes disadvantage on attacks and eliminates Sneak attack as an option.
You can not uncanny dodge if you use the Sentinel feat, that is the whole point and they get 3 attacks. Further you need to get in position and intentionally make yourself a target to have a chance to use the Sentinel Feat
Maybe I am off on the math, but an 11th rogue with a 20 dex has a +9 to hit meaning rolling a 10 or better to hit AC 19 or .55 prob. Using steady aim (which is ideal on a blade cantrip) that prob is .7975. Damage from the boom sneak is 1d4+6d6+2d8+5 (2.5+21+9+5 = 37.5), and then 1d4+6d6+5 (2.5+21+5 = 28.5) on the sentinel sneak attack.
Or
.7975 x 37.5 = 29.9; 28.5 x .55= 15.7 for a total of 45.6 dpr
that all assumes a +0 magic dagger. A +1 dagger moves that up to 50 dpr. None of that counts extra damage from crits or the movement based damage from boom.
Your number seems to be right for two standard attacks, no steady aim. Steady aim gets very interesting results and starts doing interesting things to dpr for a melee based blade cantrip rogue. It takes the limitation of only one shot at sneak and makes the math more favorable.
If you use steady aim before booming blade the total including crits is 49.925 DPR (not counting movement damage) however that is not realistic because to use sentinel to attack you are going to have to move a lot, on the first turn almost certainly and then after than when either an enemy dies or your ally moves (or is moved). You also generally won't be able to use steady aim if the enemy triggers the movement damage, meaning these two (damage from moving and steady aim) are more or less exclusive.
Regardless, even at 50dpr it is still 3 rounds to kill a bone devil and 4 to kill a horned devil.
What I posted on several on several posts on here does account for crits
So in defense of the mono class rogue, I'ma leave this here.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gv_81HPSh6v1VAZk7ZIxfY7hzzZj1A0ckdNKc2PpCdU/edit
https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/63358141
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKF5TR8U6_o