What about Clockwork? Not many people talking about that one...
I dislike anything remotely steam-punkish, so I haven't really looked at it in depth. I usually roll my eyes in the description and move on. I know that it's got "bloodline" spells, and that's a definite plus. I have no opinions on the rest of it. I remember the skimming of it that I gave it that at first glance it looked solid, that's as far as i can go though.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What about Clockwork? Not many people talking about that one...
I like the abilities manipulating advantage and disadvantage, kind of like how grave cleric cancels criticals. It isn't completely broken, since a hit with advantage can still miss, and one with disadvantage can still hit, but it's a nice equalizer to give players so they feel like they have a little bit more control over the dice than they would otherwise.
Perhaps I can offer some enlightenment on his position. He and I clashed A LOT when they started talking psionics, and I've previously in this thread avoided commenting on his posts, specifically because I pretty much got exactly what I wanted, and he got precisely what he argued vehemently against. I want to /try/ and be a good sport about "winning" this round and not rub his nose in while he's upset, because he's a good guy who's got just as "right" of an opinion as I do.
The sum of his position is basically, that psionics is /not/ magic and it should not be treated as though it's just magic. It should have a completely unique mechanic to represent it, not be a subset of spells bolted onto the sorcerer (which should have been a psion in the first place before metamagic was stolen to make sorcerers unique from wizards when flexible casting was stolen from sorcerers). The crux of his heartburn on this is that it's a huge slap in the face to psion fans that they do not get unique mechanics to represent what in their opinion is completely separate from "weave magic" for lack of a better term. The fact that the Aberrant mind exists, with the terminolgy it has, with things being called "psionic sorcery" slams a final nail in the coffin of any hopes he had for a unique psion class.
I'm with him on an awful lot of the character content in the book. There's a HUGE amount of power creep in here, especially with racial stats and I very very strongly dislike overall power creep. I can accept the sorcerer power creep because I've always disagreed with the small amount of spells that sorcerers have. So, I feel the inherent power creep in these sorcerer origins is 'ok' because it doesn't harm the overall balance of the game.
The power creep I am not onboard with is racial stats allowing you to no longer have to make compromises for your power gain. before, if you wanted a dwarf wizard, you coudl do it, but you were going to be a bit behind on your INT progression. It's a trade. Medium armor and weapons, or...Int. Now, there's literally no drawback to picking a dwarf. If you pick an iconic elf though, you lose out on medium armor and a stat point. Yuan-ti (or satyr) barbarian is another example. Yuan-ti gives you advantage on all your saving throws vs magic. With barbs usually dumping int and wis, that's a pretty significant benefit. the tradeoff was, 14 str and con. Now, you can start with 16 Str and Con, and still get your adv on magic saving throws. There's no tradeoff, for a pure power gain. That's naked power creep and it's bad.
Bonus spells: great to have. I'm not super keen on the spells you get, but there are probably some worthy abjuration and transmutation spells I'd be happy to sub in.
manifest order is where my eyes roll. I'd totally ignore that. 100% fluff.
Restore balance is pretty nice. You're not goign to use it all the time, but when you do, you're going to feel like a boss, and so is the person you helped.
bastion of law....good ability, hiiiiigh price. Whew, not sure how often I'd be willing to use my limited number of sorc points on this but man. This could be strong. Could be really useful to put this on someone using Armor of Agathys in melee.
Trance of Order. Good but I am not sure how often it will come up. I tend to not give up advantage too often myself, but at higher levels than I usually play, maybe it would be harder for me to avoid?
Clockwork Cavalcade seems pretty darned strong. I'm not sure how often I'd need to use some of those features, but man a 100 point heal is always helpful even if you never use the other ones.
All in all, I would say on the surface, clockwork sorc looks pretty strong, even if not something I'd be terribly interested in playing. I'd totally play an aberrant mind though, I already have one generated and ready to go. It won't be the next character I play, but it's on the list if things I'd like to play. Especially now that I can trade in shortswords or rapiers to get scimitars (plural) Because they are standard issue for drow of course.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm with him on an awful lot of the character content in the book. There's a HUGE amount of power creep in here, especially with racial stats and I very very strongly dislike overall power creep. I can accept the sorcerer power creep because I've always disagreed with the small amount of spells that sorcerers have. So, I feel the inherent power creep in these sorcerer origins is 'ok' because it doesn't harm the overall balance of the game.
The power creep I am not onboard with is racial stats allowing you to no longer have to make compromises for your power gain. before, if you wanted a dwarf wizard, you coudl do it, but you were going to be a bit behind on your INT progression. It's a trade. Medium armor and weapons, or...Int. Now, there's literally no drawback to picking a dwarf. If you pick an iconic elf though, you lose out on medium armor and a stat point. Yuan-ti (or satyr) barbarian is another example. Yuan-ti gives you advantage on all your saving throws vs magic. With barbs usually dumping int and wis, that's a pretty significant benefit. the tradeoff was, 14 str and con. Now, you can start with 16 Str and Con, and still get your adv on magic saving throws. There's no tradeoff, for a pure power gain. That's naked power creep and it's bad.
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I see, I guess I just agree with you regarding psionics then ;)
as for racial stat choices I considder this a great upgrade more than powercreep. The reason is that previously you could still «powergame» and play the race that was designed for a class. Wood elf for ranger for instance. That ended up with very limited options without gimping tour character quite significantly.
now that is gone and people can play whatever concept without feeling like you make bad decisions. As for medium armor, elves have other very good stuff - like never sleeping (totally op ability in our groups at least)
anything that aligns powergaming with roleplaying as great in my book.
I guess my biggest issue with the aberrant mind is the let down of the capstone. The rest are nice things to have and can see more or less use depending on campaign. The sorcerer of sorcerers, i.e. more spells from smaller selection, is cool but is it unique enough to define this subclass? Then we get to the capstone which rips a hole in reality causing a small black hole as you teleport to safety doing ... 15 damage. Basically mimicking a 3rd level spell. I know it reusable but really you have so many other options that using your action on this feels wasted. Like if i'm completely out of spells and need to run away here you go. Just up the damage and maybe make it 7 sorc points and the mechanics might live up to the fluff they put with it. It feels like a wasted opportunity to do something cool and unique. Nothing here feels unique, be a kalashtar and carry some scrolls on you and you pretty much have everything this subclass offers, if not quite as convenient.
Oh, I agree about the capstone. At the same level, wizards get infinite 1st/2nd level slots for two spells, and warlock get an Eldritch invocation. Def. a let down.
But I say that about all lvl 18 abilities for Sorcerer. Maybe not Storm. But the rest? Totally
There's some potential to use that pull to create a tight blast pattern for a quickened AOE blast.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
There's some potential to use that pull to create a tight blast pattern for a quickened AOE blast.
Ish? It's a STR save, and the monsters without a good STR score or save tend to be back row types in the first place. So, you need to get to them before activating it. Which is tricky and might involve movement spells/abilities.
You also need to ensure you're outside of ally range. Hurting your friends and shoving them into a cuddle pile with the bad guys is a no-no.
Its a very niche spell, probably intended to be used for a get-out-of-trouble card, followed by a Quickened attack spell.
I said potential lol. Mostly it's a teleport out of trouble free which is still nice to have.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Fundamentally speaking, I understand the point, but I am unsure as to how power creep is even possible in a game such as D&D. Let me explain:
D&D is an exceptions based rule system wherein a game master (dungeon master) has the final say. As a result, the purpose of the rules and mechanics of the game is to be broken, and the purpose of the dungeon master is to facilitate this in a way that tells an intriguing story centered around their players. This means that any and all rules do not have to be followed. Thus, what Tasha's is doing is not actually "changing" the rules of D&D, but instead providing an official template for players and DMs who would like to incorporate these aspects into their games.
For those who do add in these aspects, the players and DM go in knowing the power level of these abilities, and thus can prepare accordingly, resulting in a balanced game. For those who do not, there will be no upscaling. This is the key aspect of D&D. It is a fluid and flexible system, which is why it is SO VITALLY IMPORTANT to have things such as a real "Session Zero". Through proper communication between players and DM at the outset of the game, both sides can go in knowing what to expect and agreeing that this is what everyone wants to do. As a result, balance gameplay will ensue.
Thus, while I do concede that A LOT of the new material in Tasha's is stronger than the old material, unless a serious mistake is made on the part of the players or DM when beginning a new campaign or adding this new material in, the actual "power creep" of these new abilities is 100% avoidable, and thus nullified.
Fundamentally speaking, I understand the point, but I am unsure as to how power creep is even possible in a game such as D&D. Let me explain:
D&D is an exceptions based rule system wherein a game master (dungeon master) has the final say. As a result, the purpose of the rules and mechanics of the game is to be broken, and the purpose of the dungeon master is to facilitate this in a way that tells an intriguing story centered around their players. This means that any and all rules do not have to be followed. Thus, what Tasha's is doing is not actually "changing" the rules of D&D, but instead providing an official template for players and DMs who would like to incorporate these aspects into their games.
For those who do add in these aspects, the players and DM go in knowing the power level of these abilities, and thus can prepare accordingly, resulting in a balanced game. For those who do not, there will be no upscaling. This is the key aspect of D&D. It is a fluid and flexible system, which is why it is SO VITALLY IMPORTANT to have things such as a real "Session Zero". Through proper communication between players and DM at the outset of the game, both sides can go in knowing what to expect and agreeing that this is what everyone wants to do. As a result, balance gameplay will ensue.
Thus, while I do concede that A LOT of the new material in Tasha's is stronger than the old material, unless a serious mistake is made on the part of the players or DM when beginning a new campaign or adding this new material in, the actual "power creep" of these new abilities is 100% avoidable, and thus nullified.
Disallowing an option such as the things Crzyhawk described doesn't suddenly mean that Tasha's didn't bring in power creep on the Sorcerer or in his example how picking dwarf or yuan-ti is a straight bonus for some things.
Like sure you could tell your players no you can't play clockwork soul or Aberrant Mind but that doesn't stop them from being widely viewed as more powerful than the classes from the PHB, and if it's something like Adventurer's League than uh no you can't tell em they can't play those classes or use those optionals. /shrug
I'm of the belief that Sorcerers where in dire need OF powercreep as the PHB classes to me fail to perform, but I'd also have vastly preferred they also buffed the draconic and wild sorcerers so they didn't just get pushed to the wayside. Same thing with the Rangers
While I agree that actually buffing the subclasses in the PHB would have been nice (it is needed), I think the new subclasses and some of the items such as the Bloodwell Vial give DMs "permission" to add origin spells to the subclasses. Most of us have been tweaking and home brewing the class anyway. Newer DMs may have a more "but this is how it is on the book" mind set (not all, just some) so Tasha's basically says "Ok, here are subclasses where we have added origin spells, to give you an idea how to do it for the other subclasses."
Would it have been preferable to do what they do when they add spells to the class and just say, "from now on each subclass will have origin spells and here is what they are." Yes. But I've noticed that WotC doesn't seem to think in terms of logic a lot of the time. And a lot of what they do is based on the feedback they get on UA content.
In any case, I will continue home brewing fixes to the class for my players including giving the other subclasses origin spells.
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What about Clockwork? Not many people talking about that one...
I dislike anything remotely steam-punkish, so I haven't really looked at it in depth. I usually roll my eyes in the description and move on. I know that it's got "bloodline" spells, and that's a definite plus. I have no opinions on the rest of it. I remember the skimming of it that I gave it that at first glance it looked solid, that's as far as i can go though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I like the abilities manipulating advantage and disadvantage, kind of like how grave cleric cancels criticals. It isn't completely broken, since a hit with advantage can still miss, and one with disadvantage can still hit, but it's a nice equalizer to give players so they feel like they have a little bit more control over the dice than they would otherwise.
Thank you.
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A quick look at clockwork for me:
Bonus spells: great to have. I'm not super keen on the spells you get, but there are probably some worthy abjuration and transmutation spells I'd be happy to sub in.
manifest order is where my eyes roll. I'd totally ignore that. 100% fluff.
Restore balance is pretty nice. You're not goign to use it all the time, but when you do, you're going to feel like a boss, and so is the person you helped.
bastion of law....good ability, hiiiiigh price. Whew, not sure how often I'd be willing to use my limited number of sorc points on this but man. This could be strong. Could be really useful to put this on someone using Armor of Agathys in melee.
Trance of Order. Good but I am not sure how often it will come up. I tend to not give up advantage too often myself, but at higher levels than I usually play, maybe it would be harder for me to avoid?
Clockwork Cavalcade seems pretty darned strong. I'm not sure how often I'd need to use some of those features, but man a 100 point heal is always helpful even if you never use the other ones.
All in all, I would say on the surface, clockwork sorc looks pretty strong, even if not something I'd be terribly interested in playing. I'd totally play an aberrant mind though, I already have one generated and ready to go. It won't be the next character I play, but it's on the list if things I'd like to play. Especially now that I can trade in shortswords or rapiers to get scimitars (plural) Because they are standard issue for drow of course.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I see, I guess I just agree with you regarding psionics then ;)
as for racial stat choices I considder this a great upgrade more than powercreep. The reason is that previously you could still «powergame» and play the race that was designed for a class. Wood elf for ranger for instance. That ended up with very limited options without gimping tour character quite significantly.
now that is gone and people can play whatever concept without feeling like you make bad decisions. As for medium armor, elves have other very good stuff - like never sleeping (totally op ability in our groups at least)
anything that aligns powergaming with roleplaying as great in my book.
I guess my biggest issue with the aberrant mind is the let down of the capstone. The rest are nice things to have and can see more or less use depending on campaign. The sorcerer of sorcerers, i.e. more spells from smaller selection, is cool but is it unique enough to define this subclass? Then we get to the capstone which rips a hole in reality causing a small black hole as you teleport to safety doing ... 15 damage. Basically mimicking a 3rd level spell. I know it reusable but really you have so many other options that using your action on this feels wasted. Like if i'm completely out of spells and need to run away here you go. Just up the damage and maybe make it 7 sorc points and the mechanics might live up to the fluff they put with it. It feels like a wasted opportunity to do something cool and unique. Nothing here feels unique, be a kalashtar and carry some scrolls on you and you pretty much have everything this subclass offers, if not quite as convenient.
Oh, I agree about the capstone. At the same level, wizards get infinite 1st/2nd level slots for two spells, and warlock get an Eldritch invocation. Def. a let down.
But I say that about all lvl 18 abilities for Sorcerer. Maybe not Storm. But the rest? Totally
There's some potential to use that pull to create a tight blast pattern for a quickened AOE blast.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Ish? It's a STR save, and the monsters without a good STR score or save tend to be back row types in the first place. So, you need to get to them before activating it. Which is tricky and might involve movement spells/abilities.
You also need to ensure you're outside of ally range. Hurting your friends and shoving them into a cuddle pile with the bad guys is a no-no.
Its a very niche spell, probably intended to be used for a get-out-of-trouble card, followed by a Quickened attack spell.
I said potential lol. Mostly it's a teleport out of trouble free which is still nice to have.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Fundamentally speaking, I understand the point, but I am unsure as to how power creep is even possible in a game such as D&D. Let me explain:
D&D is an exceptions based rule system wherein a game master (dungeon master) has the final say. As a result, the purpose of the rules and mechanics of the game is to be broken, and the purpose of the dungeon master is to facilitate this in a way that tells an intriguing story centered around their players. This means that any and all rules do not have to be followed. Thus, what Tasha's is doing is not actually "changing" the rules of D&D, but instead providing an official template for players and DMs who would like to incorporate these aspects into their games.
For those who do add in these aspects, the players and DM go in knowing the power level of these abilities, and thus can prepare accordingly, resulting in a balanced game. For those who do not, there will be no upscaling. This is the key aspect of D&D. It is a fluid and flexible system, which is why it is SO VITALLY IMPORTANT to have things such as a real "Session Zero". Through proper communication between players and DM at the outset of the game, both sides can go in knowing what to expect and agreeing that this is what everyone wants to do. As a result, balance gameplay will ensue.
Thus, while I do concede that A LOT of the new material in Tasha's is stronger than the old material, unless a serious mistake is made on the part of the players or DM when beginning a new campaign or adding this new material in, the actual "power creep" of these new abilities is 100% avoidable, and thus nullified.
Disallowing an option such as the things Crzyhawk described doesn't suddenly mean that Tasha's didn't bring in power creep on the Sorcerer or in his example how picking dwarf or yuan-ti is a straight bonus for some things.
Like sure you could tell your players no you can't play clockwork soul or Aberrant Mind but that doesn't stop them from being widely viewed as more powerful than the classes from the PHB, and if it's something like Adventurer's League than uh no you can't tell em they can't play those classes or use those optionals. /shrug
I'm of the belief that Sorcerers where in dire need OF powercreep as the PHB classes to me fail to perform, but I'd also have vastly preferred they also buffed the draconic and wild sorcerers so they didn't just get pushed to the wayside. Same thing with the Rangers
While I agree that actually buffing the subclasses in the PHB would have been nice (it is needed), I think the new subclasses and some of the items such as the Bloodwell Vial give DMs "permission" to add origin spells to the subclasses. Most of us have been tweaking and home brewing the class anyway. Newer DMs may have a more "but this is how it is on the book" mind set (not all, just some) so Tasha's basically says "Ok, here are subclasses where we have added origin spells, to give you an idea how to do it for the other subclasses."
Would it have been preferable to do what they do when they add spells to the class and just say, "from now on each subclass will have origin spells and here is what they are." Yes. But I've noticed that WotC doesn't seem to think in terms of logic a lot of the time. And a lot of what they do is based on the feedback they get on UA content.
In any case, I will continue home brewing fixes to the class for my players including giving the other subclasses origin spells.