I know this has been beaten like a dead horse but I just wanted to help keep in the light the concept of online gaming (Virtual Table Top) via dndbeyond. We love this site and when not in a state of "shelter in place" (Im in Washington state) we do use this wonderful site to run our tabletop games. But as more and more of us are turning to online either through Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds I always wish that the crew of dndbeyond would set up their own program. As DMs, and some players, we dump a lot of money for digital content (same price as physical) and it always sucks when we have to dump the exact SAME amount into content for places like Roll20 just to play.
Long story short as a community I know we would support you guys in the development and use of a DnDBeyond Virtual Tabletop system. Im sure Im not alone in this.
Related to this, I get a little confused as to what the endgame goal of DNDB is. It seems to be heading toward a VTT platform but stopping just shy of it and I cannot find an official roadmap that mentions anything about a VTT platform. Like the OP, though, I love the DNDB platform. The character shets are better than any other VTT platform out there, as is the sourcebook integration. To be able to hook this directly into a VTT platform would be ideal.
Besides that, it is ridiculous to expect us to pay 3 times to have three copies of the same sourcebook on three different platforms for the sole reason that none of them have the combined features of all of them. Why is it not possible to transfer digital licensing to different compendium platforms? (i.e. Provide an API whereby third-party VTT platforms can import material licensed on DNDB, the official D&D platform.)
I paid enough on this platform to have my player sourcebooks available for character building and tracking but I am hesitant to purchase any more because I have no idea if they will be useful to me as I have no idea which platform I will need them for. (I always buy the print version but I hold-back on digital.) So, I only buy what I need when I need it and where I need it. If this were not the case, I would not hesitate to purchase the full suite of sourcebooks on DNDB today! :-) I would do so even if I knew that a VTT platform was in the works for DNDB but since I may find my content orphaned on a little-used platform, I will not spend my money until I have to.
My apologies for the griping but, with the shelter-in-place lifestyle the status quo for the time-being, these issues really do become more salient. A lot of us who are still healthy would love to while away some spare time playing! :-)
As for D&D Beyond's endgame, well based on what they've said, their mission statement seems to be to provide the best official toolset they can. This goes beyond a VTT, as they're providing tools for both online and offline play. Also, they appear to be building the tools from the base up; building a foundation in a logical order. For example, they've gone from encounter builder to encounter tracker through iterative design.
As for paying for the content, you have to remember that WotC, D&D Beyond and whatever VTT service provide you have in mind are three different companies; expecting licenses to transfer is basically expecting one or more companies to pay for users to access a different service. You don't need to buy the books on here to play D&D on roll20 if you already own them physically. You don't need to buy the adventures on roll20 to run them there if you own them on D&D Beyond. You can put in the energy to set everything up yourself. If you want the convenience of the digital tools on DDB, or the pre-configured lighting on roll20, well that's convenience that you have to pay for because two different companies have bought the licenses and put in the work to make those conveniences available.
If you consider D&D Beyond a 'little-used platform' then you have the complete right to spend your money elsewhere. But based on how I've personally seen this service grow, and the fac their database has over two point three million characters made, well I think it's getting plenty used.
If you want a guaranteed "we're releasing a VTT next month", you're going to be disappointed. But honestly as someone that uses DDB both for my online play and offline, I can tell you it's invaluable to me without any kind of VTT
Yes, thank you @Davedamon for your considered reply. I had a rather lengthy reply to address some of the points you made in detail but thought it might just be tiresome to bore everyone with. I tend to get overly pedantic and wordy. :-)
Suffice it to say, I do not see why VTT platforms equate selling books with staying in business. They are selling their tool set. They can (and some already do) work on subscription models. The subscription pays for the tool set. There can be two levels of subscriptions: one for the tool set only (for pencil and paper players) and another that lets you integrate your personal Library with that tool set(for the more digitally-immersive players.) Separating the tool set from the Library with an API/License model would allow for greater flexibility to try new platforms, which would increase competition and innovation among VTT platforms because the cost to try those platforms will be far less than the current up-front cost of having to re-purchase all my digital assets to fully experience that platform.
I see no problem with VTT platforms selling digital books to people who do not have them but let the books I purchase follow me. After all, I do not have to repurchase my print books when I want to play in a different venue. (I know that sounds absurd but there really is no difference between the two situations. We are being forced to repurchase our digital books to use them in a different location.) That would be a huge disincentive to game store owners.
I'm pretty sure VTT platforms sell books because it keeps them in business. It draws in users through convenience (pre-setup modules and compendium content) and augments their tools. Businesses are complex and I don't think you can assume the subscriptions alone pay for the toolsets in their entirety.
WotC did the 'subscription to access the books' model for 4th edition and, from what I have heard, it didn't do so well for them, hence their move to licensing content for digital sale rather than subscription. You can see that across all services that offer their products; roll20, fantasy grounds and DDB.
Also, you seem to be assuming D&D Beyond is a VTT-first platform like roll20 of FG. It's not, it's very much an experience-improvement first platform. That's why everything they've released has been designed to work for on and offline play, tools to make a DM or players life easier be it at a physical table or digital.
As for letting the books you purchase 'follow you', it doesn't work that way. You purchased a licenses from company X, company Y isn't going to honour it because they still have to pay the license holder to allow those books to be used on their system. Your comparison to taking your physical books to different venues doesn't really map; there's nothing actually stopping you from using D&D Beyond content on roll20 or fantasy grounds the same way you'd take your physical book from venue to venue. You can reference your character sheet or the rules in another tab just as easy (easier even) as pulling out your book at the table. What you're asking for is the added convenience those services add on their platform, for free, because you've paid another platform money. I can, and do, reference DDB in tab or on a mobile device when I'm using roll20 and when I play physically. There's nothing baring you or I from doing that. But if you want the convenience of features like tool integration, cross linking, or in the case of roll20, charactermancer functionality or pre-made and pre-lit maps, you need to pay the people who added that convenience as that's not included in the WotC license.
While I absolutely support DDB eventually adding VTT capability, keep in mind that when it was first pitched to the public, this wasn't how they envisioned it. The first press releases and interviews emphasized it as a tool set to aid players at DMS at the table, in person to person play. They were at first adamant that they weren't creating a VTT, but a different type of tool. I use DDB almost entirely for in person games. I don't really play digitally, except for one play-by-post. In this time of social distancing I have pitched that we try playing some sessions of our sporadic extended family game by Facetime or the like, but even for that I'm not planning on using virtual tabletop technology: I'm already having to learn enough new web based systems to do my "old" job in our new context; I don't have the energy to learn one "for fun."
"What you're asking for is the added convenience those services add on their platform, for free, because you've paid another platform money."
Not accurate. I am not asking for anything for free. I am asking to pay the VTT for VTT functions and to pay the publisher for the digital content. That's it. In order to accomplish this, the licensing model may have to change but it would not be impossible for a VTT platform to make money while allowing integrated use of a publisher's content via an API. And I do not expect any of it to be free.
Though I was not aware of the "subscription to access the books model" in 4E, it is not what I am talking about. The subscription model would be used by the VTT platform for the VTT tool set, which must be constantly updated and maintained, while the profit-from-digital-content-licensing model would be used by the publisher to sell digital content. VTT platforms could also make money from a markup on selling digital books FROM the publisher- in other words, adding to your portable library as a reseller of the portable digital product rather than selling duplicate copies for the same price as the original. AND, they can make money from selling their own digital content such as pre-made maps, as you mentioned. I mean, there is no shortage of opportunity for VTT platforms to make money- even without selling duplicate copies of digital content at full price.
It's does not have to be a zero-sum game of paying multiple times for digital content versus getting everything for free.
And yes, I am aware that you can still use Roll20 and FG platforms without buying digital content on that platform but, as I described above, it seriously hampers the flexibility of the VTT tool set. You have to manually copy all your items and equipment stats over to your character sheet. You need to manually perform calculations based on Class, Race, and Backgrounds. Etc. etc. Part of what makes these platforms so robust is their integration with the digital content from the source material and being able to streamline the setup of your game as a result.
Hell, even paying a fee to move my content from one platform to another would be preferable to this redundant purchasing model. As it stands now, since DDB does not plan to offer a full-blown VTT experience, why would I buy ANY books through them? Why would I not just buy all my books on one VTT platform and hope I never have to use another platform? That is the most cost-efficient course of action from my perspective. The current approach is just plain oppressive for the consumer. It forces us to bank on one platform serving all our needs in perpetuity or else make redundant investments in digital content. And if the VTT platform we choose eventually goes out of business? There go hundreds of dollars down the drain and we have to buy that content all over again at full price. It makes exploring other platforms too costly and too risky. It makes people avoid DDB as a source for digital content now because they do not yet have a robust set of VTT tools to go along with their digital content- even though they some day might have... There has GOT to be some middle ground between consumers making huge, risky investments to enjoy the convenience of a VTT platform and paying absolutely nothing for that convenience. All I am asking for is some imagination and ingenuity on the part of the content providers and VTT developers to make VTT more accessible.
The people you would need to convince to do things this way are those at Wizards of the Coast, not DDB. DDB—like Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds—is a licensee of Wizards of the Coast.
While it was the case that DDB didn’t originally plan to create a VTT, a virtual tabletop gaming space is now part of their long term roadmap, although I think it will be several years until that happens.
In terms of your (presumably rhetorical) question about why you should buy any content here: it may well be that it doesn’t make sense for you to buy content here. That’s o.k. DDB doesn’t fit everyone’s needs. I wouldn’t want to be buying the content here and with a VTT platform either.
Sounds like you need the Beyond20 Browser extension. https://beyond20.here-for-more.info/ This allows you to use all of your existing source books in DnDBeyond. Players can roll from their sheets and DM's can roll from encounters in DnDBeyond and it is sent to the supported VTT's such as Roll20.
That Beyond20 extension is very slick! This is closer to what I am talking about. It basically allows the digital character assets I purchased on DDB to become portable. More of this, please! :-D
For me personally it comes down to a lot less about necessarily wanting DDB/Fandom to make a VTT, but more that I'd prefer a VTT that uses DDB's content. I have a decent amount of purchased content on Roll20 and FG, but DDB's content consumption and interface is a lot nicer in my opinion. A lot of times I just have tabs open on DDB content that I know I'll be referencing in a session rather than trying to find it in Roll20 or FG.
I've only pledged money towards 1 or 2 crowd sourced campaigns in the past, but I'd definitely hop on a Kickstarter or something to help on board some more devs/designers for a DDB VTT or a customer facing API so we can use DDB content on other VTTs. I know both of those are huge undertakings which is why I wouldn't mind throwing money at it to see it happen. :)
For me personally it comes down to a lot less about necessarily wanting DDB/Fandom to make a VTT, but more that I'd prefer a VTT that uses DDB's content. I have a decent amount of purchased content on Roll20 and FG, but DDB's content consumption and interface is a lot nicer in my opinion. A lot of times I just have tabs open on DDB content that I know I'll be referencing in a session rather than trying to find it in Roll20 or FG.
I've only pledged money towards 1 or 2 crowd sourced campaigns in the past, but I'd definitely hop on board a Kickstarter or something to help on board some more devs/designers for a DDB VTT or a customer facing API so we can use DDB content on other VTTs. I know both of those are huge undertakings which is why I wouldn't mind throwing money at it to see it happen. :)
Throw some money at KaKaRoTo's pateron. He is bridging these gaps with all of the dev work going into Beyond20 and his work on modules for Foundry VTT and hosting for Foundry as well. I think DnDBeyond should be doing this as also and financially support other development efforts until they have their own VTT. As long as I can keep buying content here and using it on other tabletops I won't need to buy content elsewhere.
For me personally it comes down to a lot less about necessarily wanting DDB/Fandom to make a VTT, but more that I'd prefer a VTT that uses DDB's content. I have a decent amount of purchased content on Roll20 and FG, but DDB's content consumption and interface is a lot nicer in my opinion. A lot of times I just have tabs open on DDB content that I know I'll be referencing in a session rather than trying to find it in Roll20 or FG.
I've only pledged money towards 1 or 2 crowd sourced campaigns in the past, but I'd definitely hop on board a Kickstarter or something to help on board some more devs/designers for a DDB VTT or a customer facing API so we can use DDB content on other VTTs. I know both of those are huge undertakings which is why I wouldn't mind throwing money at it to see it happen. :)
Throw some money at KaKaRoTo's pateron. He is bridging these gaps with all of the dev work going into Beyond20 and his work on modules for Foundry VTT and hosting for Foundry as well. I think DnDBeyond should be doing this as also and financially support other development efforts until they have their own VTT. As long as I can keep buying content here and using it on other tabletops I won't need to buy content elsewhere.
Already am, and use Beyond20 on Discord pretty extensively. :)
I'm surprised DDB went with Avrae over Beyond20. I still haven't been able to get a single one of my players to use anything other than !roll XdX without holding their hand, and helping them with commands, essentially ruining pacing while trying to use Avrae. Avrae has a ton of awesome features (Aliasing is amazing for homebrew), but it feels like they're moving the project in the opposite direction of why I use DDB (Ease of use) in the first place when it comes to consuming said features. I'm a dev by trade, and the last thing I want is another required API documentation to reference while trying to have fun outside of work. :P
I have no idea why anyone would want a VTT out of DDB. This whole toolset is designed for slick, intuitive character tracking and Stuff Lookup, at which it excels. I've never met a VTT tool I did not vehemently despise for being obtuse, awkward, and ridiculously overpriced, Roll20 included. Every move DDB makes towards VTT functionality is just more of the same - obtuse, awkward, and bad. Unlike the core tool itself, which is the only reason I can manage online games at all.
Get a basic dice-rolling Discord bot - not Avrae, which is ******* awful - and use the power of your imagination. Save mucking about for twenty years to get one basic map ready on Roll20 for key epic fights, and otherwise just play.
As for D&D Beyond's endgame, well based on what they've said, their mission statement seems to be to provide the best official toolset they can. This goes beyond a VTT, as they're providing tools for both online and offline play. Also, they appear to be building the tools from the base up; building a foundation in a logical order. For example, they've gone from encounter builder to encounter tracker through iterative design.
As for paying for the content, you have to remember that WotC, D&D Beyond and whatever VTT service provide you have in mind are three different companies; expecting licenses to transfer is basically expecting one or more companies to pay for users to access a different service. You don't need to buy the books on here to play D&D on roll20 if you already own them physically. You don't need to buy the adventures on roll20 to run them there if you own them on D&D Beyond. You can put in the energy to set everything up yourself. If you want the convenience of the digital tools on DDB, or the pre-configured lighting on roll20, well that's convenience that you have to pay for because two different companies have bought the licenses and put in the work to make those conveniences available.
If you consider D&D Beyond a 'little-used platform' then you have the complete right to spend your money elsewhere. But based on how I've personally seen this service grow, and the fac their database has over two point three million characters made, well I think it's getting plenty used.
If you want a guaranteed "we're releasing a VTT next month", you're going to be disappointed. But honestly as someone that uses DDB both for my online play and offline, I can tell you it's invaluable to me without any kind of VTT
Thanks for the roadmap sorry it’s taken me so long to respond as things have been busy! I understand the licensing situation I was just wishing things out loud!
Some people like the concept of roll20 my issue with it and the other VVT is that the creators made them to be the very opposite of intuitive for a DM. The controls are just gods awful. I’m no program designer otherwise I’d design my own but still. I personally love the set up of DDB and feel like it would maximize those of us who have invested heavily in this platform to be able to run a more immersive online dnd experience through a company we enjoy rather than some where else.
Never hurts to ask or to feel out the communities opinion.
Some people like the concept of roll20 my issue with it and the other VVT is that the creators made them to be the very opposite of intuitive for a DM. The controls are just gods awful. I’m no program designer otherwise I’d design my own but still. I personally love the set up of DDB and feel like it would maximize those of us who have invested heavily in this platform to be able to run a more immersive online dnd experience through a company we enjoy rather than some where else.
Never hurts to ask or to feel out the communities opinion.
I totally agree with your assessment of many VTTs. I do find that Roll20, while probably being the most flexible at this time, is definitely non-intuitive, unless you are a programmer. One can almost see the database/forms/XML mindset in the UI. So far, IMO, Foundry VTT looks to be the most promising in terms of having the most intuitive UI and slickest interface but I have not delved too deeply yet. And DDB definitely has the best content/character sheet integration.
My main obstacle to investing effort into learning any new VTT is the fact that, to take advantage of all the bells and whistles incorporated into any VTT, one has to re-purchase content. There should be some sort of consortium of VTT and RPG developers that can agree upon an open framework for distributing and incorporating each other's content. Every provider of content and tools gets their share and every player gets to play with the content they have already purchased, wherever they want, whenever they want. If I want to stop using Roll20 and use Foundry instead, I should be able to stop paying Roll20 and start paying Foundry without having to fork-over another $100+ for the base player content (Players Handbook, Swordcoast Adventurer's Guide, Xanathar's Guide to Everything, etc.) which I presume ultimately goes back to WotC.
Kakaroto's Beyond20 Extension for Chrome is a great example of a step in that direction.
My groups have all been using DDB for years now and we have ALL the content there. Since the “social distancing era” I finally ended up getting a Roll20 and Dungeon Fog subscription so we could have a better online experience than just TotM. Was a pretty steep learning curve but am starting to really like as do the players.
Ideally I would LOVE an integrated VTT in DDB. The idea of having Zoom/Discord, Roll20, DDB all up is a pain. Its definitely time consuming having to build out the VTT experience myself when I have all the content already electronic in DDB. And having everything available in one app, ideally web based would be ideal. I want the book, DDB and VYY but I don’t want to pay for the same content 3 times. Already paying for the exact same content for the books and DDN and that sucks.
When we get back to our table games it won’t be so much of an issue but one positive is we now have the virtual experience available to us. Just wish it was with one company/platform.
What I see as the best/fairest model for players would be if the digital content of the source books could have a licensing agreement where I could purchase the hard cover book AND the digital content from WotC (say 20% more than just the books). And that digital content was open sourced so it could be loaded in any 3 party VTT (Roll20, FC etc.). The digital content should be platform independent and for the same purchase should be available from wit DDB and any VTT. You could then subscribe/purchase to be able to load that content, get the tokens, dynamic lighting for any adventure. Probably not enough money if that licensing model for the VTT vendors. Maybe DDB could buy a VTT and then WotC could buy DDB and we could have a one stop shop.
Hello fellow Washingtonian. Thank you for the note above. I feel the same way. I am new to DnD and Dm-ing and I found it very confusing that I spent $500+ for digital content and I have to reload all the information into something else in order to have the VTT option for the players.
-Dragara
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
–Zelena Dragara
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I know this has been beaten like a dead horse but I just wanted to help keep in the light the concept of online gaming (Virtual Table Top) via dndbeyond. We love this site and when not in a state of "shelter in place" (Im in Washington state) we do use this wonderful site to run our tabletop games. But as more and more of us are turning to online either through Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds I always wish that the crew of dndbeyond would set up their own program. As DMs, and some players, we dump a lot of money for digital content (same price as physical) and it always sucks when we have to dump the exact SAME amount into content for places like Roll20 just to play.
Long story short as a community I know we would support you guys in the development and use of a DnDBeyond Virtual Tabletop system. Im sure Im not alone in this.
- Doomsday Bunker DM
Related to this, I get a little confused as to what the endgame goal of DNDB is. It seems to be heading toward a VTT platform but stopping just shy of it and I cannot find an official roadmap that mentions anything about a VTT platform. Like the OP, though, I love the DNDB platform. The character shets are better than any other VTT platform out there, as is the sourcebook integration. To be able to hook this directly into a VTT platform would be ideal.
Besides that, it is ridiculous to expect us to pay 3 times to have three copies of the same sourcebook on three different platforms for the sole reason that none of them have the combined features of all of them. Why is it not possible to transfer digital licensing to different compendium platforms? (i.e. Provide an API whereby third-party VTT platforms can import material licensed on DNDB, the official D&D platform.)
I paid enough on this platform to have my player sourcebooks available for character building and tracking but I am hesitant to purchase any more because I have no idea if they will be useful to me as I have no idea which platform I will need them for. (I always buy the print version but I hold-back on digital.) So, I only buy what I need when I need it and where I need it. If this were not the case, I would not hesitate to purchase the full suite of sourcebooks on DNDB today! :-) I would do so even if I knew that a VTT platform was in the works for DNDB but since I may find my content orphaned on a little-used platform, I will not spend my money until I have to.
My apologies for the griping but, with the shelter-in-place lifestyle the status quo for the time-being, these issues really do become more salient. A lot of us who are still healthy would love to while away some spare time playing! :-)
A virtual tabletop/gameboard is indeed on the roadmap: https://trello.com/c/OdsstvVu/16-virtual-tabletop-gameboard
As for D&D Beyond's endgame, well based on what they've said, their mission statement seems to be to provide the best official toolset they can. This goes beyond a VTT, as they're providing tools for both online and offline play. Also, they appear to be building the tools from the base up; building a foundation in a logical order. For example, they've gone from encounter builder to encounter tracker through iterative design.
As for paying for the content, you have to remember that WotC, D&D Beyond and whatever VTT service provide you have in mind are three different companies; expecting licenses to transfer is basically expecting one or more companies to pay for users to access a different service. You don't need to buy the books on here to play D&D on roll20 if you already own them physically. You don't need to buy the adventures on roll20 to run them there if you own them on D&D Beyond. You can put in the energy to set everything up yourself. If you want the convenience of the digital tools on DDB, or the pre-configured lighting on roll20, well that's convenience that you have to pay for because two different companies have bought the licenses and put in the work to make those conveniences available.
If you consider D&D Beyond a 'little-used platform' then you have the complete right to spend your money elsewhere. But based on how I've personally seen this service grow, and the fac their database has over two point three million characters made, well I think it's getting plenty used.
If you want a guaranteed "we're releasing a VTT next month", you're going to be disappointed. But honestly as someone that uses DDB both for my online play and offline, I can tell you it's invaluable to me without any kind of VTT
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Hey @Davedamon, I appreciate you posting that roadmap. That is insanely helpful.
Yes, thank you @Davedamon for your considered reply. I had a rather lengthy reply to address some of the points you made in detail but thought it might just be tiresome to bore everyone with. I tend to get overly pedantic and wordy. :-)
Suffice it to say, I do not see why VTT platforms equate selling books with staying in business. They are selling their tool set. They can (and some already do) work on subscription models. The subscription pays for the tool set. There can be two levels of subscriptions: one for the tool set only (for pencil and paper players) and another that lets you integrate your personal Library with that tool set(for the more digitally-immersive players.) Separating the tool set from the Library with an API/License model would allow for greater flexibility to try new platforms, which would increase competition and innovation among VTT platforms because the cost to try those platforms will be far less than the current up-front cost of having to re-purchase all my digital assets to fully experience that platform.
I see no problem with VTT platforms selling digital books to people who do not have them but let the books I purchase follow me. After all, I do not have to repurchase my print books when I want to play in a different venue. (I know that sounds absurd but there really is no difference between the two situations. We are being forced to repurchase our digital books to use them in a different location.) That would be a huge disincentive to game store owners.
I'm pretty sure VTT platforms sell books because it keeps them in business. It draws in users through convenience (pre-setup modules and compendium content) and augments their tools. Businesses are complex and I don't think you can assume the subscriptions alone pay for the toolsets in their entirety.
WotC did the 'subscription to access the books' model for 4th edition and, from what I have heard, it didn't do so well for them, hence their move to licensing content for digital sale rather than subscription. You can see that across all services that offer their products; roll20, fantasy grounds and DDB.
Also, you seem to be assuming D&D Beyond is a VTT-first platform like roll20 of FG. It's not, it's very much an experience-improvement first platform. That's why everything they've released has been designed to work for on and offline play, tools to make a DM or players life easier be it at a physical table or digital.
As for letting the books you purchase 'follow you', it doesn't work that way. You purchased a licenses from company X, company Y isn't going to honour it because they still have to pay the license holder to allow those books to be used on their system. Your comparison to taking your physical books to different venues doesn't really map; there's nothing actually stopping you from using D&D Beyond content on roll20 or fantasy grounds the same way you'd take your physical book from venue to venue. You can reference your character sheet or the rules in another tab just as easy (easier even) as pulling out your book at the table. What you're asking for is the added convenience those services add on their platform, for free, because you've paid another platform money. I can, and do, reference DDB in tab or on a mobile device when I'm using roll20 and when I play physically. There's nothing baring you or I from doing that. But if you want the convenience of features like tool integration, cross linking, or in the case of roll20, charactermancer functionality or pre-made and pre-lit maps, you need to pay the people who added that convenience as that's not included in the WotC license.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
While I absolutely support DDB eventually adding VTT capability, keep in mind that when it was first pitched to the public, this wasn't how they envisioned it. The first press releases and interviews emphasized it as a tool set to aid players at DMS at the table, in person to person play. They were at first adamant that they weren't creating a VTT, but a different type of tool. I use DDB almost entirely for in person games. I don't really play digitally, except for one play-by-post. In this time of social distancing I have pitched that we try playing some sessions of our sporadic extended family game by Facetime or the like, but even for that I'm not planning on using virtual tabletop technology: I'm already having to learn enough new web based systems to do my "old" job in our new context; I don't have the energy to learn one "for fun."
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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"What you're asking for is the added convenience those services add on their platform, for free, because you've paid another platform money."
Not accurate. I am not asking for anything for free. I am asking to pay the VTT for VTT functions and to pay the publisher for the digital content. That's it. In order to accomplish this, the licensing model may have to change but it would not be impossible for a VTT platform to make money while allowing integrated use of a publisher's content via an API. And I do not expect any of it to be free.
Though I was not aware of the "subscription to access the books model" in 4E, it is not what I am talking about. The subscription model would be used by the VTT platform for the VTT tool set, which must be constantly updated and maintained, while the profit-from-digital-content-licensing model would be used by the publisher to sell digital content. VTT platforms could also make money from a markup on selling digital books FROM the publisher- in other words, adding to your portable library as a reseller of the portable digital product rather than selling duplicate copies for the same price as the original. AND, they can make money from selling their own digital content such as pre-made maps, as you mentioned. I mean, there is no shortage of opportunity for VTT platforms to make money- even without selling duplicate copies of digital content at full price.
It's does not have to be a zero-sum game of paying multiple times for digital content versus getting everything for free.
And yes, I am aware that you can still use Roll20 and FG platforms without buying digital content on that platform but, as I described above, it seriously hampers the flexibility of the VTT tool set. You have to manually copy all your items and equipment stats over to your character sheet. You need to manually perform calculations based on Class, Race, and Backgrounds. Etc. etc. Part of what makes these platforms so robust is their integration with the digital content from the source material and being able to streamline the setup of your game as a result.
Hell, even paying a fee to move my content from one platform to another would be preferable to this redundant purchasing model. As it stands now, since DDB does not plan to offer a full-blown VTT experience, why would I buy ANY books through them? Why would I not just buy all my books on one VTT platform and hope I never have to use another platform? That is the most cost-efficient course of action from my perspective. The current approach is just plain oppressive for the consumer. It forces us to bank on one platform serving all our needs in perpetuity or else make redundant investments in digital content. And if the VTT platform we choose eventually goes out of business? There go hundreds of dollars down the drain and we have to buy that content all over again at full price. It makes exploring other platforms too costly and too risky. It makes people avoid DDB as a source for digital content now because they do not yet have a robust set of VTT tools to go along with their digital content- even though they some day might have... There has GOT to be some middle ground between consumers making huge, risky investments to enjoy the convenience of a VTT platform and paying absolutely nothing for that convenience. All I am asking for is some imagination and ingenuity on the part of the content providers and VTT developers to make VTT more accessible.
The people you would need to convince to do things this way are those at Wizards of the Coast, not DDB. DDB—like Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds—is a licensee of Wizards of the Coast.
While it was the case that DDB didn’t originally plan to create a VTT, a virtual tabletop gaming space is now part of their long term roadmap, although I think it will be several years until that happens.
In terms of your (presumably rhetorical) question about why you should buy any content here: it may well be that it doesn’t make sense for you to buy content here. That’s o.k. DDB doesn’t fit everyone’s needs. I wouldn’t want to be buying the content here and with a VTT platform either.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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Sounds like you need the Beyond20 Browser extension. https://beyond20.here-for-more.info/ This allows you to use all of your existing source books in DnDBeyond. Players can roll from their sheets and DM's can roll from encounters in DnDBeyond and it is sent to the supported VTT's such as Roll20.
That Beyond20 extension is very slick! This is closer to what I am talking about. It basically allows the digital character assets I purchased on DDB to become portable. More of this, please! :-D
For me personally it comes down to a lot less about necessarily wanting DDB/Fandom to make a VTT, but more that I'd prefer a VTT that uses DDB's content. I have a decent amount of purchased content on Roll20 and FG, but DDB's content consumption and interface is a lot nicer in my opinion. A lot of times I just have tabs open on DDB content that I know I'll be referencing in a session rather than trying to find it in Roll20 or FG.
I've only pledged money towards 1 or 2 crowd sourced campaigns in the past, but I'd definitely hop on a Kickstarter or something to help on board some more devs/designers for a DDB VTT or a customer facing API so we can use DDB content on other VTTs. I know both of those are huge undertakings which is why I wouldn't mind throwing money at it to see it happen. :)
Throw some money at KaKaRoTo's pateron. He is bridging these gaps with all of the dev work going into Beyond20 and his work on modules for Foundry VTT and hosting for Foundry as well. I think DnDBeyond should be doing this as also and financially support other development efforts until they have their own VTT. As long as I can keep buying content here and using it on other tabletops I won't need to buy content elsewhere.
Already am, and use Beyond20 on Discord pretty extensively. :)
I'm surprised DDB went with Avrae over Beyond20. I still haven't been able to get a single one of my players to use anything other than !roll XdX without holding their hand, and helping them with commands, essentially ruining pacing while trying to use Avrae. Avrae has a ton of awesome features (Aliasing is amazing for homebrew), but it feels like they're moving the project in the opposite direction of why I use DDB (Ease of use) in the first place when it comes to consuming said features. I'm a dev by trade, and the last thing I want is another required API documentation to reference while trying to have fun outside of work. :P
I have no idea why anyone would want a VTT out of DDB. This whole toolset is designed for slick, intuitive character tracking and Stuff Lookup, at which it excels. I've never met a VTT tool I did not vehemently despise for being obtuse, awkward, and ridiculously overpriced, Roll20 included. Every move DDB makes towards VTT functionality is just more of the same - obtuse, awkward, and bad. Unlike the core tool itself, which is the only reason I can manage online games at all.
Get a basic dice-rolling Discord bot - not Avrae, which is ******* awful - and use the power of your imagination. Save mucking about for twenty years to get one basic map ready on Roll20 for key epic fights, and otherwise just play.
Please do not contact or message me.
Thanks for the roadmap sorry it’s taken me so long to respond as things have been busy! I understand the licensing situation I was just wishing things out loud!
Some people like the concept of roll20 my issue with it and the other VVT is that the creators made them to be the very opposite of intuitive for a DM. The controls are just gods awful. I’m no program designer otherwise I’d design my own but still. I personally love the set up of DDB and feel like it would maximize those of us who have invested heavily in this platform to be able to run a more immersive online dnd experience through a company we enjoy rather than some where else.
Never hurts to ask or to feel out the communities opinion.
I totally agree with your assessment of many VTTs. I do find that Roll20, while probably being the most flexible at this time, is definitely non-intuitive, unless you are a programmer. One can almost see the database/forms/XML mindset in the UI. So far, IMO, Foundry VTT looks to be the most promising in terms of having the most intuitive UI and slickest interface but I have not delved too deeply yet. And DDB definitely has the best content/character sheet integration.
My main obstacle to investing effort into learning any new VTT is the fact that, to take advantage of all the bells and whistles incorporated into any VTT, one has to re-purchase content. There should be some sort of consortium of VTT and RPG developers that can agree upon an open framework for distributing and incorporating each other's content. Every provider of content and tools gets their share and every player gets to play with the content they have already purchased, wherever they want, whenever they want. If I want to stop using Roll20 and use Foundry instead, I should be able to stop paying Roll20 and start paying Foundry without having to fork-over another $100+ for the base player content (Players Handbook, Swordcoast Adventurer's Guide, Xanathar's Guide to Everything, etc.) which I presume ultimately goes back to WotC.
Kakaroto's Beyond20 Extension for Chrome is a great example of a step in that direction.
My groups have all been using DDB for years now and we have ALL the content there. Since the “social distancing era” I finally ended up getting a Roll20 and Dungeon Fog subscription so we could have a better online experience than just TotM. Was a pretty steep learning curve but am starting to really like as do the players.
Ideally I would LOVE an integrated VTT in DDB. The idea of having Zoom/Discord, Roll20, DDB all up is a pain. Its definitely time consuming having to build out the VTT experience myself when I have all the content already electronic in DDB. And having everything available in one app, ideally web based would be ideal. I want the book, DDB and VYY but I don’t want to pay for the same content 3 times. Already paying for the exact same content for the books and DDN and that sucks.
When we get back to our table games it won’t be so much of an issue but one positive is we now have the virtual experience available to us. Just wish it was with one company/platform.
What I see as the best/fairest model for players would be if the digital content of the source books could have a licensing agreement where I could purchase the hard cover book AND the digital content from WotC (say 20% more than just the books). And that digital content was open sourced so it could be loaded in any 3 party VTT (Roll20, FC etc.). The digital content should be platform independent and for the same purchase should be available from wit DDB and any VTT. You could then subscribe/purchase to be able to load that content, get the tokens, dynamic lighting for any adventure. Probably not enough money if that licensing model for the VTT vendors. Maybe DDB could buy a VTT and then WotC could buy DDB and we could have a one stop shop.
Hello fellow Washingtonian. Thank you for the note above. I feel the same way. I am new to DnD and Dm-ing and I found it very confusing that I spent $500+ for digital content and I have to reload all the information into something else in order to have the VTT option for the players.
-Dragara
–Zelena Dragara