I don't think hex ever "drops off" per se, since it scales with your number of attacks and the disadvantage on checks is always useful. However, the warlock has a lot to offer in terms of concentration spells, and to limit yourself to hex is a waste. I've found that, depending on the situation, other spells can turn the tide far more than a d6 of damage per attack and disadvantage on checks. And because of the few spell slots that warlocks get, turning the tide is exactly what they want out of their slots.
I don't think hex ever "drops off" per se, since it scales with your number of attacks and the disadvantage on checks is always useful. However, the warlock has a lot to offer in terms of concentration spells, and to limit yourself to hex is a waste. I've found that, depending on the situation, other spells can turn the tide far more than a d6 of damage per attack and disadvantage on checks. And because of the few spell slots that warlocks get, turning the tide is exactly what they want out of their slots.
This has been my experience. You end up in combat justifying holding Hex for the extra d6 on each EB, and you invested a spell slot on Hex. Often a better option is available and then the choice is to lose that Hex, or double down and continue to keep it. Hex does have uses at later levels, but for a straight class Warlock you will quickly find superior options for that Bonus Action\Concentration\Spell Slot.
I don't think hex ever "drops off" per se, since it scales with your number of attacks and the disadvantage on checks is always useful. However, the warlock has a lot to offer in terms of concentration spells, and to limit yourself to hex is a waste. I've found that, depending on the situation, other spells can turn the tide far more than a d6 of damage per attack and disadvantage on checks. And because of the few spell slots that warlocks get, turning the tide is exactly what they want out of their slots.
This has been my experience. You end up in combat justifying holding Hex for the extra d6 on each EB, and you invested a spell slot on Hex. Often a better option is available and then the choice is to lose that Hex, or double down and continue to keep it. Hex does have uses at later levels, but for a straight class Warlock you will quickly find superior options for that Bonus Action\Concentration\Spell Slot.
I've been playing a straight-classed fathomless warlock for around 8 months now (started him at level 5, currently at level 13) and I never even took hex once, because I've always had better options for my bonus action. At earlier levels, that option was typically tentacle of the deeps. At later levels, the tentacle is usually only on the field for guardian coil, and my go-to is either far step or Bigby's hand. For my 7th level mystic arcanum I went with forcecage instead of crown of stars, but that would be yet another option if I had gone the other way. Every one of those generally have a much bigger impact on the combat than hex could in the situations I find myself in. I'd much rather teleport out of danger (far step), lock someone down in a bad position (Bigby's hand), slow an enemy down so they can't escape my nasty AoE control spell (tentacle of the deeps), or deal a good bit of extra damage (crown of stars) than give the enemy disadvantage on checks that may or may not come up in combat and deal a couple extra points of damage per attack. And honestly, even if I did have hex on my list, I've got so many good options by now that I don't even rely as heavily on eldritch blast as I used to, which devalues hex quite a bit.
I kind of feel mid levels is where its at its worst. Tier 1 the d6 matters and your other options are sparse. Tier 2 early 3 you generally have better options, and you don't have that many known spells. Tier late 3-4 you have better options but you have room for it on your known list and if cast before a short rest it has no real cost. You just need to have the discipline to drop it when needed. Though some of that is campaign/game style dependent. Like if you have 1 battle a short rest, just go hard with your 3 to 4 slots at high levels and hex is almost never worth it here, but if you have 3 fights per short rest you may have better options but the fight may not be worth the resources.
Hex is overrated at just about any point in the game unless you are leveraging the disadvantage to ability checks or have picked up invocations to supplement it. It's big advantages are it's ease of use and potentially carrying it over a SR but past that ~2.3 damage per roll doesn't even start meeting the criteria of a decent return until after 4 success hits.
Compare it to something like hellish rebuke which is often an overlooked pick on the warlock. By the time you have better uses for your slots it's probably added at least twice as much damage as hex plus the benefit of having some soft punishment for damaging you.
**~2.3 damage is assuming 60% chance of hit.**
Lets do some raw calculations:
At level 5 were making two eldritch blasts per turn. If we use point buy we'll likely have an 18 or +4 for charisma. +3 proficiancy bonus for a total of +7 to hit. The average AC of a CR 5-7 monster is 15, according to the DMG. This gives a 0.6 chance to hit, which is the same as the one you had.
Now we have two different scenarios. We could either have multiple targets, or a single one. Let's assume a target for multiple targets is dropped in a single turn and a single target takes 3 rounds. This is pretty much worst case scenario for both, so if anything the real numbers are probably higher.
If we have multiple targets, we'll do 2*0.6*3.5+0.02*3.5=4.9. Comparing to hellish rebuke or shatter, they deal 11 and 13.5 average damage receptively, which is a fair amount that our conservative estimate for hex's damage against multiple targets.
Is we have a single target on the other hand, 3*4.9=14.7, better than either hellish rebuke or shatter.
So in conclusion, it's neither op nor terrible. Against a single target, in terms of damage per spell slot (not taking into account actions, ect) it's one of the best options. It outperformed hellish rebuke or shatter, even with the conservative estimate of only 3 rounds to take down the enemy. But the difference wasn't massive enough to make hex a must-have. Against multiple targets, it did less well than the other options. hex is in some ways overrated, but still a fairly good option.
Hex is overrated at just about any point in the game unless you are leveraging the disadvantage to ability checks or have picked up invocations to supplement it. It's big advantages are it's ease of use and potentially carrying it over a SR but past that ~2.3 damage per roll doesn't even start meeting the criteria of a decent return until after 4 success hits.
Compare it to something like hellish rebuke which is often an overlooked pick on the warlock. By the time you have better uses for your slots it's probably added at least twice as much damage as hex plus the benefit of having some soft punishment for damaging you.
**~2.3 damage is assuming 60% chance of hit.**
Lets do some raw calculations:
At level 5 were making two eldritch blasts per turn. If we use point buy we'll likely have an 18 or +4 for charisma. +3 proficiancy bonus for a total of +7 to hit. The average AC of a CR 5-7 monster is 15, according to the DMG. This gives a 0.6 chance to hit, which is the same as the one you had.
Now we have two different scenarios. We could either have multiple targets, or a single one. Let's assume a target for multiple targets is dropped in a single turn and a single target takes 3 rounds. This is pretty much worst case scenario for both, so if anything the real numbers are probably higher.
If we have multiple targets, we'll do 2*0.6*3.5+0.02*3.5=4.9. Comparing to hellish rebuke or shatter, they deal 11 and 13.5 average damage receptively, which is a fair amount that our conservative estimate for hex's damage against multiple targets.
Is we have a single target on the other hand, 3*4.9=14.7, better than either hellish rebuke or shatter.
So in conclusion, it's neither op nor terrible. Against a single target, in terms of damage per spell slot (not taking into account actions, ect) it's one of the best options. It outperformed hellish rebuke or shatter, even with the conservative estimate of only 3 rounds to take down the enemy. But the difference wasn't massive enough to make hex a must-have. Against multiple targets, it did less well than the other options. hex is in some ways overrated, but still a fairly good option.
I'd recommend keeping it for now.
The big difference is concentration. At lv 5 a hex is being compared to summon undead or fey depending if you need the darkness.
Well yes, but then you need to take into account the circumstances of where, when and who is also in the party. Hex is discreet, doesn't bother other party members and won't get you branded as a necromancer, amongst other things. At higher levels, it also gives you a homing beacon.
Hex is overrated at just about any point in the game unless you are leveraging the disadvantage to ability checks or have picked up invocations to supplement it. It's big advantages are it's ease of use and potentially carrying it over a SR but past that ~2.3 damage per roll doesn't even start meeting the criteria of a decent return until after 4 success hits.
Compare it to something like hellish rebuke which is often an overlooked pick on the warlock. By the time you have better uses for your slots it's probably added at least twice as much damage as hex plus the benefit of having some soft punishment for damaging you.
**~2.3 damage is assuming 60% chance of hit.**
Lets do some raw calculations:
At level 5 were making two eldritch blasts per turn. If we use point buy we'll likely have an 18 or +4 for charisma. +3 proficiancy bonus for a total of +7 to hit. The average AC of a CR 5-7 monster is 15, according to the DMG. This gives a 0.6 chance to hit, which is the same as the one you had.
Now we have two different scenarios. We could either have multiple targets, or a single one. Let's assume a target for multiple targets is dropped in a single turn and a single target takes 3 rounds. This is pretty much worst case scenario for both, so if anything the real numbers are probably higher.
If we have multiple targets, we'll do 2*0.6*3.5+0.02*3.5=4.9. Comparing to hellish rebuke or shatter, they deal 11 and 13.5 average damage receptively, which is a fair amount that our conservative estimate for hex's damage against multiple targets.
Is we have a single target on the other hand, 3*4.9=14.7, better than either hellish rebuke or shatter.
So in conclusion, it's neither op nor terrible. Against a single target, in terms of damage per spell slot (not taking into account actions, ect) it's one of the best options. It outperformed hellish rebuke or shatter, even with the conservative estimate of only 3 rounds to take down the enemy. But the difference wasn't massive enough to make hex a must-have. Against multiple targets, it did less well than the other options. hex is in some ways overrated, but still a fairly good option.
I'd recommend keeping it for now.
The big difference is concentration. At lv 5 a hex is being compared to summon undead or fey depending if you need the darkness.
That's a good point. There are many specific circumstances in which one spell is given an advantage (for example is a stealth mission shatter is not really an option). Concentration is a factor. So is the disadvantage on ability checks. This is where a more holistic approach of analyzing the spell is better. This is the reason every problem is not solved by a mathematician. There's a lot more complexity in most issues that can be covered by simple equations and estimates. But your point of selection bias is also fair. This is why I brought some raw calculations to the table.
My calculations were a simple baseline to show that's it's neither worthless nor over powered. I made many assumptions and ignored other factors.
At the end of the day, what matters are what build you want to create, and the fantasy you want to tell. If you don't plan to spam eldritch blast, hex may not be as good of a choice for you at higher levels, ect. Personally, I usually don't play an eldritch blast spammer when I play warlock, even if it may be mathematically optimal.
At the end of the day, what matters are what build you want to create, and the fantasy you want to tell. If you don't plan to spam eldritch blast, hex may not be as good of a choice for you at higher levels, ect. Personally, I usually don't play an eldritch blast spammer when I play warlock, even if it may be mathematically optimal.
Aye. If anything I strongly advocate for players to avoid the EB spamming trap for locks. It's one of the most interesting and flexible casters that for some reason gets memed as the boring cantrip spammer.
Co-sign to this. I'm playing two extremely different warlocks right now, and haven't taken hex yet with either -- there always seem to be more interesting/thematic spell options
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Aye. If anything I strongly advocate for players to avoid the EB spamming trap for locks. It's one of the most interesting and flexible casters that for some reason gets memed as the boring cantrip spammer.
Agreed, though I'll say that those who criticize the warlock blaster as boring are often the ones itching to swing their weapon of choice; every round and as often as allowed. I don't find EB as option #1 boring at all. In fact, my warlock can deal as much DPR as anyone in our group. It what the class does really well. I found at about level 6 that Hex just seemed less and less worth the spell slot and concentration. FWIW; our combats tend to last three rounds generally.
I think the point is, DPR isn't the only thing the class can do really well. And no, those of us taking another path aren't just subbing in Hexblade or Genie weapon DPR for eldritch blast DPR
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think the point is, DPR isn't the only thing the class can do really well. And no, those of us taking another path aren't just subbing in Hexblade or Genie weapon DPR for eldritch blast DPR
Oh there are a wealth of options a warlock can have; its one of the most flexible classes to shape into whatever you want. I just don't subscribe to some silly notion that if you have a solid attack option as your primary option, it makes a build boring. To get this back to the OP's topic, I'd argue using Hex would potentially limit your warlock options. It will make you really want to keep that spell running as long as possible.
I’m personally a hugebig fan of darkness and Devil’s Sight as a combo for Warlocks.
Me too, I just take hex with Fey Touched. As it is, situationally speaking, a good spell.One I use a lot longer than shatter or even invisibility. Now I'm playing an Arch Fey, I won't touch hex and will go for Imp Invisibility as my concentration spell. And the one time I played a Celestial I was the de facto cleric/healer, as the Druid didn't want to, of the party so didn't take Hex.
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Undead is the most powerful GISH warlock IMO. It is generally more powerful as a GISH than Hexblade in IMO.
I don't think hex ever "drops off" per se, since it scales with your number of attacks and the disadvantage on checks is always useful. However, the warlock has a lot to offer in terms of concentration spells, and to limit yourself to hex is a waste. I've found that, depending on the situation, other spells can turn the tide far more than a d6 of damage per attack and disadvantage on checks. And because of the few spell slots that warlocks get, turning the tide is exactly what they want out of their slots.
This has been my experience. You end up in combat justifying holding Hex for the extra d6 on each EB, and you invested a spell slot on Hex. Often a better option is available and then the choice is to lose that Hex, or double down and continue to keep it. Hex does have uses at later levels, but for a straight class Warlock you will quickly find superior options for that Bonus Action\Concentration\Spell Slot.
I've been playing a straight-classed fathomless warlock for around 8 months now (started him at level 5, currently at level 13) and I never even took hex once, because I've always had better options for my bonus action. At earlier levels, that option was typically tentacle of the deeps. At later levels, the tentacle is usually only on the field for guardian coil, and my go-to is either far step or Bigby's hand. For my 7th level mystic arcanum I went with forcecage instead of crown of stars, but that would be yet another option if I had gone the other way. Every one of those generally have a much bigger impact on the combat than hex could in the situations I find myself in. I'd much rather teleport out of danger (far step), lock someone down in a bad position (Bigby's hand), slow an enemy down so they can't escape my nasty AoE control spell (tentacle of the deeps), or deal a good bit of extra damage (crown of stars) than give the enemy disadvantage on checks that may or may not come up in combat and deal a couple extra points of damage per attack. And honestly, even if I did have hex on my list, I've got so many good options by now that I don't even rely as heavily on eldritch blast as I used to, which devalues hex quite a bit.
I kind of feel mid levels is where its at its worst. Tier 1 the d6 matters and your other options are sparse. Tier 2 early 3 you generally have better options, and you don't have that many known spells. Tier late 3-4 you have better options but you have room for it on your known list and if cast before a short rest it has no real cost. You just need to have the discipline to drop it when needed. Though some of that is campaign/game style dependent. Like if you have 1 battle a short rest, just go hard with your 3 to 4 slots at high levels and hex is almost never worth it here, but if you have 3 fights per short rest you may have better options but the fight may not be worth the resources.
Lets do some raw calculations:
At level 5 were making two eldritch blasts per turn. If we use point buy we'll likely have an 18 or +4 for charisma. +3 proficiancy bonus for a total of +7 to hit. The average AC of a CR 5-7 monster is 15, according to the DMG. This gives a 0.6 chance to hit, which is the same as the one you had.
Now we have two different scenarios. We could either have multiple targets, or a single one. Let's assume a target for multiple targets is dropped in a single turn and a single target takes 3 rounds. This is pretty much worst case scenario for both, so if anything the real numbers are probably higher.
If we have multiple targets, we'll do 2*0.6*3.5+0.02*3.5=4.9. Comparing to hellish rebuke or shatter, they deal 11 and 13.5 average damage receptively, which is a fair amount that our conservative estimate for hex's damage against multiple targets.
Is we have a single target on the other hand, 3*4.9=14.7, better than either hellish rebuke or shatter.
So in conclusion, it's neither op nor terrible. Against a single target, in terms of damage per spell slot (not taking into account actions, ect) it's one of the best options. It outperformed hellish rebuke or shatter, even with the conservative estimate of only 3 rounds to take down the enemy. But the difference wasn't massive enough to make hex a must-have. Against multiple targets, it did less well than the other options. hex is in some ways overrated, but still a fairly good option.
I'd recommend keeping it for now.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
Well yes, but then you need to take into account the circumstances of where, when and who is also in the party. Hex is discreet, doesn't bother other party members and won't get you branded as a necromancer, amongst other things. At higher levels, it also gives you a homing beacon.
Yes, and that's why hex is more than extra damage dice. It's situational and depending on the subclass.
That's a good point. There are many specific circumstances in which one spell is given an advantage (for example is a stealth mission shatter is not really an option). Concentration is a factor. So is the disadvantage on ability checks. This is where a more holistic approach of analyzing the spell is better. This is the reason every problem is not solved by a mathematician. There's a lot more complexity in most issues that can be covered by simple equations and estimates. But your point of selection bias is also fair. This is why I brought some raw calculations to the table.
My calculations were a simple baseline to show that's it's neither worthless nor over powered. I made many assumptions and ignored other factors.
At the end of the day, what matters are what build you want to create, and the fantasy you want to tell. If you don't plan to spam eldritch blast, hex may not be as good of a choice for you at higher levels, ect. Personally, I usually don't play an eldritch blast spammer when I play warlock, even if it may be mathematically optimal.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
Co-sign to this. I'm playing two extremely different warlocks right now, and haven't taken hex yet with either -- there always seem to be more interesting/thematic spell options
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Quote from Stoutstein >>
Aye. If anything I strongly advocate for players to avoid the EB spamming trap for locks. It's one of the most interesting and flexible casters that for some reason gets memed as the boring cantrip spammer.
Agreed, though I'll say that those who criticize the warlock blaster as boring are often the ones itching to swing their weapon of choice; every round and as often as allowed. I don't find EB as option #1 boring at all. In fact, my warlock can deal as much DPR as anyone in our group. It what the class does really well. I found at about level 6 that Hex just seemed less and less worth the spell slot and concentration. FWIW; our combats tend to last three rounds generally.
I’m personally a hugebig fan of darkness and Devil’s Sight as a combo for Warlocks.
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I think the point is, DPR isn't the only thing the class can do really well. And no, those of us taking another path aren't just subbing in Hexblade or Genie weapon DPR for eldritch blast DPR
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh there are a wealth of options a warlock can have; its one of the most flexible classes to shape into whatever you want. I just don't subscribe to some silly notion that if you have a solid attack option as your primary option, it makes a build boring. To get this back to the OP's topic, I'd argue using Hex would potentially limit your warlock options. It will make you really want to keep that spell running as long as possible.
Me too, I just take hex with Fey Touched. As it is, situationally speaking, a good spell.One I use a lot longer than shatter or even invisibility. Now I'm playing an Arch Fey, I won't touch hex and will go for Imp Invisibility as my concentration spell. And the one time I played a Celestial I was the de facto cleric/healer, as the Druid didn't want to, of the party so didn't take Hex.